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September 24, 2011 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 24 September 2011

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General Debate

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Lee01

Scott,

“I argue, that in the end, Science works.”

The problem is not science, but scientism.

tristanb

“At least Lee is admitting that science (or “scientism” as his puts it) is feared by religion.”

Not at all. many people who are not religious are concerned about a science that is largely devoid of any moral commitments beyond its own self-referencing. That makes it dangerous, hence my use of the term Faustian. Modern scientism is Nietzsche’s “will to power”. It is this industrialised, value-free will to power that has created the ecological crisis.

“A Christian listens to his preacher, is told that the Bible says it’s 3. The Christian doesn’t question this. To question this would be sacrilegious. The Christian campaigns to ban teaching of anything that contradicts the Bible.”

Rubbish. There is always questioning and debate in my church. Epic fail. Try again, your ignorance is showing.
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September 24, 2011 1:12pm
Lee01

tristanb,

“Big Bang”

Most Christians have always been fine with the big bang.

“Evolution”

Some atheist scietists also question evolution

“Non-Existence of Heaven”

Proof?

“Uselessness of Prayer”

I can prove otherwise.

“Ending Slavery”

It was Christian who led the fight against slavery.

“Spherical Earth”

The Bible teaches a spherical Earth.

“Accountability of Child Molesting Priests”

What about the accountability of homosexuals?

“and any other rational argument that Christians have fought against.”

What rationality have you provided? All I see is ignorance and lies.
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September 24, 2011 1:17pm
tom hunter

Finally – because it is too gorgeous a day to sit inside even for lunch – here’s Netanyahu issuing some blunt truths:

Our scientists, doctors, innovators, apply their genius to improve the world of tomorrow. Our artists, our writers, enrich the heritage of humanity. Now, I know that this is not exactly the image of Israel that is often portrayed in this hall. After all, it was here in 1975 that the age-old yearning of my people to restore our national life in our ancient biblical homeland — it was then that this was braided — branded, rather — shamefully, as racism. And it was here in 1980, right here, that the historic peace agreement between Israel and Egypt wasn’t praised; it was denounced! And it’s here year after year that Israel is unjustly singled out for condemnation. It’s singled out for condemnation more often than all the nations of the world combined. Twenty-one out of the 27 General Assembly resolutions condemn Israel — the one true democracy in the Middle East.

Well, this is an unfortunate part of the U.N. institution. It’s the — the theater of the absurd. It doesn’t only cast Israel as the villain; it often casts real villains in leading roles: Gadhafi’s Libya chaired the U.N. Commission on Human Rights; Saddam’s Iraq headed the U.N. Committee on Disarmament.

You might say: That’s the past. Well, here’s what’s happening now — right now, today. Hezbollah-controlled Lebanon now presides over the U.N. Security Council. This means, in effect, that a terror organization presides over the body entrusted with guaranteeing the world’s security.

You couldn’t make this thing up….
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September 24, 2011 1:19pm
Scott Chris

tristanb

The pi conundrum is intriguing. Perhaps a kind of maths could be invented that would assume the value of pi = 1 as a base unit, as a means of using a universal geometric ratio as the fundamental building block of circular mathematics.
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September 24, 2011 1:19pm
Pete George

But prayer is useless as a means of conjuring magic as far as I know.

As far as I know too, but it can be useful with self focus, resolve, determination, hope, positive outlook etc.
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September 24, 2011 1:29pm
Ed Snack

Scott, I’m sure that FF would express it more accurately, but you confused about neutrino masses etc. A photon, the force carrying particle for the electromagnetic force, has a zero REST mass. There is no theoretical reason for neutrinos to have zero rest mass, and experimentally it seems that they do have a small mass.
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September 24, 2011 1:32pm
leftyliberal

Scott: That results in spherical geometry, as the ratio of the circle to it’s diameter being fixed (and equal to the pi we know and love) is equivalent to the parallel postulate of Euclids (a requirement for Euclidean geometry). A ratio of 1 is possible in spherical geometry, however it’s non-constant in R (consider moving a distance R from the north pole, then travelling in a circle about the north pole – distance travelled would be less than 2*pi*R).
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September 24, 2011 1:33pm
leftyliberal

@Pete: Prayer is I suspect one of the greatest placebo’s one can have. For some it’s apparently great enough that it is more effective than medicine developed by mere scientists and proven effective through controlled trials, though unfortunately these cases are not reproducible in any controlled manner.
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September 24, 2011 1:36pm
mikenmild

It might be a bit of an exaggeration to claim that Hezbollah ‘controls’ Lebanon. I thought it only controlled the bit Israel had invaded. I don’t disagree with the rest though.
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September 24, 2011 1:40pm
Scott Chris

Lee

Karl Popper apparently used the term “Scientism” to describe the dogmatic embrace of scientific methodology and the reduction of all knowledge to only that which is measurable.

