General Debate 12 August 2011

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krazykiwi

I kiwiblog therefore I am.
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August 12, 2011 8:04am
ciaron

Desperately seeking coffee………
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August 12, 2011 8:09am
Murray

If someone posts a comment and no one reads is it still profound?
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August 12, 2011 8:15am
Lance

Oh such philosophy so early in the morning.

Back to reality and what they really think of us in the media

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10744541
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August 12, 2011 8:18am
Murray

Welcome to Philisophical Phriday.
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August 12, 2011 8:18am
Scott Chris

26 Foot High Marilyn Monroe Wows Chicago

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-world/2011/07/19/gentlemen-prefer-big-blondes-26ft-high-mailyn-monroe-statue-wows-chicago-115875-23280654/

It’s the one with the billowing skirt. Well worth looking up.
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August 12, 2011 8:30am
hj

David Round on multiculturalism
http://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2011/08/david-round-tragic-lessons-from-norway.html
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August 12, 2011 8:30am
Murray

Scott this would have to be the most effort any stupid male has gone to in order to legitimise an upskit shot ever.
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August 12, 2011 8:34am
hj

from David Rounds opinion piece.
“The Progressive Party in fact is the second-largest part in Norwegian politics, enjoying something like 25% of the popular vote, as well as considerable public sympathy for its stance on Muslim immigration beyond that 25%. Breivik had been a member of this party, but had later left it because he considered it too inclined to compromise and moderation. Nevertheless, because of its ‘racial and religious prejudice’ ~ I quote Chris Trotter again ~ ‘essentially, the entire Norwegian political class, aided by the news media, came together to mount an effective political boycott of the Progressive Party’. Other political parties declared it persona non grata, and as a consequence ‘upwards of one quarter of the population found its political beliefs and aspirations deliberately excluded from government’ for the indefinite future.

So in Norway, then, a quarter of the population is more or less permanently denied any participation in government and legislation, because their objections to what is happening to their own society are considered by the other political parties and their supporters to be out of the question and beyond even the slightest consideration. In the name of tolerance of other points of view, of course.”
————
Down with Winston:
from the right because our economy depends on building subdivisions (despite putting up house prices and the need for infrastructure) and from the left because we are superior people and need to dilute our inferior brothers (who don’t like us anyway).
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August 12, 2011 8:37am
Scott Chris

Some philosophy:

“A ham sandwich is better than nothing.

Nothing is better than eternal happiness.

Therefore:

A ham sandwich is better than eternal happiness.”
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August 12, 2011 8:38am
Scott Chris

Murray – If she’s anatomically correct, I’m packing my bags already. Beats a plastic waka.
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August 12, 2011 8:41am
krazykiwi

Scott – Mumma Cass found that one led to another 🙂
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August 12, 2011 8:45am
Griff

She would be considered fat in today’s fashion driven society mostly because fashion is driven by gay men with fantasizes of pre pubescent boys
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August 12, 2011 8:48am
krazykiwi

Questions for Pete George –
1. the ‘Dunedin South candidacy currently under consideration’.. What is that candidate’s real name? Is this you? Are you considering yourself? How does that work?
2. I note the laudable objectives of more positive politics, no mudslinging or dirty tricks. Have you ever engaged in mudslinging or dirty tricks here at kb?

Thanks. You never know, I might be a potential voter.
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August 12, 2011 8:53am
Inventory2

So Macsyna King reckons Chris Kahui did it; sheesh; never would have seen that coming…

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2011/08/kahui-book-quelle-surprise.html
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August 12, 2011 8:59am
Griff

philosophy more Hienlein
“Democracy can’t work. Mathematicians, peasants, and animals, that’s all there is — so democracy, a theory based on the assumption that mathematicians and peasants are equal, can never work. Wisdom is not additive; its maximum is that of the wisest man in a given group”.
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August 12, 2011 9:00am
Nookin

Iv2
You took the words right out of my mouth. I was about to post exactly the same comment. And where is Wishart’s new evidence — you know, the answers to the questions that the police were too stupid to ask?
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August 12, 2011 9:11am
mikenmild

Griff

While Heinlein had interesting ideas, he also had the luxury of implementing them fictionally, so they didn’t need to meet real-world tests.
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August 12, 2011 9:13am
Pete George

Answers for krazykiwi –
1. I’m not considering myself for Dunedin South, I had already announced I will stand for Dunedin North. There’s quite a bit been happening behind the scenes and will be advised in due course.
2. Yes, laudable objectives, something I try to keep in mind but I don’t claim to be perfect in everyone’s view. It’s also very important to speak up and stand up to things that are important to you, that will no doubt be seen negatively by those being questioned.

I guess you are still dwelling on something that happened two years ago in my early days here, maybe you could move on from that. I accepted long ago that you just have strong fixed views on some things.
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August 12, 2011 9:14am
williamsheridan

Latest poll shows little change… National still well ahead.

http://www.roymorgan.com/
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August 12, 2011 9:14am
Murray

Griff:
“Everyone jumps, everyone fights.” Hienlein SST/

The US military is 84% logisitical support personel.

