General Debate 11 October 2011

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iMP

Whales washed up on beach…
Aren’t they full of oil?
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October 11, 2011 8:03am
Bovver

No the most convincing performance by Key on the news last night, he looked decidedly shifty when being peppered with questions about his S&P comments. It certainly has the trolls at The Standard frothing at the mouth.
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October 11, 2011 8:13am
Pete George

Considering some asset sales is fine, but making a stand against others is important. Keep Kiwibank (say no to Aussiebank).
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October 11, 2011 8:14am
Scott Chris

Old Biddies Come To Blows In Mobilitiy Scooter Rage Incident In Supermarket:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1033819/Rage-age-Mobility-scooter-grannies-exchange-blows-supermarket-clash.html

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

In other news:

96 Year Old Woman Charged With Murder:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2042094/96-year-old-woman-Floridas-oldest-murder-suspect-shooting-nephew-dead.html
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October 11, 2011 8:24am
peterwn

Bovver – Regardless of the source of information – John Key is right – on present policy announcements, NZ’s credit rating would have been down the gurgler under Labour – like BBB- .
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October 11, 2011 8:26am
Murray

“It certainly has the trolls at The Standard frothing at the mouth.”

Meaning its a day that ends in a y.
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October 11, 2011 8:31am
Other_Andy

Aborigines starved out of homelands – Amnesty

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/asia/news/article.cfm?l_id=3&objectid=10757756

“Starving Aboriginal people off their traditional homelands is akin to “ethnic cleansing”, the Amnesty International boss has been told during his Central Australia visit.”

And what do they mean by that?
Ofcourse they are not “Starving Aboriginal people off their traditional homelands”.
The federal and NT governments are splashing out cash for resources and services in 21 towns through the NT.
But according to Amnesty International….
“You can’t take an economist’s view that there are dispersed communities, no scale economy, it’s not efficient to provide services so let’s take them off their land to growth towns.”

What ‘they’ want is more money so they can live on their ‘ancesteral’ land that can’t support them. They want more money so they can access the services and enjoy the Western lifestyle no matter where they want to live, no matter how much it costs, as long as the Australian taxpayer pays for it.

Not giving us more money (No matter how much) to live in a place that cannot support the Western lifestyle we want (No rubbish disposal, no running water, no electricity) and where there are no jobs for us to pay our own way is akin to ethnic cleansing. If not, please let me know what it is.”
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October 11, 2011 8:34am
peterwn

Scott – Several years ago the Masterton police sergeant read the ‘riot act’ to the oldies for hooning on their mobility scooters. Will Judith Collins preside over the first crushing of a mobility scooter?
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October 11, 2011 8:36am
joana

John Key was absolutely appalling on TV last night..He was not right about anything..He did the classic body language 101 liars action of touching his nose..Many already knew that he was a liar but to be on tv and to be so hopelessly inarticulate in covering ones lies was a NZ first , probably a world first.. He is just so far out of his depths..Embarrassing in the extreme that that is supposed to be the best NZ can come up with. He insults the memory of all our previous Prime Ministers and heinsults and lets down all New Zealanders.
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October 11, 2011 8:40am
Scott Chris

peterwn – “Will Judith Collins preside over the first crushing of a mobility scooter?”

Lol.
________________________________________________________________________________________

Nobel Prize Winning Economists Say No Quick Fix For World Economy:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/5763985/Nobel-economists-offer-no-quick-solutions

“…government spending to bounce an economy out of slump may have its impact limited by people seeing the limits to state finances and expecting the stimulus to run out…”

If it’s only a crisis of confidence, then how do you go about reinstilling confidence?

Well, firstly, the politicians have to stop their silly partisan squabbling. Fat chance.
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October 11, 2011 8:45am
Rick Rowling

An SIS man disagrees with Phil Goff. Therefore the SIS man is a liar.
A S&P man disagrees with John Key. Threrefore John Key is a liar.

One-eyed much?
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October 11, 2011 8:45am
Inventory2

Why does Labour seem to have such contempt for the law when it comes to election campaigning?

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2011/10/if-theres-law-labour-will-break-it.html
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October 11, 2011 8:46am
Manolo

As any other leftie, he’s detached from reality: http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/spin-meter-obama-disconnects-1197664.html
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October 11, 2011 8:53am
Murray

jojo rocks up and starts slanging of John Key as her modus op then expects to convince us that her perspective is reality.

Can you say no sale?
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October 11, 2011 8:57am
Other_Andy

@joana

“Key claimed that S&P had privately warned a month or so ago that a downgrade was much more likely if there was a change of government after next month’s election.
It now turns out his claim was based on second-hand information passed on to him in an email from someone who had been at a meeting between bank economists and representatives from Standard & Poor’s.”

Following a measured, logical and common sense reaction……….

Shocking!
He was not right about ANYTHING..
MANY already knew that he was a liar
Hopelessly inarticulate in covering ones lies was a NZ first, probably a WORLD FIRST..
He is just so far out of his depths..
Embarrassing in the EXTREME
Is that the best NZ can come up with.
He insults the memory of ALL our previous Prime Ministers and heinsults and lets down ALL New Zealanders.

Phew….!
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October 11, 2011 9:02am
nasska

peterwn & Scott Chris

Someone should undertake a study of why senior citizens when driving a car seldom seem to travel much over 20kph on the streets but put them on a mobility scooter and they’ll happily bomb along a busy footpath at 30 plus.

I remember the old farts in Masterton “hooning” as peterwn mentioned….they ended up forming some club or association to promote safe scootering.
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October 11, 2011 9:06am
BeaB

Joana

PM TOUCHES HIS NOSE!

