General Debate 20 October 2011

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DavidC

Better late than never!
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October 20, 2011 9:16am
Inventory2

Surely, this kind of caper could only happen in NZ First:

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2011/10/winston-wont-take-piss.html
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October 20, 2011 9:24am
David Farrar

It was accidentally set for 11 pm tonight!
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October 20, 2011 9:25am
Pete George

Who is occupying Dunedin? A range of individuals and causes. Some genuine idealists. But who is behind it?

The main spokespeople have links to Socialist Aotearoa, NORML, Mana and Greens – Who is Occupying Dunedin?

Is that a common theme around the country? Or is it just random opportunists?
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October 20, 2011 9:28am
Falafulu Fisi

Ron Paul explains free society/free markets and limited government better than any of the GOP candidates. May be John Key and Bill English can take notes of what Mr Paul is saying. What Paul was saying in the debate is the founding principles of the National Party.

Ron Paul GOP CNN

Oh, and it would be good for National Party worshipers here to watch the video too, because I think you’re all confused about what liberty & small government is about. National is no different from Labour.
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October 20, 2011 9:32am
Inventory2

That’s a very good question Pete; should some parties be declaring relevant costs as election expenses?
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October 20, 2011 9:33am
joana

Pete,
I would say local and internationally linked anarchist groups are behind it..An anarchist group in CHCh , called Beyond Resistance, is involved in every protest in the city.
Great news re Robert Spencer coming to Australia.
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October 20, 2011 9:35am
graham

Took another wander through Aotea Square this morning at 6:50. Not much has changed in the last two days (well – not at that time of the morning anyway).

There are still around 50 tents, maybe more – I still would love to know how many of them are occupied though. While the majority of the signs, placards, and banners are still home-made and unprofessional, there are more that at least look to have been printed out on a decent laser printer rather than hand written.

But the general thrust still seems to be anti-rich-prick, anti-establishment, anti-John Key, anti-National, anti-Don Brash.
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October 20, 2011 9:39am
Rick Rowling

Cunliffe says (on RadioNZ) that the Nats should have addressed the underlying economic issues to avoid a downgrade by Moodies.

Which Labour policies would have done that?

Which ones would have made a downgrade more likely?
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October 20, 2011 9:40am
Scott Chris

5.30 Lesbian Kiss On Coro Street Sparks Outcry:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv/5814098/Coro-St-kiss-prompts-complaints

Presumably gays are only allowed to kiss after the kiddies have gone to bed.
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October 20, 2011 9:52am
Brian Smaller

@Scott Chris – these are probably the same people who whinged about the slot time change for that show. Just ignore it.
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October 20, 2011 9:56am
freddos

Who else thought Charles Chauvel’s backbenchers appearance confimed the abrasive dickhead persona that’s been coming through recently?

My favourite bit was when the presenter wanted to ask a question to actual Ohariu voters and there wer only two among the rent-a-crowd.

Also the “Dictator Dunne” sign – just lols.
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October 20, 2011 10:06am
Ed Snack

Joana, bloody odd sort of anarchists, calling for MORE government intervention. More like socialist internationalists I suspect. I wonder if there’s Soros money behind them like there is in the USA. They get a pretty sympathetic press too, wonder why they’re not treated to the same slanted coverage as the the Tea Party gatherings ?

Going by the majority of their rhetoric to date, I reckon the message could be summarized as “give me more more money, now, and take it off the rich pricks who have more than me”.
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October 20, 2011 10:07am
MyNameIsJack

So John key reckons we’re in for another credit downgrade, the third on his watch, and he’s OK with that. Guess he already has his trades in place.

Why does NZ only get these downgrades when national are the govt?

How can they fuck an economy so quickly?
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October 20, 2011 10:13am
Lucia Maria

Scott,

Two women kissing is too overtly sexual and not something I’d want my ten year to accidentally see. Those sorts of things ought to be after 9:30pm.
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October 20, 2011 10:35am
MyNameIsJack

Jesusinatomb, gotta love Xtians.

They don’t care how much myth, lies and deceit they force in to their children, but let 5 seconds of reality intrude and they’re all a flutter with a fit of the vapours.