Reconcile.
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August 12, 2011 9:14am
joana

Hj..great article by David Round.
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August 12, 2011 9:15am
mikenmild

Pete

Keep at it. You are trying something different.
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August 12, 2011 9:19am
Griff

@ Murray
In the early CIA world book they rated New Zealand armed forces as most of the adult population for that reason
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August 12, 2011 9:19am
krazykiwi

Pete – Ah we’re getting somewhere. So have you ever engaged in ‘mudslinging’ here at kb? Not thinking years ago either. Much more recently. Perhaps my ‘moving on’ requires the dignity of an apology.
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August 12, 2011 9:22am
mikenmild

kk

You’re not going to apologise for mudslinging are you?
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August 12, 2011 9:24am
tom hunter

26 Foot High Marilyn Monroe ~~Wows~~ rolls eyes in Chicago

It’s rather hard to miss as you stroll down Michigan Avenue as it’s plonked right in Pioneer Square beside the Chicago river front, and the beautiful old Tribune Tower.

Tourists love it, and yes, a significant number are photographing themselves under her skirts looking up – in various poses!

As far as Chicagoans themselves are concerned – well let’s just say that a statue of a Hollywood star in a classic scene from a movie set in NY makes as much sense as setting up a statue of Kevin Costner’s classic poster pose from The Untouchables – in Times Square.
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August 12, 2011 9:27am
Scott Chris

Griff

Democracy is inefficient because the wise choice is seldom popular. But, to paraphrase Chuchill, democracy is the best of a bad bunch.
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August 12, 2011 9:31am
Pete George

So have you ever engaged in ‘mudslinging’ here at kb?

I’m sure some will have seen some of my comments like that. Have you ever sinned?

I could double my time and double my posts here (and Viking wouldn’t approve of that) if I wanted to try ensure no one was ever offended by anything I posted. And checking to make sure no one was left aggrieved at anything I posted. This could be changed to a super sensitive super PC blog, but it would probably be super empty.

How many more posts of beating around the bush?
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August 12, 2011 9:35am
Scott Chris

tom hunter

I see your point, however, I think as a sculptural form, this dramatic image of Marilyn works brilliantly, and commemorates America’s standing as the great pioneer of 20th century entertainment. Perhaps Hollywood missed this boat.

After all, she was an American Gal.
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August 12, 2011 9:41am
tom hunter

True – but it’s only there until next Spring, as were the psychedelic cow statues a few years . Oh well.

In the meantime I see the city’s favourite son turns out to have lied through his teeth about something:

The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) announced on Tuesday that it has awarded $28.8 million to 67 community health centers with funds from the Obamacare health reform law. Of that $28.8 million, “approximately $8.5 million will be used by 25 New Access Point awardees to target services to migrant and seasonal farm workers,” Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA) Spokeswoman Judy Andrews told CNSNews.com. HRSA is a part of HHS.

Andrews said that grant recipients will not check the immigration status of people seeking services.

“Health centers do not, as a matter of routine practice, ask about or collect data on citizenship or other matters not related to the treatment needs of the patients seeking health services at the center,” Andrews said.

Further, the grant recipients are required to serve “all residents“ who walk through their doors.

Which is a direct contradiction of what Obama said in a speech before Congress during the healthcare debate:

There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false. The reforms — the reforms I’m proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.

It was straight after this comment that a GOP representative, Joe Wilson, loudly called out You Lie!, to a storm of catcalls and boos, not to mention the usual outrage at how uncivil this was. I agree, you should not do that in Congress during a President’s speech.

But Joe was right. Obama did lie, with malice aforethought.

Must have been a day ending in “y”.
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August 12, 2011 9:51am
yesjg

Do the recent events in Norway and England indicate the high water mark of ‘progressive socialism’?
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August 12, 2011 9:52am
Pete George

Do the recent events in Norway and England indicate the high water mark of ‘progressive socialism’?

I’ve seen it claimed that it’s the result of thirty years of neo-liberalism. Is the world suffering from ismitis?
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August 12, 2011 9:55am
hj

For the record:

The Greens blame the rioting on deprivation
http://blog.greens.org.nz/2011/08/11/living-in-real-gangster-times
.
The strongest evidence they present is a map showing the rioting on a map showing the most *deprived* areas.

I was listening to Prof Gus John on Nine to Noon yesterday and the argument won me over a bit in so far as our business culture is one of excess.
I recall a comment about Jenny Shipley getting $1000/ day for overseeing CERA where some Kiwiblog moral neanderthall said “we charge out $1500/day for IT services, so are you saying ….isn’t enough?” Where i disagree with the red team in the wrong jerseys (however) is that the poor have their own form of excess in our society where life is an escalator you just jump on and it carries you.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/2495486/professor-gus-john.asx
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August 12, 2011 10:00am
Scott Chris

“But Joe was right. Obama did lie, with malice aforethought.”

I see oversight or mild deceit, but not malice.
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August 12, 2011 10:05am
hj

At present the Greens are quibbling about the wording of their population policy.
Funny that Meteria doesn’t think the DPB should be linked to taking contraception or that it should decrease after say the 2nd child …. or that it could have any unintended consequences. Also funny that the greens are worried about having a position that causes a stirr. They don’t mind (for instance) having a policy that vests the foreshore and seabed in the ownership or iwi and hapu or refering to non Maori Kiwi as “tauiwi” (= strangers in this land).
Is it that they don’t want to upset their own members?
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August 12, 2011 10:06am
krazykiwi

Pete – well so much for progress. I’ll come back to you on or about the 26th August with what I am expecting an apology for.
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August 12, 2011 10:07am
RF

Has anyone seen Goof since the witch flew into town ?

