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July 5, 2011 12:01am by David Farrar

General Debate 5 July 2011

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General Debate

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Elaycee

@Tauhei Notts says: “I get the impression that the several wonderful women I have met who are involved with the Maori Women’s Welfare League would have much more time for Mrs Tamaki than they would for Louise Wall’s tongue in groove partner.
The influence of those Labour Party females is insidious.”

Agree 100%. Well said, Sir. 😉
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July 5, 2011 2:46pm
kowtow

Resistance to Islam is not based on a fear of foreigners it is based on the fact that Islam is a dangerous and rapacious belief that goes beyond religion and into the political.

Europe, for a thousand years knew this. But modern,secular and “multicultural” Europe has forgotten it’s own history and that of Asia Minor,now called Turkey after the people of central Asia that conquered and populated that land.

Egypt was Christian till it was conquered by the Arabs and there is still a significant Christian,oppressed minority in that “Muslim” country.

The apologists here should go away and look up Poitiers 732, Constantinople 1453 and Vienna 1683. They might learn a thing or two.
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July 5, 2011 2:48pm
Manolo

Islam is a vile religion, but for those naive enough to believe in its benevolence I suggest reading these two books by Mark Steyn: America Alone: The End of the World as We Know It (2006) and Lights Out: Islam, Free Speech And The Twilight Of The West (2009)
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July 5, 2011 3:20pm
grumpyoldhori

Tauhei Notts those wonderful women, destiny members are they ?
The Maori women’s welfare league would not like it too much if they were forced to buy a $750 ? ring each.
Destiny, where dumb horis feel at home.
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July 5, 2011 3:25pm
grumpyoldhori

Good to see we have some brave white Mo/fo who are going to do some thing about Muslims in NZ.
Hey, there is only a thousand Muslim horis so it should be easy.
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July 5, 2011 3:34pm
joana

Islam is not a religion..it is a mind bending cult. When Christians can wear crosses and build churches in Saudi and women can drive..maybe then the Saudis could have something to say in NZ; in the mean time they should be completely ignored.
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July 5, 2011 3:36pm
Banana Llama

How can you be Phobic of Islam a Religion?

Maybe people who diagnose others with this are just observing common sense for the first time.
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July 5, 2011 3:38pm
southtop

Adding to Manolo, a short video for those who don’t, can’t OR in some cases not allowed to learn to read. Andrew Klaven explains multiculturalism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9POkP2oCFhA
and this one is just to annoy some:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWHgUE9AD4s
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July 5, 2011 3:39pm
Manolo

The hopeless socialist Goff keps mum on the subject, but we all know all sort of new (and higher) taxes will be unleashed on productive New Zealanders if the comrades have their way.
http://newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=199873
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July 5, 2011 3:43pm
Banana Llama

Gumpy brown mofo bringing race into a debate about religion.

Cheers dude, you want to fight whitey go grab your gun and off you go i will see you on the 6-o’clock news.
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July 5, 2011 3:50pm
Elaycee

Shit. 6.5 earthquake 20 mins ago. 50kms west of Taupo (150kms down).

🙁
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July 5, 2011 4:05pm
Manolo

NewstalkZB on the shake: http://newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=199876
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July 5, 2011 4:11pm
southtop

felt a good sized hit in the Nelson area
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July 5, 2011 4:12pm
Manolo

Our “brave” politicians, Goff and Key, coincide while speaking on the burqa: http://newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=199865
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July 5, 2011 4:13pm
grumpyoldhori

Banana Llama a gun is a artillery piece, the word you are looking for is firearm.
Jeez, spare us from dumb white mo/fos who cannot even use their own language.
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July 5, 2011 4:21pm
Banana Llama

No i am meaning gun as in a slang for a firearm if i wanted to be more accurate i would say go accelerate some mass using chemical combustion but that would be stupid.
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July 5, 2011 4:27pm
Manolo

DPF not in England, but France cycling the Tour. He looks a bit different in the photo, but is him all the same. 😀
http://msn.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10736408
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July 5, 2011 4:33pm
tom hunter

Thanks Tom, those were two great examples of phobic people. Bigotry is an equal-opportunity field: it is not confined by race, religion, gender, age or sexuality, …..

