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September 18, 2011 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 18 September 2011

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General Debate

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Longknives

I’m Agnostic, by the way, before anyone starts ranting and calling me a religious nutter. I have no idea myself but just don’t know how anybody can claim to know all the answers to the ‘mysteries of life’…
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September 18, 2011 5:19pm
Scott Chris

Griff – “3rd year philosophy student is my guess”

Heh. Watch out for the ad hominem style of diminishing you’re opponents status Griff. It’s not a valid argument.
It would be easy for me to do the same, and neither of us would learn anything.
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September 18, 2011 5:20pm
reid

Certainly my observation of myself and other humans is that we are selfish to the core, with the one redeeming feature. Compassion.

IMO we are driven by fear, Scott. People either move toward pleasure or away from pain on any and every given issue and it’s what’s in us built by our experiences that generates pain vs pleasure toward any given issue which determines our behaviour and passion either toward it or away from it.

When I say we are driven by fear, we fear pain and will do much much more to avoid it, than we ever will to move positively toward pleasure. That’s just the way we are built. The more people are aware of and recognise their fears for where they are and what they are and why they are there is the extent to which people are successful in any given thing.

What usually determines one’s career for example is that on balance one gets more pleasure out of it than not and it relates to something in your mind or with your hands that you became interested in when young and just kept going. This gave you confidence early on because you never had a painful experience early on when first becoming interested and when you started having painful episodes on balance by the time you had them you by then had more pleasure than pain.

This is what motivates people to do every big and little thing – pain and pleasure. It’s not intellectual, it’s emotional.
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September 18, 2011 5:26pm
Manolo

The emperor has no clothes: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0911/63754.html
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September 18, 2011 5:28pm
wat dabney

“I’m Agnostic, by the way, before anyone starts ranting and calling me a religious nutter. I have no idea myself but just don’t know how anybody can claim to know all the answers to the ‘mysteries of life“”

Are you agnostic about the Tooth Fairy?

Are you agnostic about Santa Claus?

Are you agnostic about Russell’s teapot? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot )

It’s a question of what it’s rational to believe.
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September 18, 2011 5:28pm
MyNameIsJack

Longknives (438) Says:

September 18th, 2011 at 5:13 pm
“Well, what else would you call someone who clings to belief that flies in the face of knowledge?”

What knowledge is this?? Our knowledge of what happens to our ‘spirit/soul’ after we die?? I can’t seem to find any scientific record of this…

What is this spirit/soul of which you speak? Can you show me one so I may study it?

I’m certainly not a religious man, but I find the arrogance of Athiests and their ‘Science has an answer for everything’ bollocks quite grating.

I am not sure if many, let alone any, people claim “science has an answer for everything”, but right now it is the best we have to understand and describe the natural world, you know, the one we actually live in, rather than the fantasy worlds of religion.
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September 18, 2011 5:30pm
Griff

It was not an attack sorry if you found it so I doubt many on here would conform to preconceived ideas.
I would not perceive saying you were a third year philosophy student as diminishing you’re opponents status.
Having Tertiary education even in Maori studies is still some thing to be respected.
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September 18, 2011 5:32pm
wat dabney

“I’m certainly not a religious man, but I find the arrogance of Athiests and their ‘Science has an answer for everything’ bollocks quite grating.”

You have it backwards. It is religion which purports to have an (unchanging) answer for everything (“god did it”.)

The strength of science is that knowledge is always provisional and it doesn’t claim have an answer for many things. And it doesn’t presume that those gaps in knowledge somehow demand the existence of invisible pixies by way of “explanation.”
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September 18, 2011 5:40pm
Scott Chris

“When I say we are driven by fear, we fear pain and will do much much more to avoid it, than we ever will to move positively toward pleasure.”

Yes I agree that fear of whatever adverse consequence is certainly more incentive to behave in a certain way, rather than to seek hedonistic pleasure. Thirst and hunger, which we modern humans have little real experience of are also powerful incentives.

But we instinctively organize our lives to avoid adverse consequence and secure food and shelter by banding together in mutually self-interested groups.

