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September 14, 2011 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 14 September 2011

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General Debate

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grumpyoldhori

Hmm the more religious the less bright,so the more religious the more conservative and right wing.
So liberals are brighter than right wing types, figures 🙂
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September 14, 2011 4:19pm
Lee01

“I’ve never seen anyone who understands peer reviewing claim anything like that.”

Perhaps your not paying attention to some of the posters here.

“The idea that a belief is beyond question displays a sheep-like mentality and an inability to engage in critical thinking?”

Iv’e never said any belief is beyond question. I leave that kind of truly fundamentalist “thinking” to people like Big Bruv.

Griff,

“Value judgment?”

One of the problems with all of these so-called studies, regardless of the subject, is the fact that they often represent the value judgements of those that crafted them. In academic circles this is known as “the myth of nuetrality”, an idea from postmodernism that rejects the modern Western notion of pure objectivity and value nuetrality.
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September 14, 2011 4:19pm
Pete George

Liberals are always trotting out psuedo-scientific studies to make their claims, but only someone who lacks critical thinking would not question them.

I didn’t think the proponents of intelligent design were liberals.

“IntelligentDesign.org is a gateway website introducing people to the scientific debate over intelligent design and Darwinian evolution. ”

Lee, would you question them?
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September 14, 2011 4:22pm
Lee01

Scott,

“Apollo missions to the moon were named after Apollo, the Greek God of the sun, truth and prophecy, medicine, healing, plague, music, poetry, arts and archery. Artemis, on the other hand, was the Greek Goddess of the Moon.”

Heh, I’m sure Freud would have had something to say about that 🙂
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September 14, 2011 4:25pm
Lee01

“Lee, would you question them?”

Of course. And I have. I also believe they make some very valid points.

There is only one individual I do not question. Everyone else is fair game, even IF I am inclined to agree with them.
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September 14, 2011 4:26pm
RightNow

What judgement are you seeking Griff? What values would predispose one to dismiss climate change evidence? Religious beliefs perhaps? They allude to cultural polarization, so I’d infer that they’re suggesting certain cultures are predisposed to disbelieve climate change evidence.
Of course we then need to define ‘climate change evidence’ and ‘dismissal’ of such. Does acceptance that the climate changes naturally constitute a dismissal of climate change evidence? Is it requisite that you have to believe a) the climate is changing mostly due to human activity and (not or) b) the change is likely to entail catastrophic consequences?
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September 14, 2011 4:27pm
Ryan Sproull

The correlation between religious belief and low intelligence is not an indicator of the falsehood of religious claims. To suggest they are is to commit an ad hominem fallacy.
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September 14, 2011 4:29pm
Lee01

Back shortly. I have some news from my wife.
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September 14, 2011 4:32pm
Griff

I was pointing out that.

some value science and see the truth in scientific process and peer review.

Some value spirituality and see the truth in faith

Others value ideology and see the truth in their ideas

The first one science relies on processes outside the mind, the next two are focused inside the mind.

Thus the three schools of thought go round and round on this blog
We do not talk the same language
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September 14, 2011 4:33pm
RightNow

“We do not talk the same language” – agreed.
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September 14, 2011 4:37pm
Elaycee

Scott Chris says: “Somehow I didn’t have you pegged as a doggy person. Did you pull the wings of flies when you were a kid?”

To borrow an expression already used by Big Bruv (but I couldn’t put it better):

You confuse me with somebody who gives a flying fuck what you have to say on this, or any other matter. I addressed the post to KiwiGreg, not you.

Get the message?
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September 14, 2011 4:37pm
Pete George

There is only one individual I do not question.

Yourself apparently.
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September 14, 2011 4:39pm
Griff

RightNow
You have not read or have read and not understood your own link

Your ideas blind you
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September 14, 2011 4:43pm
RightNow

Griff, you are rushing to judgement on flimsy evidence.
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September 14, 2011 4:47pm
Lee01

“We do not talk the same language” – agreed.

Pete,

“Yourself apparently.”