Woosh!! That sound you heard rushing over your head was ….. Oh fuck it.

Species. You forgot species in your must-be-totally-inclusive-lest-I-be-accused-of-an-ism-or-phobia laundry list – otherwise known as the smug list.

… but possibly has a strong inverse correlation with intelligence.

Of course. For in Lefty-world everything negative is likely to have a strong inverse correlation with intelligence. That’s why, throughout history, it’s largely been unintelligent people who’ve done really bigoted, evil things.
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July 5, 2011 4:35pm
Batman

Felt it in Wellington, I am 11 floors up so the building swayed for a good 2 minutes! evidently very few people felt it in Taupo as the volcanic plateau will have absorbed much of the impact!
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July 5, 2011 4:38pm
kingofthejuice

Apparently the bus driver asked the woman to remove the Burka, but to no aveil. Isn’t Sonny Bill Williams a Muslim?
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July 5, 2011 4:41pm
mikenmild

tom

Forgive me, it’s just that the anti-Islam comments here seeme pretty similar to earlier waves of sentiment. Think about the ‘Yellow Peril’ of c. 1900, the ‘Catholic menance’ in the 1920s, ‘Reds under the beds’, 1970s dawn raids for Pasefika, etc, etc. All stem from fear and ignorance.

And you’d be wrong to think the left has a monopoly on challenging bigotry.
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July 5, 2011 4:45pm
mikenmild

king

I didn’t know that. First muslim All Black?
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July 5, 2011 4:48pm
kowtow

Yellow peril was about workers protecting their wages from a new wave of immigration. Anything wrong with that?
Dawn raids,oh dear,is there something wrong with removing overstayers?
Not sure about the Catholics.

Key says NZ is “multicultural” ,when was NZ asked its opinion on that?Maybe he should open parliament with a Muslim prayer and install a sharia ,not Westminster form of government then.

Saudi Consul complains about womens rights in NZ,what can you say?

As to the bus drivers ,good on em,people with covered faces must be frightening .If they want to wear desert garb then back to the desert with them.

It’s not part of our Anglo Saxon Christian culture,history or tradition.
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July 5, 2011 5:00pm
Pete George

Sonny William Williams became a Muslim after converting to Islam in 2008.
He is the first Muslim to represent the All Blacks and the Crusaders.
It doesn’t say if Sonny is a Sunni.
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July 5, 2011 5:03pm
kingofthejuice

@mikenmild (866) Says:
July 5th, 2011 at 4:48 pm

Indeed, the first Muslim All Black I know of….. seems he has a penchant for conversions.
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July 5, 2011 5:04pm
Pete George

Sonny is Sunni.

He also seems to have put his alcohol problems behind him. Religion can have a positive influence on many people.
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July 5, 2011 5:11pm
Banana Llama

“Yellow Peril’ of c. 1900, the ‘Catholic menance’ in the 1920s, ‘Reds under the beds’, 1970s dawn raids for Pasefika”

Throwing Immigration, religion, political ideology and law enforcement under a label called bigotry hardly dose justice to each case you mentioned above.
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July 5, 2011 5:12pm
mikenmild

Banana

I think I can make a case for bigotry for those instances. Prime factors have been fear of the unknown and an obstinate refusal to accept alternative points of view.
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July 5, 2011 5:15pm
kowtow

An alternative point of view would be beheading for a Muslim who became a Christian.
Now there’s one for the human rights folks to consider or stoning for adultery.

Why tolerate the intolerant?
Why are westerners bigots when they point out Islamic bigotry?
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July 5, 2011 5:22pm
Banana Llama

Yes you could find examples of bigotry but it is not doing justice for those people on either side who where pitted against one another.
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July 5, 2011 5:28pm
mikenmild

kowtow

Being tolerant doesn’t mean suspending critical judgement. We don’t have to condone all of those views in New Zealand. A lot of New Zealanders might like to see capital punishment reinstated. Correct me if I’m wrong, but not all Islamic countries inflict the death penalty, do they?
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July 5, 2011 5:29pm
adze

I think the bus driver was in the wrong here, I can’t think of a reason why it would be necessary for them to see a passenger’s face. I do think there are some situations where this would be required in a secular society however; such as a photo ID check, security sensitive locations such as banks, and in court.
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July 5, 2011 5:38pm
Rodders

Mike said “Correct me if I’m wrong, but not all Islamic countries inflict the death penalty, do they?”