Women wearing a torture symbol as jewellery is not something anyone should have to see.
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October 20, 2011 10:52am
Scott Chris

Lucia Maria says:- “Two women kissing is too overtly sexual”

Inevitably I Tubed it. (See link below) It looked affectionate and loving to me, but not really all that sexual. You see that kind of thing all the time on the daytime TV.

Some of the dancing on music videos is far more explicit and suggestive, albeit mostly heterosexual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cySnrGEkfaE
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October 20, 2011 10:54am
James Stephenson

Two women kissing is too overtly sexual and not something I’d want my ten year to accidentally see. Those sorts of things ought to be after 9:30pm.

Sheesh, what year is this? “Brookside” got this out of the way in Britain back in 1994 and Corrie is only catching up now…

Anna Friel, eh? Yummy.
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October 20, 2011 11:14am
yesjg

MNIJ why do you have this pathological hatred of Christianity?
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October 20, 2011 11:17am
thedavincimode

yesjg

One can only assume that our great anti-war hero, the man of principle and conviction, suffered an unfortunate intrusion in his underwear after Sunday school one day.
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October 20, 2011 11:25am
MyNameIsJack

yesjg, lucia maria is not a xtian, she is a Roman Catholic – big difference.
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October 20, 2011 11:29am
Scott Chris

thedavincimode says:- ” suffered an unfortunate intrusion in his underwear”

Well as it happens I had a huge crush on my sunday school teacher, but alas, she never intruded in my underwear.
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October 20, 2011 11:41am
yesjg

yesjg, lucia maria is not a xtian, she is a Roman Catholic – big difference.

I’m not a Roman Catholic and in fact I agree that there are major differences between Catholicism and most other Church’s but the fact remains that Catholicism is overwhelmingly the largest branch of Christianity and Catholics in general draw great comfort from their religion. Also for all the faults in the Catholic Church I do tend to subscribe to the belief that the average Priest does more good work in a week that most of us do in a life time. So in my view that’s got to be a good thing.
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October 20, 2011 11:46am
thedavincimode

Oh oh …

… five … four … three …
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October 20, 2011 11:47am
thedavincimode

Scott

I think borker’s problem is that he enjoyed it … but it wasn’t your Sunday school teacher if you get my drift.

He has struggled to cope ever since. Possibly explains the bodybuilding tho’ …
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October 20, 2011 11:50am
Elaycee

graham (86) Says: October 20th, 2011 at 9:39 am: Took another wander through Aotea Square this morning at 6:50. ….. the general thrust still seems to be anti-rich-prick, anti-establishment, anti-John Key, anti-National, anti-Don Brash.”

But not: anti-taxpayer handouts, not anti-benefits, not anti-WFF, not anti-unemployment benefits etc…..

Quelle surprise.
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October 20, 2011 12:20pm
joana

What is happening with the Aratere? Another disaster waiting to happen? Where is Stevo when you want him? How much tax payer money spent so far?
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October 20, 2011 1:43pm
Longknives

Elaycee- They seem to be Anti- Personal Hygiene as well….What a bunch of smelly unemployable no-hopers…
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October 20, 2011 2:16pm
gravedodger

Hey joana I’ll let you in on a little secret.
NZ inc had got shot of the eternal loss maker NZRail till your good mate the history teacher paid $650 million to buy back the whole steaming pile of excrement.
So stfu, it was not Stevo he is just left holding the bloody dead baby.
Of course the financial wizard allowed Toll to keep the only profitable bit, ie the road haulage and freight forwarding ops
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October 20, 2011 3:08pm
Weihana

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/5818998/Australian-Throat-slitting-haka-has-no-place

Sour grapes Australian bemoans Kapa O Pango as it reminds people the “Maoris (sic) once engaged in unspeakable conduct”.

