General Debate 4 October 2011

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bereal

Scott Chris , your smugometer is always redlining. Thats a given.
Even when you step on your prick and fall flat on your face you hop back up
with your smugometer still on maxed out. Thats just your personality.
However.
What causes you to make the ludicrous statement that New Zealand is a country
with a huge inferiority complex ?
Surely you must have some reasons for such a statement.
What are they ?
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October 4, 2011 5:13pm
Scott Chris

Bereal – “What causes you to make the ludicrous statement that New Zealand is a country with a huge inferiority complex ?”

Just an observation. If you watch the behaviour of a pesky younger brother towards an older brother, then I think this sums up our relationship with the Aussis. We pester, they ignore, but really we’re jealous of them, cause they kick our ass at most things.

Same relationship exists between Canadians and Americans, between the Aussis and Americans and between the British and the Americans.

On a lesser scale you see it between Jafas and the rest of New Zealand.
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October 4, 2011 5:31pm
Griff

Many loose site of the fact that one of top three best places in the world to live is

New Zealand !!!

So we are not doing bad at all in fact we all should be proud

And Lee01 That includes semi feudal religious country’s Living a traditional theological led life. Like Afghanistan parts of Pakistan etc.
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October 4, 2011 5:44pm
Scott Chris

Griff – “Many loose site of the fact that one of top three best places in the world to live is….New Zealand”

Yup, and Australia is a great place to live too. Personally, I rather like the Aussis.

Can’t stand the fucking Chatham Islanders though. Fucking sheep shaggers.
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October 4, 2011 6:00pm
Rodders

If a man can fall flat on his face after stepping on his prick, he probably belongs in the Guinness Records Book.
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October 4, 2011 6:31pm
Lee01

Weihana,

“However, you are correct to say that science doesn’t help us discover a transcendent moral order because the simple fact is there is no such thing. The concept is nonsense.”

Prove it. I can marshall a ton of evidence to show that there is, I bet all you can marshall on the subject is mere unsupported opinion.

“I have no problem admitting I don’t understand the Bible and that I have no interest in doing so.”

Which is why you have no right to comment on what it says or does not say. If you DID understand it you would not make facile comments like this “There is certainly no reason to believe that the outlandish claims about our origins and the nature of the Universe are at all accurate. Indeed most of these claims have already been thoroughly debunked”

Except it does not say what you think it does. Its not mainstream Christians re-interpreting it as you claim, we are merely interpreting it as we always have done. Bot young earth creationism and your rejection of it are borne of the ignorace and superficial literalism of the modern world.

But ignorance is bliss eh?

“little more than the dying gasps for air of a primitive superstition”

Christianity is growing faster than ever. Tens of thousands become new Christians every day in Africa and Asia.

What IS dying and gasping for breath is the ever dwindlling band of secular atheist who’s ideology has failed to win over anymore than a small group of urban latte liberals.
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October 4, 2011 6:37pm
nasska

Rodders

At a minimum! Somehow I feel that Scott Chris will have a screen shot of this page…should be really peachy for his ego if he ever does have a bad hair day.
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October 4, 2011 6:37pm
Pauleastbay

Anderton has gone, good bye to the most loathsome MP in my memory, not even the drunken dwarf stooped to using his family for politcal gain.

He started out at the lofty low of being a school teacher and became a politician, a steady slide of mediocrity- now hopefully to total obscurity
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October 4, 2011 6:39pm
Rodders

nasska 😀
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October 4, 2011 6:39pm
Lee01

Three excellent articles by Paleo-libertarian Ilana Mercer.

Mobocracy Vs. Monarchy.

http://www.ilanamercer.com/phprunner/public_article_list_view.php?editid1=602

Sacrificing Kids To PC Pietism

http://www.ilanamercer.com/phprunner/public_article_list_view.php?editid1=607

The “Moronizing” Of Modern Culture

http://www.ilanamercer.com/phprunner/public_article_list_view.php?editid1=573
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October 4, 2011 6:42pm
thedavincimode

FFS. Day in, day out, some prick always has to go and mention the Jewish play.
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October 4, 2011 6:49pm
Lee01

“You are entirely right to emphasize the cult of self-love as one of the worst flaws of modernity in the free societies. You are right that experience, character and the imperative of hierarchy are denigrated or neglected. Modernity has spawned a cult of the self, of which Rousseau, especially, was a founding club-member. The cult is also strangely intertwined with intellectual and moral relativism, which serves to cover up the empty education most people receive. Burke would have identified the schooling our young people get, the moral relativism which they are taught, as our central problem. The relativism of school and college involves a moronizing dialectic between soulless instruction and the grubby people making vast fortunes from popular culture. The idea has taken hold that everything is a swindle, that all hierarchies are based on power and only power and that there is no such thing as excellence.”