Headline? Anti-Semitic clue? Left-wing claptrap?
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October 11, 2011 9:08am
BeaB

The referendum leaflet is woeful. The print is so small you can hardly read it and, to compound the difficulty, the print is mauve on a peach background. God knows who chose such ghastly granny colours that contribute to the illegibilty.

A quarter of the leaflet is taken up with that patronising orange Mr Blobby and a drawing of a computer and of a telephone so we can be sure what they are talking about with the phone number and email contacts.

What a load of mixed messages. The designer should be sacked and they could send us an plain A4 white page with black 12pt print clearly explaining the alternatives.

This leaflet is an insult to our intelligence and I dread to see the TV ads which I am sure will be equally condescending to us dumb proles.
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October 11, 2011 9:14am
Elaycee

Jeez joana – you need help. Do you really pray to the airbrushed picture of dear leader that hangs in your lounge?

I bet you’re looking forward to election night…. I can just imagine you – apoplectic that the voters of NZ have re-elected one of the most popular PM’s of all time.

I’ll really be thinking of you…. not. Zzzzzzzz
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October 11, 2011 9:16am
Bovver

peterwn – I have no doubt what you say is true, however Key did him self no favours on last nights performance, I also think his constant refusal to be interviewed by Mary Wilson makes him look like a bit of lightweight.

I find the The Standard hilarious, it’s like reading about an alternate world aka Fringe
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October 11, 2011 9:23am
Lee01

I find the The Standard hilarious, it’s like reading about an alternate world aka Fringe

Fringe has better actors and takes itself far less seriously.
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October 11, 2011 9:34am
Scott Chris

Nasska was sitting at the lights in his brand new Hilux when Old Mrs Smithers pulled up along side him her mobility scooter.

“Bet my scooter can whip your Jappo ass Nasska” she taunted.

So Nasska pressed his pedal to the metal, and pretty soon the 3 litre turbo diesel had him up to 120mph. To his dismay, Old Mrs Smithers was keeping abreast of him, so he hit the anchors, and she whizzed on by.

Next day, Nasska was shopping at Foodtown, when he he bumped into a rather windblown looking Old Mrs Smithers.

“Wow” said Nasska, “that mobility scooter sure has some wheels!”
“Nah” replied Old Mrs Smithers, “I got my colostomy bag hooked around your wing mirror”
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October 11, 2011 9:39am
marsman

John Key is a serial liar, to defend his lies is pathetic.
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October 11, 2011 9:41am
Lee01

JK sometimes makes mistakes like the rest of us. But he cannot reasonably be called a serial liar. Phil Goff on the other hand…..
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October 11, 2011 9:44am
marsman

JK sometimes makes mistakes? Very funny.
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October 11, 2011 9:47am
dime

marsman – i hope you have also deemed labour as pathetic. ive never seen a bigger bunch of liars.

phil goff was hilarious on ZB last night. does he know he comes across like a whiny bitch?

i love how hes saying the downgrade wouldnt have been worse under labour. not “it wouldnt happen under labour because…” just that they wouldnt do any worse. low aspiration having motherfuckers.

he did mention that taxing the bejesus out of Dime would help all the losers in the future though.
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October 11, 2011 9:50am
Other_Andy

marsman

“John Key is a serial liar”

And to prove ‘marsman’ is not another left wing election troll he will back this sweeping statement up with some concrete examples very soon…..
Anytime now….
Just wait…..
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October 11, 2011 9:52am
Lee01

marsman – i hope you have also deemed labour as pathetic. ive never seen a bigger bunch of liars.

Exactly right. Goff got hammered on Breakfast this morning when he was spouting the usual dishonest drivel.
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October 11, 2011 9:53am
nasska

Chris Scott @ 9.39

Substitute the Hilux with a 4.2litre turboed Landcruiser ute & you’d be right. Life is too short for slow utes & fat women.
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October 11, 2011 9:58am
Elaycee

@dime – I also heard Goofy last night – it is clear that Labour’s only ‘plan’ is to tax, tax, tax the wealth generators in NZ, in order to pay off the Labour voter base. But the problem for Goofy is that even the traditional Labour voter has tumbled to the fact that Goofy’s model just doesn’t work.

What a bastard, eh? 🙂
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October 11, 2011 10:00am
kaya

PG – re asset sales.

Interesting piece in the Herald today from a US defence department analyst.

Analyst’s plea: Shun China’s cash

He’s even against investment. Must be a xenophobe ay?
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October 11, 2011 10:02am
Griff

Land cruiser V8 twin turbo….sexy.
Greens love to hate man machines. They love the pious which is about as environ-mental as a hummer
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October 11, 2011 10:04am
meh

the vote mmp group were out in force on lambton quay this morning spreading there dirty propaganda.
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October 11, 2011 10:21am
nasska

Griff

Not the V8…I’ve got the single turbo straight six. It only ran for a few years & is just the normal 4.2L that Toyota used for years but with a redesigned (HZ1) head for the turbo. I took a 4.5L V8 for a test drive last year & while the torque is great I didn’t think that the top end performance warranted spending the extra to upgrade at this point.
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October 11, 2011 10:27am
Lee01

Juicy quotes from Hans Herman Hoppe.

On Democracy

The American model – democracy – must be regarded as a historical error, economically as well as morally. Democracy promotes shortsightedness, capital waste, irresponsibility, and moral relativism. It leads to permanent compulsory income and wealth redistribution and legal uncertainty. It is counterproductive. It promotes demagoguery and egalitarianism. It is aggressive and potentially totalitarian internally, vis-à-vis its own population, as well as externally. In sum, it leads to a dramatic growth of state power, as manifested by the amount of parasitically – by means of taxation and expropriation – appropriated government income and wealth in relation to the amount of productively – through market exchange – acquired private income and wealth, and by the range and invasiveness of state legislation. Democracy is doomed to collapse, just as Soviet communism was doomed to collapse

Democracy has nothing to do with freedom. Democracy is a soft variant of communism, and rarely in the history of ideas has it been taken for anything else. .