Unspeakable conduct? As opposed to the stolen generations which presumably exemplifies the civility of white men like Paul Sheehan. What a self-righteous pompous arrogant twit. It’s a friggen game FFS.
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October 20, 2011 3:34pm
nasska

We gave the ‘Rena’ topic a good thrashing yesterday & one facet covered the lack of power generation for pumps & heating the HFO. The following photo links give an idea of what the salvos are up against:

http://www.shipwrecklog.com/log/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Salvage5.jpg
http://www.shipwrecklog.com/log/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Salvor1.jpg
http://www.shipwrecklog.com/log/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Salvage6.jpg
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October 20, 2011 4:49pm
Other_Andy

Protest against oil exploration

Protesters climbed trees and roared through wire fence surrounding the Rena response control centre in an effort to have their opposition to deep-sea drilling heard.
About 70 people gathered at the former Foodtown supermarket after a crowd of at least 100 first made their presence known outside Tauranga District Court and on The Strand yesterday.
The group was protesting proposed oil drilling offshore from the East Cape at the Raukumara Basin.
That included chants of: “East Coast, West Coast, coast to coast, we don’t want oil anywhere. Stop deep-sea drilling now.”
The group was made up mostly of Greenpeace and Te Whanau a Apanui iwi members who came together to support fisherman Elvis Teddy, who is charged in connection with protest action.

They all arrived in town on horse, bike or by foot.
Rrrrright…..

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10760345
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October 20, 2011 4:50pm
alex Masterley

nasska,

Thanks for the limks to the pictures.

It gives some idea of the scale of the exercise these blokes are undertaking. I takes my hat off to them.
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October 20, 2011 4:55pm
nasska

alex Masterley

It’s certainly easy to get blase when TV & the papers give us endless pap about what is going on. Seeing some breathless “reporter’ interviewing herself about the fate of a few seagulls doesn’t help us realise what the people charged with sorting out the mess are facing.

Whatever they are paid for their efforts I doubt that it is enough to cover the risks involved.
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October 20, 2011 5:05pm
thedavincimode

nasska

It seems a bit pointless those blokes in the first photo standing around jawboning.

Why don’t they chuck a couple of lines over the side? I understand that its meant to be a pretty good spot.
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October 20, 2011 5:27pm
nasska

thedavincimode

Straight off the hook, in the pan & on the plate…..pre oiled for your convenience.
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October 20, 2011 5:33pm
thedavincimode

… er … was that ship running on extra virgin olive oil …? Or even recycled fish & chip oil ???
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October 20, 2011 5:48pm
Elaycee

Here is a pikkie that the Labour team will just hate…. enjoy! 😛

And well done, Sir Butch.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/league/5823509/Mad-Butchers-museum-officially-opens
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October 20, 2011 5:49pm
nasska

thedavincimode

None of that yuppie cuisine…..just tickle your taste buds with a lightly brined good Baltic crude. Lemon & tartare sauce optional & extra.
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October 20, 2011 5:57pm
thedavincimode

… and perhaps a nice Aussie riesling with some nice hints of kerosene?
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October 20, 2011 6:04pm
thedavincimode

Elaycee

Classic. Owen Glen to boot!

Worthy of a caption contest.

This is bound to send poor old Scott over the edge as well.
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October 20, 2011 6:07pm
nasska

….and your first date with Water Woman is off to a good start.
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October 20, 2011 6:10pm
thedavincimode

… yuk. Just lost my appetite.

Don’t you think that was a bit uncalled for?

Maybe Johnboy might like to practise this recipe.
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October 20, 2011 6:14pm
Elaycee

@thedavincimode (Caption contest) – Can you imagine the look on the face when head grinch sees it in New York?

She’d have a face like a clydesdale eating thistles. Yee Har…. 😛
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October 20, 2011 6:34pm
Scott Chris

Hmm nice pics nasska.

Looks kinda cushy to me. Perhaps those are the evil bosses on this side of the ship. I’m sure one of them is reading that Dan Brown novel, what was it? The Gallileo code or something… whilst blog commenting on his Blackberry.

The poor old workers must be round the other side….
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October 20, 2011 6:34pm
wat dabney

“Several solar energy companies with operations in the United States asked the Obama administration on Wednesday to put duties on imports of solar panels from China”
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/19/us-usa-solar-trade-idUSTRE79I5Q220111019

If the Greens get their way we’ll be forced to hand over our earnings to subsidise their favoured “green” tech companies, then they’ll ask for high import duties to protect same. So we’ll be paying twice, when instead we could buy cheap green tech subsidised by Chinese taxpayers.
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October 20, 2011 6:36pm
thedavincimode

Oh come on Chris. Surely you can do better than that.

Anyway, it seems you got things pumping again out there. What was it like?
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October 20, 2011 6:39pm
thedavincimode

Elaycee

For a minute there, I thought you were about to say: “a face like a clydesdale’s arse”.