Dennis O’Keeffe: Professor of Sociology at the University of Buckingham, and Senior Research Fellow at the Institute of Economic Affairs
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October 4, 2011 6:51pm
Lee01

Compulsory Education: An Oxymoron of Modernity. By Professor Denis O’Keefe :

http://www.thedegree.org/educn036.pdf
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October 4, 2011 6:55pm
nasska

And as the laptop is shut down, the theological books shelved for another day & the library doors close behind the madman from Dunedin Kiwiblog reverts to a semblance of its former self….BC.
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October 4, 2011 7:00pm
Pauleastbay

The “Moronizing” Of Modern Culture………………

Well ,Lee reading your nonsense I can safely say that it has occurred in spades.
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October 4, 2011 7:01pm
Scott Chris

Well, to be honest, mine’s a bit on the small size compared to the claimed national average of 7 inches.

Got nothing on this walrus though:

VIEWER DISCRETION ADVISED

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ros73m7xBRA
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October 4, 2011 7:01pm
Rodders

Evening Scott.
Too much information! 🙂
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October 4, 2011 7:03pm
Scott Chris

Evening Rodders. Have you heard this one?

One Saturday night, Brian Tamaki’s cock went missing. So his wife urged him to make an announcement the next morning during Mass. Brian reluctantly agreed.

The following morning came and just after communion, he cleared his throat and asked the congregation, “Has anybody got a cock?”

All the men stood up.

“No, no,” he said, “that wasn’t what I meant. Has anybody seen a cock?”

All the women stood up.

“No, no,” he said, “that wasn’t what I meant. Has anybody seen a cock that doesn’t belong to them?”

Half the women stood up.

“No, no,” he said, “that wasn’t what I meant. Has anybody seen MY cock?”

Three altar boys, two nuns and a goat stood up.
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October 4, 2011 7:18pm
Rodders

😀
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October 4, 2011 7:22pm
Scott Chris

Bereal was walking along the beach when he spotted a magic lamp. Much to his surprise, a genie flew out. “Oh master,” it declaimed, “your wish is my command.”

Great, thought Bereal, his chance had finally come! “Genie,” he commanded, “give me a cock I could trip over!”
Whereupon both his legs fell off.
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October 4, 2011 7:34pm
nasska

Top 13 Good Things About Hell

13. None of that annoying check-in procedure like with St. Peter.

12. Due to recent health code changes, vats of boiling brimstone have been replaced by low-cholesterol canola oil.

11. Plenty of legal help available for filing “wrongful death” lawsuit.

10. Newly passed law: Three strikes and you’re back in South Auckland.

9. Satan’s confused attempts to torture masochists can be highly entertaining.

8. Free prostate checks and PAP smears administered daily!

7. Prizes awarded for best crank phone calls to God.

6. Everywhere you look, there’s a smoking section!

5. Big step up from Otara.

4. Now that you’ve followed her advice, you just might get that date with Judith Collins
(Well we had to give Whaleoil a glimmer of hope).

3. Saturday night WWF tag-team bout between Genghis Khan, Vlad the Impaler, and Gerry Brownlee.

2. Fortune to be made on “Welcome, Trevor Mallard” t-shirts.

1. Lee01 was right all along & he’s buggered off to Heaven to bore everyone shitless.
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October 4, 2011 7:39pm
nasska

Amanda Knox has been freed. She was asked on leaving the courts what the first thing is that she’ll do with her freedom.

“I’d kill for some sex” she replied.
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October 4, 2011 8:00pm
Griff

HEAVEN IS HOTTER THAN HELL

The temperature of Heaven can be rather accurately computed. Our
authority is Isaiah 30:26, “Moreover, the light of the Moon shall be as
the light of the Sun and the light of the Sun shall be sevenfold, as
the light of seven days.” Thus Heaven receives from the Moon as much
radiation as we do from the Sun, and in addition 7*7 (49) times as much
as the Earth does from the Sun, or 50 times in all. The light we
receive from the Moon is one 1/10,000 of the light we receive from the
Sun, so we can ignore that … The radiation falling on Heaven will
heat it to the point where the heat lost by radiation is just equal to
the heat received by radiation, i.e., Heaven loses 50 times as much
heat as the Earth by radiation. Using the Stefan-Boltzmann law for
radiation, (H/E)^4 = 50, where E is the absolute temperature of the
earth (300K), gives H as 798K (525C). The exact temperature of Hell
cannot be computed … [However] Revelations 21:8 says “But the
fearful, and unbelieving … shall have their part in the lake which
burneth with fire and brimstone.” A lake of molten brimstone means
that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, 444.6C. We
have, then, that Heaven, at 525C is hotter than Hell at 445C.
— From “Applied Optics” vol. 11, A14, 1972
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October 4, 2011 8:08pm
Rodders

nasska @7pm – Lee01 is from Dunedin?. He’s not connected to Matt & Madeleine who used to post here, is he?
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October 4, 2011 8:08pm
nasska

Rodders

I don’t know of any connection he has to them….for that matter I don’t know of any connection he has to the real world.
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October 4, 2011 8:15pm
Rodders

Although he manages ok for a 10 year old 😉
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October 4, 2011 8:23pm
Scott Chris

The barman says, “We don’t serve neutrinos around here!”
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October 4, 2011 8:24pm
Scott Chris

A neutrino walks into a bar.
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October 4, 2011 8:25pm
Andrei

Tunnel of Death
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October 4, 2011 8:31pm
nasska

Rodders

From what little I’ve read from the coot’s wafflings he’s in his sixties, married, a pisshead & going by his ‘traditional’ approach to everything is probably a fully paid up member of ‘wife beaters anonymous’. Discovered God about 25 years ago & is studying for some theological degree in Dunedin.

