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August 15, 2011 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 15 August 2011

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General Debate

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Elaycee

Brrrrr….
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August 15, 2011 8:02am
joana

See Winds of Jihad
Mark Steyn : Everything in Britain is policed except crime.
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August 15, 2011 8:15am
Scott Chris

A jury has acquitted a prisoner who gave a fellow inmate brain damage with a pool cue, but the verdict does not mean freedom for Joseph Warren Lepper.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/5438925/Jury-acquits-over-cue-incident

Umm…. perhaps allowing a violent rapist access to a pool cue mightn’t have been the best idea?
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August 15, 2011 8:15am
Brian Smaller

@joana – I read that Steyn column the other day – it was very, very well written and made for depressing reading.
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August 15, 2011 8:16am
flipper

Global WARMING?
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August 15, 2011 8:18am
tvb

I see Pawlenty has dropped out of the Presidential race. Did you not say he was a man to watch. Never mind the Texas Governor Rick Perry is a man to watch.
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August 15, 2011 8:19am
Scott Chris

Reid posted this link yesterday:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28715.htm

It’s a channel 4 doco about Rupert Murcoch. Worth watching.
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August 15, 2011 8:21am
Longknives

This is great, the career beneficiaries and their feral supporters are running for cover!
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5443275/Teen-mums-told-to-get-back-to-work

Best quote- “Green Party co-leader Metiria Turei said requiring teen parents to be in education or training despite the needs of the child – such as breastfeeding and maternal bonding – could damage the connection between parent and child.”

Surely the ‘connection between parent and child’ could be damaged by watching Mum get off her face on beer and weed every day? Or by Mum not even having the skills/motivation to feed, wash and look after you??
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August 15, 2011 8:23am
Lance

@Scott Chris
Yes we must extend full rights and expensive lawyers to shit bags who spend all their life damaging people and sponging off the state.
It doesn’t make one a prophet to predict this piece of crap will damage yet more people.
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August 15, 2011 8:26am
Elaycee

@longknives – agree, it was another example of a ‘balanced’ article by John Harteveldt… Hah!

It started with the comment: A former youth beneficiary says she is horrified by the National Party’s welfare clampdown”…

But a few paragraphs down, it emerges that the “former youth beneficiary” is none other than one Felicity Perry – the same perennial protester and current student who has an anti government opinion on everything. In fact, she has also expressed her views on behalf of Peace Action Wellington [part of Minto’s rag tag outfit] / the Wellington group that has formed to challenge ACC’s proposed guidelines / the protest against the ‘terror raids’ / the Peoples Moratorium Enforcement Agency [anti GE] / etc.

Of course, she also has the usual arrest record – not exactly someone you’d want your son to bring home for dinner.

Nice one, John. Nice one.
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August 15, 2011 8:30am
David Garrett

Elaycee: I didnt know who she was, but did find myself thinking ” Ah yes, now there’s a true representative of a former ‘youth beneficiary’, PhD student…” lots of them about…

What is her thesis on do you know?
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August 15, 2011 8:35am
Murray

National wants to ensure youth unemployed are fed and have electricity with their rent paid up and see that they don’t get into financial touble… those evil evil evil bastards!
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August 15, 2011 8:36am
Brian Smaller

A jury has acquitted a prisoner who gave a fellow inmate brain damage with a pool cue, but the verdict does not mean freedom for Joseph Warren Lepper.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/5438925/Jury-acquits-over-cue-incident

Umm…. perhaps allowing a violent rapist access to a pool cue mightn’t have been the best idea?

But he was in a Faith based unit.
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August 15, 2011 8:38am
Brian Smaller

@Murray – but that IS evil. They are better to give these youth money and leave them to fester on the scrap heap – because that has worked so well for the last few decades.
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August 15, 2011 8:40am
vto

John Key, ha ha what a muppet. Examples;

On Breakfast tv this morning he says “our welfare system is unsustainable” and three sentences later he says “we can afford our welfare system”.

He thinks that inflation is under control, if you take out the effect of GST.

And as for the welfare “reforms” ha ha ha what a joke. Nanny state nanny state nanny state

pathetic liar. he is turning into another bill english. the guy is a dick.
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August 15, 2011 8:41am
Griff

How many post will come out with its cold so that disproves AGW today.
HINT Learn something about climate change before you spout your crap.
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August 15, 2011 8:42am
Elaycee

@David Garrett – “What is her thesis on do you know?”