Fortunately you didn’t; that would have been highly inappropriate. We don’t need that gratuitous Scott C ad hom around here thankyou VERY much.
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October 20, 2011 6:42pm
wat dabney

More than 2,700 people are dying each year in England and Wales because they cannot afford to keep their homes warm, according to an official study.

The spiralling cost of gas and electricity combined with the impact of green taxes is putting health and lives at risk, researchers found.

The study concluded that green taxes on household power bills are ‘regressive’ and have a disproportionate impact on poorer households.

Green taxes designed to meet a £200billion bill to switch to wind, wave, solar and nuclear power currently add around £100 to annual bills.

However, this figure is set to rise sharply in the next few years and will hit the poor, particularly pensioners on fixed incomes, harder than most.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2050961/Fuel-poverty-caused-3-000-deaths-year-expert-claims-energy-bills-continue-soar.html

Vote Green!
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October 20, 2011 6:49pm
F E Smith

So the review of prosecution services has returned and, surprise, surprise, the recommendation is for minor tweaks only! In fact, the prosecutors are paragons of virtue and efficiency!

New Zealand is indeed fortunate to have a high-quality, independent, criminal prosecution service carried out mainly by Crown Solicitors and Police prosecutors. While the New Zealand system is unique in that it is the only Commonwealth country not to have at least some form of Government-based indictable prosecution service, no evidence was found to suggest that this negatively impacts on the quality, independence or cost of delivery. Given the highly efficient and low-cost nature of the current system, the threshold for change is high. Building on the existing system, which has shown robustness, is the best way to improve outcomes while minimising uncertainty. That is because the system is well known and gradual change will be more likely to retain the confidence of the public and prosecution participants than wholesale change.

Well, what a surprise, eh? The most powerful legal lobby in NZ, the Crown Solicitors, have ensured that they will maintain their ability to get rich from the prosecution of NZers. You think I am wrong? Have a look at the competition for the Crown Solicitor’s warrant in a region when one becomes available- the firms that want nothing to do with criminal work because it doesn’t pay enough suddenly are all wanting to get involved in prosecutions…

One interesting fact that is in the introduction is this

Over the last four years there has been an 18.2% increase in the number of indictable prosecutions. A significant portion of that increase is attributable to an increase in the amount of crime that the Police have successfully detected and that the Courts have committed to trial. It is important to remember that the total

But of course, the increase in the criminal legal aid bill was due to defence lawyers fraudulently ‘gaming’ the system, not because of large increases in indictable cases over the last four years, let alone the last decade. Funny that, how the increase in the legal aid bill and the increase in indictable prosecutions are not related one little bit. We know they aren’t, because Simon Power has told us that defence lawyers are all crooked, causing delays and unnecessary court appearances all to feather their own nest.

But when Crown costs rise, it is instead because the Police are getting so good at bringing people to justice!! Remember, the Police are the ones who generally choose whether to go to jury trial or not- very few crims elect to go from summary to indictable jurisdiction.

But the increases in costs are quite dramatic:

The cost of the PPS has increased by 52.6% between 2005/06 and 2009/10 from $20,988,000 to $32,028,863. Over the same period the cost of Crown Solicitors has increased by 51.1% from $25,934,837 to $39,189,666.

and that is all above board and perfectly okay. But when the government dramatically widens eligibility for legal aid and the police step up summary and indictable proseuctions signficantly, then the resultant increases in defence costs must be because of fraudulent behaviour by the defence bar? Right, got that.

The result? Indictable prosecutions in NZ are and will be undertaken by private firms, while the bulk of the defence work will be undertaken by a government department. Which is the reverse of most jurisdictions around the world.
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October 20, 2011 7:17pm
Pauleastbay

And the Auckland Crown Solicitor has the added burden of deciding when he’ll accept his position on the High Court Bench.

Move to the big smoke FE.
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October 20, 2011 7:23pm
reid

Yes that is rather disappointing FES. So how does this relate to Power’s nascent PPS? Is it a still-birth?
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October 20, 2011 7:23pm
F E Smith

reid,

done like a dog’s dinner, I am afraid. No DPP/CPS for NZ- the private firms prosecuting under Crown Solicitors’ warrants are just too efficient, notwithstanding a 50% increase in costs in 4 years.