Noticed that King was looking stressed on TV last night when asking questions. At her age its going to be difficult to find employment as a Dental Nurse after November 26th.

The recent poll will put them behind the 8 ball even further.
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August 12, 2011 10:13am
Griff

All benefits should be at a maximize of 80% of the minimum wage why should any one be better off for not working
The greens got rid of slaphappy Sue because she was to radical. I would expect some moderation of their Maori stand point before the end of the next election cycle.

I’m just posting Heinlein for fun he does make sense however sense and politics are mostly mutually exclusive
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August 12, 2011 10:17am
tom hunter

The strongest evidence they present is a map showing the rioting on a map showing the most *deprived* areas.

The problem with these sorts of arguments is that they’re happening in 2011, not 1811, and in a country where government spending will occupy about 47.3% of GDP this year. Moreover, as this article explains:

Government spending has skyrocketed in the United Kingdom in recent years. And, as the chart shows, spending is even increasing by about twice as fast as inflation in the current fiscal year.

Maybe that’s austerity to the looters and moochers who think they have an unlimited claim on the production and income of other people, but it’s hard to see how a 4 percent increase can be characterized as “brutal” and “vicious” spending cuts.

The article also points out that the dreaded Tories have left in place Gordon Brown’s election-year, 10-percentage point increase in the top income tax rate and imposed an increase in the VAT rate and implemented a higher capital gains tax.

From the same source as the UK figures, NZ is listed at having 41.1% of GDP as government spending, which should give pause to those who blithely state that we have plenty of room for increased government spending by the lights of the rest of the OECD.

You don’t have defend the bailouts of bankers on Wall St or City bankers to realise that the problem is not the amount of money spent but how it is spent and what on, or that handing more money to the government will produce any more effective results in “deprived” areas.
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August 12, 2011 10:22am
hj

Do the recent events in Norway and England indicate the high water mark of ‘progressive socialism’?

I’ve seen it claimed that it’s the result of thirty years of neo-liberalism. Is the world suffering from ismitis?
…….
Who is that famous autistic professor of animal behaviour? She has it over the rest because she can’t ascribe motive and therefore remains objective.

her:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin

I think the riots are a pot where just about every shade of opinion can reach in and take something out.
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August 12, 2011 10:22am
RightNow

Griff, good work, you used a full stop between sentences. Admittedly only once, but it’s a start.

PS – just winding you up, happy Friday
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August 12, 2011 10:25am
mikenmild

Griff – Heinlein is very enjoyable, but please don’t start on whether the movie version of Starship Troopers was satisfactory!
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August 12, 2011 10:28am
Griff

If you go back to my early posts you will see how far I have come in a short space of time. Written communication and wisdom are not the same thing (not that I have much wisdom)
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August 12, 2011 10:30am
wf

@ RF – I was wondering too. The silence is deafening.
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August 12, 2011 10:31am
Pete George

Ah, that krazykiwi – you refused to discuss it for a month, so why did you bring it up again today?

Why you brought it up in the first place, saying you agreed with what Beck said and then refused to discuss it, is a puzzle too. I (like others) wasn’t mudslinging, I was calling you on your apparent major mudslinging at the young people in Norway.

I presume you will explain on the 26th, I’ll probably have forgotten about it again by then.
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August 12, 2011 10:34am
David Garrett

Well said David Round….great to see such an erudite man unashamedly promoting the virtues of “common sense”…
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August 12, 2011 10:34am
krazykiwi

Has anyone seen Goof since the witch flew into town ?

I saw him flying out from Wellington airport early yesterday morning. The look on his face would have made Minto look radiantly happy by comparison.
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August 12, 2011 10:46am
Other_Andy

Interesting article about the Canadian Oil Sands

Fans of the “all of the above” theory of American energy policy are well aware that we need to be exploring every possible avenue of resources to meet demand in the 21st century. When it comes to oil, most of us think of sweet crude, with gushers coming up out of the ground. Unfortunately, while we have some here in North America, a lot of it sits under countries which don’t exactly have America’s best interests at heart, and it’s not going to last forever. But there are vast deposits of other types in the world, including huge reserves of oil sands in Canada. Unfortunately, there were logistical barriers to accessing these resources in the early days of oil exploration, but modern technological innovations are unlocking the vast potential awaiting us there. And if we’re going to be exploring it, we might as well learn a bit more about it.

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/08/10/canadian-oil-sands-and-america-part-1/
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August 12, 2011 11:01am
AlphaKiwi

hj posted this link above, but I think it deserves to be reposted in case anyone missed it. Brilliant analysis.

http://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2011/08/david-round-tragic-lessons-from-norway.html
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August 12, 2011 11:03am
RightNow

Looking at the pictures of looters in the UK I’m astounded by how many of them are wearing Adidas attire.
I’m no longer convinced that ‘any publicity is good publicity’.
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August 12, 2011 11:06am
tom hunter

Other_Andy
I’ve just read part 2 but I think we should list the footnote at the end before some bugeyed leftie does it for us:

DISCLOSURE: Costs for travel and accommodations for this tour were provided by the American Petroleum Institute. No other financial remuneration was offered or accepted. The author was under no obligation to publish any content relating to the tour and neither API nor any of the companies mentioned in this series had any editorial control or input regarding published material beyond fact checking for accuracy.