Felicity Perry: Dept of Film, Television and Media. Auckland University. Thesis Topic – In Vogue: An Analysis of the Normative Subject Positions Offered by Fashion Discourse

Riveting.
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August 15, 2011 8:42am
vto

Oh, and David Cameron in the UK tooo….

Thinks people wont notice that he says “I think people deserve a second chance” when it comes to his corrupt and criminal staff member Andy Coulson, but he says “zero tolerance” to the criminal rioters.

He is just like Key. No wonder people have no respect for political leaders. David Garrett had the same issue with Rodney Hide when it came to second chances for some and not others.
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August 15, 2011 8:46am
joana

Brian re Mark Steyn article , a very Orwellian society and now the police and politicians are arguing; meanwhile ordinary people are suffering.
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August 15, 2011 8:48am
David Garrett

vto: what part of the phase “THREE strikes” (emphasis added to help you) do you find difficult to comprehend?
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August 15, 2011 8:52am
stu-tron

Is Felicity Perry this Felicity Perry?

March for Freedom in Wellington this weekend
Submitted by Anonymous on 26 October 2007 – 6:58am
in Civil & Human RightsLocal
25 October 2007

Press Release – for immediate release

From: Organisers of march in support for those arrested in the ‘terror’ raids

Supporters of those arrested in the so-called ‘terror’ raids on October 15 will march in Wellington on Saturday 27 October as part of an international day of solidarity for the prisoners.

The marchers are asking for the release of all prisoners; the charges to be dropped; and for the repeal of the Terrorism Suppression Act and its upcoming amendment.

“We find it appalling that in our supposedly ‘free’ country, the Terrorism Suppression Act allows people to be imprisoned for their political beliefs” said Felicity Perry, one of the organisers of the March.

The marchers will meet at Midland Park on Lambton Quay at 12noon and will march to Civic Square to listen to speakers, local musicians, and hear messages from those arrested.

“The arrests are another act in the long history of colonisation in Aotearoa, once again those who advocate tino rangatiratanga are being locked up,” Perry said.

“There is widespread support throughout New Zealand and the world for those arrested,” said Perry. Protests are occurring in Auckland, Christchurch, Hamilton, Whanganui, Melbourne, London, Berlin, San Francisco, Ottawa, and Mexico.

For more information, contact Felicity Perry, 021 042 5962.
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August 15, 2011 8:52am
starboard

“For more information, contact Felicity Perry, 021 042 5962.”

oh look..theres her phone number…MUWHAHAHAHAHA!! Go on..you know you want to…
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August 15, 2011 9:01am
Elaycee

@stu-tron: “Is Felicity Perry this Felicity Perry?”

Yup. One and the same…. 🙁
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August 15, 2011 9:08am
dime

dam its cold!

maybe the govt can tax me more and that will make it less cold..
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August 15, 2011 9:14am
Murray

Just cut out the middle man and burn $10 notes dime.
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August 15, 2011 9:15am
mikenmild

It was a balanced anough article. It had John Key and Paula Bennet giving their ideas, such as they are. It had Metirai Turei and Felicity Perry giving their perspectives, and then some FAQs at the end of the article. Perhaps the reporter wasn’t able to find anyone to say something along the lines of: “If only the government had been tougher on me I would have made a success of my life”.

I suspect some would only be happy if this policy was greeted in the media by the equivalent of the rapturous applause of the National Part conference goers.
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August 15, 2011 9:19am
gravedodger

@ griff 08 42, very interesting POV.
Could you provide any background as to why the abnormally large High extending from the Antarctic to the Tropics with the three supporting Low centers was brought about by man burning Carbon, oh and what the influence of the major volcanic activity around the Pacific Rim may have contributed.
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August 15, 2011 9:21am
Longknives

I hadn’t heard of Felicity Perry the activist so I googled her. Frighteningly it also provided a picture- Pin-Up girl for the far left??
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August 15, 2011 9:22am
mikenmild

Longknives

Do we even have a far left in NZ?
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August 15, 2011 9:24am
Murray

Get a mirror.
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August 15, 2011 9:27am
Longknives

Mikenmild- Seeing as you placed the words “Meteria Turia” and “balanced article” in the same paragraph- I won’t even bother attempting to answer your query….
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August 15, 2011 9:28am
joana