Within the idea of science itself, this holds true. However, only a robot or a computer could unerringly adhere to the idea of a “cult of scientism”. (Though the Spock idea is bullshit, as emotion can be rationalized.)

I use the philosophy of science as a tool, as I believe this is the path to enlightenment, but I reserve the right to change my mind if a better idea comes along, so I don’t really subscribe to the idea of scientism.
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September 24, 2011 1:45pm
Scott Chris

leftyliberal – “That results in spherical geometry”

Cheers. I’ll look that up. I guessed that it was too obvious an idea to be original.
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September 24, 2011 1:48pm
Lee01

Scott,

“Karl Popper apparently used the term “Scientism” to describe the dogmatic embrace of scientific methodology and the reduction of all knowledge to only that which is measurable.”

And he got right. The problem is that this ideology in one form or another has been in the driving seat of the West since the nineteenth century. I don’t mean simply in the lab, I mean in the way we approach virtually everything and every problem. The term for this is technocratic bureaucracy. Its the reasoning behind the totalitarian managerial welfare state, and the industrial exploitation of the earth. It dehumanises people and desacralises nature.
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September 24, 2011 1:49pm
Scott Chris

Ed Snack

You’re right. I assumed neutrinos were pure energy like photons. Woops.

Still, what I said about photons is conventional wisdom.

Makes this OPERA ftl discovery all the more intriguing.
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September 24, 2011 1:51pm
Scott Chris

Ed Snack

Re neutrinos: Thinking it through, (finally), it’s obvious that a neutrino is not pure energy, otherwise it would be a photon. Duh me!

So it must have an elusive “god particle” if it has mass.

Oh Oh. Did someone mention God?
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September 24, 2011 2:05pm
Lee01

The technetronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen and maintain up-to-date complete files containing even the most personal information about the citizen. These files will be subject to instantaneous retrieval by the authorities.

– Excerpt from: Between Two Ages: America’s Role in the Technetronic Era, 1970
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September 24, 2011 2:14pm
Manolo

The con-man marches on, making millions in the process: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/09/23/how-many-people-watched-al-goresclimate-cast/

I bet Nick Smith was watching this crap from one of his heroes.
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September 24, 2011 2:37pm
Manolo

Europe (Germany in particular) will have to take a firmer stance and cut the lazy and hopeless Greeks loose. Not much time left.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2041201/George-Osbornes-eurozone-crisis-warning-6-weeks-save-euro.html
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September 24, 2011 2:40pm
MyNameIsJack

Lee01 (869) Says:

September 24th, 2011 at 1:49 pm
It dehumanises people and desacralises nature.

Hang on, I thought you were a xtian, now you claim you are a naturalist. Which one is it?
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September 24, 2011 2:41pm
wat dabney

No end in sight to cheap energy

“U.K. Gets Big Shale Find ”

“An area in northwest England may contain 200 trillion cubic feet of shale gas, putting it in the same league as some of the vast shale-gas plays that have transformed the U.S. energy industry…The discovery of such vast resources—200 trillion cubic feet would be enough to meet U.K. gas demand for 64 years—comes at a time when the U.K.’s conventional gas fields are in steep decline and as it is becoming increasingly dependent on imports such as liquefied natural gas from Qatar and piped gas from Norway.

The exploitation of shale gas has revolutionized American energy markets, helping the U.S. in 2009 to overtake Russia as the world’s largest gas producer. Shale now accounts for about 20% of U.S. gas production, but total output is expected to quadruple in coming years. The boom has touched off a scramble for access to acreage in the Barnett, Marcellus and Haynesville shales in the U.S., where much of the new resource is concentrated.

Now the shale boom is beginning to spread to Europe, which also boasts large reserves of unconventional gas…Cuadrilla’s announcement could lead to sharp upward revisions in estimates of Britain’s shale-gas potential. The country has traditionally ranked low on the list of European shale-gas players, with the U.S. Energy Information Administration saying earlier this year it had only 20 trillion cubic feet of technically recoverable shale-gas resources, compared with Poland’s 187 trillion cubic feet. That could now change.”

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904563904576584904139100880.html

(If you want to read the full article rather than just the opening paragraph, google for “U.K. Gets Big Shale Find” and follow the link.)
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September 24, 2011 2:44pm
reid

Jack, how’s your study of Revelations going re: what happens when people refer to Christians as xtians?

Regarding energy particles, the equation e = mc squared is an equivalence, not a translation.