Cue the Twilight Zone theme music. Of course the real kicker for that argument is the simple economics of oil demand from across the border (buying from Canada vs. the Middle East – easy call) and this factual from another article on the same subject:

It costs about $38 to make a barrel of synthetic crude. The costs for producing a barrel out of a new oil sands mine would be nearer to $70.

$70 from a new mine? With oil currently floating around $100 per barrel there’s no fighting that – unless the Canadian Green movement really think they can put tens of thousands out of work in the current global economy. More “Peak Oil” please.
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August 12, 2011 11:13am
RightNow

What mindset leads a government to encourage this?

I have escorted a 16-year-old, unemployed, criminal teenager by taxi from his home to the benefits office so he could sign on for the dole, even though he lived only ten minutes away by foot. He was from a large Albanian family of Romany gypsies who had come to Britain seeking asylum, but each had ended up involved in criminal activities, including violent muggings and burglary.
Despite his criminal conduct — because of it, in fact — the local youth offending team was desperate for him to claim as many benefits as possible, even laying on transport.
The bizarre logic, as it was put to me, was that poverty was the cause of his illegal actions (a trite and misguided argument trotted out this week by bleeding heart liberals in defence of the looters).
In the words of the youth worker: ‘We need to work with him to remove the underlying causes of his criminal behaviour’, by ensuring he received ‘all the benefits that are entitled to him, his partner and future baby.’ (He had got his Bulgarian girlfriend pregnant.)
My colleague’s worry was that, if this support, including the taxi service, were not provided, the Albanian would slide back into a life of crime; even though she knew, from his expensive clothes, that he earned so much from crime he didn’t even need those benefits.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024943/UK-RIOTS-David-Camerons-tough-sentences-Yobs-treated-THEYRE-victims.html#ixzz1Ulb6jlek

Idiocracy in action http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/
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August 12, 2011 11:50am
kowtow

Other Andy

The Canadian oil sands are a huge resource. I’m amazed at how little people in the west seem to know about it.
At the moment it’s relatively expensive to extract but the real enemy of tar sands are as always the environmentalists both Canadian and American who have labelled the tar sands as “dirty” and are discouraging the US from getting invoved!

So Canada says fine the US wont buy it ,the Chinese will and do. Do the Chinese care if it’s “clean”? Nope.

Even the oh so environmentally wonderful Norwegians are getting in on it. Their superannuation depends on oil so they’re buying into “dirty oil”.
If the west got behind this we could give the fingers to the Arabs and Venezuelans quite happily.
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August 12, 2011 11:54am
mikenmild

Oil sands are a significant part of the world’s remaining hydrocarbon resources. While they are currently expensive (in cost and environmental impact), they will play an important role in pushing the peak of oil production out a bit further. Ironically, kowtow, I think Venezuela has as much oil sands as Canada, or close to!
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August 12, 2011 12:02pm
tom hunter

If the west got behind this we could give the fingers to the Arabs and Venezuelans quite happily.

I’d suggest those articles and those cost figures tell us that the West is already behind this and getting more so every day.

There has been stuff written about Canadian oil sands for almost a decade, together with the usual denunciations from environmentalists about how it’s all a crock due to the cost per barrel and the enormous amounts of water and energy required to produce each barrel.

What we see here is that, in the background, the usual combination of scientists, engineers and capitalism, have been working away to resolve those issues. Did you see the part about the chemical chelation treatment being used to extract the superfine suspended clays from the water so the clay can be dumped back into the hole from whence it came? Not to mention the 90% recycling rate for the steam.

So it goes. Rather like the new frakking techniques used to extract natural gas in the US. Seemingly overnight the US has tripled it’s recoverable reserves of NG: it now has something like 150-200 years worth at current consumption rates.

We’ll have to wait and see what happens over the next few years but I’m thinking the Green movement is going to be in for a hell of shock when it finds out how much new fossil fuel energy is available to the West at cost-effective prices. All this is probably going to drive down the costs faster than environmental regulations and taxes can drive them up.
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August 12, 2011 12:14pm
kowtow

hj
Thanks for the David Round link. He is as always excellent. Google theodore dalrymple, also very good.

It’s not just 25 % of voters ignored in Norway. In the EU if the Brussels mafia don’t like a govt ,as in the case when a rightist anti immigrant govt got in in Austria, they give it the cold shoulder,making a very clear message to all political parties in the EUistan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Austria
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August 12, 2011 12:19pm
Scott Chris

The Olympic Logo Gets The English Touch:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=250930681594237&set=a.107963959224244.11373.107347365952570&type=1&theater
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August 12, 2011 12:31pm
Viking2

I heard on the News that British post loss again this year many mega millions and are now considering laying off 150000 staff.