On Natural Elites

In every society, a few individuals acquire the status of an elite through talent. Due to superior achievements of wealth, wisdom, and bravery, these individuals come to possess natural authority, and their opinions and judgments enjoy wide-spread respect. Moreover, because of selective mating, marriage, and the laws of civil and genetic inheritance, positions of natural authority are likely to be passed on within a few noble families. It is to the heads of these families with long-established records of superior achievement, farsightedness, and exemplary personal conduct that men turn to with their conflicts and complaints against each other. These leaders of the natural elite act as judges and peacemakers, often free of charge out of a sense of duty expected of a person of authority or out of concern for civil justice as a privately produced “public good.”

On Conservatism

Private property capitalism and egalitarian multiculturalism are as unlikely a combination as socialism and cultural conservatism. And in trying to combine what cannot be combined, much of the modern libertarian movement actually contributed to the further erosion of private property rights (just as much of contemporary conservatism contributed to the erosion of families and traditional morals). What the countercultural libertarians failed to recognize, and what true libertarians cannot emphasize enough, is that the restoration of private property rights and laissez-faire economics implies a sharp and drastic increase in social “discrimination” and will swiftly eliminate most if not all of the multicultural-egalitarian life style experiments so close to the heart of left libertarians. In other words, libertarians must be radical and uncompromising conservatives.
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October 11, 2011 10:29am
dime

do Nissan sell the Patrol over here?

back in the day, Dime used to sell a ton of em in Aussie.

They were a beast of a thing. Thirsty of course.
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October 11, 2011 10:44am
wf

I wouldn’t talk to Mary Wilson either – why bother, she gets stuck on a question and gets shriller and shriller. Her rudeness is appalling.

Listening to her is like watching one of those eternal tennis rallies which only end when someone decides (mercifully) to cut it short.
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October 11, 2011 10:46am
Viking2

Update from down at the beech.
Been down the south end of Papamoa Beech, wind 5-8 knots onshore, sea small swell, not really enough for surfing. So far no gale force winds or big swells.

Word is that the rock has crushed under the ship and the ship ha gone from 11 degrees list to 4 degrees.
Staff being taken off.

Interesting senario could be: will the rock crush sufficiently for the ship to refloat on the high tides and the end of this month?

Latest news: http://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/17271-rena-moves-ship-evacuated.html

http://www.jma.go.jp/en/gms/smallc.html?area=4&element=0&mode=UTC

http://clearnet.co.nz/weather/satellite-images.html
and as you can see from the weather info likely calm weather for more than a few days.
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October 11, 2011 10:52am
nasska

Dime

I think they’re available as a station wagon but not a great seller. The market is crowded with SUVs but the challenge is to buy a ute that will tow heavy loads without crapping out. IMHO the Hilux & Navara are too light & that only leaves the Landcruiser.

A couple of years ago friends of mine did a trip starting at Cairns, through the Northern Territory & down to Perth. They reckoned that every second vehicle on the road was a Landcruiser, either ute or SW.
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October 11, 2011 10:56am
Manolo

A whiter-than-white economist is just another hypocrite: http://michellemalkin.com/2011/10/10/former-enron-adviser-paul-krugman-joins-progs-war-on-plutocrats/
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October 11, 2011 10:57am
Ryan Sproull

What the countercultural libertarians failed to recognize, and what true libertarians cannot emphasize enough, is that the restoration of private property rights and laissez-faire economics implies a sharp and drastic increase in social “discrimination” and will swiftly eliminate most if not all of the multicultural-egalitarian life style experiments so close to the heart of left libertarians. In other words, libertarians must be radical and uncompromising conservatives.

Could probably replace that final word with a few others, just for fun.
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October 11, 2011 10:58am
RightNow

How clever is this from Australian transport workers union…

UNIONS have warned travellers not to buy tickets from Qantas between now and Christmas in a dramatic escalation of a campaign designed to cause maximum disruption to the airline.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/flight-chaos-to-last-until-christmas-unions-warn/story-e6frg95x-1226163447142

Yep, tell people to boycott your employer, that should help you keep your jobs.
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October 11, 2011 11:24am
Lee01

A reality check on the so-called Arab spring.

As liberal journalists (the idiot Gwynne Dyer being one) trumpet the claim that the spread of democracy in the Middle East proves that Arabs/Muslims are “just like us” and that Samuel Huntington’s ‘Clash of Civilisations’ thesis has been proven wrong, the truth is becoming more and more apparent.

Christians under siege in post-revolution Egypt:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jN29ldu38WGxxUym_dLTeqtav9hw?docId=44e63db031314338a0bdc05f5c056aca
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October 11, 2011 11:28am
hannity

Can’t find DPFs post on John Key misleading parliament, and awkward press con. WTF
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October 11, 2011 11:33am
Ryan Sproull

Leaderless movement whose decisions are reached through a long process of open discussion towards a nine-tenths majority consensus.

And they claim they’re not anarchists – hah.
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October 11, 2011 11:33am
Weihana

Lee01,

“What the countercultural libertarians failed to recognize, and what true libertarians cannot emphasize enough, is that the restoration of private property rights and laissez-faire economics implies a sharp and drastic increase in social “discrimination” and will swiftly eliminate most if not all of the multicultural-egalitarian life style experiments so close to the heart of left libertarians. In other words, libertarians must be radical and uncompromising conservatives.”

