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August 30, 2011 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 30 August 2011

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Viking2

The time is near.
The rise of the Empire of Freedom is Coming.
Socialists to the sword.

Vikings Rule

😆
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August 30, 2011 8:06am
jaba

anyone else ever had a camera shoved up their butt .. 3pm is racing towards me
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August 30, 2011 8:07am
Scott Chris

Allies Planned To Turn Hitler Into A Woman By Spiking Food With Oestrogen.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-world/2011/08/15/bizarre-plan-to-defeat-hitler-by-turning-him-into-a-woman-revealed-115875-23345117/

Evidence that Spike Milligan worked for British Military Intelligence.
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August 30, 2011 8:07am
Viking2

DPF. I have made you a dollar or two from Greenpeace.

Help make up for all that space that their syncophatic followers fill on here.

Great.
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August 30, 2011 8:09am
Monique Watson

jaba (1,435) Says:
August 30th, 2011 at 8:07 am

Any day without a colonoscopy is a good day. 🙂
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August 30, 2011 8:09am
Inventory2

If only the walls of the Labour caucus room has ears; what stories they might tell when caucus meets today on the back of the Herald DigiPoll

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2011/08/another-day-another-poll.html
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August 30, 2011 8:10am
seanmaitland

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5529022/Thats-my-mum-you-re-hurting-PM-told

“In the letter, the woman says her usually “loving and vibrant” mother is now “depressed and anxious” after learning she is not likely to get one of the few vacancies left open.

“This has terrified her and she is in turmoil and worry about her future, something that a woman of her age does not need.”

“Her mother may have to leave her one-bedroom flat as she will no longer be able to afford the rent, apply for the unemployment benefit and state-funded accommodation.

“She said she wrote to Mr Key to make him “understand what is happening to people in this country when they are losing their jobs”.

—-

I’m sorry, but some people need to learn to look after themselves. Being a nose in the trough public servant and not preparing yourself for retirement is just stupid. Expecting the state to look after you is selfish.

My dad got made redundant from his 30 year private sector corporate head-office job at age 62, and instead of sitting around whinging, he reinvented himself as a marriage celebrant and now performs up to 40 weddings plus funerals a year to top up his private superannuation scheme. I would be embarrassed if I was related to the above women.
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August 30, 2011 8:12am
Michaels

Must suck having a popular right wing blog only to have a Greenpeace add hanging on top of it.
One would want a little control over who gets to advertise I would think.
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August 30, 2011 8:13am
Griff

Viking2
I owe you an apology
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10748286
Seems nothing will come out of Auckland but crime
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August 30, 2011 8:14am
Viking2

jaba (1,436) Says:
August 30th, 2011 at 8:07 am

anyone else ever had a camera shoved up their butt .. 3pm is racing towards me

Enjoy it. Have a good feed of boiled prunes for lunch. Get your own back.
😆
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August 30, 2011 8:15am
petal

@jaba

unfortunate user name….

People survive the indignity. Hope it was a waste of time. In the end.
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August 30, 2011 8:21am
Scott Chris

jaba – painless and sensitively administered apparently. Good idea to make love to your wife before you leave home in case the unexpected arises….. I’ve heard some of the nurses are rather well endowed.
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August 30, 2011 8:22am
Ender

They say that getting a colonoscopy is the first step on a slippery slope you know.
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August 30, 2011 8:24am
jaba

I have also found out that I really am (or was) full of shit .. sorry for the mental image
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August 30, 2011 8:28am
williamsheridan

Appalling piece in the herald today by Bryan Gould… Suggests key is like Muldoon because he dominates the media. Fuck me, how low will the left go. Do they still not get the fact that kiwis loathe gutter politics… Or worse still sewer politics.
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August 30, 2011 8:32am
Rick Rowling

Firefox. Adblock Plus.
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August 30, 2011 8:40am
Scott Chris

Government reaffirms renewable energy goal of 90% by 2025:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5530208/Government-reaffirms-renewable-energy-goal
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August 30, 2011 8:53am
Scott Chris

Catherine Isaac tipped for ACT’s 3rd spot:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5521627/Isaac-tipped-for-ACTs-third-spot

Glad it wasn’t a different Catherine:

Blogger and lawyer Cathy Odgers – who is based in Hong Kong and writes as Cactus Kate – confirmed yesterday, before the list was announced, that she would not be standing.
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August 30, 2011 8:58am
mikenmild

Nice little column here from Christopher Hitchens about Rick Perry and religion:
http://www.slate.com/id/2302661/
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August 30, 2011 9:11am
hj

Getting Mr Roth
“Plans to rebuild Christchurch should not be simply popular, but must also be achievable, says the man who led the reconstruction of Manchester after an IRA bomb.

“The most popular ideas for our rebuild were the least deliverable,” Manchester City Council leader Sir Richard Leese said.

“In fact, the most popular one was impossible to achieve.”

Christchurch needed bold architecture that would polarise residents.

“They’re Marmite buildings: you either love them or hate them, and I think Marmite buildings are good for a city.”

Leese was among many politicians, city planners and architectural experts who shared their experiences as part of the consultation process for the draft central-city plan.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/christchurch-earthquake-2011/5521298/Rebuild-plans-need-to-be-achievable

Questioned about the proposed seven-storey CBD height limit, Leese said in Manchester they had no height restrictions, opting to assess each project on its merits.