Britain will have to start rexporting a lot of its latecomers if it is going to solve its money problems.
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August 12, 2011 12:33pm
Viking2

As a matter of interest where are all the lefty trolls today.
Oh I get it, the weather’s fine so they have gone kayaking and fishing whilst the rest of us pay taxes.
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August 12, 2011 12:34pm
mikenmild

Not me V2, working hard for the taxpayers.
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August 12, 2011 12:38pm
KevinH

David Round reads like an apologist for Anders Behring, his acts of atrocity were as a result of his personality disorder and really could not be attributed to the failings of a neo fascist political party that was rejected in the polls.
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August 12, 2011 12:39pm
mikenmild

Hear, hear Kevin. It read to me like ‘silly, tolerant and liberal Norwegians refused to back the ideas of a party opposedto those ideals, so got what was coming’.
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August 12, 2011 12:47pm
redeye

Oh I get it, the weather’s fine so they have gone kayaking and fishing whilst the rest of us pay taxes.

You pay taxes on your Kiwiblog contributions?
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August 12, 2011 12:56pm
Elaycee

Jesus wept…. Who left the door open? 🙁
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August 12, 2011 1:05pm
Pete George

Remember Cherie Kurarangi Sweeney? She talked to police about the death of a Ngaruawahia baby and was called a nark. She stood up to that abuse and has continued campaigning for kids and against abuse.

She is organising “This memorial for our children who have died at the hands of someone who was supposed to be caring for them is simple, it does not cost BUT it will have huge impact.”

“STOP the Deaths from Child Abuse! NOW!”

Good to see people who are prepared to step up and do something about problems. Cherie deserves a heap of praise and support.
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August 12, 2011 1:09pm
krazykiwi

KevinH – You claim Behring’s atrocity was solely the result of a personality disorder. If were a simple personality disorder we could just test the population and ‘save society’ by locking up the 1000s who are no doubt similarly afflicted.

I would have thought his ‘reasons’ were a complex cocktail of psychological, experiential and environmental factors. David Round attempted to offer some insights on that, and while you mightn’t like his conclusions, labeling him an apologist is a bit of a long bow.
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August 12, 2011 1:13pm
RRM

Reasons numbers 12 and 13 why I don’t want capital punishment in New Zealand:

(12) Judicial Corruption, and
(13) Sick f*cks in positions of power.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/5434635/Kids-for-cash-judge-gets-28-years-jail
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August 12, 2011 1:13pm
tom hunter

Another rube self-identifies in the US:

I was splashing around in Lake Michigan last week when the realization hit me like a wave — I was wrong about Barack Obama. I should have voted for Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primary three years ago.

What follows is a laundry list of failures, especially in terms of standing tough against the GOP. But as usual, left-wingers who did not just support but had orgasms over Obama, can’t deal with reality:

The Republicans controlled only the House. The Democrats had the White House, the Senate and, more importantly, the people. Poll after poll showed that a majority of Americans favored raising taxes on the wealthy.

But it was Obama who backed down.

Back in the 1970’s almost every left-wing party in the world seemed to go through several elections with their own polls telling them that people would accept higher taxes. These parties would utterly convince themselves of this, waltz into an election, and get their clocks cleaned. The aftermath consisted of figuring out what had gone wrong – which never included the proposed increase in taxes to feed an already failing model. It was not until the 1980’s that many left-wing parties finally figured this out.

But clearly we’re back to the future here with people like this guy. He never seems to acknowledge that Barry did not run on increasing taxes, but cutting taxes for 95% of Americans. And even if you accept that the proposal leaves room to pivot to taxing the rich it never occurs to this guy that Obama and the rest of the Democrats failed to do so in 2009 and 2010 when they had absolute control of everything. In fact, even during the lame duck session following the 2010 elections, when there were 50 Democrats sitting around with nothing left to lose, they still could not do it.

But why should I expect anything else of someone who then writes this:

Why has Obama not lived up to the promise? He is clearly intelligent. For some reason, though, he was not ready for the rough and tumble of national politics

Good grief: Why,…. For some reason….. Perhaps he should read last week’s article in the NYT by that psychologist; it at least tried out some ideas that would explain why Obambi was not ready.

But then this character is still willing to wear his rubeness on his sleeve with comments like He is clearly intelligent. Ah, No. Or more precisely, he’s nowhere near as intelligent as his smooth speaking would make one think. Considering how many good salesman will tell you that sounding like you know what you’re talking about is the secret to having people think you’re smart, and considering the low regard Leftists in general have for those tools of capitalism, you would think they’d have cottoned onto Barry long before now. But it seems to be a leftist pattern: if their advocate speaks well he must be smart.
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August 12, 2011 1:13pm
kowtow

V2
You seem to have magical powers.
Conjured up 2 trolls ,just like that.One of them is even “working” for us.

and for public servants who claim to be working for us out there………

Turning up to a place of employment does not necessarily mean one is “working hard”.
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August 12, 2011 1:15pm
yesjg

I worked on the Syncrude project in Alberta some 30 years ago. It is the biggest tar sands project in Canada and they stated at the time that they could extract oil for USD31 a barrel but they expected that cost to reduce once in full production. I think that they now extract for somewhere around USD20/25 a barrel although for new projects the cost would probably be somewhat higher than that, but not greatly so.