You imagine if legal aid had increased by 50% in four years, what the outcry would be, but no, apparently this ain’t the Crown’s fault, those police to blame for getting so good at catching criminals!

Not that the increase in prosecutions could possibly have any effect on an increase in legal aid costs, now. Don’t even think that!

PaulEB,

yeah, one of the ‘traditions’ that I have real trouble with is this habit we have of making the person who holds the Crown Solicitors warrant in a region a High Court judge, just because they inherited it from the last Crown Solicitor. It isn’t a good look. The last Crown Solicitor to go up was Tim Brewer (who is a good bloke, and a former Brigadier in the TF), but he got the Crown Warrant because no-one else in his firm wanted it (then upped and left and formed his own firm, ha ha!).

Auckland is the place to go if you want to do criminal defence work and make a good living, that is true. A lot more private criminal insructions there as well, so less need to accept legal aid.
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October 20, 2011 7:35pm
reid

done like a dog’s dinner, I am afraid.

Damn their hides.

I wonder if any journo will investigate what has happened here.

I certainly hope at least Walrus does. At least if not insightful he’ll be amusing which is the best one can hope for out of this right now.

This has been murdered, it didn’t die by itself. This is, a scandal.
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October 20, 2011 7:38pm
F E Smith

ohhh, this is not the headline that you really want to see if you want to maintain confidence in the police and in the justice system…

Police chiefs ‘authorised undercover police officers to give false evidence in court’
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October 20, 2011 7:38pm
F E Smith

I wonder if any journo will investigate what has happened here.

Oh, that is a great joke, reid!!! I am still laughing!!!!!
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October 20, 2011 7:40pm
reid

But when the government dramatically widens eligibility for legal aid and the police step up summary and indictable proseuctions signficantly, then the resultant increases in defence costs must be because of fraudulent behaviour by the defence bar?

FES, this is because taxpayers like to see results, you see. When someone is acquitted, nothing happens, yet we spent all that money. Therefore this doesn’t generate quite the same warm feeling in our tummies that we get when we see something happen in return for all that money, like a small fine or something.

I’m not sure what the solution is, but there we are.
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October 20, 2011 7:50pm
Pauleastbay

But FE @7.38pm , gives you a provenance that is gold. Bit tougher to do here, . In NZ they would have kicked them both loose on some bullshit technicality so they wouldn’t have had to plead

Love the …none violent organisation…….arrested for disorderly conduct blah blah
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October 20, 2011 7:56pm
nasska

The sexy little housewife was built so well the TV repairman couldn’t keep his eyes off of her. Every time she came into the room, he would just about jerk his neck right out of joint looking at her.

When he’d finished the repair she paid him and said, “I’m going to make a . . . well . . . unusual request. But you have to first promise me you’ll keep it a secret.

The repairman quickly agreed and she went on. “Well, it’s kind of embarrassing to talk
about, but while my husband is a kind, decent man — sigh — he has a certain physical weakness. A certain disability. Now, I’m a woman and you’re a man . . . ”

The repairman could hardly speak, he was so turned on, “Yes yes!” he stammered anxiously.

“And since I’ve been wanting to ever since you came in the door . . .” she continued hesitantly.

“Yes. yes !” he nodded affirmatively, tongue tied with desire.

When she asked, “Would you help me move the refrigerator? “
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October 20, 2011 8:02pm
Other_Andy

Labour unveils agriculture policy

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10760536

One of the last, very short, statements at the bottom of their Agriculture Policy
http://www.ownourfuture.co.nz/agriculture

“Labour will commit agriculture to the ETS at the original date of 2013 instead of National’s deferred date of 2015.”
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October 20, 2011 8:18pm
Scott Chris

F E Smith says:- “Oh, that is a great joke, reid!!! I am still laughing!!!!!”

I suspect that if you were to drop Kathryn Ryan a point by point *brief and simple* summary, she might be keen to have you on her show.

She’s a bit hung up on the health service, but she’s smart.

Certainly the disparity between the 18 % rise in number of prosecutions and the 50% rise in costs is newsworthy.

Might piss off your legal adversaries a bit though.
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October 20, 2011 8:24pm
reid

I suspect that if you were to drop Kathryn Ryan a point by point *brief and simple* summary, she might be keen to have you on her show.