Scott I know it means energy = mass times the square of the speed of light which is why a small mass of plutonium makes a very loud bang, but nothing more than that.

Can you elucidate equivalence not a translation?
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September 24, 2011 2:47pm
Lee01

“Hang on, I thought you were a xtian, now you claim you are a naturalist. Which one is it?”

Christianity teaches that creation is an icon of God, just as humans are. It is therefore worthy of care and God has given us dominion over creation with the responsibilty to ensure its well being.
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September 24, 2011 2:49pm
Pete George

Spiro Zavos suggests the reason for the Aussie vitriol is that Quade has been a bit of a stinker…

From my observation, there is goodwill to Wallaby greats such as Nick Farr-Jones, Mark Ella and John Eales. Peter FitzSimons is a pundit on Maori Television. Groups of Australians seem to be having a good time, when they are away from the games. At the games, most of the anger is directed at Cooper. And here lies the crux of the problem, in my opinion. Cooper is persona non grata with his smart-arse baiting of Richie McCaw. This behaviour is the rugby equivalent of farting in a cathedral. Cooper needs to clear the air. I reckon he should hold a media conference and do a mea culpa. The point is that the Wallabies have won two World Cups as the darlings of the local communities in Ireland and England.

Winning back the hearts and minds of New Zealanders is one of the most pressing matters facing the Wallaby coaching staff going into the finals.

They might be too busy patching up their wounded to worry about this.
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September 24, 2011 3:02pm
Scott Chris

Reid – “Can you elucidate equivalence not a translation?”

Turns out I was leading you astray. A neutrino does have mass, so your original assertion stands. In other words, I can’t explain why it doesn’t tend towards being infinitely massive as it approaches, nay, even overtakes the speed of light.

Weird.

As far as “equivalence not a translation” as it relates to photons is concerned, one would assume that if a photon is mass-less, then applied to Einstein’s formula literally:

energy = mass (0 x 0)times the speed of light, equals zero, which is plainly untrue. What it means is that energy and mass are *interchangeable* according to this formula.
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September 24, 2011 3:14pm
Scott Chris

Oops, fuck. I meant zero x speed of light x speed of light which is still zero.
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September 24, 2011 3:19pm
MyNameIsJack

reid (8,421) Says:

September 24th, 2011 at 2:47 pm
Jack, how’s your study of Revelations going re: what happens when people refer to Christians as xtians?

Nothing’s going to happen to theis Jack.

But,if you can let me know where to get the drugs Johnnie was on when he wrote that shit…
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September 24, 2011 3:20pm
wat dabney

“Christianity teaches that creation is an icon of God, just as humans are. It is therefore worthy of care and God has given us dominion over creation with the responsibilty to ensure its well being.”

To be fair Christianity also teaches us that donkeys can talk, so…
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September 24, 2011 3:36pm
Manolo

Interesting article on the incorrigible Putin: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/23/russia-targeting-western-diplomats
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September 24, 2011 3:38pm
calendar girl

Scott Chris @ 10:44 – “Wow, that was a substantive post. So what is your moral position on the Israel/Palestine conflict?”

Don’t be a prat. You’re still pouting because I called you the other day on your multiple postings of news item links without having anything substantive to say on them. Tough.

In posting “Very well said iMP” I was saying that I agreed fully with iMP’s two previous posts, i.e. they reflected my viewpoint on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. That may be too brief for someone who prefers to ramble as you do (25 comments so far today on this thread alone), but it’s clear enough for anyone with elementary comprehension skills. Sorry it doesn’t comply with your standards.
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September 24, 2011 3:48pm
Don the Kiwi

@tristanb
12.15 pm.

Every time you come out with this sort of garbage, you simply demonstrate not only your ignorance, but also your bigotry. You really are a Grade A tosser.
I’ll try to enlighten you, a little more than what Lee01 did @ 1.17 pm.