David G.
re vto three strikes etc…The cost !! been to the US lately? Are you digging deep ? No , I didn’t think so.
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August 15, 2011 9:29am
dime

“But Aucklander Felicity Perry said it was highly patronising to take away a young person’s financial independence.”

lmao oh no! we cant patronise the children who live off the tax payer haha

this woman is studying for a Phd.. so shes probably still living off tax payers. great.
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August 15, 2011 9:32am
mikenmild

Longknives

The Greens are not what most people would consider to be the ‘far left’, but thanks for clarifying your measurement scale.
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August 15, 2011 9:33am
James Stephenson

joana – could you be any more slack and lazy? The only similarity between our legislation and the US is the number three.
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August 15, 2011 9:34am
James Stephenson

miken – that’s only because when “most people” hear the word “Green” in a polical context, they think of the fluffy international brand, rather than the reality of Bradford, Locke et al.
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August 15, 2011 9:37am
Scott Chris

Mikenmild

You asked if there was a far left left, right?

http://workersparty.org.nz/about/

Left, right, left, right, HALT!
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August 15, 2011 9:38am
mikenmild

Scott

Yeah, that’s more like it, though they are probably barely socialist, maybe more like welfare capitalists.
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August 15, 2011 9:41am
joana

judge someone else James..The only difference between the US and NZ in the three strikes policy is timing..they have had it far much longer than we have..so they are already closing schools.
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August 15, 2011 9:43am
mikenmild

joana

A friend told me while ago that in California the percentage of state funds spent on education had declined dramatically over the last ten years, while the percentage spent on prisons had risen in almost exact proportion.
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August 15, 2011 9:47am
jcuk

The current blast of cold air from down south seems typical of the extremes of global warming though I remember it happening a couple of times, different years, since 1967. Extrems of hot and cold, though it seems more cold extremes than the lovely hot late january and februarys we used to have …. maybe my blood is getting thinner.

Interesting in that bastian of left wing support there are no protests in Dunedin …. canny scots? or its too cold? PG too effective?
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August 15, 2011 9:47am
Falafulu Fisi

Elaycee said…
Felicity Perry: Dept of Film, Television and Media. Auckland University. Thesis Topic – In Vogue: An Analysis of the Normative Subject Positions Offered by Fashion Discourse

University of Auckland should kill such Department as those courses belong at poly-technical schools. Why compete with polytech schools on courses which they are much better at running them? They should shut that Department down (including other useless ones as Pacific Island Dept, Gender Study Dept, Maori Dept, etc,…) then divert that funds into other worthy Departments which are struggling to finance their R&Ds. It won’t be too long before Auckland Uni introduce PhD programs in Astrology.
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August 15, 2011 9:49am
jcuk

If the three strikes was more literal, and used in schools, instead of suspensions, then it would be less needed in adult life and save the taxpayer forking out for more and more prisons.
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August 15, 2011 9:52am
tom hunter

In the wake of the WSJ’s oped comparing the Tea Partiers to “hobbits”, followed by McCain picking up the theme in the Senate, the PJM team have decided to explore the analogy and see how it stands up in The Middle Earth Guide to Campaign 2012.

Couple of examples:

The first leg on this journey is figuring out what the Ring represents in modern political discourse. Since the Tea Party is trying to cast it into the fire, it must be American government spending and debt (which includes deficits, of course).

That would make Congressman Paul Ryan Frodo since he knows more about that burden than anyone; and thus Samwise Gamgee must be John Boehner because he helps Frodo and he cries a lot.

You can read for yourself who has been cast as The Dark Lord, and Saruman.
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August 15, 2011 9:52am
jcuk

Astrology is a worthy science and been around a lot longer than those other things.
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August 15, 2011 9:54am
Elaycee

@Falafulu Fisi says: “They should shut that Department down (including other useless ones as Pacific Island Dept, Gender Study Dept, Maori Dept, etc,…) then divert that funds into other worthy Departments which are struggling to finance their R&Ds.”