Not all, but most can http://www.amnesty.org/en/death-penalty/abolitionist-and-retentionist-countries
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July 5, 2011 5:42pm
kowtow

How many western countries impose the death penalty for adultery?

A quick internet search shows it’s current and legal or quasi legal in Iran,Saudi Arabia,parts of Indonesia and Pakistan and Somalia.I wonder what legal system they follow?

And it will be become widespread in Afghanistan after NATO and co pulls out.
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July 5, 2011 5:53pm
Tauhei Notts

Grumpyoldhori at 3.25
I think they might be of the Ratana persuasion, or even Jehovah’s Witness or Seventh Day Adventist. I doubt whether they would be sucked into the Destiny carry-on. But I do not know.
What I do know is that they would have little respect for Louise Wall’s civil union partner, but they are the sort of women who would be very civil when dealing with that Prue Kapua.
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July 5, 2011 6:04pm
Pauleastbay

Oh, well national are fucked, Phil has just been on the news with a sure fire election winner,, A capital gains Tax.

I knew he was a clever bastard behind the bumbling incompetent exterior
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July 5, 2011 6:11pm
fatboy slim

Forget any capital gains in Christchurch, but I am just a simple dimple.
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July 5, 2011 6:16pm
Viking2

Garrett cleared of perjury
BELINDA MCCAMMON
Last updated 16:07 05/07/2011

David Garrett
PHIL REID/The Dominion Post
DAVID GARRETT: Used details from a dead toddler’s grave to create a false identity.

Police investigating allegations of fraud by former Act MP David Garrett, say they have closed the case after finding no criminal offending.

District Criminal Investigations Manager for Waitemata Police, Detective Inspector Bruce Scott, announced this afternoon the investigation had found no criminal offending in the case and Garrett would not be charged with perjury.

“This matter has been subject to a thorough investigation and legal review.

Now this will get up a lot of lefty noses.
Good on you David.
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July 5, 2011 6:22pm
Viking2

Tiki Taane to fight charge
Last updated 12:39 05/07/2011

CHARGED: Singer Tiki Taane appears at the Tauranga District Court.
Tiki Taane speaks outside court

Singer Tiki Taane has reaffirmed he will fight a charge of disorderly behaviour relating to an incident during a gig in April.

Taane, 34, was arrested at a Tauranga club – Illuminati on Harrington St – in the early hours of April 10 for disorderly behaviour likely to cause violence to start or continue.

He allegedly began singing the NWA rap anthem ”F*** the Police” when police entered the club to carry out a routine inspection.

Taane is defending the charge on the basis he was not acting in a disorderly way and was exercising freedom of speech.

And of course the joke of the week is that Tiki has written a new song. Yep, Even if you lock me up you can’t take away my freedom of speech.

Need more like him. (even if I don’t agree with what he sang at the time. Bloody Nazi’s with nothing better to do.)
http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/music/5235543/Tiki-Taane-to-fight-charge
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July 5, 2011 6:24pm
Manolo

The return of a soon-to-be-dead tyrant (fingers crossed)
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07/04/chavez-returns-to-venezuela-from-cuba/?test=latestnews
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July 5, 2011 6:26pm
Manolo

The unintended consequences and undesirable effects of social engineering (pun intended):
http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/06/obamas_wants_engineering_students_and_diversity.html

Hat Tip: Crusader Rabbit
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July 5, 2011 6:30pm
Viking2

Aucklanders make a big deal over a 2.9 that felt like a gust of wind all over the news. Wellingtonians brush off a 6.5,” Keegan Check said.

