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August 17, 2011 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 17 August 2011

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General Debate

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Luc Hansen

Lee

I see Godwin’s Law is getting a good workout!

Ignoring all your skilled ad hominems and Hasbara above, in the case of the four year old, was it the right thing to do, in the name of humanity?

The background to these Israeli laws, of course, is that they are enacted in order to maintain the so-called Jewish majority – plainly racist in intent and in effect, but never mind – is arresting a four year old the actions we expect of a “western” nation?
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August 17, 2011 2:42pm
Luc Hansen

Scott, I think that was a yes.
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August 17, 2011 2:44pm
Lee01

“I see Godwin’s Law is getting a good workout”

Godwin’s law does not apply when the accusation is accurate.

“Ignoring all your skilled ad hominems”

I have not engaged in any.

In answer your your other question, I repeat that singling out Israel in the way yuu are doing is biased hyspocrisy and double standards.

“The background to these Israeli laws, of course, is that they are enacted in order to maintain the so-called Jewish majority – plainly racist in intent and in effect”

Not at all. There is nothing racist about ensuring their peoples future. There IS something racist about your demands that they commit national suicide.

“we expect of a “western” nation?”

Who is “we”? I seriously doubt that I share your liberal-left “values” about what makes a good Western nation.
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August 17, 2011 2:46pm
Griff

PG I have had the same virus infect my computer as I run a log in that is separate from my administrate account it was unable to infest my admin account running malware software from admin cleared it
It has infected computers from other sources
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August 17, 2011 2:47pm
mikenmild

Luc

Lee did have a (small) point about Sand’s book. I’m grateful to him for that link, although thinking Schama’s review debunks the book as ‘pseudo-history’ tells us a bit more about Lee’s state of mind – not quite unhinged, but defintiely not open.
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August 17, 2011 2:50pm
Lee01

“Scott, I think that was a yes.”

In fact it was a very clear NO.
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August 17, 2011 2:50pm
Lee01

“tells us a bit more about Lee’s state of mind – not quite unhinged”

If by “open” you mean nothing of value stays in, thats a fault of of yours and Luc’s, not mine. 🙂
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August 17, 2011 2:52pm
Lee01

To clarify for Luc’s benefit,

A Christian Zionist is generally someone who would say YES to Scott’s question. I am not a Christian Zionist in that sense.

If Christian Zionist simply means someone who happens to be Christian and a supporter of Zionism, then I am.
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August 17, 2011 2:55pm
Lee01

“although thinking Schama’s review debunks the book as ‘pseudo-history’ ”

Read the first link.
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August 17, 2011 2:55pm
Luc Hansen

mm

I have read rebuttals of Sand, and rebuttals of those rebuttals. No work of history is complete but Sand’s is compelling due to his own history and position in Israeli society, not to mention the extensive research he undertook prior to writing the book (which he could not publish until he gained tenure within Israel).

Benny Morris, for example, backed off his earliest claims of ethnic cleansing as fast as his little legs could carry him once the going got tough! Sand is made of sterner stuff.

Do you know about the SHIT list?

Lee

I take it you are communicating from Israel? What’s the going rate for your job?
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August 17, 2011 2:57pm
mikenmild

Made me think a bit more about pseudo-history though.

Proper pseudo-history is a mysterious and wonderful thing. Possibly the best example would be the Gavin Menzies stuff – ‘1421: The Year China Discovered the World’ and its successor. We have some homegrown stuff too, on Celtic New Zealand, the Waitaha Nation, etc and that book John Ansell’s been pushing about how nasty Maori were (and are). All fascinating stuff.
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August 17, 2011 2:57pm
Viking2

Cheap imports see bed factory jobs go

Representatives of New Zealand Comfort Group met with Dunlop Living staff yesterday to let them know how they would be affected by the restructuring of the business.

As a Kiwi business that is passionate about investing in New Zealand manufacturing, we regret any losses of manufacturing jobs,” Taylor said. “However, for the long-term growth and success of our industry, we have to be prepared to take some tough decisions now.”

Rachel Mackintosh, a director of organising at the Engineering, Printing and Manufacturing Union (EPMU), said the union had “an issue” with New Zealand Comfort Group’s processes around the restructuring.

“It looks like they are steam-rolling ahead with the process without putting a proposal before making decisions,” she said. “We might be in some sort of conflict with the company about the process that they’re using.”

Mackintosh said an EPMU organiser would be on site at Dunlop Living today to offer support to its members.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10745587

Next these stupid EPMU turkeys will be moaning because Bluescope shut the steel mill. As they are about to do in New South Wales.
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August 17, 2011 2:59pm
Lee01

“but Sand’s is compelling due to his own history and position in Israeli society”

Not really. His own history and position are irrelevent for determining the value of his work.