Couldn’t agree more. Many are a complete WOFTAM.
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August 15, 2011 9:55am
mikenmild

Just did a quick calculation here and note that over the past ten years we have increased our spending on education by about 30% and our spending on corrections by about 90%.
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August 15, 2011 9:57am
James Stephenson

joana – no, the US has a much wider scope of qualifying offences and typically the third “strike” lands you a life sentence rather than the maximum sentence for that offence. Nobody in NZ is going to get life imprisonment for shoplifting golf clubs.
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August 15, 2011 10:03am
Other_Andy

A short history of climate science hysteria

Tim Blair recently posted this list of things (http://tinyurl.com/3eaqk4w) that the media have trumpeted as being the “first casualties of climate change”.
I thought it would be an interesting exercise to check the veracity of each story – but what I was not expecting is that every story up until 2010 (after which some of the claims are too recent to verify one way or another) has either been completely debunked, or has since had some serious doubts placed on it.
So the following examples have not been cherry picked – it’s a quick analysis of every claim made about “the first casualty of global warming” up until 2010.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/62435/a-short-history-of-climate-science-hysteria/
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August 15, 2011 10:08am
nasska

joana

On Saturday night’s “Another case for three strikes thread” you seemed in agreement that quite a few offenders who were likely to qualify for 3S sentencing were probably more in need of accommodation in secure mental health units. If our masters were prepared to front up & replace such facilities which were unwisely closed in the 80’s those left serving a third strike sentence would be anti social career criminals who scorned attempts at rehabilitation.

Do you not think your energies would be better utilised in pushing for such facilities rather than trying to take the wheels off the three strikes legislation?
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August 15, 2011 10:11am
Viking2

mikenmild (1,843) Says:
August 15th, 2011 at 9:57 am

Just did a quick calculation here and note that over the past ten years we have increased our spending on education by about 30% and our spending on corrections by about 90%.

and funningly enough none of the extra cash has fixed the youth problem.
So what does that tell any of you Key beleivers?
eh
You are as thick as the proponetnts of this poilicy and worse you don’t seem to realise that its just about giving more money to social workers and teachers.

Grrrr and that’s not because its cold.
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August 15, 2011 10:12am
mikenmild

nasska

When we get some people accumulating their third strike, it will be interesting to see if any of them have indeed ‘scorned attempts at rehabilitation’, or whether they just spent time in prison, which is the experience of the majority of prisoners.
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August 15, 2011 10:14am
mikenmild

V2

I don’t believe extra cash will necessarily fix problems, all I wanted to point out was that spending vastly more on prisons relative to schools is extremely unlikely to be helpful.
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August 15, 2011 10:16am
Scott Chris

jcuk (30) Says:
August 15th, 2011 at 9:54 am

“Astrology is a worthy science and been around a lot longer than those other things.”

Scrying above sentence for traces of irony…….. It’s clean! May contain traces of nuts.
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August 15, 2011 10:18am
Lee01

“all I wanted to point out was that spending vastly more on prisons relative to schools is extremely unlikely to be helpful.”

I disagree. The so-called “education” system in NZ is a rotting corpse that is no use whatsoever in producing hard working and law abiding citizens. Spending more on that corpse is a waste of money.

And please don’t trot out that crap about our education system being one of the best in the world. Those figures are obtained only by comparing state run systems. Comparing one rotting corpse to another and saying that ours stinks slightly less is not an endorsement.

Fully independent private schools and home schooling is the only solution.

It should also be pointed out that violent crime, as well as crime in general in the USA has been declining for more than ten years now, and is now at an historic low. Policies like “broken windows” and tougher sentencing laws, including three strikes, have worked.
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August 15, 2011 10:35am
mikenmild

Lee

And I disagree with you. Whether the public funds education or not, in comparison with prisons, the proportion spent on education is declining. Good thing, or bad thing, do you think?
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August 15, 2011 10:43am
Lee01

“in comparison with prisons, the proportion spent on education is declining. Good thing, or bad thing, do you think?”

I think its an irrelevant comparison. One has nothing to do with the other.
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August 15, 2011 10:47am
nasska

mikenmild

Given that three strikers are not sentenced for parking offences it would require a fair stretch of the imagination to think that no effort had been made to rehabilitate them. I have conceded that some are mentally impaired…it would be at least honest if some of you progressives similarly conceded that most of the remainder are simply bad.

If they are simply bad then a functioning society needs these losers to be removed from our midst.
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August 15, 2011 10:49am
Elaycee

The Chinese approach to crime and punishment doesn’t seem to foster a lot of repeat offending…..

Same with Singapore……

So it CAN be done!
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August 15, 2011 10:54am
Lee01

A good approach to crime should be a mixed one. There is a place for rehabilitation, a place for restorative justice, and a place for tougher sentencing and three strikes.