“Plans ought to open up opportunities rather than close down opportunities,” he said.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/christchurch-earthquake-2011/5518945/Rebuild-not-easy-to-deliver

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyman_Roth
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August 30, 2011 9:11am
Murray

Got anything to say yourself mike or you just to half arsed to even troll with your own drek?
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August 30, 2011 9:12am
peterwn

Viking2 – AFAIK DPF ‘leases’ advertising space to Google so he has limited control on the ads actually placed. All I can say here is hopefully DPF’s contract with Google indemnifies DPF against defamation suits arising out of the ads. Sealord is talking about seeing lawyers.

Greenpeace has scored an ‘own goal’ with the Sealord stunt in Ellerslie. Volunteers have been spruicing the place up for the World Cup, and Greenpeace plastered their ads on lamp posts where volunteers had spent hours scraping old ads off.
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August 30, 2011 9:15am
Brian Harmer

I suspect you don’t control what gets advertised. Intrigued to see the greenpeace ‘misinformation’ banner at the top of Kiwiblog today.
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August 30, 2011 9:18am
mikenmild

Got anything nice to say Murray?
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August 30, 2011 9:27am
Inventory2

Look on the bright side Jaba; your bowel will soon be clean enough to eat dinner off!
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August 30, 2011 9:27am
Scott Chris

Mike – Re Perry: Thank God it didn’t rain.
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August 30, 2011 9:31am
mattyroo

I recommend clicking on the greenpeace ad as often as possible. That way, DPF makes money and it costs the tools at greenpeace.
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August 30, 2011 9:33am
noskire

Google AdSense has a filter so publishers can block specific ads from appearing.
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August 30, 2011 9:33am
thedavincimode

seanmaitland

Its interesting that in every such “woe is me, my poor [mother/father/sister/brother]” story, there is never any acknowledgement that other family members might have some role in assisting their close relatives, but that instead, there is the greedy expectation that people who aren’t in any way related (ie taxayers) should pick up the tab on the basis that the gummint has the primary support responsibility.

Predictably, there was no indication from that correspondent that she was prepared to do anything to help her own mother.

Instead its a case of: “there you go Mum, I’ve written to John Key” and [thinks: ‘phew, that’s me off the hook; now I can get on with my own life without any further inconvenience’].

No doubt the correspondent was spurred on by the righteous indignation that her mother had payed taxes and the fact that she had done so means it is now time to collect. In other words, our tax system is in reality the equivalent of a large scale Xmas savings club. That means that if any of life’s sour bits arrive on your doorstep, friends and relatives are entitled to stand around with their hands in their pockets while the taxpayer turns up to fix the problem.

In this case there is the added expectation that taxpayers should fund employment for the sake of it, irrespective of whether public servants are actually doing anything that delivers value to their employers, being the taxpayers of this country. There didn’t seem to be any indication of her views as to whether that notion should be extended to the private sector.
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August 30, 2011 9:37am
Scott Chris

Rick Perry:

In 2006 he said that he believed the Bible to be inerrant.

He also said that those who did not accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior would be going to hell.

He tells us that he is a “firm believer” in the “intelligent design”

http://www.slate.com/id/2302661/
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August 30, 2011 9:39am
mikenmild

Scott

On a brighter note, Perry’s rival Michele Bachman has now confirmed that she was only joking when she suggested over the weekend that Hurricane Irene and last week’s East Coast earthquake were messages from God.
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August 30, 2011 9:52am
berend

Great piece by Bryan Gould in the NZ Herald:

There are times when it seems that nothing can happen, either internationally or domestically, so far as our media are concerned, unless the Prime Minister is on hand to comment on it or otherwise certify by his presence that it is indeed news.

How do you National voters feel now we know, thanks to wikileaks, that John Key admits he is a socialist?

He certainly act likes one. When do you guys stop believing the talk and look at this man’s actions?
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August 30, 2011 9:53am
Pete George

There’s an interesting post on The Standard on social media in politics if you ignore the standard description:

Red Alert and Frogblog are very free, with MPs writing what they want and relatively loose moderation, whereas NationalMPs is insipid and tightly controlled – who has taken the smarter course?

The actual post is far better than that: http://thestandard.org.nz/the-new-political-battleground/
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August 30, 2011 9:55am
MT_Tinman

My shopping list this week includes Sealords Tuna and Cottonsoft toilet paper.

Thank you Greenpeace for recommending them.
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August 30, 2011 9:57am
MT_Tinman

Berend, as a committed National voter (since, from memory, April 28) it bothers me not that John Key speaks the truth rather than communist-style political-speak.
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August 30, 2011 10:00am
Rodders

re Bryan Gould – these numbers show the amount of faith his colleagues had in his political skills and judgement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_(UK)_leadership_election,_1992
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August 30, 2011 10:09am
Scott Chris

MT_Tinman says, “My shopping list this week includes Sealords Tuna and Cottonsoft toilet paper.”

Keep an eye out for a velvet heart stuffed with sawdust. I assume you are still looking?

“His desire for a heart notably contrasts with the Scarecrow’s desire for brains, reflecting a common debate between the relative importance of the mind and the emotions.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_Woodman
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August 30, 2011 10:12am
williamsheridan

@berend

What exactly makes this piece of gutter sniping “great”?

The Prime Minister is the elected leader of our country and I don’t think it is an outrage that media ask him for comment on issues of the day. How the media interpret comments is not in his control.

That he notes New Zealanders have a social conscience is hardly a bad thing, is it?