With this background I would presume he is to shortly embark on a career in professional God bothering. Given a choice of his preaching & guaranteed entry to hell I would think that Lucifer will do good business soon.
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October 4, 2011 8:32pm
Griff

The Humane Society has placed up for adoption a lovable cat that was recently removed from the laboratory of a noted physicist. The animal was abused repeatedly, having been exposed to poisonous gas and also being placed in close roximity to radio activity. Cruel experiments like this can not be tolerated. The owner has been charged with numerous counts of animal cruelty. Dr. Schrodinger’s cat is recovering nicely, however.

Mrs. Schroedinger to Mr. Schroedinger: What the hell did you do to the cat?
It looks half dead!

There is nothing wrong with the Schroedinger’s Cat experiment! You aren’t actually killing the cat until you measure it… When the Humane Society comes up and looks into your box, you can rest assured that the cat’s death is their fault…

Schroedinger’s Vet: Specializing in gassed cats and monkeys with
Carpal-tunnel syndrome.

Take one ordinary cat, one large box, a particle detector, a radiation source, a bottle of cyanide gas. Hook up the detector so that if it detects a particle from the radiation source, it will open the cyanide gas. Set it up inside the box in such a way that there will be a 50% probability of a particle being detected from the radiation source within a five minute period. Add the cat to the box.

Theory says that the cat will enter a quantum state where it is 50% alive and 50% dead until the experimenter looks inside the box. However, reality teaches us that the severly pissed off cat cat WILL escape the box well before the 5 minutes are up, attack the experimenter and depart just in time for the severly lacerated experimenter to watch the hammer decend on
the cyanide bottle one inch from his nose.
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October 4, 2011 8:32pm
Rodders

nasska 😀
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October 4, 2011 8:35pm
nasska

One for Scott Chris

The teacher said, “Let’s begin by reviewing some American history. Who said ‘Give me Liberty , or give me Death’?”
She saw a sea of blank faces, except for Little Hodiaki a bright foreign exchange student from Japan, who had his hand up: ‘Patrick Henry, 1775’, he said.
‘Very good!’
Who said, ‘Government of the People, by the People, for the People, shall not perish from the Earth?’
Again, no response except from Little Hodiaki, ‘Abraham Lincoln, 1863’.
‘Excellent!’, said the teacher continuing, ‘let’s try one a bit more difficult…’
Who said, ‘Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?’
Once again, Hodiaki’s was the only hand in the air and he said: ‘John F. Kennedy, 1961’.
The teacher snapped at the class, ‘Class, you should be ashamed of yourselves, Little Hodiaki isn’t from this country and he knows more about our history than you do.’
She heard a loud whisper: ‘F . . k the Japs,’
‘Who said that? I want to know right now!’ she angrily demanded.
Little Hodiaki put his hand up, ‘General MacArthur, 1945.’
At that point, a student in the back said, ‘I’m gonna puke.’
The teacher glared around and asks, ‘All right! Now who said that!?’
Again, Little Hodiaki said, ‘George Bush to the Japanese Prime Minister, 1991.’
Now furious, another student yelled, ‘Oh yeah? Suck this!’
Little Hodiaki jumped out of his chair waving his hand and shouted to the teacher, ‘Bill Clinton, to Monica Lewinsky, 1997!’
Now with almost mob hysteria someone said, ‘You little shit. If you say anything else, I’ll kill you.’
Little Hodiaki frantically yelled at the top of his voice, “Michael Jackson to the child witness testifying against him, 2004.’
The teacher fainted.
As the class gathered around the teacher on the floor, someone said, ‘Oh shit, We’re screwed!’
Little Hodiaki said quietly, ‘The New Zealand Warriors, 2011.’
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October 4, 2011 8:39pm
Rodders

Speaking of Dunedin, I see that Pete Hodgson has given his valedictory. That must have been a barrel of laughs.

http://inthehouse.co.nz/taxonomy/term/985
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October 4, 2011 8:40pm
Scott Chris

lol nasska, you’re in form tonight. Actually, I was very happy with the Warriors 2011 season.
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October 4, 2011 8:55pm
reid

Interesting extrapolation of where China may be in 2030: i.e. since between 1990 and 2010:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/02/china-becomes-an-urban-nation

+

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM_JTIMc6SI&feature=feedrec_grec_index
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October 4, 2011 9:13pm
Weihana

# Lee01 (1,162) Says:
October 4th, 2011 at 6:37 pm

Weihana,

“However, you are correct to say that science doesn’t help us discover a transcendent moral order because the simple fact is there is no such thing. The concept is nonsense.”

Prove it. I can marshall a ton of evidence to show that there is, I bet all you can marshall on the subject is mere unsupported opinion.

———————————————

The craziest conspiracy-theorist whack-job can gather a “ton” of evidence to support anything they like. But that doesn’t mean it stands up to scrutiny. Moreover, a “ton” of evidence isn’t even required, just a sensible argument that addresses the “is-ought” problem identified by Hume. Unless you can solve this problem then every moral statement is derived from subjective value judgments. The only conceivable way I can think of that the problem could be avoided is if one argues that the subjective value judgments of God are of a special class given that he/she/it is God. But even if such an argument were accepted you would still have to prove that such a thing exists, which you can’t as no such evidence exists.