People at the lower end of the crime spectrum, for example non-violent crimes and first time offenders, should be given a second chance and this is where I think restorative justice, rehabilitation, boot camps and group counselling are good ideas.

But at the other end, repeat violent offenders, the state should take a hard line, hence the need for three strikes. I have lost track of the number of times there has been a rape or a murder and it turns out the offender had previously commited and been convicted for the same crimes, sometimes into double figures. That is not justice.
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August 15, 2011 10:59am
mikenmild

Lee may think that the relative spending on prisons versus schools is irrelevant, but in a world of limited resources dollars spent on one thing inevitably require trade-offs elsewhere. Now that we are spending over $1 billion on corrections, it might be worthwhile to wonder whether that cash could have been more productively invested elsewhere.
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August 15, 2011 11:02am
Scott Chris

tom hunter – I like the LOTR analogy. Hilarious. I’d have thought Sauron would have been cast as John Maynard Keynes, successor to a Morgothic Carl Marx. That would make Milton Friedman Gandalf, Ron Paul could be Bilbo and Sarah Palin a rather sexy but gender confused Frodo.

Stealing the show would be Rupert Murdoch as Gollum.
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August 15, 2011 11:02am
nasska

Lee01

Most of us agree that in most cases a mix & a range of sentences should be made available to the judiciary. There’s still resistance from the socialists who want hard core criminals to be able to con judges into giving endless soft sentences to allow for a rehabilitation which never seems to occur…hence the hand wringing over “three strikes”.

Personally I think that the mood of the electorate has swung in the direction of keeping the predators separate from the flock & not before time.
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August 15, 2011 11:11am
Lee01

“Now that we are spending over $1 billion on corrections, it might be worthwhile to wonder whether that cash could have been more productively invested elsewhere.”

Such as? And how would that alternative spending produce less crime?

I think the flaw in your argument is assuming that crime is simply a spending problem in the first place. The root of the problem is the state sponsered social liberalism, victimhood ideology, multicultualism and “human rights” crap that has destroyed the moral basis for a healthy society.

If you want less crime, then restore traditional morality and the traditional family as the foundation of society instead of “human rights” nonsense, reform the welfare system so that it does not produce fatherless families and does not create inter-generational welfare dependency, stop treating minority ethnic groups as “victims”, hand education back to parents, and re-introduce compulsory military service.
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August 15, 2011 11:14am
KevinH

Where would you send the trains to Lee01?.
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August 15, 2011 11:26am
mikenmild

Lee left out corporal and capital punishment and tranportation to Botany Bay…
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August 15, 2011 11:27am
starboard

“$1 billion on corrections, it might be worthwhile to wonder whether that cash could have been more productively invested elsewhere.”

like a guillotine?..or a gas chamber?..or a set of gallows?…
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August 15, 2011 11:30am
mikenmild

Or free contraception for starboard and all his relatives.
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August 15, 2011 11:34am
starboard

good one milky..not..
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August 15, 2011 11:37am
Griff

The only “right” a human has is the right to be a human
If you do not be human you have no right
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August 15, 2011 11:40am
Lee01

“Lee left out corporal and capital punishment”

I have no problem with either of those.

I note that you yourself have not said what your policy approach would be. Its easy to take swipes at others when you are not prepared to take a stand and say what you think the root causes and solutions are. Man up and tell us, in more than one sentence, what you believe.

My approach at least has been tried and proven. Just look at crime rates in the 1950’s compared to now.
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August 15, 2011 12:03pm
immigant

“Now that we are spending over $1 billion on corrections, it might be worthwhile to wonder whether that cash could have been more productively invested elsewhere.”

I vote for spending some money on establishijng a ‘Hard Labour’ style prison as a trial.
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August 15, 2011 12:08pm
joana

Nasska
You are not quite understanding me..The point I keep coming back to re three strikes , is about the COST of the three strikes law..Noone ever seems to want to address this. The prison pop in the US , exploded with the war on drugs and the three strikes law. The costs involved with imprisonment are enormous..sorry I have forgotten the stats in the US re prison pop before these laws and current prison pop but the difference is staggering. Someonelse may know these figures..When a country is spending enormous amounts on imprisonment , there is much less money for more positive social services like schools etc. How much is NZ currently spending on courts , prison , justice etc..? I have no idea but I imagine it is increasing each year.
I agree that society needs to be protected from some people. I was involved in prisons about thirty years ago and ironically for me , the worst person I met was not yr male rapist or male murderer but an attractive young female murderess.I visited her once in CHH women’s and left thinking..”This young woman should never be let out.”
I don’t think there are any easy answers to any of this , but being human we seem to seek easy answers. I feel that NZ followed the US and probably Britain in closing the big psych hospitals..this has meant freer , better lives for some people but also the travesty of treating ill people as criminals..this is hidden from view obviously but most prison officers will talk about all the suicide attempts etc.
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August 15, 2011 12:26pm
Lee01

” is about the COST of the three strikes law..Noone ever seems to want to address this.”