Don’t be childish. I was referring to Christ. I went from being an atheist to a Christian, and a card carrying member of Jim Anderton’s New Labour Party to a Tory Traditionalist BECAUSE I question myself and my assumptions.
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September 14, 2011 4:49pm
Griff

“We suggest that this evidence reflects a conflict between two levels of rationality:

Science view
The individual level, which is characterized by citizens’ effective use of their knowledge and reasoning capacities to form risk perceptions that express their cultural commitments;”

Ideological view

“and the collective level, which is characterized by citizens’ failure to converge on the best available scientific evidence on how to promote their common welfare.”
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September 14, 2011 4:55pm
bereal

and now we hear that Richard Northey had something to do with the transport committee,
ACC World cup.

How could it be anything EXCEPT a cockup with that pathetic drone anywhere near it ?
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September 14, 2011 4:56pm
Scott Chris

Elaycee – “You confuse me with somebody who gives a flying fuck”

I don’t think I do. That’s why you enjoy being cruel to animals.

I’m just trying to work out whether you really are psychopath. Ever done anything really bad Elaycee?

(menimoh da)
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September 14, 2011 4:58pm
Ben Wilson

>My own view is that something is either true or not.

A debate on meta-logic?

Certainly that is how classical logic works, there’s truth and falsity, and nothing in between. It’s useful, because it’s simple. But it’s not the only useful logic. There are many-valued logics out there, the most famous being fuzzy logic, which works well for some problems. Classical logic has proved to be less useful in quantum mechanics, the famous cat is not either alive or dead until the famous box is opened.

The question of relative truth is a different one again. Usually, within the relative context, the logic is binary. But a lot of truths require a frame of reference. For instance “how fast am I going?” is a question whose answer can only ever have relative truth. Relative to the Earth, I’m stationary at my desk. Relative to the sun, I’m moving around quite rapidly in a large near-ellipse. Relative to the galactic centre, I’m corkscrewing around even faster, slowly circumnavigating the center. Relative to other galaxies, I’m hurtling away at a colossal speed, apparently faster, the further a galaxy you choose.
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September 14, 2011 5:05pm
Elaycee

As usual, you have buggered up the quote – I said: “You confuse me with somebody who gives a flying fuck what you have to say on this, or any other matter…”

If you cannot understand this, ask a grown up.

Foxtrot Oscar.
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September 14, 2011 5:07pm
RightNow

Griff, the study suggests that individuals who are more scientifically literate are more likely to be skeptical. So the ‘science view’ as you put it tends to favour skepticism. Not a great surprise.
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September 14, 2011 5:15pm
Scott Chris

Ben Wilson – “Classical logic has proved to be less useful in quantum mechanics, the famous cat is not either alive or dead until the famous box is opened.”

The Schrodinger’s cat thought experiment is dependent on classical logic to illustrate the argument. The flaw in the experiment from a deterministic point of view, is that there is *never* going to be an exactly 50/50 chance of an event either happening, or not happening, so the cat cannot be both alive and dead in reality. Only works in theory.
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September 14, 2011 5:17pm
Ryan Sproull

Don’t be childish. I was referring to Christ. I went from being an atheist to a Christian, and a card carrying member of Jim Anderton’s New Labour Party to a Tory Traditionalist BECAUSE I question myself and my assumptions.

Do you question your own belief that you should never question Christ?
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September 14, 2011 5:21pm
Scott Chris

Elaycee – Just testing your intelligence. (menimoh da) = (ad hominem)

ie, my personal attack on you was based on a false premise. Didn’t stop me enjoying it though, as a doggy person.
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September 14, 2011 5:21pm
Scott Chris

RS – “Do you question your own belief that you should never question Christ?”

That is a condition of the faith contract.
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September 14, 2011 5:23pm
Lee01

“Do you question your own belief that you should never question Christ?”

Already have. I found out he was telling the truth 🙂
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September 14, 2011 5:24pm
bereal

How has a nonce such as Richard Northey managed to suck on the public tit
for 27 long, long years ?
He is still there, sucking away and fucking up anything he is associated with.
You gotta hand it to him but.
A very clever bludger.
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September 14, 2011 5:27pm
bereal

Sorry, i meant to say cunning not clever.