“not to mention the extensive research he undertook prior to writing the book”

As the two links show, especially the first, his “extensive research” is a joke.

Admit the truth. You trot out this swivelled eyed loon because you think quoting a Jew gives your hate-filled claims about Israel legitimacy.

He’s your Lord Monckton.

“I take it you are communicating from Israel”

Nope.
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August 17, 2011 3:07pm
Scott Chris

The Word of God on the subjects of territory and doubt:

Exodus 23:31

31 “I will establish your borders from the Red Sea[a] to the Mediterranean Sea,[b] and from the desert to the Euphrates River. I will give into your hands the people who live in the land, and you will drive them out before you.

John 20:27

27 Then saith He to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
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August 17, 2011 3:12pm
Lee01

Scott,

Are you a Christian Zionist?
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August 17, 2011 3:16pm
mikenmild

Scott

I don’t think Lee is a Christian Zionist, but he seems to be a bit shy about what exactly he wants to see. I’d just like to know how much of a ‘population transfer policy’ (Lee’s term for ethnic cleansing) he thinks would be required to establish Eretz Yisrael.
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August 17, 2011 3:21pm
Scott Chris

Lee

No, I’m agnostic. I was merely trying to get you to admit that your sympathy for Israel is based on your belief in Divine Right, and therefore irrational from my point of view. I didn’t succeed.
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August 17, 2011 3:22pm
Lee01

“how much of a ‘population transfer policy’ (Lee’s term for ethnic cleansing)”

Its not “ethnic cleansing” its terrorist cleansing.
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August 17, 2011 3:23pm
mikenmild

Lee

What percentage of the Palestinian population of Gaza and the West Bank would you classify as ‘terrorists’?
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August 17, 2011 3:25pm
Lee01

Scott,

That would not make it irrational. But nevertheless my support for Israel is not based on Scripture. All the promises to the ancient Hebrews were fulfilled in Christ and no longer apply.

My support is based on purely secular reasons.
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August 17, 2011 3:25pm
Lee01

“What percentage of the Palestinian population of Gaza and the West Bank would you classify as ‘terrorists’?”

All of them.
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August 17, 2011 3:26pm
Scott Chris

Mike

My view of Lee’s ‘population transfer policy’ is that it is pragmatic rather than insidious
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August 17, 2011 3:27pm
Luc Hansen

Lee01 starts from the biblical myth of an ancient, great Israelite kingdom. That’s his Monckton moment.

At that point, he departs from the archaeological (scientific) record.

If he existed, Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was an Arab. The early adherents to Judaism were Arabs. Not Europeans whose claim to being Semitic rests upon the sleight of hand of adoption of a near-extinct Semitic language.

And really, the notion that immigration destroys national identity is belied by the facts and merely an excuse to continue to to run an apartheid state.

Lee, I don’t claim Israel is illegitimate. Many nations arose by war. Israel is one of these. Israel is a fully fledged member of the UN and is legitimate.

But like all nations, if its actions become so egregiously wrong it may, over time, lose that legitimacy, eg apartheid South Africa, then it will be its own fault.

Currently, I fully support the international consensus of two states (but not the two peoples nonsense – we are all humans).
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August 17, 2011 3:27pm
Scott Chris

On second thoughts….
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August 17, 2011 3:31pm
Lee01

“Lee01 starts from the biblical myth of an ancient, great Israelite kingdom”

The archeological evidence for that is overwhelming.

“If he existed, Jesus was a Jew. Jesus was an Arab. The early adherents to Judaism were Arabs.”

Sorry, but the facts do not support this claim. Arab occupation of most of the lands they currently abide in did not occur until after the advent of Islam. Arabs are a branch of the Semitic peoples, but not the same branch as the Jews, or for that matter the Copts in Egypt.

“And really, the notion that immigration destroys national identity is belied by the facts”

On the contrary, the facts clearly support it. The ancient rights and national identity of the British people are being destroyed by mass immigration and the criminalisation of desent.

“Lee, I don’t claim Israel is illegitimate”

By questioning the ethnic legitimacy of the Jewish people to lay claim to the land you are in fact doing so.

“I fully support the international consensus of two states”

We already have a two state solution. Jordan is the other state. Had the original concensus on that been followed, including the peaceful transer of Arabs who do not wish to live in the state of Israel to other parts of Jordan, and the peaceful transfer of Jews living in Arab states to Israel. the current problem would not exist.

But the Arabs reneged on this deal, blocked Jews from moving to Israel, threatened and attempted the military annihilation of Israel not once but twice, and flooded the so-called West bank with refugees after those wars to create the myth of “palestine”.