I will address it.

So what?

If the government can make savings elsewhere, through welfare reform, and through lower crime rates and repeat violent offenders being off the streets (crime costs), then so be it.

Some things are worth spending money on.
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August 15, 2011 12:29pm
Elaycee

“Some things are worth spending money on.”

Exactly. Such as ‘no frills’ prisons where criminals are kept off our streets and away from our kids.

Prisons should be a place of punishment rather than a place for the bleeding hearts to cuddle criminals whilst they try to tell us that the reason the criminals are there in the first place is because of colonial oppression / the poor darlings had a bad childhood / they experienced disadvantaged upbringing / etc….

Its about time that these same bleeding hearts realised that prisons are there to both punish criminals and to remove them (temporarily) from society. Not to give them a taxpayer funded education in a place where they are treated like a hotel guest.
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August 15, 2011 12:42pm
Ryan Sproull

Prisons should be a place of punishment rather than a place for the bleeding hearts to cuddle criminals whilst they try to tell us that the reason the criminals are there in the first place is because of colonial oppression / the poor darlings had a bad childhood / they experienced disadvantaged upbringing / etc…

A common attitude, but we know that this is demonstratively a recipe for recidivism, and we know that bad childhoods demonstratively cause people to become criminals. Not without exception, but there’s some truth in Lee’s points about family life being related to crime rates.
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August 15, 2011 12:47pm
mikenmild

Ryan

But you’re not expecting those attitudes to change as a result of exposure to evidence are you?
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August 15, 2011 1:03pm
starboard

“A common attitude, but we know that this is demonstratively a recipe for recidivism”

Make it a nasty place then where there is no way in hell you want to go back…hard labour , grow all your food , no tv’s , 2 to a cell etc..watch the recidivism disappear. As stated previously prison needs to be a place of punishment..hard punishment for your crimes against society. None of this namby pampy liberal wet bus ticket shit that we currently have…and before you start blowing off outa your arse milkymike and rex…I have 2 friends who are prison officers.
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August 15, 2011 1:20pm
Ryan Sproull

Make it a nasty place then where there is no way in hell you want to go back…hard labour , grow all your food , no tv’s , 2 to a cell etc..watch the recidivism disappear. As stated previously prison needs to be a place of punishment..hard punishment for your crimes against society. None of this namby pampy liberal wet bus ticket shit that we currently have…and before you start blowing off outa your arse milkymike and rex…I have 2 friends who are prison officers.

Again, that method doesn’t work. Certainly ex-cons don’t want to go back, but it’s also a spectacularly ineffective way of changing the mindsets and behaviours that put them there in the first place. No recidivists are saying, “I re-offended because I wanted to go back and watch TV in prison.” They don’t want to go back, even when it’s not a place of 24/7 torment.
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August 15, 2011 1:24pm
Elaycee

Ryan says: “A common attitude, but we know that this is demonstratively a recipe for recidivism, and we know that bad childhoods demonstratively cause people to become criminals”…

Parental issues (the lack thereof) will not be fixed overnight but is attitude driven anyway and not one solved by throwing more and more case at the root cause(s). For the past decade, we tried the bleeding heart approach and it didn’t work!

Cuddling criminals hasn’t led to any reduction in crime either – quite the opposite. Some career criminals even have the temerity to suggest that they preferred it ‘inside’ because of the creature comforts!

Surely what is needed is a ‘back to basics’ approach based on a ‘no frills’ approach where youths are sent to boot camps (they used to be sent to borstals) and criminals are sent to prison. Remember, prison should be for punishment and not just an opportunity for criminals to enjoy a taxpayer funded, extended education.
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August 15, 2011 1:27pm
mikenmild

starboard

That might make us feel better. I reckon most of the scum that go to jail couldn’t care less if it was ‘soft’ or not. Prisons generally haven’t been shown to have a deterrent effect, no matter what regime operates. Prison should really be reserved primarily for those that are too bad or too dangerous to be at large. Reducing the numbers sent to prison would provide the opportunity to rehabilitate those that were worthwhile investments – in terms of the kind of programmes that have been shown to provide positive results.