———————————————

“I have no problem admitting I don’t understand the Bible and that I have no interest in doing so.”

Which is why you have no right to comment on what it says or does not say.

———————————————

I have read enough of the Bible to know it’s drivel. One doesn’t need to eat shit in order to know it tastes bad. And if I take one bite and notice it tastes like shit I don’t need to continue eating to make sure the entire turd tastes like shit as well.

———————————————

If you DID understand it you would not make facile comments like this “There is certainly no reason to believe that the outlandish claims about our origins and the nature of the Universe are at all accurate. Indeed most of these claims have already been thoroughly debunked”

Except it does not say what you think it does. Its not mainstream Christians re-interpreting it as you claim, we are merely interpreting it as we always have done. Bot young earth creationism and your rejection of it are borne of the ignorace and superficial literalism of the modern world.

But ignorance is bliss eh?

———————————————

The Bible says what it says. You can invent any secondary meaning you like but that is YOUR invention. The Book of Genesis is quite clear: God created man in his image. Well actually no, that is bullshit because we now know that man evolved from lower life forms. Your protestations of so-called “superficial literalism” is nothing more than a feeble attempt to try and portray the Bible as saying something other than what is plainly written.

———————————————

“little more than the dying gasps for air of a primitive superstition”

Christianity is growing faster than ever. Tens of thousands become new Christians every day in Africa and Asia.

What IS dying and gasping for breath is the ever dwindlling band of secular atheist who’s ideology has failed to win over anymore than a small group of urban latte liberals.

———————————————

Africa and Asia. Good hunting grounds for Christianity as Christianity tends to prey on the uneducated and economically disadvantaged. Moreover, people in many of these places actually lack any real religious freedom so it’s hard to say people are true believers when they are forced to be religious at the point of a gun. Indeed non-religious demographics are barely explored in many parts of the world because it’s often a taboo subject due to intolerant religious whack-jobs.

You want a fair competition? Look to the US, look to Europe, look in our own country or Australia. These are places with true freedom and it is increasingly evident that more and more people are either non-religious or outright atheist and the non-religious group appears to be the fastest growing group.

Moreover, many people who identify themselves with religions aren’t even really religious, it’s more of a tradition or family association and not a conscious effort to believe in the superstitious claims made by religion.
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October 4, 2011 9:42pm
reid

+

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UFQGTg4-8s&feature=related
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October 4, 2011 9:51pm
Griff

China how long do you think it has

As a communist state?
As one large state?
As its people taste the good life are they going to start looking for freedom?
China is one huge bubble at present with to many new and unresolved problems.when will they burst?

Will it implode? explode?

Interesting times
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October 4, 2011 9:56pm
reid

And if I take one bite and notice it tastes like shit I don’t need to continue eating to make sure the entire turd tastes like shit as well.

…

But ignorance is bliss eh?

Weihana no doubt you already know that hundreds of millions if not billions of both highly intelligent and highly gullible people have throughout the ages partaken of the Bible and not found it as you describe. Absolutely many have used it for venal disgusting ends completely against its central tenets. Others have explicated it as no other has. Some have truly tried to live its tenets. Others have said they did but didn’t. Others have professed contempt for them, as you do.

Given the behavioural history from countless generations of accepted history re: this book, one seems remarkably cavalier to dismiss it as you do.

Luckily, it’s not very expensive so it’s easy to change your mind about it, in the future.
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October 4, 2011 9:59pm
Courage Wolf

How can you not believe in Christianity? The Cleveland Show explains it perfectly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZmLXXNdYh8
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October 4, 2011 10:13pm
Other_Andy

Weihana

“If you DID understand it you would not make facile comments like this “There is certainly no reason to believe that the outlandish claims about our origins and the nature of the Universe are at all accurate. Indeed most of these claims have already been thoroughly debunked”

When Science Is Wrong: The Threat of ‘Truth’ by Consensus
The potential derailment of Einstein reminds us of our limitations and man’s finite knowledge.

October 4, 2011 – by Walter Hudson

Einstein may have been wrong. New evidence suggests that the speed of light, central to his special theory of relativity, may not be the ultimate speed limit. If the findings hold up, everything we think we know about the inner workings of our universe will need to be revised. This potential discovery reminds us that science is a continual process which is rarely conclusive. That should inform our regard for politicized scientific claims.

A team of researchers at CERN pass the time by shooting muon neutrinos from Switzerland to Italy. While doing so, they noticed something they weren’t expecting.
The particles showed up 60 billionths of a second earlier than they would have done if they had travelled at the speed of light.
This is a tiny fractional change — just 20 parts in a million — but one that occurs consistently.
The team measured the travel times of neutrino bunches some 16,000 times, and have reached a level of statistical significance that in scientific circles would count as a formal discovery.
But the group understands that what are known as “systematic errors” could easily make an erroneous result look like a breaking of the ultimate speed limit.
That has motivated them to publish their measurements.
This is how real science works. Observations lead to hypotheses. Hypotheses are tested through experimentation. Results are scrutinized and duplicated to inform theories. Certainty is rare. Laws are few.