About sums up Aucklanders.
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July 5, 2011 6:32pm
Viking2

Melbourne shaken by 4.4-magnitude quake
1:57 PM Tuesday Jul 5, 2011

A 4.4 magnitude earthquake has struck near Melbourne, Australia, authorities have reported.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10736469
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July 5, 2011 6:34pm
fatboy slim

Christchurch farts 4.4 quakes every second day.
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July 5, 2011 6:52pm
nasska

In the year 2011, the Lord came unto Noah, who was now living in the New Zealand, and said, “Once again, the earth has become wicked and over-populated, and I see the end of all flesh before me.
“Build another Ark and save two of every living thing along with a few good humans.” He gave Noah the blueprints, saying, “You have 6 months to build the Ark before I will start the unending rain for 40 days and 40 nights.”
Six months later, the Lord looked down and saw Noah weeping in his backyard – but no Ark. “Noah!” He roared, “I’m about to start the rain! Where is the Ark?”
“Forgive me, Lord,” begged Noah, “but things have changed. I needed a building permit. I’ve been arguing with the inspector about the need for a sprinkler system. My neighbours claim that I’ve violated the zoning laws by constructing the Ark in my yard and exceeding the height limitations. We had to go to the Environment Court for a decision.
“Then the NZ Transport Agency demanded a bond be posted for the future costs of moving power lines and other overhead obstructions, to clear the passage for the Ark’s move to the sea. I told them that the sea would be coming to us, but they would hear nothing of it.
“Getting the wood was another problem. There’s a ban on cutting native trees in order to save the snails. I tried to convince the environmentalists that I needed the wood to save the snails – but no go!
“When I started gathering the animals, an animal rights group prosecuted me.
“They insisted that I was confining wild animals against their will. They argued the accommodation was too restrictive, and it was cruel and inhumane to put so many animals in a confined space.
“Then the Auckland Council ruled that I couldn’t build the Ark until they’d conducted an environmental impact study on your proposed flood.
“The trades unions say I can’t use my sons. They insist I have to hire only Union workers with Ark-building experience.
“To make matters worse, the IRD seized all my assets, claiming I’m trying to leave the country illegally with endangered species.
“So, forgive me, Lord, but it would take at least ten years for me to finish this Ark.”
Suddenly the skies cleared, the sun began to shine, and a rainbow stretched across the sky. Noah looked up in wonder and asked, “You mean you’re not going to destroy the world?”
“No,” said the Lord, “the government beat me to it!”
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July 5, 2011 7:01pm
Rodders

🙂
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July 5, 2011 7:02pm
reid

Lots of girly men in the British Foreign Office these days, apparently:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2010960/Why-ashamed-celebrate-Waterloo-Government-refuses-mark-brutal-battle-allowed-build-worlds-greatest-empire.html
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July 5, 2011 7:08pm
reid

What do people think about the threatened union picket to stop KiwiRail from unloading their new rolling stock?

They’re definitely going to do it, the unions, so what should KiwiRail do? Negotiate? What’s to negotiate. No way in hell is KiwiRail ever going to tool up and make the wagons here, it just ain’t going to happen.

So next step is possibly rolling strikes on the passenger trains.

Wonder what the govt is planning on doing. Nothing? What are its options? Anyone know?
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July 5, 2011 7:14pm
mikenmild

reid

Really; they’ll strike over that? Self-defeating fools.
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July 5, 2011 7:16pm
Steve

kowtow@5.53
‘How many western countries impose the death penalty for adultery?’

Well this country may. If my wife finds out about my girlfriend she will kill me. If my girlfriend finds out I am married, she will kill me. I could get killed twice!

My name is not really Steve
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July 5, 2011 7:16pm
WebWrat

mikenmild (872) Says:
July 5th, 2011 at 1:49 pm

To be fair to KH, the accusation of racism might seem a bit much, but islamophobia seems to being out reactions quite similar to xenophobia. Possibly this is becasue they are similar fears based on ignorance, bigotry and fear.
……………………………

Perhaps if you did a bit of research you would understand.
This is NOT counting 9/11.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/LinktoTROP.htm
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July 5, 2011 7:17pm
Pauleastbay

Seamus and Paddy were having a quite beer when Seamus says:

“By the way Paddy, a word of advice. When you are giving the Missus a good seeing to like you were yesterday afternoon, you might like to close up the curtains. The neighbours all had a great laugh watching you go at it in every room . I just don’t want to see you made a laughing stock.”