I find that the left trying to paint a picture of Key as a controlling, hardline, dictatorial leader is the worst fucking type of hypocrisy – given the lefts recent governance in NZ. If you want to see that sort of leadership; apply for a UN job.
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August 30, 2011 10:17am
Viking2

Griff (531) Says:
August 30th, 2011 at 8:14 am

Viking2
I owe you an apology
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10748286
Seems nothing will come out of Auckland but crime

C’mon guys,make some money for DPF. Click on the bloody add as many times as you can. DPF will then havesome money to go tripping around again.
8)
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August 30, 2011 10:22am
Inventory2

@ williamsheridan – Berend loves to try and pull down John Key, seeing as his beloved party of the far right continues to implode
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August 30, 2011 10:28am
Mick Mac

what ad?
I use firefox and a whole load of plugins.
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August 30, 2011 10:30am
Mick Mac

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/08/the_ticket_obama_fears_most.html

some don’t agree with Mikemild and others about Perry, which is just as well as they do vote in the USA.
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August 30, 2011 10:34am
RightNow

I can’t say any of the parties vying for this election have my full support, but my order of voting would be:
National, United Future, Maori Party, ACT, no vote, Labour, Greens, Mana party.

ACT was at the front before Rodney got rolled.
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August 30, 2011 10:59am
TimG_Oz

Wow Greenpeace are advertising hard on Kiwiblog at the moment for their “Sealord > Bad Tuna” ads.

I was in Auckland recently .. there were Greenpeace fundraisers on street corners trying to sign people up. Strangely they didn’t approach me (I was wearing a business suit) – they only seemed to approach students. Not a great target market I would suggest.

Anyway – at lunchtime, the collector went to a cafe for a sandwich. First he turned his Greenpeace jacket inside out (obviously didn’t want the attention), then he proceeded to grill the staff.. “What kind of tuna is it”, “what’s the brand”, “I want to see the can.”, “No, I don’t like it, I’ll just have a cheese sandwich”.

Seriously – it reminded me of people with religious dietary requirements, only worse! Maybe airlines should have an “environmentally friendly” meal option..

Anyway, he seemed to enjoy his cheese sandwich while he proceeded to pollute the world with cigarette smoke.

A bizarre experience, I must say.
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August 30, 2011 11:11am
Jinky

Anybody think that after the Govt changed the law for Warner Brothers that US drug companies might feel they have a good chance here too?
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August 30, 2011 11:16am
william blake

“anyone else ever had a camera shoved up their butt .. 3pm is racing towards me”

yep back in the day, a polaroid instamatic; but the pictures were not very good.
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August 30, 2011 11:16am
Ed Snack

Funny how people seem so worried about Perry’s supposed religious beliefs (is he or is he not a “Dominionist” ?), and yet the same people gave Barack Obama a pass for attending for an extended period the Rev Jeremiah Wright’s church with its hate America and other genuinely obnoxious beliefs.
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August 30, 2011 11:20am
tom hunter

Rick Perry:
In 2006 he said that he believed the Bible to be inerrant.
…
Michele Bachman has now confirmed that she was only joking when she suggested over the weekend that Hurricane Irene and last week’s East Coast earthquake were messages from God.

And then the great, big, Fundamentalist Christian came slowly creeping out from behind the door ……

I see we’ve entered the usual US Presidential debate in which the GOP candidate is a bible-thumping, gun-totin’, sister-lovin’, “extremist”. Oh – and dumb as well. I wonder when he’ll get compared to a Nazi – it’s got to happen sooner or later.

Seeing all the usual left-wing dross I rather appreciated this comment:

Is Ronald Reagan electable? Is George Bush a wimp? Is Michelle Bachmann crazy? Is Rick Perry dumb? It’s bad enough to raise these questions but the pathetic mainstream media only asks them about conservatives. Today’s Politico story about Rick Perry is just the latest example.

Where was the 2007 Politico lead story raising questions about whether or not Barack Obama was all style, no substance and just might be in over his head? That might have saved us from a presidency that is defined as a miserable failure with every passing day.

Where was the 1991 Newsweek cover asking “Does Bill Clinton have a problem with the truth?” Such a story could have certainly spared this nation in ways too many to count, and there was plenty of evidence of such a problem while he was running.

Perhaps the American people should be asking: “Does an unbiased mainstream media really exist, or is it just an extension of the Democratic National Committee?”

I’d say that the Democrats are going to bang the religious-gun-nut-extremist-nazi image more than ever before in the 2012 election – and I can’t actually see it working this time. Hell, I’m an atheist and if an Intelligent Designer promised to hack the US Federal government down by even 5% I’d vote for them every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Which is to say, that at the rate things are moving in the US people will be following the syphilitic camel rule by November 2012.
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August 30, 2011 11:29am
jaba

thanks William, I feel better already
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August 30, 2011 11:40am
tom hunter

I forgot this little gem from Rolling Stone, that describes all the dirty dealing that’s going on in NY with the banks and the fallout from the sub-prime disaster:

Why? My theory is that the Obama administration is trying to secure its 2012 campaign war chest with this settlement deal. If Barry can make this foreclosure thing go away for the banks, you can bet he’ll win the contributions battle against the Republicans next summer.

Indeed.

Of course this article does not dare stray from the bankers are scum theme long enough to ask questions about Freddie, Fannie, Barney Frank, or Chris Dodd – or Warren Buffet as the largest investor in government-approved rating agency Moody’s, one of the outfits that put the big AAA seal of approval on all that crap. But the next line I appreciated for it’s understated nature:

Which is good for him, I guess. But it seems to me that it might be time to wonder if is this the most disappointing president we’ve ever had.

Ka Ching! But come on lefties – disappointing? Just come out and say it – failure and loser – and if he’s losing Rolling Stone…….
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August 30, 2011 11:44am
jaba

Labour had the support of the Greens, who were polling well, and was going out there to win.