Can anyone out there explain how he does it though ?
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September 14, 2011 5:32pm
chiz

adc: Thalidomide is safe

No. The problem with thalidomide wasn’t to do with a lack of peer review but was due to (a) lack of safety regulations, due in part to Nixon, and (b) the fact the two companies involved deliberately lied to people.
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September 14, 2011 5:39pm
chiz

Lee01:Laughable. “Studies” like that just beggar questions. For example their use of IQ. It is well known now that IQ’s are not fixed, they change over time and are highly variable, even being effected by the seasons. Most people’s IQ’s are higher in summer, lower in winter. There is some evidence that they even change throughout the day, depending on social and environmental factors. So straight off the bat the so-called “study” has a serious problem with its assumptions. More research would probably disclose even more.

Evidence for any of this please. IQ’s are fairly stable within testing error.

And just to burst the bubble further, here is a list of some “fundamentalists” who could reasonably be said to amongst the brightest people of our civilisation:

Irenaus, Augustine, Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Calvin, C.S Lewis, Francis Schaeffer, Timothy Keller, Michael Horton, Karl Barth, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and so on.

C.S. Lewis is among the brightest people of our civilisation? You’ve obviously never read his stuff.
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September 14, 2011 5:44pm
big bruv

Lee

So you “speak” to God do you?
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September 14, 2011 5:47pm
Scott Chris

Superintendant Gary Knowles breaks down:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-disaster/5623230/Superintendant-breaks-down-I-did-my-best

I don’t know what other people think, but in my opinion, Gary Knowles should not have been anywhere near the reigns of power, and did the reputation of the police irreparable harm.
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September 14, 2011 5:59pm
Lee01

Chiz,

“C.S. Lewis is among the brightest people of our civilisation? You’ve obviously never read his stuff.”

Yes I have, most of it. Do you have a point or are you just trolling like big bruv?
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September 14, 2011 6:04pm
big bruv

Come on now Lee, if you cannot defend your God there is no need to resort to abuse.

Just admit that you are a beaten man and go away?
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September 14, 2011 6:31pm
big bruv

Does anybody know if VSM is due to be debated in the house tonight?
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September 14, 2011 6:32pm
kiwisimplexity

Microsoft comes up with something original?
Mac is about to suck big time. Windows 8 is going to take over again.
http://kiwisimplexity.wordpress.com/2011/09/14/microsoft-comes-up-with-something-original/

Police solve reckless driving with a coffee
South Dunedin has turned into a haven for empty headed asocials with their tuned up skylines to break as many road rules as possible.
http://kiwisimplexity.wordpress.com/2011/09/14/police-solve-reckless-driving-with-a-coffee/

Greece/Europe/World doomed
There is no hope. No way to avoid it. Just close your eyes and get hit by the downward force of the world’s economy.
http://kiwisimplexity.wordpress.com/2011/09/14/greeceeuropeworld-doomed/

Surprise! Gov’t money not spent correctly
A shocker in The Press today. It seems that money reserved by the Government for a Maori and Pacific Islander family wellbeing plan is not really going to the people who it’s intended for.
http://kiwisimplexity.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/surprise-gov%E2%80%99t-money-not-spent-correctly/

Blog: http://kiwisimplexity.wordpress.com/
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September 14, 2011 6:32pm
plebe

good one Canada
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September 14, 2011 6:54pm
nasska

ADULT LEARNING FOR MEN (Well it is time for one for the ladies)

THE ADULT LEARNING CENTER

REGISTRATION MUST BE COMPLETED

by Wednesday, Oct 7, 2011

NOTE: DUE TO THE COMPLEXITY AND DIFFICULTY LEVEL OF THEIR CONTENTS, CLASS SIZES WILL BE LIMITED TO 8 PARTICIPANTS MAXIMUM.

Class 1

How To Fill Up The Ice Cube Trays–Step by Step, with Slide Presentation. Meets 4 weeks, Monday and Wednesday for 2 hours beginning at 7:00 PM.