You wouldn’t know that as a causal observer of political discourse. Science is often evoked as an authority rather than an empirical yet uncertain process. Anthropogenic climate change is a “fact” established by “consensus,” its skeptics ranked alongside Holocaust deniers.
The potential derailment of Einstein reminds us of science’s limitations. They are the limitations of man, finite perception and finite knowledge. Our theories are all contingent upon the next unforeseen discovery.

Surely, we ought to respect the scientific process. We live in an objective reality with absolute truths, many of which can be discerned through observation and experimentation.
However, the same humility which informs our respect for science should temper any reverence for its claims. If Einstein’s view of the universe is indeed wrong, it would hardly be the first time a widely held belief was disproven.

Scientists in the 17th century thought a substance called “phlogiston” was an element contained in combustible objects, released upon burning. They believed that the loss of all phlogiston caused a fire to burn out. They thought animals exhaled to dispose of excess phlogiston in their bodies. Eventually, science revealed the real secrets of combustion and respiration, making phlogiston a term of the past.

We continue to unearth ever more intricate layers of complexity where we previously assumed simplicity. The atom was once thought the smallest of particles. The cell was once thought a simple organism. We now know of subatomic particles and understand cells to be remarkably complex with internal systems far more integrated than Darwin could have imagined.

DNA was all but dismissed nearly a century after its discovery. Scientists did not believe such a deceptively simple acid could carry the amount of information necessary for heredity.
Before the advent of “germ theory,” doctors blamed contagious diseases on air quality and fluid “imbalances.”
From the anatomy of the human body to the structure of the solar system, the state of scientific thought at any given moment has always been wrong. Yet, despite acknowledging new theories, each generation assumes that the latest paradigm is unassailably correct.

We roll our eyes at the ignorance of “flat earthers,” while forgetting that finite perception and finite knowledge once deemed their belief sensible. That was the “scientific consensus” of its time.
The point of highlighting the fallibility of science is to engender some healthy skepticism about our modern scientific paradigm.
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October 4, 2011 10:15pm
reid

China how long do you think it has

At least 150-200 years Griff, if the US doesn’t nuke it cause it can’t stand the evening of its empire which is going to be much much much less graceful than GB’s was.

TBC.

Will it implode internally?

Interesting question.

I don’t think it’s possible for laissez faire capitalism to exist juxtaposed with political repression, since the fundamental dynamics are completely opposed.

Capitalism depends on free flow of information, which is why all markets [purportedly] ban insider trading. Political repression [which is defined by one party state/local/everywhere] can’t operate in that.

Nevertheless they manage at the mo IMO cause the people have been getting such massive increments in living standards for so long. What happens when that runs out?

There is no doubt. By 2030 Shanghai will have supplanted NY as the world’s industrial strength financial centre with all the cosmopolitan brains and financial muscle that implies. Whether or not Moscow has supplanted London as No. 2 is also TBC.

It is interesting times Griff. We need to look to the opportunity within the crisis, is my view in these kinds of times.
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October 4, 2011 10:15pm
Griff

How can you not believe in Christianity

Asatru Atenism AyyavazhiBahá’í Faith BönBuddhism Cheondoism Christianity Confucianism Discordianism Druze Ancient Egyptian religion Etruscan religion Hermeticism Hinduism Islam Jainism Judaism LaVeyan Satanism ingayatismMandaeanism
Manichaeism Meher Baba New Age religions Orphism Rastafari movement Ravidassia Samaritanism Scientology hintoSikhism Spiritism Sumerian Swedenborgianism Taoism Tenrikyo Thelema Unification Church Wicca Yazidi Zoroastrianism

Answer your question
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October 4, 2011 10:23pm
reid

Griff just to clarify, who are you asking?
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October 4, 2011 10:36pm
reid

+

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPqZKvk72_4&NR=1
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October 4, 2011 10:41pm
reid

+

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qglJB75QXkg&feature=related
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October 4, 2011 10:50pm
Griff

China You posted a link I read it and those questions came to mind so I asked them.
I would not give the present form of government in china more than a decade. There are tensions similar to Yugoslavia simmering. Once the government runs into problems these may cause effects like the Balkan conflicts.

The growing middle class will seek freedom once they realize that the only thing they do not have is democracy

The christian question was in in answer to Courage Wolf.
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October 4, 2011 10:50pm
MT_Tinman

Griff (912) Says:
October 4th, 2011 at 10:23 pm
How can you not believe in Christianity

Asatru Atenism AyyavazhiBahá’í Faith BönBuddhism Cheondoism Christianity Confucianism Discordianism Druze Ancient Egyptian religion Etruscan religion Hermeticism Hinduism Islam Jainism Judaism LaVeyan Satanism ingayatismMandaeanism
Manichaeism Meher Baba New Age religions Orphism Rastafari movement Ravidassia Samaritanism Scientology hintoSikhism Spiritism Sumerian Swedenborgianism Taoism Tenrikyo Thelema Unification Church Wicca Yazidi Zoroastrianism

Answer your question

After all that you missed mine.