Lee, do you think a couple of childless gay men, both with professional careers, are living off handouts like Working for Families? I fail to see how a laissez-faire economic system will promote discrimination against so-called “life style experiments” such as these. Indeed it has been family units which have been heavily and increasingly subsidized through basic welfare like the domestic purposes benefit and more recently by initiatives like Working for Families. They are also subsidized through state funded education and health-care which is paid for by all taxpayers including the many single or childless couples. People seem to have an attitude that they can have a family whenever they damn feel like it regardless of whether they can afford it or not.

Therefore, I do not see how libertarianism implies social conservatism. Quite the opposite in fact which is why libertarians are generally not social conservatives. What they promote is a radical form of liberty where the market rules and whatever social behaviour can survive, without depending on government intervention, is considered acceptable.
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October 11, 2011 11:53am
Lee01

@ Weihana

I fail to see how a laissez-faire economic system will promote discrimination against so-called “life style experiments” such as these.

A free society will allow individuals and covenant communities to excersise their property rights, and enforce descrimination and exclusion.

Therefore, I do not see how libertarianism implies social conservatism.

Social liberalism exists only because it is enforced by the power of the liberal state through things like affirmative action, so-called human rights laws, and hate speech laws. Moreover, liberal lifestyles lead to outcomes such as single parents and family breakdown that “requires” state intervention through welfare.

Thus, given the restoration of the right to descriminate, given the resoration of the right to voluntary association, and given the end of state enforced political correctness and no welfare net, a true libertarian society will then lead naturally to a socially conservative one, as that is the natural order. Liberal libertarians may believe otherwise, but they are deluded.
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October 11, 2011 12:05pm
Someone Else

I wonder how Stephen Joyce plans to stall the Rena response until after the election.

The Pike River Disaster, the Canterbury Earthquakes, the Rena shipwreck… All the government responses have been pathetic. A case of appoint an ‘independent’ inquiry and stall it until after the election.

Surely it is a case of three strikes and you’re out!
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October 11, 2011 12:09pm
Lance

@RightNow
Yes in a job environment where you are paid far more than your competition.
Dumber than Dogshit
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October 11, 2011 12:12pm
Ryan Sproull

Social liberalism exists only because it is enforced by the power of the liberal state through things like affirmative action, so-called human rights laws, and hate speech laws. Moreover, liberal lifestyles lead to outcomes such as single parents and family breakdown that “requires” state intervention through welfare.

Thus, given the restoration of the right to descriminate, given the resoration of the right to voluntary association, and given the end of state enforced political correctness and no welfare net, a true libertarian society will then lead naturally to a socially conservative one, as that is the natural order. Liberal libertarians may believe otherwise, but they are deluded.

What happens if people, when left to their own devices, don’t trend towards your idea of the natural order, perhaps trending away from it?
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October 11, 2011 12:12pm
Lee01

@ Ryan

Its called the Natural Order for a reason. Over time, most people will trend towards it, to varying degrees, as it will be the only way to survive. Liberalism is a creation of the state.
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October 11, 2011 12:15pm
Viking2

Piss off you who doesn’t know their own name and wants to blame someone else.
typical lefty wants to claim everything for the Govt. So Hodgson for a mining debacle, traveller Chris for the ship and Helen in charge of the earthquake.
By the time TC found out where the Astrolab is he would have been all around the world.
Hodgson would have sacked everybody that could do anything and Helen would have had a queer party as the earth moved.
Go back to your sty pig.
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October 11, 2011 12:17pm
Lee01

The Pike River Disaster, the Canterbury Earthquakes, the Rena shipwreck

There is no evidence, beyond the usual dishonest propaganda by Labour, that the Nats could have done anything different in the circumstances.
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October 11, 2011 12:20pm
Weihana

# Manolo (4,997) Says:
October 11th, 2011 at 10:57 am

“A whiter-than-white economist is just another hypocrite: http://michellemalkin.com/2011/10/10/former-enron-adviser-paul-krugman-joins-progs-war-on-plutocrats/”

How does that make him a hypocrite?

Michelle Malkin seems to think that anyone who complains about how the system is set up cannot partake in the system at all otherwise they are hypocrites. I noticed she has a picture of protesters where she points at many of them and notes corporate products from hats made by corporations to cardboard boxes made by corporations which the protesters have in their possession. This is a pretty stupid argument to put forth but not unexpected for an Ann-Coulter-wannabe.

What Malkin avoids acknowledging is that while it is true that corporations produce products like hats and boxes, it is also true to say that workers make those products. The ridiculous right, which includes Malkin, would likely argue that but for the corporations those products wouldn’t exist. Meanwhile the loony left might argue that but for the workers those products wouldn’t exist. In truth those products exist because of both. The argument therefore is about what is the best system for producing those products and in particular issues such as market regulation and taxation on the richest 1 percent are highly talked about issues. Neither issue implies that one is a hypocrite if they consume corporate products. Corporations still produced these things back during the mid 20th century when at times the highest marginal tax rate was well above 50 percent.

Michelle Malkin’s tactic is to essentially create a straw man where anyone who protests the current state of affairs is a hypocrite for not living in a communist compound in Siberia.
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October 11, 2011 12:26pm
Lance

@Someone else

The present shipwreck / oil spill policy was put in place by Helen Clark’d regime

It was meet with skepticism at the time of it’s release as it was light on oil spill containment methodology.
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October 11, 2011 12:27pm
joana

Elaycee..I don’t need help; I am just old enough to have high standards and to still remember how to feel shame.
I come from a long line of public speakers , some former politicians amongst us and we almost die of shame when we hear this child mumbling and fumbling on TV, but this recent performance was the worst performance we have ever seen or heard of any politician anywhere, anytime.
The worst thing about him is that he makes me feel ancient , not just old , not just grandmotherly but positively ancient. I have never had time for immature men ; I see them as other people’s parenting failures. They are drainers , not contributers. New Zealand deserves better.
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October 11, 2011 12:32pm
Lee01

issues such as market regulation.