Scott if this is a proper country then Phil Kitchens or some other serious journo will spot it and do their job, without FES having to appear on radio.

Let’s see which way it plays out.

“Labour will commit agriculture to the ETS at the original date of 2013 instead of National’s deferred date of 2015.”

Andy, Liarbore are vicious toward those who dare to spurn them, aren’t they.
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October 20, 2011 8:28pm
Scott Chris

reid

I have a journalist friend who tells me that she spends 4 hours a day researching and writing, with the rest spent reading through stories submitted by the public or assorted press releases. She rarely has to chase a story.
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October 20, 2011 8:47pm
reid

Put her onto this then Scott and we’ll look forward to it breaking into a national scandal.

I’m serious.
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October 20, 2011 8:53pm
F E Smith

Scott,

I agree with reid’s 8.53pm comment. If she is that good at researching and wants a story, then examine this area. The fact is that the media has done no examination of either criminal defence or prosecution other than repeating what they have been told by the politicians and the Bazely report, which found NO evidence whatsoever of fraud by lawyers. It did find massive problems in the Legal Services Agency (which is why that agency no longer exists) and a lot of problems in the Court system itself (to do with Ministry practices and not court-room procedures), but her criticisms of lawyers were all minor and based upon anecdotal evidence only. Nothing she could actually point to that showed any wrong-doing by defence lawyers. But that report has been used to have a huge shake-up in the defence bar, with the partial nationalisation of criminal defence work, something that has historically been seen as important to remain a private function because of the need often to hold the government to account.

paul,

re your 7.56pm, yeah, I have known a few cases here that had very dodgy behaviour by the cops and found myself very disappointed when the savvy Police prosecutors have very quickly pulled the cases!
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October 20, 2011 9:05pm
reid

How about this for A-Grade mental?

Protests over drilling

Protesters climbed trees and roared through wire fence surrounding the Rena response control centre in an effort to have their opposition to deep-sea drilling heard.

About 70 people gathered at the former Foodtown supermarket after a crowd of at least 100 first made their presence known outside Tauranga District Court and on The Strand yesterday.

The group was protesting proposed oil drilling offshore from the East Cape at the Raukumara Basin.

That included chants of: “East Coast, West Coast, coast to coast, we don’t want oil anywhere. Stop deep-sea drilling now.”

The group was made up mostly of Greenpeace and Te Whanau a Apanui iwi members who came together to support fisherman Elvis Teddy, who is charged in connection with protest action.

Does it not fuck one off that mental fools such as this get anything but water-cannon and a night in the cells and no publicity whatsoever?

How else are these idiots ever going to become a little bit wiser?

Next thing they’ll be smearing themselves in molasses. Let’s hope when they do, it’s high summer and there’s an enormous wasp nest just over the hill.

That’s the problem with people like this. You have to start with the basics and each lesson is, sadly for them, a hard lesson. It’s a shame, but there we are, apparently.
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October 20, 2011 10:15pm
wreck1080

Gaddafi captured!!!!

Another evil dictator taken down.
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October 21, 2011 1:24am
dog_eat_dog

How could you miss this in Labour’s Agriculture policy?:

“Labour is also committed to protecting the returns farmers deserve for the quality of their work. While the total value of exports doubled between 1999 and 2008, our recent high and unpredictable exchange rate has left many farmers struggling. Like the rest of the country they should be doing much better.

Labour will amend the Reserve Bank of NZ Act 1989 to broaden the Bank’s primary function so that it includes stability of the currency to give farmers and exporters greater certainty”

Labour will fucking return to centrally planned currency. And seeing as it’s agriculture policy and meant as a slop to the export sector, to hell with the fact it will literally cripple the retail and transport sector. Mein Gott.

Also, why the fuck is amending the core purpose of the RBNZ listed in the AGRICULTURE policy announcement?
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October 21, 2011 1:33am
Nookin

wreck
one step further – shot while trying to escape.

dog
“Also, why the fuck is amending the core purpose of the RBNZ listed in the AGRICULTURE policy announcement?”
Because Labour want total control but want to disguise the fact by pretending some sort of altruistic motive, maybe?
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October 21, 2011 3:04am

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