Paddy says ‘Don’t worry Seamus, the laughs on them I was no where near home yesterday afternoon”.
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July 5, 2011 7:18pm
Rodders

😀
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July 5, 2011 7:20pm
Hurf Durf

He is the first Muslim to represent…the Crusaders.

I hope Hizb-ut-Tahrir don’t find that out, Pete! Might be a bit awkward when you have to explain it.
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July 5, 2011 7:25pm
Steve

Road rage,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2RwRr_rXBY&NR=1
Pass it on to Celia and Len
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July 5, 2011 7:29pm
nasska

A man returns home a day early from a business trip. It’s after midnight. While en route home he asks the taxi driver if he would be a witness.
The man suspects his wife is having an affair and he wants to catch her in the act. For $100, the driver agrees.
Quietly arriving home, the husband and driver tip toe into the bedroom. The husband switches on the lights, yanks the blanket back and there is his wife in bed with another man!
The husband puts a gun to the naked man’s head.
The wife shouts, ‘Don’t do it! I lied when I told you I inherited money.
HE paid for the Corvette I gave you.
HE paid for our new cabin cruiser.
HE paid for your Reds season tickets.
HE paid for our beach house.
HE paid for your motorcycle.
HE paid for our golf club membership, and HE even pays the monthly fees!’
Shaking his head from side-to-side, the husband lowers the gun. He looks over at the taxi driver and says, ‘What would you do?’
The driver replies, ‘I’d cover his arse with that blanket before he catches a cold.’
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July 5, 2011 7:29pm
kowtow

reid
Sadly there’s form for that girlie nonsense cowardice . Do you recall 2005 Trafalgar anniversary? They had a red and blue fleet.How can Britain afford to commemorate any military victory over the French when we (the Brits) have to share French aircraft carriers in future?
How has Britain been brought so low?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trafalgar_200
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July 5, 2011 7:31pm
reid

Really; they’ll strike over that? Self-defeating fools.

What they’ve said mm is that the Railways Union is not the Maritime Union but the Maritime Union won’t cross a picket line if the Railways Union sets one up and the Railways Union say that’s what they’re going to do when the ship carrying the first twenty or so cars docks in 10 days.

This is the first of many such shipments.

This is their announced plan.

Now this can’t afford to disrupt either the RWC or passenger rail due to the fact if it does the govt has to step in, during an election year, when all the unions are all bolshy.

However KiwiRail cannot and will not change its position one iota.

So police will be called in and let’s see what happens then.

Maybe it will just be a week on the news cycle then die down. Who knows, but real dumb move on the union’s part, they don’t understand commerce at all, in any way. Or they’re just doing it to make some other point and goodness only knows what they may ever be…

How has Britain been brought so low?

People like these kowtow

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/mary-ann-sieghart/mary-ann-sieghart-where-have-all-the-europhiles-gone-2306302.html
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July 5, 2011 7:35pm
kingofthejuice

Yay! Labour proposes a capital gains tax!! About time too. Muahahahaaaha!!!
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July 5, 2011 8:04pm
Hurf Durf

Arnold Schwarzenegger’s wife has filed for divorce but she doesn’t want any money or the house.

Just his clothes, boots and motorcycle.
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July 5, 2011 8:09pm
F E Smith

David G,

further to Viking’s 6.22pm comment, congratulations on the result announced by the Police today. You will be relieved to have closure to the investigation and as a colleague I am pleased that a prosecution is not to be taken.
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July 5, 2011 8:10pm
James

David Garrett back in the house asap! If that Ginga boy scarer can be said to be able to return sometime with the cloud still hanging over him then Garretts a shoe in.
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July 5, 2011 8:13pm
reid

This is so good.

Trashes UK’s windmill strategy.