It was market regulation that created the problem. The issue with Kurgman and the protesters is that their anger is misdirected. The federal government, under both Clinton and Bush, was the primary reason for the current problems. Krugman refuses to acknowledge that his own Keyenesian economics is the root cause of crrent economic woes.

But then this is a guy that told Greece to bowwow and spend more to get out of its massive debt/spending problem!
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October 11, 2011 12:32pm
Lee01

@joana

we almost die of shame when we hear this child mumbling and fumbling on TV

You would be amongst a very small minority then. Most people like Key a great deal.

New Zealand deserves better.

Key is the best on offer. No country deserves Goff or the Labour Party.

I don’t think JK is immature. Certainly not by comparison to Clare Curran, Damien Fenton, Charles Chauvel, Goff, and the rest of the whiners and haters.
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October 11, 2011 12:36pm
bc

Hmmm, the fact that people are are reacting so viciously towards joana, ie attacking the messenger not the message, suggests that a few people know that joana has a point but will not admit it. Note that DPF has also been strangely silent with John Key’s blunders this week.
Like it or not, John Key was terrible at that press conference. He was being evasive, and doing a pretty bad job of it. After a while he just stopped talking, and did his shrug of the shoulders move! His body language was terrible: rubbing his nose, covering his mouth when talking – all classic signs of lying.
National have had a terrible week, most of it to do with John Key’s actions. It IS possible to be a national supporter AND admit this. Getting closer to an election we should all want our PM to be a bit more careful with his choice of words and behaviour. Do we really want labour to have any ammunition?
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October 11, 2011 12:36pm
Scott Chris

Lee says: “Its called the Natural Order for a reason”

What is unnatural about the order we presently have relative to that of any other stage of our cultural evolution?
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October 11, 2011 12:37pm
Weihana

Lee01,

“Social liberalism exists only because it is enforced by the power of the liberal state through things like affirmative action, so-called human rights laws, and hate speech laws.”

Affirmative action and hate speech laws are pretty inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. In actual fact the reason there is no longer much openly expressed racism is because of social pressure not government action. People with backward ideals are unpopular and people overall have become more tolerant and less prejudiced. If anything it would be views like yours that are more likely to be excluded, though a truly liberal attitude would not exclude anyone on such prejudice.

“Moreover, liberal lifestyles lead to outcomes such as single parents and family breakdown that “requires” state intervention through welfare.”

This is not true. This is just a preconceived idea you’ve made up to support your conclusion. Certainly gay lifestyles result in no family break down because it is biologically impossible for them to conceive.

Moreover, there is no evidence that those in dysfunctional homes are more liberal than others. In fact if we consider for the moment that Maori are over-represented in such statistics, Maori actually tend to be more socially conservative than Pakeha.
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October 11, 2011 12:39pm
Lee01

Michelle Malkin makes a valid point about Krugmans hypocrisy. How can a guy who was an advisor to Enron moan about corporations?

Chardonnay socialism at its most pathetic.
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October 11, 2011 12:40pm
Scott Chris

bc says: “Getting closer to an election we should all want our PM to be a bit more careful with his choice of words and behaviour.”

A balanced assessment. Mind you, Farrar doesn’t pretend to be balanced. Gets a bit tiresome though. Cheerleading is so boring.
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October 11, 2011 12:41pm
Scott Chris

Lee says: “Chardonnay socialism at its most pathetic” and “traitor” etc

If you want people to be respectful towards Christians, then I suggest you do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
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October 11, 2011 12:47pm
Lee01

@ Weihana

Affirmative action and hate speech laws are pretty inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

The state telling you who you can and cannot hire and what your allowed to say is never inconsequential.

the reason there is no longer much openly expressed racism is because of social pressure not government action.

Rubbish. Most people supported Paul Henry. The state fired him. Given freedom to speak their minds, most normal people generally are not PC.

This is not true. This is just a preconceived idea you’ve made up to support your conclusion. Certainly gay lifestyles result in no family break down because it is biologically impossible for them to conceive.

Its provably true. I was not just talking abour “gays”, the entire edifice of social liberalism leads to social breakdown, which is possible only because the state steps in with welfare to hide the problem, and support its continuation.

Do really think there would be as many single parents as there is now if there was no DPB? How about abortions if the state did not pay for them?

Moreover, there is no evidence that those in dysfunctional homes are more liberal than others. In fact if we consider for the moment that Maori are over-represented in such statistics, Maori actually tend to be more socially conservative than Pakeha.

Not in their behaviour. Being conservative is not just an idea, its how a person lives. Most urban Maori are not conservative in their actual lifestyles.

Liberal non-Maori familes may be less represented in the worst statistics, but that is because their liberalism is a fraud. They spout liberalism, but their lifestyles are conservative, betraying the truth that their stated ideology does not work in practice.
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October 11, 2011 12:49pm
Weihana

Lee01,

“It was market regulation that created the problem.”

The riskiest and worst performing lending was conducted through the shadow banking system where there existed a lack of regulation despite such activities being similar to what banks do.

Even someone like Alan Greenspan can admit his mistake:

“Those of us who have looked to the self-interest of lending institutions to protect shareholder’s equity — myself especially — are in a state of shocked disbelief.”

But hey, what would he know about free markets? 🙂
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October 11, 2011 12:51pm
Lee01

Scott,

If you want people to be respectful towards Christians, then I suggest you do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I am not engaging in personal abuse towards others in this forum. I made a point of repenting of that. Calling chardonnay socialism pathetic is to attack an idea, not a person. Calling a person a traitor is merely to state a fact.