Bugger!
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October 4, 2011 11:05pm
Weihana

# reid (8,517) Says:
October 4th, 2011 at 9:59 pm

“Weihana no doubt you already know that… highly intelligent… people have… partaken of the Bible… Others have professed contempt for them, as you do.”

I do not express contempt for a person simply because they are religious. I express contempt for an idea because I think it lacks merit. But that does not imply every individual who entertains that idea can’t be intelligent or is somehow a bad person and I don’t believe I have suggested that.
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October 4, 2011 11:43pm
Weihana

Other_Andy (440) Says:
October 4th, 2011 at 10:15 pm

We roll our eyes at the ignorance of “flat earthers,” while forgetting that finite perception and finite knowledge once deemed their belief sensible. That was the “scientific consensus” of its time.
The point of highlighting the fallibility of science is to engender some healthy skepticism about our modern scientific paradigm.

—————————

Of course a scientific paradigm is not the same thing as science itself which is designed in such a way as to always question the existing paradigm and the potential discovery of CERN is a demonstration of this basic principle of science.

Indeed no one should criticize flat-earthers for not knowing something that most people didn’t know. If we were around back then we would probably be flat-earthers too. But it is quite another thing to be a flat-earther in a society which has discovered that the Earth is round.
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October 4, 2011 11:55pm
KiwiGreg

“There is no doubt. By 2030 Shanghai will have supplanted NY as the world’s industrial strength financial centre with all the cosmopolitan brains and financial muscle that implies. Whether or not Moscow has supplanted London as No. 2 is also TBC.”

I doubt that very much. Tokyo for instance never got a look in in supassing NY or London and until 2 seconds ago Japan’s economy was way bigger than China’s. Don’t overlook the advantage of ingrained institutions.
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October 5, 2011 7:27am
Manolo

Treat these savage terrorists with kid gloves, will you? A left-wing organisation complains.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10756306
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October 5, 2011 7:36am
Manolo

Two million dollars for ten days? Money wasted on a monstrosity and another Iwi ripoff! (“Plastic waka ready for launch for Rugby World Cup“)

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10756609
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October 5, 2011 7:40am
Lee01

Weihana,

“The craziest conspiracy-theorist whack-job can gather a “ton” of evidence to support anything they like.”

Except we are not talking about a crazy conspiracy theory, but what everyone already knows and always have done.

“Moreover, a “ton” of evidence isn’t even required, just a sensible argument”

In fact all that is necessary is to state the blindingly obvious. You see, you know there is a Transcendednt moral order. So does everyone else posting here who claims they don’t. So does the rest of humanity. And they have done throughout history. The vast majority of people now and throughout time know and has known there is a Transcendent moral order. No argument is needed, anymore than an argument is needed to say the sun exists.

All you need to do is ask yourself, or ask anyone on the street, do a poll if you like, if they think that murder is wrong and should be illegal because its a pragmatic issue; murder is not good for society for example, OR if they think that the fact that the claim that murder is wrong is merely a subjective opinion.

Ask yourself those questions now, and listen to what you gut says. Not the ideological drivel in your head, what your deepest sense says.

And you, and everyone else will answer the same way. Murder is wrong and evil. Full stop. Not because its impractical for society. Not because we subjectivley think so, but because it IS.

Ask yourself this. Is torturing a baby for pleasure evil? Or is that just subjective opinion? Give me a truly honest answer to that question right now. Don’t try to explain it away with all the pseudo-philophical bollocks and intellectual drivel your fond of, answer it honestly.

IS TORTURING A BABY FOR FUN EVIL, OR IS CALLING IT EVIL MERE SUBJECTIVE OPINION?

Deep down inside you know there is a Transcendent moral order. But that unarguable fact gets in the way of the ideological drivel you choose to believe in. Atheism and Liberalism are unnatural and abstract ideologies that do not describe reality. But you, and others, for whatever reasons, choose to believe them, and so you have to lie, to yourself and to others, about the truth that there is a Transcendent moral order, an absolute Right and Wrong, real Good and Evil.

But you know the truth.

“I have read enough of the Bible to know it’s drivel.”

Which is porof of both your intellectual laziness and intellectual cowardice.

Thats like me saying I read a few pages of a book on electronics, but didin’t like it, so now I know all about electronics and can say that its drivel.

Or like reading a parts of a book on basic philosophy and deciding that philosophy is drivel.

In fact, if I REALLY wanted to have an informed opinion, I would read the whole book, AND go to University and do a paper or a degree. Then, and ONLY then, could I claim to have reasonable knowledge on the subject to form an opinion.

You see, thats what I have done in my life. When I wanted to decide about Islam and other religions, I read their holy books, all of them. I went and worshiped with them. I visited mosques and synagogues and talked to people. AND I went to varsity and did a comparitive religion paper.

I did all of that, in order to have an informed opinion.

But generally speaking atheists are intellectually lazy and intellectual cowards. They don’t really want to challenge their foolishness. Their afraid.

So really, you know nothing about the Bible at all. Once again, your just lying to yourself.