He admitted Labour were a “couple of per cent off where we need to be”.

See, Phil isn’t in trouble. The Greens will save him .. Stuff today
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August 30, 2011 11:50am
backster

TIM:…….He contributed to global warming too by buying a cheese sandwich the cheese being produced through the emission of methane and by the urine from the producer contaminating our rivers..The Ad. is also racist denigrating the product of a company owned by the Tangata Whenua.
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August 30, 2011 11:58am
Griff

PRINICIBLE OF TE TREATY

1884
THE REPORT
SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS,
ON
NEW ZEALAND,
CONSIDERED IN A
LETTER TO LORD STANLEY,

By the advice of Lord John Russell, in the month of December 1840, a Charter passed the great seal, by which New Zealand was erected into a separate and independent
colony; and this charter was transmitted, together with instructions under the Royal Sign Manual, to the Governor, Captain Hobson. In this charter and instructions, ‘actual occupation and enjoyment’ are clearly pointed out as alone establishing a right of property in land in the natives; and the rule is laid down that all other lands must be considered as vested in the Crown, in virtue of the sovereignty that had been assumed, and that they must be dealt with accordingly. The treaty of Waitangi (which had previously reached England and been approved), it may therefore fairly be assumed, must, when this charter and the instructions which accompanied it were forwarded to the colony, have been understood as bearing a meaning not inconsistent with the terms in which they are couched. The lands held ‘collectively,’ of which the possession was guaranteed to the aboriginal inhabitants of New Zealand, must, therefore, have been regarded as the lands actually occupied by them, and cultivated in common by a tribe, in the manner frequently practised, and the forests as those actually used for cutting timber.
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August 30, 2011 11:58am
Scott Chris

Surprised more hasn’t been made of this:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/barack-obamas-uncle-has-been-arrested-and-held-as-illegal-immigrant/story-e6frg6so-1226124269032

Sad to see the President’s Uncle has been reduced to this. Surely nepotism counts for something.
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August 30, 2011 12:00pm
cabbage

No Phil. People *are* focussed on the issues. It just happens that they don’t agree with you as to what they are.
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August 30, 2011 12:07pm
mikenmild

Well Griff, what are we to make of that?
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August 30, 2011 12:08pm
graham

Lunch time. Let’s see, what is it today?

Tuna sandwich – that’s SEALORD tuna, of course.

Mmmmm, tuna …
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August 30, 2011 12:08pm
tom hunter

I expect that over the next few months I’ll be hearing various left-wingers express a plague-upon-both-houses attitude towards the political bunfight between Democrats and Republicans in the US. It’s usually what happens when some hero of the left “disappoints” yet again.

However, it still won’t change the fundamental belief that emerges almost like Tourette Syndrome whenever the poor and the rich are discussed – and that is that the GOP represent “the wealthy” and the Dems “the poor”. Which is why I appreciate articles like this one in Forbes about Warren Buffet:

Not by accident did the expression “limousine liberal” enter the American political lexicon years ago (in the late 1960s) as a pejorative term to ridicule the hypocrisy of left-wing anti-capitalists living the high life made possible by capitalism. Buffet is only the most famous of the richest liberals in recent U.S. history; others include FDR, the Kennedys, Ted Turner, Bill Gates, George Soros, and Jamie Dimon.

Working on Wall Street in the 1980s I found the richest to be the most left-leaning, and nothing like the stereotypical “country club Republicans” we’re all told about. Those most sympathetic to capitalism weren’t CEOs and bankers but street vendors, truck drivers, waitresses, and barbers. During the 2008 election season America’s richest investors, including many hedge fund moguls, gave their money mainly to candidate Barack Obama.

That’s why the attacks on the Koch Brothers have been so funny. As the article points out:

Although wealthy pro-capitalists also exist (see the Koch brothers), they’re a distinct minority – indeed, the only minority liberals prefer to attack than coddle.

Many polls show the wealthier to be more statist than capitalist, and data from campaign contributions confirm the basic pattern. Leftists hope this little secret will remain a secret, since it defies their populist cries for class warfare and mocks the hate speech they spew at “millionaires and billionaires, Big Oil, hedge funds and corporate jet owners.”

These types are hardly the GOP’s puppet-masters, as is blithely assumed; in truth the “fat cats” tend to be solidly pro-Democrat. Since the typical voter doesn’t know this, class warfare rhetoric can still easily induce him to reject the GOP.

I don’t think the penny has yet dropped for a lot of Democrat voters in the US (see Jon Stewart as a classic example) – and for the activists it never will drop, even as their attacks are funded by Soros and co.
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August 30, 2011 12:14pm
Scott Chris

Cheney vs Powell:

http://news.yahoo.com/powell-says-cheney-taking-cheap-shots-book-151449860.html

My advice to Colin: Don’t go hunting with Dick.

Cheney: “the book would cause heads to explode”

Wonder if there is a picture of a target superimposed on Powell on the cover.

Some would claim Cheney is cynically ‘targeting’ his publicity.
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August 30, 2011 12:21pm
Griff

MM
Can you read?

“The lands held ‘collectively,’ of which the possession was guaranteed to the aboriginal inhabitants of New Zealand, must, therefore, have been regarded as the lands actually occupied by them, and cultivated in common by a tribe, in the manner frequently practised, and the forests as those actually used for cutting timber.”