I group all these criteria into the catagory “self interest” and to have absence of fear and food is ‘good’. Sex and laughter also self-interestedly ‘good’.
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September 18, 2011 5:41pm
reid

An excellent doco on how the Dems and Republicans prevent a 3rd party candidate like Ross Perot from ever emerging again, thus monopolising power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbF5loRF61U&feature=youtu.be
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September 18, 2011 5:42pm
reid

Scott my central thesis is our reaction on any given issue is not rational, it’s irrational. We are not rational beings and you can see that all the time.
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September 18, 2011 5:47pm
MyNameIsJack

Scott Chris (1,263) Says:

September 18th, 2011 at 5:15 pm

I haven’t resolved that in myself, whether or not altruism and compassion are still ultimately self interest. I cannot speak for others.
Certainly my observation of myself and other humans is that we are selfish to the core, with the one redeeming feature. Compassion.

Someone thought you were a 3rd year Philosophy student, sounds more like either a 1st year or just a wannabe who read Sartre under teh covers by torchlight.

It has been well shown that altruism is an evolved trait, that when the group co-operates it prospers and thus has better survivability than the bunch of Libertarians three caves down.

Yes, as groups expand there does seem to be an increase in selfishness, perhaps because the the group as a wholecan still prosper in spite of a few selfish individuals.

I’d also take issue with reid’s statement IMO we are driven by fear, Scott. People either move toward pleasure or away from pain on any and every given issue.

This leaves us in need of an explanation for the heroic, self sacrificing acts that we know humans are capable of. Wether it is a fireman running into a burning building, a policeman staring down a mob, a mother who will use her body to protect a baby or an Antarctic explorer who goes out for a walk, and may be some time, humans are capable, when the need arises, of moving toward pain.
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September 18, 2011 5:52pm
reid

The strength of science is that knowledge is always provisional and it doesn’t claim have an answer for many things.

Unless it’s AGW “science” wat, then it’s not provisional at all, it’s completely utterly and absolutely final, settled and embedded in hardened-steel chamber inside a kilometre of bomb-hardened concrete, it’s that final. And anyone who “claims” otherwise is just an absolute wanking fucking denier and should be called as such by anyone listening, anywhere in the world at any time. So apparently, sometimes “science” does claim to have an answer, after all.

This leaves us in need of an explanation for the heroic, self sacrificing acts that we know humans are capable of.

Jack that’s the point. By overcoming those irrational fears you learn and grow. Most people aren’t even aware they exist, let alone what they are and where they come from, in each area. They’re sub-conscious based on emotional connections we made as we lived life.
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September 18, 2011 5:53pm
Griff

science is not settled or its called a law
AGW Is not settled however the debates from the denialist. usually are spurious and not based on science.
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September 18, 2011 6:03pm
Scott Chris

Jack – “Someone thought you were a 3rd year Philosophy student, sounds more like either a 1st year or just a wannabe who read Sartre under teh covers by torchlight.”

What has that got to do with my argument? I am not my argument, so what is your rationale in trying to make a point by attacking my credibility?

The basis of reasonable discourse is to define the premise of your idea and apply it to a hypothetical problem. Are you interested in truth, or point scoring?

FYI Jack;

“An ad hominem is an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person supporting it”

Please address this issue before we debate your assertions about altruism, and try not to be obtuse or abusive.
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September 18, 2011 6:10pm
MyNameIsJack

Jesusonafuckingsurfboard Scott, get over yourself, lighten up a little, its not sheep stations, you know.
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September 18, 2011 6:15pm
Griff

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/altruism-biological/
“In evolutionary biology, an organism is said to behave altruistically when its behavior benefits other organisms, at a cost to itself. The costs and benefits are measured in terms of reproductive fitness, or expected number of offspring. So by behaving altruistically, an organism reduces the number of offspring it is likely to produce itself, but boosts the number that other organisms are likely to produce. This biological notion of altruism is not identical to the everyday concept. In everyday parlance, an action would only be called ‘altruistic’ if it was done with the conscious intention of helping another. But in the biological sense there is no such requirement”
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September 18, 2011 6:25pm
2boyz

When can electoral hoardings go up, noticed a couple of Kris Faafoi Campaign images just off SH1 near the Porirua turn offs today.