Your trying to twist what I say to suit yourself. And given your own rhetoric towards others at times, your not in a position to point fingers.
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October 11, 2011 12:53pm
nasska

Kiwiblog doesn’t have to be balanced to provide balance to the political scene.
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October 11, 2011 12:54pm
RightNow

@bc, perhaps there’s more to the reaction to joana than just what’s in this thread, particularly her comment here:
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/10/dancing_against_asset_sales.html#comment-887601

“What Wgtn really really needs is a 7.8.”

Wishing for a disaster to strike that would very likely involve multiple deaths and devastation is low, even for a Labour supporter. It should tuck its hairy rat-tail between its hairy rat-legs and fuck off to the sewer it crawled out of.
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October 11, 2011 12:54pm
tom hunter

Neither issue implies that one is a hypocrite if they consume corporate products.

You’re a hypocrite if you use products built by corporations that you describe as evil, in the same way that you’re a hypocrite if you rant about the manipulations resulting from the creation of fancy new financial instruments when you received mucho dollars advising one of the granddaddies of that effort – Enron – and you’re on record praising them to the skies as a new kind of company.

Of course it’s Krugman so it could just be just be his extreme partisanship cutting off his synapses as has happened before: less hypocrite than fool.

As far as a Wall Street is concerned I’m hardly a defender of the likes of Goldman Sachs, but those morons in the OWS protests appear to have zero self-awareness of the fact that their hero, Barack Obama, aided by those mighty left-wing defenders of the working class, the Democrat party – enabled all this shit with almost endless streams of money via the Federal Reserve. Not exactly a surprise when Obama turns out to have raised more cash from Wall Street firms than any other presidential candidate in the last 20 years.

You want to end this shit – go for vastly smaller government that is not able to wield such power. But as Mark Steyn memorably described them the other day: they’re They’re anarchists for Big Government.

Corporations still produced these things back during the mid 20th century when at times the highest marginal tax rate was well above 50 percent.

And they still do in places like Sweden where the corporate tax rate is lower (much lower) than the US. You should also note the crucial fact that specific taxes, specific tax rates and even marginal tax rates are all beside the point compared to the actual tax revenue that was collected as a result. And in the US those tax revenues have wobbled around 18-19% of GDP as far back as professional IRS records go. Total tax revenue has gone up in good times and down in bad times: the tax rates do not appear to have had much of a direct effect on those amounts.

But hey – if you want to raise taxes on the richest 1% you go for it. Make it 100% of their annual income and 100% of their wealth – that will pay for a few months of the 2012 deficit.
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October 11, 2011 12:56pm
Lee01

But hey, what would he know about free markets?

Well, more than you.

Try this for a start. You can download a free pdf version from Mises.

http://blog.mises.org/9387/meltdown-new-book-by-thomas-woods/
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October 11, 2011 12:56pm
tom hunter

I should add the Obama and the Dems followed Bush and the GOP in all this bank enabling crap – just not in the way the left think they have.
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October 11, 2011 1:00pm
Weihana

# Lee01 (1,338) Says:
October 11th, 2011 at 12:49 pm

“The state telling you who you can and cannot hire and what your allowed to say is never inconsequential.”

Don’t be so naive. How can one prove what’s going on in the mind of the employer? Not always so easy.

“Rubbish. Most people supported Paul Henry. The state fired him. Given freedom to speak their minds, most normal people generally are not PC.”

Paul Henry isn’t a racist. He made fun of a funny name and people appreciate that.

“Do really think there would be as many single parents as there is now if there was no DPB? How about abortions if the state did not pay for them?”

If we accept that welfare is a liberal policy that does not imply that those who are more likely to need it do so because they are liberal. Many of those on welfare are religious, they don’t use contraception (hence the pregnancy), they are not particularly tolerant of alternative lifestyles like homosexuality etc.

Furthermore, abortions have nothing to do with family break down. Indeed the lack of an abortion often leads to unsustainable outcomes where state intervention is needed.

“Not in their behaviour. Being conservative is not just an idea, its how a person lives. Most urban Maori are not conservative in their actual lifestyles.

Liberal non-Maori familes may be less represented in the worst statistics, but that is because their liberalism is a fraud. They spout liberalism, but their lifestyles are conservative, betraying the truth that their stated ideology does not work in practice.”

So conservative Maori are not conservative and liberal whites are not liberal. Hilarious.

What you fail to appreciate is that while liberalism tolerates alternative lifestyles it does not tolerate or advocate ANY lifestyle. Liberalism does not advocate people get a young girl pregnant and then leave her to join a gang and live a life of crime. Neither does conservatism for that matter and this is why it is lazy to try and blame such complex social behaviour on your political opponents. The fact that you are trying to blame family break down on liberalism just reinforces the notion that all of your ideas are preconceived without any actual basis in fact.
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October 11, 2011 1:04pm
Elaycee

@joana – nice to see that you have selected reverse gear and the wheels are spinning….

Key may not be the most articulate (and he may not reach your lofty standards of public speaking) but guess what? Clearly, Kiwis are able to judge him for themselves and it looks like they don’t share your views. Warts and all, it appears that New Zealanders prefer him over anyone else. By a country mile.

And based on the views represented by polls, Key will bolt in next month. And when this happens, I’ll make a point of raising a glass of bubbles when the results come through and I hope you’ll share my sense of elation that the gaggle of gays and unionists from the parasitic left (and their luddite cousins from the swamp), will be consigned to three more years in the political wilderness.

You mention the word ‘standards’…. Have you forgotten Chris Carter / Klark / Jones / Cullen / Mallard / Chauvel (just to mention 6)? Have you forgotten how an election was stolen by using taxpayer funds? Have you forgotten the sheer hypocrisy and the outright lies told by the left? The electorate hasn’t – remember that Klark’s outfit was dumped in 2008 and it doesn’t look like a swing back to the left any time soon.