Vast tracts of New Zealand were empty due to the effects of the musket wars and earlier conflicts. The south island was to all intents unpopulated. Maori did not even have free passage over what the did control without armed force. Up until the signing of the treaty Land “ownership” Was just Conquest and plunder.
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August 30, 2011 12:29pm
Scott Chris

I wonder if what Tom’s idea of what a ‘lefty’ is, is everyone who has political beliefs to the left of him; ie, everyone. 😉
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August 30, 2011 12:30pm
tom hunter

At this stage a “lefty” to me is someone who continues to bang the same, tired, old drum as people who explicitly claim they’re lefties.

In short – if all I hear from you are the same talking points I hear from avowed left-wing journalists, US Democrats and Obama supporters then I have to conclude that you’re a leftie, despite whatever protestations of “independence” you may make. Real independent thinkers don’t just go with the CW flow.

UPDATE: I forgot to add that you should check out this Dim Post thread, as it leads into your singularity theme.
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August 30, 2011 12:33pm
mikenmild

Griff

Although your heading was a bit unclear, I think you are referring to the House of Commons Committee on New Zealand, which in 1844, as Cowan describes:
‘resolved that the Treaty of Waitangi was a part of a series of injudicious proceedings, and that “the acknowledgement by the local authorities of a right of property on the part of the natives of New Zealand in all wild land in these islands, after the sovereignty had been assumed by Her Majesty, was not essential to the true construction of the Treaty, and was an error which had been productive of very injurious consequences.” In other words, the Committee thought the Government should seize upon all native land not actually occupied and devote it to the use of white settlers.’

The Committee’s enquiry had been sought by the New Zealand Company, which had an obvious motive for declaring any ‘wild land’ to be available for settlement.

The British Government took no action on the report, which possibly did however contribute to the outbreak of the Northern War the next year.
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August 30, 2011 12:42pm
Griff

1845 – Brodie, W. Remarks on the Past and Present State of New Zealand

“On this house, which originally cost 2000l., and which might have served every purpose required for the comfort and convenience of the governor of a new Colony, no less a sum than 15,000l. or 20,000l. has been thrown away; while not even 100l. have been, as yet, devoted to local purposes. In fact, so little has the comfort or convenience of the public been attended to, that even the streets of Auckland itself, where the people have expended nearly 40,000l. in the purchase of allotments, are in such a state as to be utterly impassable; although an outlay of 100l. or 200l. would have been sufficient for their improvement. ”

“The revenue of the Colony appears to have been made subservient to one purpose only,–that of being expended, directly or indirectly, upon the Government officials themselves, or upon their friends.”

Some things don’t change.
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August 30, 2011 12:49pm
tom hunter

I admit that I do get tired of the endless back-and-forth between left and right, usually because it comes across as an endless battle with no conclusions. That’s why it’s often better to look at real world results, like the recent 2010 US census data:

States that Barack Obama carried were the biggest losers in the reapportionment that followed the 2010 Census, with New York and Ohio dropping two electoral votes each. Texas, meanwhile, gained a whopping four votes all by its Lone Star lonesome self. Even in the unlikely event that Obama carried exactly the same states he carried in 2008, he’d still win six fewer electoral votes in 2012.

Even more tellingly, if the epic Bush-Gore battle of 2000 played out on the new Electoral College map, with the two candidates carrying precisely the states they each won 11 years ago, the result would have been a far more clear-cut GOP victory margin of 33 electoral votes (instead of the five-vote nail-biter recorded in history books).

Ouch – but the following is more hurtful, in looking at what the population shifts really mean:

This significant shift in population not only presents progressives with significant problems in terms of practical politics, but also confronts them with profound ideological challenges.

If liberal approaches work so well, why are so many people choosing to pack their bags and desert some of the most progressive, pro-labor, big-government states in the union?

And if uncompromising conservatism is a cruel, fraudulent disaster, why do small-government, pro-business, low-tax, gun-toting, and churchgoing states draw such a disproportionate number of America’s internal immigrants?

Perhaps these immigrants really aren’t as frightened of people bitterly clinging to their guns and bibles as we’ve been led to believe?
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August 30, 2011 12:55pm
berend

Inventory2, no need to pull down Key. Just pointing out he’s borrowing $380 million a week, close to 30% youth unemployment, ETS leader instead of follower, smacking still illegal, no tax cuts, and government bigger than ever.

Obviously I realise now that National voters like that kind of stuff.
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August 30, 2011 1:05pm
DJP6-25

Michaels 8:13 Yeah, that’s what I thought. Why give the enemy publicity? Green Peace, putting the con into conservation since the 1980s.

cheers

David Prosser
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August 30, 2011 1:13pm
Griff

sorry I failed to link the quote
1844 – Coates, D. The New Zealanders and their Lands
http://www.enzb.auckland.ac.nz/document?wid=1309&page=0&action=null

It was what I said that counts The treaty process has identified multiple ownership claims in one place. It was not a case of multiple ownership but inter tribal fighting over “no man lands”.

This Committee was debating principles of the treaty as valid as any other view point. We are not told the truth just feed spin
Rewrite the history to (“Primary and secondary schools will be required to teach heritage studies, which will include a history of the Maori, in line with the aspirations of Maori people.)

That to me seems very one sided
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August 30, 2011 1:19pm
mikenmild

If we are just fed spin, why is the Committee’s opinion so widely known?
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August 30, 2011 1:25pm
Scott Chris

Tom, regarding the Dim Post link in which Danyl paraphrases Sam Harris:

“If some future entrepreneur invents a labour saving device that makes them a multi-trillionaire but puts dozens of millions of people out of work, should the government redistribute their private wealth?”

In a word, my opinion is yes, which certainly highlights the streak of socialism in some of us that John Key was referring to. My reasoning is that whilst the free market and capitalism is certainly the best approach at present to attaining optimal growth, it does throw up some disproportionate by-products, such as the super-rich.