1. The Big Bang. This theory was developed by Georges LeMaitre, a Belgian Catholic priest.
2.Evolution. The Jesuits have always been at the forefront of the development of evolution. Several years ago, the
Pope stated that those who ascribe to the 6,000 y/o earth and do not accept the scientific evidence of
evolution are deluding themselves.
3. Non-existence of Heaven. Because Heaven is not a physical but meta-physical place, empirical evidence cannot prove
or disprove its existence. However, approx. 4.5 billion people here on earth disagree with you. So it
becomes a matter of faith (without getting involved in philosophical debate)
4.Uselessness of Prayer. Once again, 4.5 billiom people would disagree. But even atheistic psychologists agree that it does
have a beneficial psychological effect, so you’re wrong again.
5. Ending Slavery.In the Old Testament Jewish times, slavery was discouraged, as it was in NT times and spoken against
from the earliest days of Christianity. Finally in 1830? William Wilberforce, a British Christian politician
succeeded in getting slavery abolished in the British Empire, and the world followed.
6. Non-central Earth. Nicolaus Copernicus proclaimed the Heliocentricity in a book in the 15th. century – he was a Catholic
priest.
7. Spherical Earth. Even the ancient Jews knew the earth was an orb as well as the other planets – flat earthers were old
pagan superstitious sailors.
8.Accountability of Child molesting priests. Check the John Jay Report. The problem was one of homosexuality – not child molestation. Further, the greatest degree of chilf abuse happens in schools – priests are way down the list. And besides, the perpetrators have been made accountable.
9. The existence of atoms. what ??? It would appear that none exist in your brain.

So it is patently obvious that you are the one with no intelligence. Educate yourself before you run off at the keyboard with your unsubstantiated drivle – you will learn something, and people may take a bit more notice of you. You wanker.
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September 24, 2011 4:05pm
Scott Chris

calendar girl – “Don’t be a prat”

Heh, not quite, though I did enjoy hoisting you on your own petard as you remind me of that airhead Deborah Coddington for some reason.
You accused me of posting unsubstantive comments,*as well as* multiple postings, so I was merely holding you to your own standard.

“they reflected my viewpoint on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict”

The substance (or lack thereof) was Stringer’s.

“25 comments”

So what? I’ve been tossing up ideas and responding to comments directed to me. If you could be bothered reading them, you may learn something.

Have a nice day 😛
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September 24, 2011 4:08pm
chiz

reid:Do neutrino’s have mass?

Current thinkingis that dthe different types of neutrino can oscillate between each other, so that an electron neutrino can turn into a muon neutrino and back again. This can only happen if neutrinoes have mass. Experiments show that their masses must be very very small however.

I thought relativity says exceeding speed of light is impossible because mass increases at lightspeed approaches ultimately to infinite mass and this is why it can’t – (apparently) – be broken?

Sort of correct.

The FTL claims have been getting a lot of media attention and most of the reports are getting it wrong. Relativity does not forbid objects from travelling faster than light. What it does forbid is any object that travels slower than light from being accelerated past the speed of light. If a particle has, since its creation, always travelled faster than light there is no problem with relativity.
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September 24, 2011 4:10pm
chiz

Don the Kiwi:4.Uselessness of Prayer. Once again, 4.5 billiom people would disagree. But even atheistic psychologists agree that it does have a beneficial psychological effect

But it has no beneficial effect beyond a placebo.

5. Ending Slavery.In the Old Testament Jewish times, slavery was discouraged, as it was in NT times and spoken against
from the earliest days of Christianity. Finally in 1830? William Wilberforce, a British Christian politician succeeded in getting slavery abolished in the British Empire, and the world followed.

Many christians opposed Wilberforce.

7. Spherical Earth. Even the ancient Jews knew the earth was an orb as well as the other planets – flat earthers were old
pagan superstitious sailors.

Aristotle taught everyone that the Earth was round. Nevertheless we have records of early christians debating whether the Earthwas round or flat.
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September 24, 2011 4:16pm
Pauleastbay

Just spent the day at our inter marae rugby and netball tournament, Pa Wars.

Waioweka somehow managed to rope in Liam Meesam and Colin Bourke to play for them.

Its not until you see top footballers up close and how they play the game that you realise the skill and physicality they bring to it. Quite amazing to watch them directing lesser talents about the footy field. A good day.
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September 24, 2011 4:18pm
reid

But,if you can let me know where to get the drugs Johnnie was on when he wrote that shit…

Why certainly Jack.

It’s called church.

However I understand that in order to become a part of the Bible especially the last book you have had to attend quite a lot and done a lot of other “religious” things as well, so I’m not sure you’ll ever quite make it Jack but don’t feel bad, you’re not alone.
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September 24, 2011 4:22pm
reid

The FTL claims have been getting a lot of media attention and most of the reports are getting it wrong. Relativity does not forbid objects from travelling faster than light. What it does forbid is any object that travels slower than light from being accelerated past the speed of light. If a particle has, since its creation, always travelled faster than light there is no problem with relativity.

Thanks chiz, most appreciated.
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September 24, 2011 4:27pm
Scott Chris

chiz – “If a particle has, since its creation, always travelled faster than light there is no problem with relativity.”

Problem with the OPERA neutrinos is they have only just been generated. How do you explain this?