“The Bible says what it says. You can invent any secondary meaning you like but that is YOUR invention. The Book of Genesis is quite clear: God created man in his image. Well actually no, that is bullshit because we now know that man evolved from lower life forms”

In fact the “secondary meaning” thats been invented here is yours, not mine. Once again, you display ignorance of what you claim to critique. The Bible says God created humanity in His image, which simply means what it says, that we have the ability to love, choose and reason. Which we DO. Thats not bullshit. The mechanics of evolution do not contradict that, because evolution ALSO says we have the ability to love and reason and choose.

But you are laying over that a secular ideology that blinds you to anything except the drivel in your head.

The problem is not the Bible, the problem is your ideological blindness.

“Africa and Asia. Good hunting grounds for Christianity as Christianity tends to prey on the uneducated and economically disadvantaged. Moreover, people in many of these places actually lack any real religious freedom so it’s hard to say people are true believers when they are forced to be religious at the point of a gun. ”

The Africans and Asians I know are well educated and have theological degrees. Moreover, people in both Africa and Asia are hardly just poor and uneducated. Asians in particular are economically well off and well educated.

Bigoted much?

You see well off and well educated people DO freely choose to be Christians, but your ideological blindness means you have to write all of Asia off as poor and stupid.

That says more about you than them.

And Christian missionaries carry Bibles, not guns. The tens of thousands who become Christians every day do so freely.

What a sad little bigot you are.

“Indeed non-religious demographics are barely explored in many parts of the world”

You know what they would find if they did? That the vast majority of humanity are not gullible enough to fall for the kind of anti-intellectual, morally bankrupt and facile vacuity of Atheism.
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October 5, 2011 9:48am
Weihana

“You see, you know there is a Transcendednt moral order. So does everyone else posting here who claims they don’t. So does the rest of humanity. And they have done throughout history.”

If so, why has humanity condoned the brutality of slavery? Indeed why does the Bible seem to condone it?

Exodus 21:20-21

“20 Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.”

Leviticus 25:44

“‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.”

Obviously these passages are a reflection of the times in which they are written. But where is this transcendent moral order and why couldn’t people plainly see the brutality and evil that is slavery? The fact is that while I have a “feeling” that slavery is abhorrent and wrong, people of a different time and era were conditioned by different social mores which tolerated it.

Lee01 – “IS TORTURING A BABY FOR FUN EVIL, OR IS CALLING IT EVIL MERE SUBJECTIVE OPINION?”

To say such a thing is wrong is ultimately based on a subjective value judgment. Ask a serial killing sociopath if they think such things are wrong. Chances are they don’t and nothing in the Universe, aside from other people, says it is wrong. Morality is a human tool to guide our actions to achieve what we want. I don’t want babies tortured and so I support action which seeks to prevent that. But the Universe itself doesn’t care as is evident by the fact that it permits it to occur.

The fact that you have a “feeling” that certain things are absolutely wrong doesn’t make them so. Feelings are no substitute for reason and logic and the fact that you have appealed to “feelings” is a hilarious demonstration of the weakness and ridiculousness of your argument.
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October 5, 2011 12:51pm
Pete George

Part of or in competition with the #bryceedwardsconspiracy? Whale Oil sees more out of school trouble in Dunedin South.
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October 5, 2011 1:20pm
Lee01

“If so, why has humanity condoned the brutality of slavery? Indeed why does the Bible seem to condone it?”

First, that there is a Transcendent moral order does not mean people are not free to disobey it. Human freedom is a given, and that freedom means we don’t always choose to do what we know to be right.

Second, the Bible does not condone chattell slavery, which is what most mean by the word. The Bible took a horrific institution and radically reformed it. What the God allowed, temporarily for the ancient Hebrews, was temporary indentured servitude.

“To say such a thing is wrong is ultimately based on a subjective value judgment.”

So torturing a baby for fun is not wrong in your philosophy? Its just a lifestyle choice issue?

“Ask a serial killing sociopath if they think such things are wrong.

But we know that such a person is sick in the mind, so your argument fails.

“But the Universe itself doesn’t care as is evident by the fact that it permits it to occur.”

Not at all. This assumes that there is not a higher good that has to be obeyed. In this case, in order for humans to be moral and to love their neighbour, they have to have freedom, which means the freedom to choose to do wrong and evil.

That evil happens is not a good argument that there is no evil.

“The fact that you have a “feeling” that certain things are absolutely wrong doesn’t make them so.”

It may well do. How do you know?

“Feelings are no substitute for reason and logic”

Reason and logic divorced from feeling, conscience and Tradition are not a reliable guide to anything other than self-delusion. The fact that you turned the torture of babies for kicks into a matter of personal taste is proof that your “reason and logic” are nothing more than an excuse for moral bankruptcy, moral cowardice, and vile evil.

“the fact that you have appealed to “feelings” is a hilarious demonstration of the weakness and ridiculousness of your argument.”

I did not merely appealed to feelings, I appealed to conscience.

The fact that in your view being against torturing babies for fun is nothing more than a mere matter of opinion and lifestyle choice is a sad indictment on the weakness and ridiculousness of your argument.
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October 5, 2011 1:54pm
Lee01

So Weihana lets see where your “reason and logic” have taken you in life.

According to you all Asians and Africans are poor stupid and gullible, and torturing babies is a lifestyle choice and a matter of personal taste.