To my mind, the billionaire is an absurdity, and the state has the moral right to steal most of his money. The prospect of making a few million should provide enough incentive to strive to succeed. 15-20% flat income tax up to a million p/a. 95% over. 15% company tax, no threshold, 20% GST. Privatize everything except education.
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August 30, 2011 1:36pm
Griff

Is it mike?

Do kids study this in history

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/classroom/ncea3/19th-century-history-introduction

“The period up to 1840, sometimes referred to as the ‘race relations apprenticeship’, in which New Zealand is very much a Maori world.
The 1840s through to the 1860s. The Treaty of Waitangi and war dominate this period. The settler population increases and seeks greater political power and more land for settlement.
1870-1900. New Zealand is transformed economically and socially and is now very much a European world.”

The wars pre 1840 had more impact (up to twenty thousand killed from the linked site, twenty thousand or far more killed according to king) than those prior why is it worded like this?

“Fatal-impact theorists spoke of the end of Maori civilisation as their population fell from perhaps 100,000 in 1840 to a little over 40,000 by the end of the century.”

Note the figure for 1840

‘”The population in 1800 was estimated at anywhere between 100-120,000. The European population generally numbered in the hundreds. The inter-tribal Musket Wars of this period had a dramatic impact on the Maori population with as many as a fifth killed and many thousands captured by rival tribes. On the eve of the signing of the Treaty of Waitangi the Maori population of between 70-90,000 still comfortably outnumbered the non-Maori population of 2000.”

Gee it changes to suit the story. Not what I would like to see from a national teaching resource.

The figures from this site are different from those found in say Micheal Kings work always to minimize the Maori impact on themselves and to prejudice the settlers impact on Maori.
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August 30, 2011 1:49pm
mikenmild

Griff
I’m not actually sure from that which figures you have a problem with or what you think they might mean.
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August 30, 2011 1:59pm
Scott Chris

Actually, what is morally wrong with polygamy? It’s basically sexual capitalism isn’t it? I stand to be corrected.
(taken from the compulsory circumcision thread)
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August 30, 2011 2:25pm
Griff

MM
1) The population numbers are not consistent across the site and are not consistent with Known history

2)Consistently under state the impact and consequence of the musket wars.

3)Twist the reasons and causes of the 1840 to 1860 troubles. Overstate a few skirmishes as wars. Prejudice the settlers as evil and the Maori aggressors as good and just. Maori who stood alongside the Crown are portrait as unimportant or stupid

Spin Spin Spin
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August 30, 2011 2:26pm
Lee01

Scott on Perry:

“In 2006 he said that he believed the Bible to be inerrant.

He also said that those who did not accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior would be going to hell.

He tells us that he is a “firm believer” in the “intelligent design””

Good. He will make a fine President.
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August 30, 2011 2:31pm
Lee01

Berend,

“How do you National voters feel now we know, thanks to wikileaks, that John Key admits he is a socialist?”

He didnt. Do you have a problem with the English language?

“He certainly act likes one.”

Not really.

“When do you guys stop believing the talk and look at this man’s actions?”

We have.

When do you stop flogging a dead horse?
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August 30, 2011 2:33pm
mikenmild

Griff

I don’t know why anyone would wish to underestimate the impact of the Musket Wars. They were one of the most devasting consequences for Maori of European contact.

You would rather term the 1845-1872 conflicts as ‘troubles’ rather than ‘wars’? Why?

You feel the New Zealand Wars (probably the most widely accepted term) were caused by ‘Maori agressors’. Really?
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August 30, 2011 2:38pm
tom hunter

To my mind, the billionaire is an absurdity, and the state has the moral right to steal most of his money.

Wow. I’m grateful that you’re so blunt about it – and yes, that’s socialism with a capital C and a 9mm bullet.

I admit that I’m a little loathe to debate this because it is, as Danyl admitted up front, a reductio ad absurdum, and I always find those better used as examples of silliness rather than something that can be debated in detail.

However, I think your stated rule would be a slippery slope leading to a reductio ad absurdum itself: people would simply make arrangements to not appear as billionaires, in much the same way that the number of people reporting their income as $60,000 per annum in NZ magically increased several-fold after 1999. Sure, you could propose even tougher investigations and all, but that’s the Police State for you.

Buried within your answer seems to be an implicit assumption that the billionaire’s money is somehow locked up in some giant Scrooge McDuck Money Bin, and that all that society sees of it is the minuscule amount spent on consumption (the question asked of Gordon Gecko: how many yachts can you water-ski behind?). Which is why so many Keynesians love the idea of grabbing parts of the billionaires loot and then distributing it to ordinary people for consumer spending: a sweet fit of ideas, which is basically what Sam is describing here.

Pity that the economy is also driven by production, which creates the wealth to be spent and yes, that is a chicken-and-egg situation, but not one that can be fixed simply at the consumption end first, supposedly then pulling out the products. The abject failure of the whole Krugman theory of housing bubble => increased wealth => increased consumer spending => a healthy, growing economy should have put paid to that nonsense even before the giant monetary pissathon of the last three years.

The reality is the money, even if it’s only dumped into bank accounts, has to go and be used somewhere in society simply in order to pay the interest bill – and that means it has to be loaned out to people. One could argue that they will have no income to pay back the loan or even the interest, but loans are often made on the basis of business or personal plans that predict future income streams rather than what’s in the hand – and the more desperate they are to lend, the more slack those demands become. In short, people are creative creatures rather than dumb workhorses plodding along in front of the plough and they’d use that billionaire’s money – and if he wants to get any return on it (aside from the income from his magic porridge pot) he has no choice but to lend it out.