Cheers
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September 18, 2011 6:30pm
Scott Chris

Jack – “Jesusonafuckingsurfboard Scott”

Jack, you said you were interested in rational debate. I was merely defining what that means for you. 🙂
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September 18, 2011 6:55pm
nasska

A jumbo jet is making its final approach to Auckland International Airport.
The pilot comes on the intercom, ‘This is your Captain. We’re on our final descent . I want to thank you for flying with us today and hope you enjoy your stay in Auckland.
But then he forgets to switch off the intercom, and now the whole plane can hear his conversation from the cockpit.
The co-pilot can be heard saying to the pilot, ‘So, Skip, whatcha got planned while we’re here?’
‘Well,’ says the captain, ‘first I’m gonna check into the hotel, take a big crap….
Then I’m gonna take that new stewardess with the huge boobs out for dinner, I’m gonna wine and dine her, take her back to my room and root her senseless all night long.’
Aghast and amused, everyone on the plane hears this and immediately begins looking up and down the aisle, trying to figure out who this new stewardess is that the pilot’s talking about.
Meanwhile, the new stewardess is seated at the very back of the plane.
She is so embarrassed that she starts running toward the cockpit to turn the intercom off.
Halfway down the aisle, she trips over an old lady’s bag and down she goes. The old lady leans over and says: ‘No need to hurry, dear………….He’s gotta land the plane and take a shit first….’
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September 18, 2011 7:00pm
Scott Chris

“It has been well shown that altruism is an evolved trait, that when the group co-operates it prospers and thus has better survivability than the bunch of Libertarians three caves down.”

I agree. The conversation I was having with Reid concerned first principles derived from a pantheist assumption. The terms are very simple at that stage and are primarily concerned with defining ‘good’ and ‘self interest’. We had reached the point of discussing altruism and compassion when you began reading I presume. Evolution had not evolved yet in our discussion.

Regarding the rest of your assertions regarding altruism, despite the irrelevance of them at that point in our discussion, I’m inclined to agree.

Finally, I think you are confusing pomposity with the rigour of formal argument which excludes invective and rancour.

I’m not interested in a pissing contest.
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September 18, 2011 7:11pm
MyNameIsJack

jesusonawakeboard, you really are a first class plonker, eh?

I’m sorry the discussion “evolved” beyond where you’d got to, sometimes things just ned to move a long.
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September 18, 2011 7:14pm
Monique Watson

One for Raybon:

Three men are sitting on a bench. One’s a Texan, one’s a Muslim, and the last is an Apache. The Indian is rather glum and says, “Once my people were many, but now we are few.” The Muslim puffs up and says, “Once my people were few, but now we are many millions.” The Texan adjusts his hat, finishes rolling a smoke, leans back in his place and drawls, “That’s ’cause we ain’t played cowboys and Muslims yet.”

I think that one will offend everyone but cripples and women. Have a good week.
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September 18, 2011 7:32pm
Scott Chris

Jack – couple of links if you are interested in debate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason
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September 18, 2011 7:38pm
Scott Chris

“I’m sorry the discussion “evolved” beyond where you’d got to, sometimes things just ned to move a long.”

Perhaps you are referring to the discussion you wished to have, rather than the one that was taking place.
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September 18, 2011 7:40pm
nasska

A guy goes into a police station to report his wife as missing.

“So, what does she look like then?” asks the constable on duty.

“Well, she’s 18 stone, 5 foot 6, has dyed-blonde hair going black at the roots, a big nose, pointy ears, an oily complexion, acne, fat ankles, droopy tits … she’s also cross-eyed and speaks with a lisping stutter … on second thoughts, don’t bother, Officer, I’m sure she’ll turn up.”
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September 18, 2011 7:43pm
Scott Chris

Monique

Not offensive. Just not very funny. Are you a Christian by any chance?
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September 18, 2011 7:48pm
MT_Tinman

Monique, I laughed.

A fellow has been single all his life, lucky in life but not in love. Finally he meets the woman of his dreams.

He proposes.

She tells him before she can answer she must know some things.

“First I need a home in Fendalton. Nothing flash, an acre backing onto the Avon will do”

“Done.” he says.

“Second I must have my own bedroom, bathroom and office in that house.”

“Already organised” he told her “In fact you will have your own maid and chauffeur as well”.

“Wonderful!”

Then she looked at him sideways “Sex?”.