Basically, to balance the grid when there is no wind, which happened all last winter, during peak demand, the UK needs 17 new gas-fired stations kept 24/7/365 on “spinning reserve” until they’re needed.

Unfortunately, CO2 emissions are much more on “spinning reserve” than they are when running at full efficiency, cancelling out the CO2 savings which are the raison d’etre for the whole windmill strategy, anyway.

Crikey.

And we think our politicians are all mental.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/8612716/Proof-that-the-Government-is-tilting-at-windmills.html

Two things make this even more absurd. One, as the energy companies pointed out to DECC, is that it will be amazingly costly and wildly uneconomical, since the dedicated power plants will often have to run at a low rate of efficiency, burning gas but not producing electricity. This will add billions more to our fuel bills for no practical purpose. The other absurdity, as recent detailed studies have confirmed, is that gas-fired power stations running on “spinning reserve” chuck out much more CO2 than when they are running at full efficiency – thus negating any savings in CO2 emissions supposedly achieved by the windmills themselves.

Is there no longer anyone around at DECC who is familiar with these very basic practical points? The policy on which our national energy strategy is now centred is a ludicrously expensive, self-defeating joke, which will achieve no benefits whatever – even if you are among the diminishing number of people who still believe that man-made CO2 is causing catastrophic climate change.

P.S. David Garrett, endorse the above. You have integrity, you were young, it happens. Congratulations.
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July 5, 2011 8:24pm
nasska

James

Agree entirely. David G did the honourable thing & resigned when the shit hit the fan. His reward should be the chance to be returned to Parliament.
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July 5, 2011 8:28pm
reid

His reward should be the chance to be returned to Parliament.

No can’t happen, won’t be tolerated. Most people don’t think, they feel.

Sadly, this is democracy.

Lest anyone misunderstand, this isn’t my opinion as to what should happen, it’s my prediction of what will happen.

These days we get lots of MSM rushes to judgements. It’s happening now with Thompson. Who’s next?
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July 5, 2011 8:40pm
F E Smith

“Most people don’t think, they feel.”

Got it in one, reid.
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July 5, 2011 8:46pm
Tauhei Notts

Reid,
Your reasoned contributions help make this the best blog on the net.
Keep up the good work.
It is appreciated.
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July 5, 2011 8:47pm
reid

As are yours Tauhei, FES, et al.
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July 5, 2011 8:54pm
mikenmild

Agreed, Tauhei, reid is a great contributor. I don’t always agree with him, but he debates rationally and provides reasons for his opinions. Lots of good links, too!
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July 5, 2011 8:54pm
AlphaKiwi

Read the Koran and Hadiths then you’ll develop Islamophobia.
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July 5, 2011 8:55pm
reid

Read the Koran and Hadiths then you’ll develop Islamophobia.

Apparently, 1,500,000,000 human beings don’t agree AK.

Quite the opposite in fact. They seem very keen on it.

Isn’t that peculiar.
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July 5, 2011 9:12pm
Fletch

Interesting quotes from Winston Churchill –

“Indeed it is evident that Christianity, however degraded and distorted by cruelty and intolerance, must always exert a modifying influence on men’s passions, and protect them from the more violent forms of fanatical fever, as we are protected from smallpox by vaccination. But the Mahommedan religion increases, instead of lessening, the fury of intolerance. It was originally propagated by the sword, and ever since, its votaries have been subject, above the people of all other creeds, to this form of madness.”

“Civilisation is confronted with militant Mahommedanism. The forces of progress clash with those of reaction. The religion of blood and war is face to face with that of peace. Luckily the religion of peace is usually the better armed.”

“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child, a wife, or a concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

“Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytising faith.”
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July 5, 2011 10:18pm
reid

Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytising faith

Indeed it is.

It’s also a lot of other things as well, apparently, for why would so many be so interested for so long over history, were it merely that?

You see what you focus on. If you only ever focus on militant proselytising, what else pray tell, will you ever see?

Does one see beauty in quality Muslim art for example, or does one see militant proselytising in that, as well?
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July 5, 2011 10:29pm

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