Class 2

The Toilet Paper Roll–Does It Change Itself? Round Table Discussion. Meets 2 weeks, Saturday 12:00 for 2 hours.

Class 3

Is It Possible To Urinate Using The Technique Of Lifting The Seat and Avoiding The Floor, Walls and Nearby Bathtub?–Group Practice. Meets 4 weeks, Saturday 10:00 PM for 2 h ours.

Class 4

Fundamental Differences Between The Laundry Basket and The Floor–Pictures and Explanatory Graphics. Meets Saturdays at 2:00 PM for 3 weeks.

Class 5

Dinner Dishes–Can They Levitate and Fly Into The Kitchen Sink? Examples on Video. Meets 4 weeks, Tuesday and Thursday for 2 hours beginning at 7:00 PM

Class 6

Loss Of Identity–Losing The Remote To Your Significant Other. Help Line Support and Support Groups. Meets 4 Weeks, Friday and Sunday 7:00 PM

Class 7

Learning How To Find Things–Starting With Looking In The Right Places And Not Turning The House Upside Down While Screaming. Open Forum. Monday at 8:00 PM, 2 hours.

Class 8

Health Watch–Bringing Her Flowers Is Not Harmful To Your Health. Graphics and Audio Tapes. Three nights; Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 7:00 PM for 2 hours.

Class 9

Real Men Ask For Directions When Lost–Real Life Testimonials. Tuesdays at 6:00 PM Location to be determined.

Class 10

Is It Genetically Impossible To Sit Quietly While She Parallel Parks? Driving Simulations. 4 weeks, Saturday’s noon, 2 hours.

Class 11

Learning to Live–Basic Differences Between Mother and Wife. Online Classes and role-playing. Tuesdays at 7:00 PM, location to be determined

Class 12

How to be the Ideal Shopping Companion. Relaxation Exercises, Meditation and Breathing Techniques. Meets 4 weeks, Tuesday and Thursday for 2 hours beginning at 7:00 PM.

Class 13

How to Fight Cerebral Atrophy–Remembering Birthdays, Anniversaries and Other Important Dates and Calling When You’re Going To Be Late. Cerebral Shock Therapy Sessions and Full Lobotomies Offered. Three nights; Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 7:00 PM for 2 hours.

Class 14

The Stove/Oven–What It Is and How It Is Used Live Demonstration. Tuesdays at 6:00 PM, location to be determined.

Upon completion of any of the above courses, diplomas will be issued to the survivors.
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September 14, 2011 7:00pm
Pete George

good one Canada

Yep, they finished very well, and another good game.
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September 14, 2011 7:21pm
Griff

Weight watchers. Avoid that devilish temptation to nibble at the chocolate bar in the cupboard or fridge by not buying the fucking thing in the first place, you fat bastards.

Housewives: When nipping out to the shops, remember to carry a stiff broom in the boot of your car. Use it to sweep the broken glass to the side of the road every time you have a minor accident.

Give up smoking by sticking one cigarette from each new pack up a fat friend’s arse, filter first, then replacing it in the box. The possibility of putting that one in your mouth will put you off smoking any of them.

Manchester United fans. Save money on expensive new kits by simply strapping a large fake penis to your forehead. It is now clear to all, as to your allegiance

Make your girlfriend cry when you’re having sex by phoning her up and telling her.

Dyslexics. Try deliberately spelling words wrongly. This way at least you have a chance of spelling them correctly.

Bearded men can obtain the appearance of an upper class Arctic explorer by simply applying Tippex to their beards, painting their noses blue, and cutting off a couple of toes. It never fails to impress the girls.

If a small child is choking on an ice cube, don’t panic. Simply pour a jug of boiling water down its throat and hey presto! The blockage is almost instantly removed.

Avoid cutting yourself while clumsily slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them while you chop away.

Keep the seat next to you on the train vacant by smiling and nodding at people as they walk up the aisle.

Save on booze by drinking cold tea instead of whisky. The following morning you can create the effects of a hangover by drinking a thimble full of washing up liquid and banging your head repeatedly on the wall.