PS – the ‘ boot camps’ also seem to be singularly ineffective. Another sop to the ‘get tough’ mob.
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August 15, 2011 1:28pm
starboard

“Again, that method doesn’t work.”

..but its never been tried here in NZ that I can remember so lets try it .
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August 15, 2011 1:29pm
Ryan Sproull

Surely what is needed is a ‘back to basics’ approach based on a ‘no frills’ approach where youths are sent to boot camps (they used to be sent to borstals) and criminals are sent to prison. Remember, prison should be for punishment and not just an opportunity for criminals to enjoy a taxpayer funded, extended education.

If a taxpayer-funded extended education reduces recidivism, it’s a valuable investment by the taxpayer. The focus of prisons should be on rehabilitation, not on punishment as it is now. If rehabilitation requires a few creature comforts to be effective, so be it. If it doesn’t, fine. But the measure should be first the safety of the public, and secondly rehabilitation measured by recidivism rates.
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August 15, 2011 1:41pm
mikenmild

Ryan

That is exactly the approach followed in NZ over the last decade, except the ability to provide meaningful rehabilitation has been vastly overshadowed by the public hunger to lock up more people.
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August 15, 2011 1:46pm
David Garrett

My, what a lot of misinformation on one thread…

FACT: there has always been recidivism, even when it WAS bread and water and hard labour…the difference is the % of cons who were/are happy (or prepared) to reoffend and go back now as compared to 100 years ago.

FACT: Most criminals would rather not be locked up. The problems start when 3 years means 1 year (or perhaps 2) and no-one – least of all the con – knows how long he or she is really going to be there. And when life inside can be more comfortable that living in some draughty s…hole in South Auckland facing all the demands of life on a substistence income

FACT: There are cons who are happy (or prepared) to go back inside for any number of reasons, such as: 1) they get three squares a day without having to work for or cook them; 2)No-one is going to cut the power off if the lecky bill’s not paid; 3)there is no nagging missus(s) or a requirement to even pretend to have any involvement in bringing up the offspring; 4) they have lots of mates in there; 5) they can learn new (criminal) skills etc. etc. (but see previous paragraph)

FACT: We have been trying for at least as long as since we closed the big psych institutions to treat all our social problems with imprisonment. Criminally insane offenders belong in an institution for the criminally insane; offenders whose offending is primarly a result of drug and alcohol addiction should be in places where their additionns can be treated….but dont tell anyone I said that last bit, it’s no good for the stereotypers…
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August 15, 2011 1:49pm
Ryan Sproull

Once again, I find myself agreeing with much of what David Garrett is saying about crime. Especially fact 4.
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August 15, 2011 1:53pm
David Garrett

“..addictions”….but some smarmy leftie will point out that and any other typos
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August 15, 2011 1:56pm
Other_Andy

Yep, that would work…

Palmerston North coroner Carla na Nagara has lent her support to calls for the compulsory fitting of seatbelts on tractors after finding a farm hand may have survived if he had been wearing one on a Marlborough farm last year.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10745279

NOT!
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August 15, 2011 2:01pm
mikenmild

David

I too agree with most of what you say.
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August 15, 2011 2:05pm
David Garrett

Milky: have you ever wondered WHY there might be ” public hunger to lock up more people” ?

Are you even aware that in fifty years our homicide rate per 100,000 of population (which allows us to compare New York with New Plymouth) has tripled or gradrupled? And just for those (not necessarily including yourself) who dont understand “per 100,000 of population”, that measure makes population increases irrelevant. One still hears “we have more crime because we have more people” from some of the deliberately ignorant left…

Are you aware that the violent crime per 100,000 rate has increased to an even greater extent than homicide per 100,000? (At least in part because better medical care means you can now survive what would have killed you in the 1950’s)

Are you aware that our imprisonment rate per 100,000 is actually much LESS than it was 50 years ago?

If you are not aware of all of the above, perhaps you should read more widely….
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August 15, 2011 2:06pm
Lee01

“PS – the ‘ boot camps’ also seem to be singularly ineffective. Another sop to the ‘get tough’ mob.”