The fault for the current sutuation clearly lies with the Arabs.
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August 17, 2011 3:39pm
mikenmild

Scott

I think we can see now why Lee is so opposed to humanitarian aid being sent to Gaza. Even if it doesn’t support Hamas directly, the aid would just allow ‘terrorists’ (everyone in Gaza) to survive.

And Lee was comparing Luc to Nazis!
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August 17, 2011 3:41pm
Lee01

I’m not opposed to humanitarian aid, I just think it should be monitored very carefully. Pointing out the fact that Arabs in the so-called West bank and Gaza overwhelmingly support terrorist actions against Israel does not make me a Nazi. After all, where not HAMAS democratically voted in by the people in Gaza?
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August 17, 2011 3:48pm
redeye

So Israel has a right to Palestine because of their history with the land? Please don’t tell Maori. They may take my farm.
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August 17, 2011 3:52pm
Lee01

“So Israel has a right to Palestine because of their history with the land? Please don’t tell Maori. They may take my farm.”

Unlike many on the Right who post on this blog I don’t have a problem with legitimate Maori claims and fair treaty settlements, and I agree with John Keys approach to the issue and his willingness to work with the Maori Party.
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August 17, 2011 3:54pm
mikenmild

Sorry Lee, it was Other_Andy pushing the line yesterday about US aid to Gaza.
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August 17, 2011 3:58pm
Lee01

Fair enough. Bye for now all.
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August 17, 2011 4:00pm
Luc Hansen

Lee’s clocked out. He’s earned his money today!
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August 17, 2011 4:06pm
mikenmild

What are we going to talk about now?
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August 17, 2011 4:09pm
Christopher Thomson

Well I’m still waiting for Murray to answer my question.
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August 17, 2011 4:12pm
mikenmild

New topic wanted.
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August 17, 2011 5:01pm
Christopher Thomson

National use of Urgency. Apparently the scheduled members day has been cancelled. Does this mean the VSM Bill is still in a holding pattern?
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August 17, 2011 5:10pm
joana

a recycled topic for you MnM
On the proposed visit of cabinet members to CHCh on Sept 4th..Of about more than 50 comments in the Press comments section on this topic , almost all of them are negative. These carpetbaggers are not welcome..they are seen as the” rich visiting the rich” for lunch. Bazley on 1,400 a day , Shipley on 1,000 a day etc. It is also seen as blatant electioneering.. It shows just how out of touch with reality these people are that they would ever have considered this to be a ”good idea.”
There is bound to be a protest which will get more TV time than the hooley itself.
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August 17, 2011 5:16pm
grumpyoldhori

redeye good farm is it ? fully stocked, good water, fences etc etc etc ? this idle hori does not want to do too much work when we hories reclaim all the land 🙂
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August 17, 2011 5:26pm
grumpyoldhori

Interesting argument about those who should be allowed to come and stay in a country, Israel is a country for the Jewish people because they are the majority.

Well, since in reality NZ is a country for heathens since we make up the majority we have the absolute right to toss out any religious types.

We will start with the destiny mob, then any god selling types, Mormons etc etc etc.
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August 17, 2011 5:36pm
Griff

“this idle hori does not want to do too much work when we hories reclaim all the land”

Maori cargo cult

Watched a house burn down on Maori land the farmer of said land said
1 Can not get young Maori interested in farming he hires backpackers for temporary work Maori are not interested in working
2 was glad the house was burning as the trust rented it to tribal members who caused him no end of problems stealing stock cutting fencers etc
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August 17, 2011 5:50pm
starboard

New flashmob craze in the states…20 or 30 people turn up at a business eg dairy , supermarket , clothes shop etc and rob it blind..just saw a bit of it on the news…every single person involved was black.
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August 17, 2011 6:21pm
mikenmild

joana

I’m not surprised the folk down there are upset. What a stupid idea. What is it supposed to achieve?
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August 17, 2011 6:30pm
Steve

New topic?
It is snowing in Tawa, better make a run for it before the roads are closed Milkymilo
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August 17, 2011 6:41pm
joana

MnM
yes it is extraordinarily insensitive..as I said , it just shows how completely out off touch these people are. There has already been a lot of negative publicity about other ”rubberneckers” and the red zone.
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August 17, 2011 6:46pm
nasska

The International Council of Man Laws.