“To create the neutrino beam, a proton beam from the Super Proton Synchrotron at CERN is directed onto a graphite target, creating particles called pions and kaons.”

http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/Research/CNGS-en.html

note: This article was written prior to the recent breakthrough release.
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September 24, 2011 4:33pm
chiz

Assuming the results are true, which I doubt, then there would be no problem if the neutrinoes were travelling faster than light when generated.
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September 24, 2011 4:39pm
reid

chiz how do they get boosted to faster than speed of light in the first place as opposed to your common-or-garden neutrino or is it now the case that this is first time their speed has been measurable and so they’re all like that?

I know the big-bang had a super-expand-amo phase in it (is that its scientific name?) but is that where these came from?
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September 24, 2011 4:47pm
chiz

As I said I don’t think the results are true. But, supposing they are, then the Neutrinoes aren’t being boosted past the speed of light, they are simply travelling faster than the speed of light when they are created in the parent particle’s decay.

The universe is believed to have gone through an inflationary phase very very very very very shortly after it was created when the universe expanded very very very fast but it that case it was space itself that was expanding.
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September 24, 2011 4:52pm
Scott Chris

chiz – “Assuming the results are true, which I doubt”

The CERN scientists, many of whom are at the forefront of particle physics research, have spent months checking instrument calibration and other possible phenomenal interference, so it will be interesting to see what the peer review process yields. By all accounts, the experiments are replicable.

We’re not talking about a couple of unknown scientists in Lithuania here. This is CERN, though unconnected with the LHC.

The history of science shows us that one paradigm is inevitably superseded by the next. That is why this could be a once in a lifetime event, in which the rules as we know them must be rewritten, just as relativity explained the mercury anomaly that Newtonian physics failed to explain.
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September 24, 2011 4:54pm
reid

The history of science shows us that one paradigm is inevitably superseded by the next. That is why this could be a once in a lifetime event, in which the rules as we know them must be rewritten, just as relativity explained the mercury anomaly that Newtonian physics failed to explain.

It’s amusing, ironic and tragic all at the same time that science reporting is regarding this discovery with the skepticism any new discovery deserves for that is what science is: to be skeptical – whereas science reporting regards and always has AGW “science” as nothing short of gospel truth and labels “deniers” as heretics.

How very peculiar.

Golly. I wonder when it’s going to occur to your average Gweenie that possibli the vewy people who advocate Gween also have lots of $$$$$$$$$ in Gween technologies and I wonder what’s going to happen after that penny dwops?
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September 24, 2011 5:10pm
Pauleastbay

Kiwiblog is great

the day started a nice simple chat about about the not too taxing topic regarding the merits of football players.

Ya pop out for a couple of hours and find the middle east situation has been solved, moved through relegion, again and a bit of quantum astro or something physics.

I wonder if any of us know what we are talking about really, apart from Don the Kiwi who posted a bloody good comment at 4.05 pm
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September 24, 2011 5:13pm
tristanb

Every time you come out with this sort of garbage, you simply demonstrate not only your ignorance, but also your bigotry. You really are a Grade A tosser.

Grade A, eh?

You’re misusing the term bigot. I’m a bigot for mocking someone’s ideas? I’ll accept “tosser”, “wanker” and even “arsehole”, but I’m not a bigot.

Or at least no more than those calling the Greens “watermelons”, or those that characterise National voters as selfish silver-spooners, or those who characterise all Muslims as “terrorists”.
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September 24, 2011 5:17pm
Other_Andy

Take a drug test or lose benefits?
Proposal raises fears
Addiction treatment services are raising the alarm about a proposal to penalise welfare beneficiaries who refuse to undergo drug tests or addiction treatment.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10753979

Do Addiction treatment services protest out of self interest?
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September 24, 2011 5:24pm
mikenmild

It is possible the addiction treatment people think that the proposal would not work.
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September 24, 2011 5:44pm
Falafulu Fisi

Reid asked?
Falafulu, do neutrino’s have mass? I thought relativity says exceeding speed of light is impossible because mass increases at lightspeed approaches ultimately to infinite mass and this is why it can’t – (apparently) – be broken?

The existence of neutrino is inferred indirectly from experiments because to observe it directly is something impossible. There are lots of physical observables in physics that are proposed to exist in this manner (indirectly inferred). Similar to the claim of particle duality of photon (or matter particles as electrons, protons, etc,…) which exists as either particle or wave, they are being inferred to exist, but there has no experimental evidence to prove that it (particle) actually exist as 2 identities simultaneously. The outcome is dependent on the observer (ie, the experimenter) should he decide to measure particle property, then of course he will observe particle properties (point trajectory – or wave collapse) or should he decide to measure wave property then he will of course observe wave properties (as interference).