In a sense this scenario has already occurred over the past 30 years and is probably accelerating – which is the basis of the whole singularity theme. And we have seen unemployment as jobs have been destroyed, together with the rise of many billionaires. Whether we’re seeing any more relative to the size of the economy (or “the average wage” or whatever basis of comparison suits) than 120 years ago, or whether such people form a bigger chunk of the economy than during the age of the robber barrons, is up for debate. I think Rockefeller was worth about $200 billion in today’s money alone – and that’s without making relative comparisons to the total wealth of US society at the time. Same with jobs: millions have been created in entirely new areas and industries undreamed of. The doom-laden predictions of mass unemployment in the late 70’s/early 80’s as a result of the silicon chip simply did not happen.

Of course that may eventually happen in a singularity. As I said the other day – it’s beyond economics in the sense of having costless resources. But in that situation the billionaire’s money won’t be worth anything anyway, so they’ll be no need to steal it.
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August 30, 2011 2:39pm
Jimbob

I see the Herald has an extract from Gareth Morgan’s latest novel. I am sorry but the guy needs help. What he is advocating is a socialist paradise, capital would exit NZ faster than the bottle store gets cleaned out on bene day.
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August 30, 2011 2:40pm
Lee01

“To my mind, the billionaire is an absurdity, and the state has the moral right to steal most of his money.”

While I agree that extremes of wealth, and extremes of disparity between rich and poor, are undesirable, I don’t agree that the State therefore has a right to just steal money.

The problem with capitalism in its current form is that there are too few capitalists. We need a long term transformation of the economy to a stakeholder society in which far more people own land, property and a reasonable level of wealth, and who are investors. Which is in part why I agree with Nationals asset sales plan, so long as they keep their commitment to maintain majority New Zealand ownership. We need more mum and dad investors.
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August 30, 2011 2:48pm
Ryan Sproull

The state has no more right to the billionaire’s money than he does. (Which is to say, none.)

As for John Key’s comments about New Zealand’s socialist streak, he was right. Can hardly fault him for that. Hell, even ACT MPs have said they favour a “safety net, not a lifestyle choice” – that’s the same streak showing through. We don’t want people to be able to fall right to the bottom. We’re Kiwis.
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August 30, 2011 2:54pm
Griff

Then why is the reason for signing the treaty given as protection from settlers when many thousands more Maori died at the hands of their fellow Maori, In wars that were still on going and would continue unless the crown took charge.
from http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/treaty/the-treaty-in-brief
” Growing numbers of British migrants arrived in New Zealand in the late 1830s, and there were plans for extensive settlement. Around this time there were large-scale land transactions with Māori, unruly behaviour by some settlers and signs that the French were interested in annexing New Zealand. The British government was initially unwilling to act, but it eventually realised that annexing the country could protect Māori, regulate British subjects and secure commercial interests.”

Does that look like mentioning the musket wars at all.

“The Land Wars”
As much as they were local skirmishes happened over a long period of time and were often about sovereignty and law. Totally separate issues than just the owner ship of land.
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August 30, 2011 2:56pm
mikenmild

Griff
Do you think Maori signed the treaty to gain protection from other Maori?

I prefer the term ‘New Zealand Wars’ – it is more inclusiveof the range of conflicts and issues involved.
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August 30, 2011 3:00pm
Griff

You are well aware that history tells us this is the major reason the treaty was signed.

Why else did they give N Z to the crown?
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August 30, 2011 3:14pm
cha

Man has sex with a pink lilo, admits he has a ‘problem’.
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August 30, 2011 3:51pm
Lee01

“I see the Herald has an extract from Gareth Morgan’s”

They seem to be giving him a lot of attention lately. Can’t see why. His comments on the London riots were just plain stupid.
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August 30, 2011 3:54pm
mikenmild

Griff
I was under the impression that there were several factors behind the treaty. The British Government desired to impose order in a rather messy situation, where uncontrolled colonisation was in prospect. Some Maori welcomed a degree of British authority to control the actions of European settlers and traders. Some Maori seemed to have thought the treaty would increase the amount of trade available.

I’m not aware of much evidence that Maori thought the British would protect them from other Maori. As the Musket Wars had been over for the best part of ten years, there wouldn’t have appeared to be an imminent threat. This is not to discount this factor completely, as in some parts, such as Wellington, local Maori welcomed settlement as a potential bulwark against threats.
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August 30, 2011 4:02pm
Lee01

Good to see some sanity finally breaking out somewhere in the West other than the USA.

UK Govt backs informed consent – time for NZ to

http://bobmccoskrie.com/?p=1874

Note the bias in the Gaurdian article. If this had been some trendy lefty policy it would have been the government “listening to the people”, but instead its framed as “caving in”.
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August 30, 2011 4:10pm
Scott Chris

Ryan – my assertion that the state has the right to redistribute the billionaire’s excess wealth is based on utilitarian morality.