Enjoy. Because I will.
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October 11, 2011 1:05pm
odysseus

Hey DPF -where’s the post on the latest Key lying?
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October 11, 2011 1:07pm
Scott Chris

Lee says:- “Your trying to twist what I say to suit yourself”

Nope. Just holding you up against your own standard of measure. You can only be sanctimonious and pious if you are pure.

Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
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October 11, 2011 1:07pm
Ryan Sproull

Its called the Natural Order for a reason. Over time, most people will trend towards it, to varying degrees, as it will be the only way to survive. Liberalism is a creation of the state.

And what if you’re wrong, and the state is the only thing keeping conservatism alive?
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October 11, 2011 1:11pm
Scott Chris

Lee says:- “Calling a person a traitor is merely to state a fact.”

No it isn’t. In relative terms, no one is a traitor. It is a judgmental epithet and an insult.

I could accuse you of being a traitor for failing to be loyal to those things I believe you should be loyal too, such as the ecology of God’s planet, but I understand that you are entitled to your loyalties under most basic principle of freedom of thought.
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October 11, 2011 1:16pm
Lee01

Scott,

I am not being sanctimonious and pious, I am attacking political ideas. Thats what this is really all about for you. That I attack liberalism. Your just using the “not casting stones” bit as a cover. A traitor is a traitor. “relative terms” do not apply as morality is not relative.

Plus, your yourself have engaged in personal attcks, so your not one to be casting stones. Moreover, when I was the target of extreme personal abuse, even to the point of having my wife brought into it, you had nothing to say. Hypocrisy?

Sorry, but this line does not wash with me anymore. Look to yourself before trying to correct others.
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October 11, 2011 1:28pm
Lee01

@ Weihana

How can one prove what’s going on in the mind of the employer? Not always so easy.

Irrelevant. The Human Rights Act exists and is enforced, thereby violating voluntary association.

Paul Henry isn’t a racist.

IYes, but he did get fired by the state for supposedly being a racist.

If we accept that welfare is a liberal policy that does not imply that those who are more likely to need it do so because they are liberal.

It means they behave in ways liberals approve of, such as having sex and children out of wedlock.

Many of those on welfare are religious

Prove it. With NZ statistics. I dare ya! 🙂 Rubbish.

So conservative Maori are not conservative and liberal whites are not liberal.

Not in terms of their behaviour, no.

And you assertion that Maori are “conservative” in the first place is rubbish.

What you fail to appreciate is that while liberalism tolerates alternative lifestyles

Rubbish. It tolerates ONLY those views and lifestyles it approves of.

Ask Paul Henry. Or the Exclusive Brethren. Or the teachers from a conservative Christian school forced to attend a re-education camp by the human rights commision for not hiring a homosexual.

Liberal Tolerance? Crap. Now THATS hilarious.
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October 11, 2011 1:37pm
Lee01

@ Ryan

And what if you’re wrong, and the state is the only thing keeping conservatism alive?

I’m not wrong on this. The state is killing conservatism. It flourished prior to the modern liberal state, now its dying. This is not rocket science.
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October 11, 2011 1:39pm
Scott Chris

Lee says:- “Plus, your yourself have engaged in personal attacks”

Certainly I have. But that is beside the point. No matter how unfair it seems, the only way to judge a person’s character is by how well they live up to their own standards, be you a Christian, or a liberal.

My simple solution to heated argument is do unto others as they do unto me, which to me is fair, but you can’t use that excuse as a Christian. You must turn the other cheek.

If you become a liberal, then I’ll stop reminding you of your current moral code, and how you fail to live up to it.
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October 11, 2011 1:42pm
Lee01

Weihana,

The fact that you are trying to blame family break down on liberalism just reinforces the notion that all of your ideas are preconceived without any actual basis in fact.

My critique of liberalism comes from from many years of reading, study and personal observation and experiance. They are based on fact.

Far from being lazy, its the propoenents of a failed ideology who are, being unwilling to challenge their preconcieved prejudice and fundamnetalist adherence to their worldview, despite the vast amount of evidence to the contrary.
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October 11, 2011 1:44pm
Ryan Sproull

I’m not wrong on this. The state is killing conservatism. It flourished prior to the modern liberal state, now its dying. This is not rocket science.

You’re not the first person to express your beliefs on how people should act with a capital N and capital O on “natural order” and claim it’s how they would act if it wasn’t for [insert bad thing here]. What makes you different from all of the others?
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October 11, 2011 1:47pm
Lee01

Scott,

Certainly I have. But that is beside the point.

Ohhhh riiiight! 🙂

You must turn the other cheek.

I am. I am no longer engaging in returning personal abuse. Calling Chardonnay socialism pathetic is attacking an idea. not personal abuse. Calling a person a traitor is attcking a behaviour, not responding to abuse with abuse.

The problem is that your confused about a great many things, like what the Bible says, what Jesus taught, and what personal abuse is. Until you sort out that confusion, your criticism of me is meaningless and without foundation.
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October 11, 2011 1:48pm
Lee01

Ryan,

What makes you different to all the others who have advocated your political beliefs?

Do you actually have a substantial critique? Your questions seem facile to me. Not attacking you, just not sure where your trying to go with this.

Of course I COULD be wrong. But I don’t think I am. I don’t think over two hundred years of Conservative thought is wrong. Thats just my opinion.
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October 11, 2011 1:50pm
Lucia Maria

Is this what everyone is going on about with regards to John Key on TV? Explaining is losing- Key on Standard and Poor’s

I’m no fan of John Key, however I have to say he’s occasionally touching his nose (once maybe twice) because he’s sniffing. He’s got hayfever or the beginning of a cold. The content of the post seems to be making a whole lot out of nothing as well.
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October 11, 2011 2:00pm
Scott Chris

Lee

I think you are being dishonest with yourself. Doesn’t matter really. 95% of people lie to themselves constantly to shield themselves from their inconsistencies and assumptions.