Neutrino has been proposed to contain small mass but that hasn’t actually been confirmed (either indirectly inferred or directly observed). As you pointed out correctly, if it has a non-zero mass, then it is impossible for neutrino to attain the speed of light or faster, since its energy will be infinite according to relativity. If neutrino has zero mass, then there’s no violation of relativity if it travels at speed of light. This latest claim of faster than light for neutrino is something that I personally have to wait for more experimental evidence before jumping the bandwagon. I have read about the press release in the late 80s when 2 physical chemists Prof. Pons & Prof. Fleischmann announced announced their discovery of cold fusion, despite that Quantum Mechanics says that the temperature where cold fusion supposed to take place (according to Pons/Fleischmann) is impossible. Either Quantum Mechanics is false or the 2 scientists were wrong. It turned out that QM was right after all and the 2 scientists were completely wrong. Other scientists replicated the Pons/Fleischmann experiment and they observed no cold fusion. It turned out that the 2 scientists has some flaws in their experimental setups/apparatuses which they had completely missed.
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September 24, 2011 5:51pm
Other_Andy

“It is possible the addiction treatment people think that the proposal would not work.”

It is possible…
It is also possible I will win the Lotto tonight.

How successful are the Addiction treatment services?
I am for a mixed solution.
Get the treatment.
If that doesn’t work, lose the benefit.
Call it an incentive for people to succeed with the treatment.
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September 24, 2011 5:54pm
MyNameIsJack

Yes O_A, of course every applicant for a benefit shoud be drug tested. Of course, they’re nothing but lazy drug abusers, aren’t they. And I am sure you have the research to confirm this.

It’s why the Rethugican Governor of South Carolina wants drug testing.

Gov. Nikki Haley (R) told the Lexington Rotary Club Thursday that she wants South Carolinians to undergo drug screenings before they can receive unemployment benefits.

“I so want drug testing,” she said. “I so want it.”

“The problem is that I’ve got to make sure the numbers work… It’s certainly not off the table for me. It’s something that I’ve been wanting since the first day I walked into office, but we do have not make sure it’s not politically popular, it’s actually a good feasible thing to do.”

Yes, just like you, she “so wants it” even though she has no evidence it is warranted or workable.

Maybe she, and you, should take a look at Florida where there is a drug testing requirement

The law, which took effect July 1, requires applicants to pay for their own drug tests. Those who test drug-free are reimbursed by the state, and those who fail cannot receive benefits for a year.

So, what’s been the outcome in Florida?

2% of tested failed, 2% didn’t complete the test for unspecified reasons, leaving the State to reimburse the 96% drug free. Not very good economics,

Cost of the tests averages about $30. Assuming that 1,000 to 1,500 applicants take the test every month, the state will owe about $28,800-$43,200 monthly in reimbursements to those who test drug-free.

That compares with roughly $32,200-$48,200 the state may save on one month’s worth of rejected applicants.

But don’t let that stop you, I am sure you get a warm feeling in your pants looking down on those less fortunate than you, making suspected criminals out of people who just need a helping hand.

http://www2.tbo.com/news/politics/2011/aug/24/3/welfare-drug-testing-yields-2-percent-positive-res-ar-252458/
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September 24, 2011 5:57pm
Chthoniid

5. Ending Slavery.In the Old Testament Jewish times, slavery was discouraged, as it was in NT times and spoken against
from the earliest days of Christianity. Finally in 1830? William Wilberforce, a British Christian politician
succeeded in getting slavery abolished in the British Empire, and the world followed.

1833. An act that was clearly so inspirational that France followed suit in err, 1794 ;).

But in terms of Black Slavery, I’m afraid it persisted for a long time in Christendom under the biblical authority of Genesis 9:20-27. Blacks were believed to be the descendants of Canaan. American Civil War museums sometimes have the religious pamphlets written in defense of antebellum slavery on display based on this.

I could mention the contribution of the atheist Thomas Paine, his tract against slavery in 1775, and his later influence on the First French Republic.
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September 24, 2011 6:02pm
Other_Andy

Yep MNJ

We don’t want this to happen now, would we?

“Whakatane man Charlie James, who was addicted for 10 years to smoking cannabis and tobacco through a bowl of water, says failing a drug test when he applied for a job with Kawerau wood processor Kajavala Forestry gave him the strength to finally kick the habit.”
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September 24, 2011 6:04pm
Falafulu Fisi

Added to my comment above about physical chemists Prof. Pons & Prof. Fleischmann, a Departmental colleague of them pointed out to the 2 excited scientists at the time to conduct more experiments in order to solidly prove their conclusion because what they were proposing meant one thing only and that is to de-throne Quantum Mechanics (ie, QM theory must be re-written or thrown out completely because their discovery contradicted QM). However, QM survived, while the 2 scientists were thrown out from their academic careers.
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September 24, 2011 6:06pm
Griff

Great idea lets kick the wacko drug tossers of the dole real smart. Addicts will just stop no more druggies.