Not true. There is good evidence that they do work, but there are also many different models, with some working better than others. The government is right to say that the current version being used has not been running long enough to tell one way or another, and that different models need to be tried to find the right mix. Far from being a “sop” to anyone, it shows a willingness to try new approaches, rather than being bound to the mindless and morally bankrupt dictates of politcal correctness.

Stilll waiting for your own analysis and solutions. So far all you seem capable of is snarking at others.

“Make it a nasty place then where there is no way in hell you want to go back…hard labour , grow all your food , no tv’s , 2 to a cell etc..watch the recidivism disappear.”

Yes…and no.

While I do agree that prisons should not be comfortable and should be run along military lines, they must be places of BOTH punishment and reform, at least for those criminals who demonstrate a genuine willingness and desire to change. Education, skills training and counselling can still have a place in a hard-get tough approach.
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August 15, 2011 2:10pm
mikenmild

David

I am aware of those. In my view prison is primarily a place for serious violent offenders. Most thieves, fraudsters and drug dealers are more effectively dealth with in the community. Prison seems to have virtually no deterrent effect of going there), so the rationale should be security, safety and ability to provide effective rehabilitative options. Some people should be locked uplonger, some less and some not at all. There seems to be good evidence that short periods in prison actually increase thje likelihoddof further offending. Prison is at its best when it is keeping people out of the community who otherwise would be committing more crimes.
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August 15, 2011 2:18pm
Elaycee

“The focus of prisons should be on rehabilitation, not on punishment as it is now. If rehabilitation requires a few creature comforts to be effective, so be it. If it doesn’t, fine.”

Oh, bollocks. The purpose of a prison is to punish. Not to provide a hotel guest service. That’s the biggest problem with the bleeding hearts – they want to cuddle these convicts rather than have them realise that they were sent away as punishment. It shouldn’t be a holiday home with creature comforts to match.

If a criminal shows genuine remorse and they have demonstrated a willingness to change their ways, then (and only then) should the option of rehabilitation be offered. The bleeding hearts need to accept that a soft approach was tried for a decade and failed miserably.
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August 15, 2011 2:20pm
Scott Chris

Ryan Sproull (4,465) Says:
August 15th, 2011 at 1:53 pm

“Once again, I find myself agreeing with much of what David Garrett is saying about crime. Especially fact 4.”

Writing ‘Fact’ in front of something doesn’t make it so.

“Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.”

Albert Einstein
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August 15, 2011 2:20pm
Elaycee

Wow! Snowflakes in Broadway, Newmarket. They don’t stay on the ground long but snowflakes they are…..
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August 15, 2011 2:24pm
Lee01

““Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.” Albert Einstein.

Difficult to take seriously a man who clearly had trouble operating a comb.
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August 15, 2011 2:27pm
nasska

Elaycee

If you’d like a some snowflakes that do have a lasting quality then I have a few to spare.
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August 15, 2011 2:36pm
Ryan Sproull

Oh, bollocks. The purpose of a prison is to punish.

If that was the sole purpose of prisons, I would say they’re utterly pointless wastes of money. Punishment does not solve the problem. It just makes the people outside the prison feel good about it.

Not to provide a hotel guest service. That’s the biggest problem with the bleeding hearts – they want to cuddle these convicts rather than have them realise that they were sent away as punishment. It shouldn’t be a holiday home with creature comforts to match.

Again, I never said anything about cuddling. I said that the value of treatment should be measured by its efficacy in turning criminals into non-criminals.

If a criminal shows genuine remorse and they have demonstrated a willingness to change their ways, then (and only then) should the option of rehabilitation be offered. The bleeding hearts need to accept that a soft approach was tried for a decade and failed miserably.

A lack of remorse and a lack of desire to change their ways are both causes of recidivism, and they need to dealt with.

To my knowledge, an emphasis on rehabilitation without the emphasis on punishment has never been tried in New Zealand.
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August 15, 2011 2:38pm
Elaycee

@nasska – “If you’d like a some snowflakes that do have a lasting quality then I have a few to spare”…

Haha – nice offer, but no thanks.

But there were sufficient snowflakes on the windscreen to require the use of the wipers… in Auckland! The skies to the South don’t look too flash either – could be more to come. 🙂
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August 15, 2011 2:44pm
tom hunter

Elaycee

I just reported the same in another part of Auckland over on the “Antarctic Blast” thread.
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August 15, 2011 2:45pm

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