Thankyou for providing such a wonderful example of the irrational, immoral and bigoted stupidity of the average atheist.

GAME. SET. MATCH.
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October 5, 2011 2:01pm
Weihana

Lee01,

“So torturing a baby for fun is not wrong in your philosophy? Its just a lifestyle choice issue?”

It is wrong in *my* philosophy because it is inconsistent with my values. But there is no inherent reason why someone else cannot have different values and therefore they would not reach the same conclusion as me.

My philosophy is that there are no absolute moral truths. There are only objective moral truths which are necessarily context dependent.

“Ask a serial killing sociopath if they think such things are wrong.”

“But we know that such a person is sick in the mind, so your argument fails.”

Their minds are different certainly, but to say they are “sick” implies a value judgment. That is, you are preferring the so-called “normal” human brain to the “abnormal” human brain. But that is merely your subjective preference. Moreover, your preference for “normal” ways of thinking do not change the fact that these people often have no reason to be moral. If, for instance, a person does not value other people and does not even care about what happens to themselves, then there is no logical reason to prevent them from undertaking action we would normally consider immoral – such as killing other people.
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October 5, 2011 2:16pm
Weihana

Lee01,

“The fact that you have a “feeling” that certain things are absolutely wrong doesn’t make them so.”

“It may well do. How do you know?”

Because I can think logically, something you seem incapable of doing. If you were correct that an absolute standard of morality existed then this would be true INDEPENDENT OF your feelings. The point is that your feelings, regardless of whether they are accurate or not, do not make your assertions true. The truth of your assertions cannot be sensibly derived from feelings.

“Reason and logic divorced from feeling, conscience and Tradition are not a reliable guide to anything other than self-delusion.”

Quite the opposite actually. Reason and logic are what allow people to understand their feelings. It’s what enables me to have a sensible interpretation of my feeling that killing babies is wrong by informing me of the precise meaning of that feeling.

“The fact that you turned the torture of babies for kicks into a matter of personal taste is proof that your “reason and logic” are nothing more than an excuse for moral bankruptcy, moral cowardice, and vile evil.”

It isn’t an excuse for anything. I don’t care if a socipathic serial killer has no reason to abide by my moral dictates. My morality is for guiding *my* actions, not his. The lack of an absolute moral standard does not prevent me and like minded people from conducting ourselves in a manner consistent with our values and from imprisoning such a sociopath in order to protect ourselves.
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October 5, 2011 2:29pm
Weihana

Lee01,

“In fact the “secondary meaning” thats been invented here is yours, not mine. Once again, you display ignorance of what you claim to critique. The Bible says God created humanity in His image, which simply means what it says, that we have the ability to love, choose and reason. Which we DO. Thats not bullshit. The mechanics of evolution do not contradict that, because evolution ALSO says we have the ability to love and reason and choose.”

But that does contradict evolution because God did not create man, man EVOLVED from lower life forms. Moreover many of these life forms share the attributes of love, choice and (to a much more limited extent) reason. Also, these attributes appear to have strong evolutionary links as opposed to being created in the image of some supernatural being.

You really are stretching the bounds of credibility in trying to reconcile the Biblical account of creation with what science has discovered. There comes a point when you really should just admit that the Bible got it wrong. It was a mythical story which reflected the beliefs of the time. That is what you would do if you are reasonble person and not a religious crazy person. 🙂
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October 5, 2011 2:37pm
Lee01

Weihana,

Give up. You lost the debate. As soon as torturing little babies becomes nothing more than a matter of personal taste, you have lost any credibility.

Your silly and childish ideology has been exposed for the evil that it is. There is no reason or logic in your arguments, merely the rantings of a sad man who has brainwashed himself into a bankrupt, irrational and infantile ideology utterly divorced from human experience and any sense of human decency.

Seek help.

Repent.
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October 5, 2011 2:38pm
Weihana

Lee01,

“The Africans and Asians I know are well educated and have theological degrees. Moreover, people in both Africa and Asia are hardly just poor and uneducated. Asians in particular are economically well off and well educated.

Bigoted much?”

“According to you all Asians and Africans are poor stupid and gullible”

No I did not say “all”.

It is not bigoted to acknowledge the simple fact that poverty and illiteracy are big problems in Africa and to a lesser extent in Asia as well. If they were as well off as we are then we wouldn’t be flooded with Somalians, Cambodians, Vietnamese etc. etc. trying to migrate here.

That’s not to say that everyone who chooses to be a christian is uneducated or impoverished. But when looking at the big picture it is telling that your hotspots for growth in Christianity are in the more impoverished and illiterate parts of the world. Poverty in particular is a big motivator for people to become Christian. It’s understandable too that people who endure such hardship might find solace in the idea that there is something better for them in the afterlife.
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October 5, 2011 2:55pm
Weihana

Lee01 (1,184) Says:
October 5th, 2011 at 2:38 pm

Weihana,

Give up. You lost the debate.

————————————

No one can ever lose a debate when no rules are established. Whether someone won or lost a debate is simply a matter of opinion and I’m not surprised you think you won. I would think you an odd fellow if you did not think you had won.
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October 5, 2011 3:16pm

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