1: Under no circumstances may two men share an umbrella.
2: It is OK for a man to cry ONLY under the following circumstances:
(a) When a heroic dog dies to save its master.
(b) The moment Angelina Jolie starts unbuttoning her Blouse.
(c) After wrecking your boss’s car.
(d) When she is using her teeth.
3: Any man who brings a camera to a stag night may be legally killed and eaten by his friends.
4: If you’ve known a guy for more than 24 hours, his sister is off limits forever unless you actually marry her.
5: Moaning about the brand of free beer in a mate’s fridge is forbidden. However complain at will if the temperature is unsuitable.
6: No man shall ever be required to buy a birthday present for another man. In fact, even remembering your mate’s birthday is strictly optional. At that point, you must celebrate at a strip bar of the birthday boy’s choice.
7: In the mini-bus, the strongest bladder determines pit stops, not the weakest.
8: When stumbling upon other blokes watching a sporting event, you may ask the score of the game in progress, but you may never ask who’s playing.
9: You may fart in front of a woman only after you have brought her to climax. If you trap her head under the covers for the purpose of flatulent entertainment (commonly known as a Dutch oven), she’s officially your girlfriend.
10: It is permissible to drink a fruity alcohol drink only when you’re sunning on a tropical beach … and it’s delivered by a topless model and only when it’s free.
11: Only in situations of mortal and/or physical peril are you allowed to kick another guy in the nuts.
12: Unless you’re in prison, never fight naked.
13: Friends don’t let friends wear Speedos. Ever. Issue closed.
14: If a man’s fly is down, that’s his problem, you didn’t see anything.
15: Women who claim they ‘love to watch sports’ must be treated as spies until they demonstrate knowledge of the game and the ability to drink as much as the other sports watchers.
16: A man in the company of a hot, suggestively dressed woman must remain sober enough to fight.
17: Never hesitate to reach for the last beer or the last slice of pizza, but not both, that’s just greedy.
18: If you compliment a guy on his six-pack, you’d better be talking about his choice of beer.
19: Never join your girlfriend or wife in discussing a friend of yours, except if she’s withholding sex pending your response.
20: Never talk to a man in a bathroom unless you are on equal footing i.e., both urinating, both waiting in line, etc. For all other situations, an almost imperceptible nod is all the conversation you need.
21: Never allow a telephone conversation with a woman to go on longer than you are able to have sex with her. Keep a stopwatch by the phone. Hang up if necessary.
22: The morning after you and a girl who was formerly ‘just a friend’ have carnal, drunken monkey sex. The fact that you’re feeling weird and guilty is no reason for you not to nail each other again before the discussion occurs about what a big mistake it was.
23: It is acceptable for you to drive her car. It is not acceptable for her to drive yours.
24: Thou shall not buy a car in the colours of brown, pink, lime green, orange or sky blue.
25: The girl who replies to the question ‘What do you want for Christmas?’ with ‘If you loved me, you’d know what I want!’ gets an Xbox 360. End of story.
26: There is no reason for guys to watch Ice Skating or Men’s Gymnastics. Ever.
27: It is not permissible to make eye contact when watching porn with your mates. Furthermore, this is only one of two circumstances under which it is allowed to have an erection with friends in the room, the other being when you are ‘spit roasting’ a woman.

I hope this clears up any confusion.
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August 17, 2011 7:00pm
Viking2

Benefit cards ‘highly intrusive’ – Bennett
Last updated 06:29 18/08/2011

Social Development Minister Paula Bennett earlier this year described special beneficiary payment cards as “highly intrusive”, saying they would “rob individuals of their freedom of choice”.

Under the Government’s new youth welfare policy, announced by Prime Minister John Key at the weekend, 16- and 17-year-old beneficiaries would receive a payment card for food and clothes from approved stores.

Key said he made no apologies for the “hands-on” approach, and Bennett has stood by that position.

However, a letter tabled in Parliament yesterday suggested Bennett’s attitude to such payment cards had changed substantially.

The letter, written by Bennett in March, said the writer’s suggestion for a special credit card system for beneficiaries would require the Government to make “moral judgements about the appropriateness of each decision”.

“Such oversight by the Crown would be highly intrusive and would rob individuals of their freedom of choice,” Bennett wrote.

Hahahaha what a bunch of unprincipled shits.
Wake up Kiwi’s and stop voting for these pratts.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5464660/Benefit-cards-highly-intrusive-Bennett
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August 18, 2011 7:10am
Viking2

Another national Policy stuff up!

Parents taking advantage of immigration loophole
By Lincoln Tan
5:30 AM Thursday Aug 18, 2011

Immigration New Zealand estimates there are about 1,000 overstayer children.

Migrant parents are deliberately overstaying their visas so their children can qualify as domestic students, and then leave them under the care of friends and relatives to enjoy two years of “free” education.

Under a new policy introduced last year, dependent children of parents who have been living unlawfully here for six months or more are eligible for domestic funding for up to two years.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10745751
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August 18, 2011 7:23am

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