And they have a lot of it, somewhere in the region of 1.7 trillion barrels. If the 20% that is within 200 feet of the surface can be extracted that’s 340 billion barrels which is about 11 years total world oil consumption. As a matter of interest Venezuela has tar sands reserves of about 235 billion barrels and Russia and the rest of the world another 130 billion barrels. Which would if you applied the same extraction formula supply the worlds oil demands for another couple of years.
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August 12, 2011 1:33pm
redeye

I agree with Tom that Obama has been a disappointment. If only the right had of put forward a sane candidate.
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August 12, 2011 1:35pm
Griff

Oil sand is similar to our low grade coal.. If the green have their way they will lock us out of it for ever..We will end up using these dirty energy options in time..New Zealand must be careful that the Luddites do not mount insurmountable barriers to their future use.. From a resident bug eyed blue greeny
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August 12, 2011 1:57pm
Nookin

RRM

“Reasons numbers 12 and 13 why I don’t want capital punishment in New Zealand:

(12) Judicial Corruption, and ………”

Pennsylvania is now in New Zealand?
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August 12, 2011 1:59pm
tom hunter

If only the right had of put forward a sane candidate.

Yawn. Is that really all you’ve got? I spent most of 2008 covering my eyes and chuckling at John’s woebegone election campaign and could hardly blame any of my friends voting for Obama.

But that’s something different from the pathetic idol worship the left ladled out on Obama, both in the US and around the world, leaving only a few, outlying, grumpy old far-lefters together with most of the right-wing, to complain about the lack of substance to the man. It’s the mindless worship more than the votes that gets to me, especially since I’d seen exactly the same shit in 1997 with Tony Blair, who frankly is a very intelligent guy, as is Bill Clinton.

The “sane” crack is just snark rather than any meaningful critique of McCain, of which there is plenty to mine.

It’s also funny to contemplate that a President McCain, faced with solid Democrat majorities in the House and Senate, and led by yee old ideologues like Harry and Nancy, might actually have yielded much of what the left got anyway, but with the added bonus of bi-partisan cover via the RINO’s and McCain’s long history of gleefully stabbing his own party in the back.

In any case, all this wailing and gnashing of teeth about Obama’s failures is just so much deflection from the failures of leftism. I think this article got to the heart of it:

But the notion that Obama is not a progressive or has not been “fighting for progressive principles”–a very different activity from negotiating, we should note–is bunk. If you doubt it, reread this Peggy Noonan column from February 2010:

The president had a stunning and revealing exchange with Sen. Blanche Lincoln, the Arkansas Democrat likely to lose her 2010 re-election campaign. He was meeting with Senate Democrats to urge them to continue with his legislative agenda. Mrs. Lincoln took the opportunity to beseech him to change it. She urged him to distance his administration from “people who want extremes,” and to find “common ground” with Republicans in producing legislation that would give those in business the “certainty” they need to create jobs.

While answering, Mr. Obama raised his voice slightly and quickened his cadence. “If the price of certainty is essentially for us to adopt the exact same proposals that were in place leading up to the biggest economic crisis since the Great Depression . . . the result is going to be the same. I don’t know why we would expect a different outcome pursuing the exact same policy that got us in this fix in the first place.” He continued: “If our response ends up being, you know . . . we don’t want to stir things up here,” then “I don’t know why people would say, ‘Boy, we really want to make sure those Democrats are in Washington fighting for us.’ ”

In short, Obama is a fighter for the progressive cause. Progressives are upset with him because he is a loser.
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August 12, 2011 2:01pm
mikenmild

Looking forward to a sane Republican candidate in 2012?
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August 12, 2011 2:07pm
tom hunter

I’m looking forward to deep, meaningful and insightful comments from mikenmild in 2012.

Perhaps even ones lasting more than one sentence!
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August 12, 2011 2:12pm
Other_Andy

Australia-New Zealand has the fifth largest reserves of fossil fuel in the world with (approximately) 314.6 Billions of Barrels of Oil Equivalent.
This includes oil, gas, coal and coal deposits like lignite and shale.
Australia-New Zealand’s fossil fuel reserves are greater than Saudi Arabia.
http://blackjackoak.wordpress.com/2011/04/07/which-country-has-the-most-fossil-fuel/

Through a process called GTL, Gas to Liquid, natural gas can be converted into synthetic fuels (Petrol and diesel)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_to_liquids
This is not a new process but has recently been improved to make it viable.
Shell, have technology proven to work on a commercial scale.
http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/06/04/arabian-alchemy-shell-makes-black-gold-in-qatar/?singlepage=true
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/615ade02-8f92-11e0-954d-00144feab49a.html?ftcamp=rss#axzz1ORLidL6o
Sasol in South Africa uses the same principle (CTL – Coal to Liquids) to refine fuel oils from coal.
http://www.globalenergymagazine.com/2010/09/sasol-conducts-world%E2%80%99s-first-coal-to-liquids-flight/

New Zealand could be energy independent if the Gaia worshippers (Greenies) would allow it.