BTW

You may have missed my question on the Coddington thread. What do you believe the historical context to have been for Jesus and Paul? And how did they navigate the treacherous territory between the Roman authority and the differing expectations of their followers?
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October 11, 2011 2:00pm
Ryan Sproull

Ryan,

What makes you different to all the others who have advocated your political beliefs?

Do you actually have a substantial critique? Your questions seem facile to me. Not attacking you, just not sure where your trying to go with this.

Of course I COULD be wrong. But I don’t think I am. I don’t think over two hundred years of Conservative thought is wrong. Thats just my opinion.

You do think over two hundred years of any thought that contradicts Conservative thought is wrong, though.

Perhaps if you explained why you think your ideals are the Natural Order in some way that people would naturally act the way you think they should if it wasn’t for the state. Is it a position that can be summed up succinctly?
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October 11, 2011 2:01pm
ciaron

My simple solution to heated argument is do unto others as they do unto me, which to me is fair, but you can’t use that excuse as a Christian. You must turn the other cheek.

By crikey, you are labouring under a HUGE misunderstanding 🙂
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October 11, 2011 2:09pm
Lee01

@ Ryan

You do think over two hundred years of any thought that contradicts Conservative thought is wrong, though.

Of course. We all (ideally anyway) look at the evidence and the arguments, and make a choice based on our own reason, feelings and experiance. In this I am no different to you or anyone else.

Perhaps if you explained why you think your ideals are the Natural Order in some way that people would naturally act the way you think they should if it wasn’t for the state.

Look at the West prior to the advent of statism in the 18th century. Not perfect by any means, but generally when you look at the West prior to the 18th century, including the pre-Christian classical period, you generally see monarchy, heirarchy, and family centred society based on the ties of kith and kin.

If you want a detailed historical analysis and argument in favour of what I am saying, read this:

‘Democracy: The God that Failed: The Economics and Politics of Monarchy, Democracy, and Natural Order’

http://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Economics-Politics-Monarchy-Natural/dp/0765808684

While I have read other sources over the years, this book was by the far the most powerful and well-argued defense of what might be called ‘Libertarian-Traditionalism’.
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October 11, 2011 2:14pm
grumpyoldhori

Lee, prove a lot of bible bashers are bludgers, no need just go and have a lok at those destiny fuckwits and ask them how many do not have either the skill or drive to get a job.
Fuck, you bible bashers believe the rest of us should pay your rates for the place where you make like muslims and fall to your knees.
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October 11, 2011 2:18pm
Lee01

Scott,

I think you are being dishonest with yourself.

I think your twisting things and using double standards.

What do you believe the historical context to have been for Jesus and Paul? And how did they navigate the treacherous territory between the Roman authority and the differing expectations of their followers?

In terms of the first the historical context does not determine what is written in Scripture in the way your saying. In terms of the second, they did not navigate the waters your claiming, they spoke the truth at all times without fear or favour.
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October 11, 2011 2:18pm
Lee01

Lee, prove a lot of bible bashers are bludgers, no need just go and have a lok at those destiny fuckwits and ask them how many do not have either the skill or drive to get a job.

Have you done that? I doubt it. I would say that they have a great deal of drive and skill now that they are off welfare and in Destiny. Destiny has done more to get Maori off of drugs and out of gangs and off welfare and into work than the welfare state ever has.
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October 11, 2011 2:22pm
Weihana

tom hunter,

“You’re a hypocrite if you use products built by corporations that you describe as evil”

I agree. However, in the piece by Malkin I didn’t see a quote from Krugman where he described corporations as evil.
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October 11, 2011 2:36pm
Lee01

For Weihana’s benefit.

Free economic education.

Verdict on the Crash: Causes and Policy Implications:

http://www.iea.org.uk/publications/research/verdict-on-the-crash-causes-and-policy-implications

A Credit-Crunch Reader:

http://www.iea.org.uk/publications/research/a-credit-crunch-reader-web-publication

An Introduction to the Austrian School of Economics

http://mises.org/books/introtoaustrian.pdf
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October 11, 2011 2:38pm
leftyliberal

Lee01: How do the many non-west cultures that exist pretty much the same as they have done for thousands of years such as tribes in south america, PNG etc. fit into this natural order of yours?
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October 11, 2011 2:40pm
Weihana

tom hunter,

“You should also note the crucial fact that specific taxes, specific tax rates and even marginal tax rates are all beside the point compared to the actual tax revenue that was collected as a result. And in the US those tax revenues have wobbled around 18-19% of GDP as far back as professional IRS records go. Total tax revenue has gone up in good times and down in bad times: the tax rates do not appear to have had much of a direct effect on those amounts.

But hey – if you want to raise taxes on the richest 1% you go for it. Make it 100% of their annual income and 100% of their wealth – that will pay for a few months of the 2012 deficit.”

True, and certainly the current low revenues recieved should be taken in context of the current crisis and weak state of the economy. But few are suggesting the richest 1% pay 100% of their annual income or 100% of their wealth. That is just being absurd. But some people are suggesting they pay a little more and ease the burden on those who are less able to contribute and who are suffering the most under the present crisis.
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October 11, 2011 2:42pm
Lee01

Lefty,

Most of them fit the basic structure I am talking about. A Chief (King), a natural heirarchy, a family centered society based on bloodties of kith and kin.
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October 11, 2011 2:43pm
Weihana

Lee01 (1,352) Says:
October 11th, 2011 at 2:38 pm

For Weihana’s benefit.

Free economic education.

————————–

Thanks Lee. But I’m more interested in what you have to say.

Edit: Shit did I really just say that I’m more interested in what you have say? I must be crazy. 🙂
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October 11, 2011 2:44pm

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