Make bath times as much fun for kiddies as a visit to the seaside by pouring a bucket of sand, a bag of salt and a dog turd into the bath.

Increase blind people’s electricity bills by switching all their lights on when their guide dog isn’t looking.

Recreate the fun of a visit to a public swimming pool in your own home by filling the bath with cold water, adding two bottles of bleach, then urinating into it, before jumping in.

Girls. Too old to go on an 18 to 30 holiday? Simply get pissed, lie in a sand pit in your garden and shag every bloke who looks at you over the fence.

Don’t buy expensive ‘ribbed’ condoms, just buy an ordinary one and slip a handful of frozen peas inside it before you put it on.

X-Files fans. Create the effect of being abducted by aliens by drinking two bottles of vodka. You’ll invariably wake up in a strange place the following morning, having had your memory mysteriously ‘erased’.
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September 14, 2011 7:43pm
Griff

Weight watchers. Avoid that devilish temptation to nibble at the chocolate bar in the cupboard or fridge by not buying the fucking thing in the first place, you fat bastards.

Housewives: When nipping out to the shops, remember to carry a stiff broom in the boot of your car. Use it to sweep the broken glass to the side of the road every time you have a minor accident.

Give up smoking by sticking one cigarette from each new pack up a fat friend’s arse, filter first, then replacing it in the box. The possibility of putting that one in your mouth will put you off smoking any of them.

Manchester United fans. Save money on expensive new kits by simply strapping a large fake penis to your forehead. It is now clear to all, as to your allegiance

Make your girlfriend cry when you’re having sex by phoning her up and telling her.

Dyslexics. Try deliberately spelling words wrongly. This way at least you have a chance of spelling them correctly.

Bearded men can obtain the appearance of an upper class Arctic explorer by simply applying Tippex to their beards, painting their noses blue, and cutting off a couple of toes. It never fails to impress the girls.

If a small child is choking on an ice cube, don’t panic. Simply pour a jug of boiling water down its throat and hey presto! The blockage is almost instantly removed.

Avoid cutting yourself while clumsily slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them while you chop away.

Keep the seat next to you on the train vacant by smiling and nodding at people as they walk up the aisle.

Save on booze by drinking cold tea instead of whisky. The following morning you can create the effects of a hangover by drinking a thimble full of washing up liquid and banging your head repeatedly on the wall.

Make bath times as much fun for kiddies as a visit to the seaside by pouring a bucket of sand, a bag of salt and a dog turd into the bath.

Increase blind people’s electricity bills by switching all their lights on when their guide dog isn’t looking.

Recreate the fun of a visit to a public swimming pool in your own home by filling the bath with cold water, adding two bottles of bleach, then urinating into it, before jumping in.

Girls. Too old to go on an 18 to 30 holiday? Simply get pissed, lie in a sand pit in your garden and shag every bloke who looks at you over the fence.

Don’t buy expensive ‘ribbed’ condoms, just buy an ordinary one and slip a handful of frozen peas inside it before you put it on.

X-Files fans. Create the effect of being abducted by aliens by drinking two bottles of vodka. You’ll invariably wake up in a strange place the following morning, having had your memory mysteriously ‘erased’.

Minor skin grafts can be performed on pigs by covering any cuts and grazes with thin strips of bacon.

Save money on expensive personalised car number plates by simply changing your name to match your existing plate. – Mr. KVL 741Y,

Don’t waste money buying expensive binoculars. Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view.

Avoid jet lag by simply taking an earlier flight, thus arriving fully refreshed and on time.

Pass yourself off as Welsh by putting coal dust behind your fingernails and talking gibberish all the time, stopping occasionally to sing loudly, or set fire to someone else’s house.

Putting just the right amount of gin in your goldfish bowl makes the fishes’ eyes bulge and cause them to swim in an amusing manner.

Save time when crossing a one-way street by only looking in the direction of oncoming traffic. – D. Rogers, Hemel Hempstead

When crossing a one-way street always look in BOTH directions in case a large blue furniture removal lorry is reversing the wrong way up the road. – D. Rogers, Hemel Hempstead General Infirmary.