Saudi Arabia understands this, admitting that with oil at $100/barrel countries will find an alternative.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/05/29/us.saudi.prince.oil/
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August 12, 2011 2:17pm
krazykiwi

The UK police have had it tough.. managing a consistent response to the chaos. Now it’s the court’s turn in the spotlight. While it’s fine for Cameron to say “If you’re old enough to commit the crime, you are old enough to face the punishment”, there are kids walking away comparatively unpunished for their looting and vandalizing, while this chap gets 6 months for opportunistically stealing $7 of water.
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August 12, 2011 2:27pm
redeye

Yawn. Is that really all you’ve got? I spent most of 2008 covering my eyes and chuckling at John’s woebegone election campaign and could hardly blame any of my friends voting for Obama.

Sounds like you agree?

Dementia is knocking on McCains door and Palin can’t remember the lies she told this morning. I think ‘sane’ is an apt description.

There is no point trying to get me to defend the left. As I’ve mentioned previously I’m one of the small minority that determines which side gets to sit in the big seat.
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August 12, 2011 2:30pm
Other_Andy

@redeye

“…Palin can’t remember the lies she told this morning.”

Realy?
Can you fill me in?
So far it seems that the lefties – Democrats and the LSM have a problem with the truth.
But go ahead, instead of blowing hot air, list the lies.
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August 12, 2011 2:39pm
redeye

Google is a wonderful thing Other_Andy. If you can manage to post here then you should have no trouble finding many many examples. You could start with http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2009/11/the-odd-lies-of-sarah-palin-a-summary-before-the-next-round/194027/
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August 12, 2011 2:44pm
tom hunter

Other_Andy

Wasting your time here. The debate was about the uselessness of Obama, the growing realisation of this among his own supporters, and the general panty throwing that happens with left-wingers and the objects of their political affections.

Instead you allowed ole Browneye to lead you into the world of Mystery Births With Andrew Sullivan. Actually rather appropriate for a commentator whose main focus to date has been fluoridated water (and it’s undoubted effects on his “essence”).
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August 12, 2011 2:51pm
redeye

Stick and stones Tom…

You might recall, it was only a couple of posts up the page, that I agreed Obama was a disappointment.

I simply pointed out that unfortunately, and in case you aren’t aware, Americans only had a choice of 2.

Being one of the hard right you should be happy Obama won. Otherwise you would be spending all of your recreational time defending the right instead of whining about the left. You seem happiest whining.
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August 12, 2011 2:58pm
mikenmild

redeye

Whoever would have thought that Palin lies? Not necessary to read the lst, I’m sure they’re all just mispokements.
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August 12, 2011 3:01pm
tom hunter

Being one of the hard right you should be happy Obama won.

Happy that the US economy is burning down (and possibly society with it?)? That might make me an anarchist, so no.

And if you care to trundle back a few days to the Tea Party threads you’ll find me putting in plenty of defense of that part of the right.

The GOP? Not so much.
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August 12, 2011 3:07pm
Griff

Last poke from Hienlein
“Political tags — such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth — are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort.”
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August 12, 2011 3:11pm
redeye

Happy that the US economy is burning down (and possibly society with it?)? That might make me an anarchist, so no.

You’re presuming of course that the economy wouldn’t be burning if McCain/Palin were in charge.
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August 12, 2011 3:23pm
krazykiwi

redeye – you meant to say “I’m presuming that you’re presuming of course that …”
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August 12, 2011 3:32pm
tom hunter

You’re presuming of course that the economy wouldn’t be burning if McCain/Palin were in charge.

If you are unaware of my past comments on this or the general air of disregard I’ve exhibited about McCain and the GOP, then it might be a reasonable presumption to make. But again – no. I think things have reached such a stage in the US that it will make little difference who is elected President in 2012. I do love the fact that there is this constant reference to “McCain/Palin”, whereas I rarely see “Obama/Biden” listed. Perhaps the ideal ticket would have been McCain/Biden or Biden/McCain.

I think Mark Steyn pointed out the problem:

Against that argument is the reassurance that that $75–100 trillion isn’t a “liability” in the sense that your car lease or mortgage is. John Hinderaker of the blog Powerline wrote:

“Entitlement commitments are not debts,… Congress can wipe them out simply by repealing Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid.”

That’s technically true in the same sense that it’s technically true Congress can wipe out a lot of our debts – or at any rate our debtors – by nuking Beijing.

But is either likely to happen under any scenario this side of total societal meltdown?

Indeed, I find it easier to imagine economic collapse, secession, civil war, Mad Max on I-95, cannibal gangs of the undocumented preying on gated communities of upscale gays, etc., than any combination of House, Senate, and president “repealing Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid.”
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August 12, 2011 3:34pm
redeye

Some would say it’s highly unlikely that the US economy would be any better off GOP lead.

So nope he must be presuming cause he couldn’t be certain.
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August 12, 2011 3:36pm
redeye

The obvious reason people refer to Palin continually is McCains age and health.

Perhaps considering how many of your right wing nuts want to shoot Obama then maybe Biden should be mentioned more.
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August 12, 2011 3:45pm
mikenmild

It’s pretty irrelevant whether the next President is Democrat or Republican, Obama or Romney/Perry/whoever. Both parties, and the governing system, are irretrievably wedded to their ingranied ways of doing business. As the Us gradually declines economically, how will they manage their way into the emerging multi-polar world? At this point, it seems like the business as usual from the last thirty years (spend, borrow, indulge vested interests, invade folks we don’t like, etc) will continue. It’s a pretty bleak prospect.
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August 12, 2011 3:46pm
Other_Andy

@Redeye

Looked at that page..