“Infrequently” he replied”

She hesitated then questioned “Is that one word or two?”
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September 18, 2011 8:33pm
nasska

A pregnant Irish woman from Dublin is involved in a car
accident and falls into a deep coma. She’s asleep for nearly six
months, when she wakes up she sees that she is no longer
pregnant and frantically asks the doctor about her baby.
The doctor replies, “Ma’am you had twins! a boy and a girl.
Your Uncle from Cork came in and named them.”

The woman thinks to herself, “Oh No, not my Uncle…
he’s a bloody idiot! She asks the doctor,
“Well, what’s the girl’s name?”

“Denise.”

“Wow, that’s not a bad name, I like it! What’s the boy’s name?”

“Denephew.”
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September 18, 2011 8:50pm
Scott Chris

An old man was laying on his death bed. With only hours to live, he suddenly noticed the scent of chocolate chip cookies coming from the kitchen.
With his last bit of energy, the old man pulled himself out from his bed, across the floor to the stairs, and down the stairs to the kitchen. There, the old man’s wife was baking chocolate chip cookies. With his last ounce of energy, the old man reached for a cookie.
His wife, however, quickly smacked him across the back of his hand, and exclaimed, “Leave them alone, they’re for the funeral!”
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September 18, 2011 8:52pm
Scott Chris

This guy comes home from work one day to find his dog with the neighbor’s pet rabbit in his mouth. The rabbit is very dead and the guy panics.
He thinks the neighbors are going to hate him forever, so he takes the dirty, chewed-up rabbit into the house, gives it a bath, blow-dries its fur, and puts the rabbit back into the cage at the neighbor’s house, hoping that they will think it died of natural causes.
A few days later, the neighbor is outside and asks the guy, “Did you hear that Fluffy died?”
The guy stumbles around and says, “Um.. no.. um.. what happened?”
The neighbor replies, “We just found him dead in his cage one day, but the weird thing is that the day after we buried him we went outside and someone had dug him up, gave him a bath and put him back into the cage.
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September 18, 2011 8:56pm
reid

This is just wrong

http://futureoftech.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/09/14/7765055-the-wild-possibilities-of-printing-food

And this is just right

http://www.snotr.com/video/7331/The_Living_Bridge
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September 18, 2011 8:57pm
Luc Hansen

Scott Chris (1,271) Says:
September 18th, 2011 at 1:07 pm
RightNow

I think Luc does the warmists cause harm by using unsubtle propaganda. I’m not sure whose side he’s on really, because, like MNIJ, he won’t engage in rational debate.

wtf?

You mean posting links like http://www.columbia.edu/~mhs119/SeaLevel/ is unsubtle propaganda?

RightNow appears to have a problem with understanding that a short term blip does not obviate the long term trend. I may get my wording wrong from time to time, but I present science, not propaganda.

And a full explanation of the current slowing in sea level rise can be read here: http://arxiv.org/abs/1105.0968v2

Sea level is rising. That’s the scientific truth.

Scott, dry off behind your ears.
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September 18, 2011 10:59pm
Luc Hansen

By the way, Scott, I regard “warmist” as an ad hominem. I advocate not for warming, but for the ceasing of the warming we are inflicting on the planet.
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September 18, 2011 11:03pm
Griff

problem with understanding that a short term blip
http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/
Arctic sea ice appears to have reached its lowest extent for the year. The minimum ice extent was the second lowest in the satellite record, after 2007, and continues the decadal trend of rapidly decreasing summer sea ice.
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September 19, 2011 6:08am
Scott Chris

Luc

I am a warmist. To me, at least, warmist isn’t an insult, so it follows that I didn’t use it as such.

The kind of information that I regard as propaganda is that which is unproven as being attributable to AGW, such as unusual animal migration.

If you are attempting to persuade skeptics to the merits of your argument, it pays to only use concrete information, without drawing specious allusions, otherwise the information is rejected outright and invites scorn.

Your argument, though, is far more comprehensive and rational than MNIJ’s, despite the angry subtext IMO, and I enjoy reading your posts.
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September 19, 2011 8:03am
Elaycee

Monique Watson September 18th, 2011 at 7:32 pm – very good. 🙂
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September 19, 2011 8:09am

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