Charles – I see nothing wrong with using a pink lilo as a sex toy, but I’d still like to know what you think is morally wrong with polygamy, which is essentially sexual capitalism. (provided one is not cheating on one’s lilo)
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August 30, 2011 4:29pm
Weihana

mikenmild – thanks for the hitchens piece on Perry. Very good. 🙂
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August 30, 2011 4:36pm
Lee01

Scott,

Just for a moment let me indulge your idea that utilitarianism has anything to do with morality, how does it justify your idea that the state has the right to steal most of his money?
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August 30, 2011 4:39pm
Lee01

Weihana,

Chris’s brother Peter is far saner:

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/

He writes very good books to:

http://www.amazon.com/Rage-Against-God-Atheism-Faith/dp/0310320313
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August 30, 2011 4:45pm
Weihana

# Ed Snack (485) Says:
August 30th, 2011 at 11:20 am

Funny how people seem so worried about Perry’s supposed religious beliefs (is he or is he not a “Dominionist” ?), and yet the same people gave Barack Obama a pass for attending for an extended period the Rev Jeremiah Wright’s church with its hate America and other genuinely obnoxious beliefs.

—————————————————-

Jeremiah Wright’s controversial statements were more politics than religion. Moreover, whether I agree with his political opinions or not, I do get sick of the idiotic position that any criticism of american policy or american governments is the equivalent of “hating America”. That sort of thinking is very boneheaded and closed minded and it is that type of thinking which I consider more anti-American than mere criticism of government and government policy.
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August 30, 2011 4:51pm
Griff

MM

You should read more than you “apologist leftist propaganda”

Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket_Wars

Crosby says over half of all iwi suffered major population loss through battle casualties, cannibalism, or enslavement (for instance, the Moriori in the Chatham Islands). A few iwi, for example in Nelson, were exterminated. Perhaps the most important outcome of the musket wars was the bitter legacy of inter-hapū and -iwi mistrust stemming from the extreme violence with which they were fought. The constant use of treachery as a battlefield tactic, coupled with the enslavement of so many, left a long legacy of mistrust. The second to last battle of the Musket Wars was a few months before the Treaty of Waitangi was signed. A taua (war party) from the Te Awamutu area attacked and slaughtered Arawa people (Rotorua area) and bought back 60 basket-loads of human flesh to eat.[1] The missionaries and Christian Maori were sickened and moved out of the pa to establish a separate missionary village. The last battle was at Tauranga in 1842,when a Hauraki Iwi raiding toa attacked a pa. Chief Taraia claimed this was utu (revenge ) for encroachment on his land and other issues. The Colonial Secretary Willoughby Shortland carried out an investigation and found two bodies had been eaten. Te Mutu, the defeated chief, told Shortland that if he caught Taraia he would eat him. Missionaries had been able to gain the trust of many iwi, while Māori remained wary of other iwi outside their rohe (area). This was the immediate background to the signing of the treaty of Waitangi in 1840
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August 30, 2011 5:01pm
Scott Chris

Lee – Based on the ethical theory holding that the proper course of action is the one that maximizes the overall “good” of the society. Whilst I acknowledge the arbitrariness of utilitarianism, I am at a loss to come up with a better formula.

Utilitarian theory holds that all men on a fundamental level are of equal worth, so when men are measured in terms of material worth, the billionaire is worth a thousand millionaires which is at odds with the first principal. There are other measures of worth which are relevant to utilitarianism, but none that would amount to a magnitude of thousands.

It follows then that the billionaire is disproportionately rewarded by capitalism and the utilitarian state claims a moral right to adjust that reward.
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August 30, 2011 5:02pm
Scott Chris

oops – principle not principal
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August 30, 2011 5:07pm
mikenmild

Griff

Where are you gong with all this? It’s like a John Ansell blog post but without the argument.
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August 30, 2011 5:08pm
Weihana

“…faith in God is both a safeguard against the collapse of civilisation into moral chaos and the best antidote to what he sees as the dangerous idea of earthly perfection through utopianism”

Lee01,

Faith, as a means for acquiring knowledge of reality, is neither sane nor insane: it is just stupid. Nowhere in our everyday lives do normal people acquire knowledge through faith. It’s simply impractical and impossible. We can’t simply have “faith” that we can walk through walls as we will soon experience, through pain, that this is just not possible. Instead we rely on observation and reason to discern that there are things such as walls and that other solid objects, like a human body, don’t pass through them (quantum mechanics aside).

Faith peddlers therefore dwell in the realm of things unknown because no one can prove them wrong, and for them that is all they need to peddle their made up fantasy. They are no more worth listening to than the person who has “faith” in a Flying Spaghetti Monster or a magical teaport orbiting the Sun.

Further, given Christopher’s medical condition and his inability to speak in public it is noteworthy that he is still able to demonstrate such clarity of mind to write a very cogent and eloquent article showing Perry as the faith-whore that he is. Whether or not you agree with this portrayal of Perry, no reasonable person could find that his writing demonstrated a lack of sanity.
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August 30, 2011 5:10pm
Weihana

Might I suggest an alternative approach to ethics.

The first question, before you consider what is right and wrong, is what it means for things to be right and wrong. In a general sense all prescriptive statements of what “ought” to occur are conditional on what outcomes are desired.

Morality therefore is simply a tool to guide action. It is the ability of our minds to evaluate how different courses of action might produce different outcomes. The basic question therefore is: what do I value in life and what principles of action will achieve the goals I desire?

This does not mean that morality is purely subjective because you cannot subjectively choose which principles of action will produce which outcomes. You only get to choose that which you desire in life. Do you desire life, liberty and happiness? Then reason dictates that only certain types of action will produce those outcomes and other types of behaviour will tend not to produce those outcomes.
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August 30, 2011 5:19pm
Weihana

Scott Chris

Lee – Based on the ethical theory holding that the proper course of action is the one that maximizes the overall “good” of the society. Whilst I acknowledge the arbitrariness of utilitarianism, I am at a loss to come up with a better formula.

————————————

What does it mean for something to be “good”?
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August 30, 2011 5:33pm

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