Thicken up runny low-fat yoghurt by stirring in a spoonful of lard.

Anorexics. When your knees become fatter than your legs, start eating cakes again.

A next door neighbour’s car aerial, carefully folded, makes an ideal coat hanger in an emergency.

Hijackers. Avoid a long stressful siege and the risk of arrest, imprisonment or death by simply making sure you book a flight to your intended destination in the first place.

Deter goldfish from having sex by throwing a small bucket of air over any that you catch in the act.

An empty aluminium cigar tube filled with angry wasps makes an inexpensive vibrator
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September 14, 2011 7:52pm
Ryan Sproull

“C.S. Lewis is among the brightest people of our civilisation? You’ve obviously never read his stuff.”

Yes I have, most of it. Do you have a point or are you just trolling like big bruv?

Nah, he’s right. Plenty of bright folk in your list, but CS Lewis’s attempts at apologetics are like a primer in logical fallacy. He’s very convincing to the convinced.

Good imagination. The Great Divorce was great. Just not the critical thinker some people seem to think he was.
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September 14, 2011 9:56pm
noskire

And now for something completely different. Divorce – who’s been through it and why?
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September 14, 2011 10:27pm
Manolo

The EU on the brink: http://www.france24.com/en/20110914-eurozone-crisis-could-rip-eu-apart-officials-0
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September 15, 2011 5:02am
Manolo

Less hope and no change from his administration: http://michellemalkin.com/2011/09/14/obamas-big-green-boondoggles/
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September 15, 2011 5:10am
Viking2

Another Plus from Rodney and ACT.

‘Bond bank’ aimed at Mum and Dad
By Adam Bennett
5:30 AM Thursday Sep 15, 2011

Local Government Minister Rodney Hide.

Long-suffering “mum and dad” retail investors will have better access to high-quality local government bonds by early next year after legislation passed yesterday setting up a “bond bank” which will borrow money on behalf of local authorities.

The Local Government Borrowing Bill passed its third reading yesterday supported by all parties in Parliament.

The New Zealand Local Government Funding Agency Ltd:
* Will issue bonds to raise cash on behalf of local authorities.
* Borrowing by local authorities is expected to rise from $6 billion currently to $10 billion.
* The bonds will be offered to institutional and retail investors.
* Local Government NZ estimates the funding agency will save local government about $25 million each year.
By Adam Bennett | Email Adam
Related Tags

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10751868
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September 15, 2011 6:59am
Ben Wilson

@Scott Chris

>The Schrodinger’s cat thought experiment is dependent on classical logic to illustrate the argument. The flaw in the experiment from a deterministic point of view, is that there is *never* going to be an exactly 50/50 chance of an event either happening, or not happening, so the cat cannot be both alive and dead in reality. Only works in theory.

It certainly does use classical logic, in a reductio ad absurdum argument to show that the idea of something being in a state that only becomes decided at the moment of observation, has absurd consequences. But there is a corollary to this – the problem might actually be in the logic, rather than the quantum mechanics. It is a philosophical position to insist that something must be in one state or it’s complementary, without any other possibilities. This has been useful to human thought, but it is not a scientific stipulation – science has no use for such stipulations, really. Fighting desperately to protect 2 valued logic is not helping science to understand the universe. It could be fighting against understanding it. It’s an extremely deep and ingrained prejudice to insist on binary thinking, to the point that many people can’t even conceive of alternatives. It is, and hopefully always will be, a purpose of science to examine these prejudices, and if they are found wanting, to reject them.

That said, binary logic is extremely powerful. It’s like the Aristotle of decision processes (and it’s not surprise Aristotle wrote the first formal works on logic), enables the building of giant edifices of knowledge. And just like Aristotle, and his powerful arguments that the Earth must be stationary, it could stand in the way of truth for thousands of years.
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September 15, 2011 11:26am
chiz

I’m not sure that the problem with quantum mechanics is due to bivalance. Its fairly well established that the axiom of distributivity, a standard part of classical logic, isn’t true in quantum mechanics.
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September 15, 2011 4:49pm

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