Wish I was that smart to think its a good idea to actually enforce an illegal lifestyle on these wackos. I guess you like more muggings, more burglaries, more drugs being sold, more crime .
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September 24, 2011 6:09pm
wreck1080

Why doesn’t NZ have any authority to investigate share fraud?

Brian Gaynor points out very dodgy behaviour. . .

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10753959

I’ve never heard of these Brett Wilkinson and John Sorensen turkeys . . . But, it sounds like they have been doing some seriously dodgy stuff.

No wonder people have little faith in our share market.
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September 24, 2011 6:50pm
nasska

The CIA lost track of one of its operatives, and so calls in one
of their top spy hunters.

The CIA boss says, “All I can tell you is that his name is Murphy
and that he’s somewhere in Ireland. If you think you’ve located
him, tell him the code words,
‘The weather forecast calls for mist in the morning.’

If it’s really him, he’ll answer, ‘Yes, and for mist at noon as well.'”

So the spy hunter goes to Ireland and stops in a pub in Dublin.
He says to the bartender, “Maybe you can help me. I’m looking
for a guy named Murphy.”

The bartender replies, “You’re going to have to be more specific
because, around here, there are lots of guys named Murphy.

There’s Murphy the Baker, who runs the pastry shop on the next
block. There’s Murphy the Banker, who’s president of our local
savings bank. There’s Murphy the Blacksmith, who works at the
stables. And, as a matter of fact, my name is Murphy, too.”

Hearing this, the spy hunter figures he might as well try the code
words on bartender, so he says, “The weather forecast calls for
mist in the morning.”

The bartender replies, “Oh, you’re looking for Murphy the Spy.
He lives right down the street, but he usually doesn’t come in
here till around 8 PM.”
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September 24, 2011 7:00pm
Other_Andy

“Yes O_A, of course every applicant for a benefit shoud be drug tested. Of course, they’re nothing but lazy drug abusers, aren’t they. And I am sure you have the research to confirm this.”

You should actally read the article before you blow hot air…

55 % of young male beneficiaries aged 16-30 (33 per cent of young male non-beneficiaries) used an illegal drug in the past year
32 % of all beneficiaries (18 per cent of all non-beneficiaries) used an illegal drug in the past year
12 % of beneficiaries aged 25-30 (3 per cent of non-beneficiaries aged 25-30) abuse or depend on cannabis by age 30.
2 % of beneficiaries are on benefits because of an alcohol or drug addiction.

Understanding the issues around NZ’s welfare reform and substance abuse policy
http://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/policy/welfare-reform-and-substance-use
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September 24, 2011 7:04pm
reid

Thanks Falafulu, most appreciated, in particular for your plain English sans equations.

I recall that cold fusion issue. The inability to replicate the results was rather unfortunate.

Interesting though, we’re all looking forward to further results I’m sure.
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September 24, 2011 7:18pm
Viking2

Gees you guys have created a boring GD today. Go find something else to do with your day.

This frustrated wife buys a pair of crutchless knickers

in an attempt to spice up her dead sex-life.

She puts them on, together with a short skirt and sits

on the lounge opposite her husband.

At strategic moments she crosses her legs ……. enough times till her
husband says…….

“Are you wearing crutchless knickers?”

“Y-e-s,” she answers with a seductive smile.

“Thank Christ for that……. I thought the stuffing was coming out of
the lounge suite..”
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September 24, 2011 7:41pm
F E Smith

Don’t forget that slavery was legal on and off in the England at all. It was abolished in the British Empire in 1833, but there is a strong argument that in the UK itself it was finally decided as being illegal in 1772 (see Somersett’s case), which referenced earlier decisions that slavery was void in England. Hence why the slave trade was more the issue, with full abolition second.

The concept and practice of indentureship is pretty close, though, and that persisted for some time, I think.

And not to forget that slavery persists in some countries today, although I won’t name them, or their connecting factor.
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September 24, 2011 7:43pm
nasska

Morning after the Stag night.

Bruce woke up with a killer hangover after attending his best mate’s stag night. He didn’t even remember how he got home. He looked at the clock and it was 11.30.

What day is it? Thursday.. His missus must have gone to work.

As he struggled into consciousness through the fog of a pounding headache, his stomach plummeted as he wondered what the hell he did last night..

He forced himself to open his eyes, and the first thing he saw was a couple of aspirins next to a glass of water on the side table. And, next to them, a little vase of sweet peas, freshly picked from the garden.