First one…

“Palin lied when she said the dismissal of her public safety commissioner, Walt Monegan, had nothing to do with his refusal to fire state trooper Mike Wooten; in fact, the Branchflower Report concluded that she repeatedly abused her power when dealing with both men.”

The Alaska Legislative Council unanimously voted to release, without endorsing, the Branchflower investigative report which found that Sarah Palin “abused her power as governor in attempting to get Trooper Wooten fired.”
On November 3, 2008, the Alaska State Personnel Board released the findings of its own probe which concluded that Palin did not violate any ethics laws.

Looked at serveral other ones. They have missing links, most have no first hand data or double back.
I haven’t got the time to check all statements, links and accusations.
Knowing the Prolefeed that is out there, I guess a great deal of them are half truths but that doesn’t mean she might have told porkies.

So….
Palin perfect?
By no means, but better than the one who occupies the White House at the moment.
At least she knows that the US has 50 states.
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August 12, 2011 3:47pm
KH

It don’t matter if you are right wing or left wing. Processing all that lignite will create a mess.
Electric cars? Don’t seem they are going to be much use.
The hydrogen powered internal combustion engine has capability. Good powerful vehicles – with range.
Using hydrogen as the energy storage/transfer system. Source of Hydrogen? Solar electricity.
Using that approach allows a distributed production and storage system.
ie. The petrol companies can get into it. You could also have a unit mounted on your garage roof.
Hydrogen safety. Well we just need to get organised about it like we did with petrol.
No technology breakthrough required. Just development of the existing.
Opinions please. Palin and Obama can be left out of the argument.
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August 12, 2011 3:52pm
krazykiwi

Remember the Polar Bears:

A number of years ago, Charles Monnett, flying over the Arctic to do some sort of whale study, saw 3-4 polar bears floating dead in the water. Without either a) retrieving the bear carcasses or b) even getting a picture of them, he wrote up a paper that discussed the siting and hypothesized the bears drowned in a storm and further that more bears would likely drown in the future if global warming melts more Arctic ice in the summer. The findings were the basis for a lot of worry about polar bears, and played a key role in Al Gore’s movie. Panic over the dead bears and Monnett’s wild hypotheses about them helped fuel calls for declaring the bears endangered, despite all evidence that their populations have actually been increasing over the last few years. Monnett did quite well from the work, parlaying his fame into management of a $50 million study budget, the dream of all academics.

Now it seems the Feds are interested in chatting with Monnett about this $50m, but Coyote Blog isn’t joining with those suggesting it made be down the fraud:

Seriously, you see four floating bear bodies from 1500 feet, once. You don’t have any facts about how they died. You only have one data point in time. Where is there room for fraud? It’s one freaking useless data point.

What IS interesting is this:

They only mystery is how this unbelievably trivial piece of work was published. Well, now we have a better idea. The reviewers for the article were Lisa Rotterman and Andrew Derocher. Incredibly, it turns out Ms. Rotterman is his wife – yes, some people are more peers than others – and Derocher was awarded a large research contract by Monnett just before he reviewed the article. Wow.

So one peer reviewer was Monnett’s wife, and the other an associate he’d just handed a large research grant.

Squiffy? You betcha!
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August 12, 2011 3:52pm
tom hunter

Perhaps considering how many of your right wing nuts want to shoot Obama then maybe Biden should be mentioned more.

Gee, I’m just not picking up that “independent”, “niether right nor left” vibe.

But perhaps if we look back in time through Kiwiblog we’ll find moments where Redeye castigated left-wing nuts for imagining President Bush being shot, including a few who even got these ideas through to the stage of a book, play and movie, not to mention those who plaintively asked on live TV where all the Booth’s and Oswalds had gone now that they were so badly needed.

Or perhaps we can just ignore the Delegitimisation Game (and Andrew Sullivan).
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August 12, 2011 3:53pm
mikenmild

I hope this doesn’t degenerate into a Palin thread. Maybe there should be a special subclause of Godwin’s Law.
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August 12, 2011 4:02pm
Owen McShane

I don’t trust the Hauraki Gulf research any more than I trust the Polar Bear research and the ARC research that gave us 5,000 contaminated sites in Auckland City.
See: http://rmastudies.org.nz/documents/FContFinal.pdf

When the ARC quietly called in the consultant I recommended the number was reduced from 5,000 to six. Not six thousand or six hundred but six.

Such projects should all be blind funded.
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August 12, 2011 4:03pm
tom hunter

KH

I’ve always been more into the Hydrogen Fuel Cell approach myself. Given the energy input required to produce hydrogen I don’t think the solar-cell-on-the-roof will cut the mustard, and even if it does the energy inefficiency of an IC engine vs. a fuel cell would add to the comparative cost challenge.

But perhaps you have some links?

Other_Andy
What did I tell you. Google is fine but you actually have to read the links: something Redeye clearly did not do before casting that gem before us. I mean really – Andrew Sullivan!
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August 12, 2011 4:04pm

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