He sat up. The bedroom was clean and tidy, – there was no trail of drunkenly abandoned clothes, fresh air was coming in through the window and all was serene. He stumbled to the bathroom, also pristine, and, squinting gingerly into the mirror, saw that he had a black eye. This was not a good sign, but no memories were returning.

As he concentrated hard on getting the world into focus, he saw a post-it note stuck on the corner of the mirror. It was written in red, with little hearts on it and a kiss from his missus.

‘I’ll ring your boss and tell them you won’t be in today. Breakfast is in the oven. Try to eat something and go back to bed for the morning.

There’s cricket on TV this afternoon. Take it easy today, hope your eye doesn’t hurt too much. See you tonight. I love you, darling! Love,

Sheila. x ‘

He stumbled to the kitchen and sure enough, there was hot breakfast, steaming hot coffee and the newspaper. His teenaged son was sitting at the table, eating.

Bruce, bracing himself, asked his son what happened the previous night.

Well, you came home after 3 A.M., pissed as a parrot and out of your mind. You fell over the coffee table and broke it, and then you vomited in the hallway, and got that black eye when you ran into the door. ‘

Confused, Bruce asked his son, ‘So, why is everything in such perfect order, aspirins by the bed, a nice note from Mum and breakfast waiting for me?’

His son replied, ‘Oh THAT!… Mum dragged you to the bedroom, and when she tried to take your trousers off, you screamed,

‘Leave me alone you slapper…, I’m married!!’

Broken Coffee Table $250

Hot Breakfast$3.50

Two Aspirins 20 cents

Saying the right thing, at the right time……PRICELESS
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September 24, 2011 7:50pm
Don the Kiwi

Agreed F E Smith.

ll I am saying is that it was Wilberforce who set up the defining moment in Britain to have slavery abolished – I am not claiming that that erased the intent from all in England to eliminate slavery – nor elswhere.

@ Chthoniid 6.02 pm.

Agreed. My point was in refutation of tristanb who seemed to claim slavery was a peculiarly christian vice. And I certainly do nor discount the efforts of other secular, including atheistic politicians and prominent people to eliminate slavery.

Ah yes, the French in 1794 – Libete, Egalite, Fraternite – the cry of the French Revolutionaries; who had by that time set about imprisoning and guillotining those who disagreed with them and persecuting those who were sufficiently organised to repel them.
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September 24, 2011 8:14pm
Don the Kiwi

nasska.

Very cool 😆
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September 24, 2011 8:17pm
Don the Kiwi

Gotta go – AB’s v France in 10 mins.

Go the AB’s —– Allez le Bleu. 😉
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September 24, 2011 8:19pm
Griff

Could be a good read?
The Better Angels of Our Nature, Steven Pinker
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10753920

“It’s not true, says Pinker, that man in primitive societies, being at one with his environment, was less inclined towards violent struggle. Nor was the church-focused village a more peaceful environment than the model that replaced it, the impersonalised cities of the Industrial Revolution. In short, the book is a corrective to the widely held belief that humanity is locked into some sort of moral decline.”
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September 24, 2011 9:15pm
Scott Chris

Good win for the Blacks. Warriors up 14-12 at half time, playing well.
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September 24, 2011 10:46pm
TimG_Oz

Reid … I’m off to NZ tomorrow, and I’m taking that book. If you can send your mailing address to DPF to forward on to me, I’ll pop it in the mail … cheers
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September 24, 2011 11:12pm
Shunda barunda

Here come the warriors!! wooo hooo!! 2 minutes to go!!!
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September 24, 2011 11:35pm
Shunda barunda

He’s got the conversion!!!
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September 24, 2011 11:35pm
Scott Chris

WARRIORS WIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNN!!!!!

WOOOOOOHOOOOOOO!!

Grand Final Against Manly And Looking Good.

20 – 12

Best I’ve ever seen them play, especially second half.
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September 24, 2011 11:36pm
Shunda barunda

Bloody fantastic!!
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September 24, 2011 11:38pm
Mick Mac

F E Smith (1,197) Says:
September 24th, 2011 at 7:43 pm

Islam.
& they’ve all sat (or voted for others too) on the UNHRC
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September 24, 2011 11:41pm
Jimbob

Goodness knows when I am going to get to sleep tonight.
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September 24, 2011 11:42pm
reid

Tim will do, thank you.
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September 25, 2011 12:03am
Mick Mac

Full Transcript Of Netanyahu Speech At UN General Assembly
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/article.php?p=104261
(Friday, September 23rd, 2011)

Truth will out even if you close your eyes.
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September 25, 2011 12:25am

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