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July 28, 2011 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 28 July 2011

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General Debate

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Griff

Its called post modern civilization you can get a Neolithic civilization remove half of it and it will be totally equal in todays industrial world.of cause you can not make computers with a stone axe bit never mind the last 2000 years of western civilization don’t count
Then there is the spin one side is portrayed as just fair honest Nobel the other as manipulative cunning stupid dishonest
sorry mike most of the last 20years of history has a strong bias towards the apologist views of the far left
the (Voldemort) were begging us to come and take over to protect themselves from ?
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July 28, 2011 8:44pm
Viking2

MM as I said go educate yourself. Be a good lad and do it yourself without us having to spoon feed you.
Can’t do it??
Then what use are you to anyone???

Not even yourself.

You are just a lazy half educated socialist individual. Like so many others.
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July 28, 2011 8:51pm
starboard

Why did the blonde scale the chain-link fence?
A: To see what was on the other side.
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July 28, 2011 9:07pm
starboard

A Captain in the foreign legion was transferred to a desert outpost. On his orientation tour he noticed a very old, seedy looking camel tied out back of the enlisted men’s barracks. He asked the Sergeant leading the tour, “What’s the camel for?” The Sergeant replied, “Well sir, it’s a long way from anywhere, and the men have natural sexual urges, so when they do, we have the camel.” The Captain said “Well, if it’s good for morale, then I guess it’s all right with me.” After he had been at the fort for about 6 months, the Captain could not stand it anymore, so he told his Sergeant, “BRING IN THE CAMEL!!!” The Sarge shrugged his shoulders and led the camel into the Captain’s quarters. The Captain got a foot stool and proceeded to have vigorous sex with the camel. As he stepped, satisfied, down from the stool and was buttoning his pants he asked the Sergeant, “Is that how the enlisted men do it?” The Sergeant replied, “Well sir, they usually just use it to ride into town.”
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July 28, 2011 9:09pm
mikenmild

Griff

I don’t know if I would sum up recent historical discourse as the apologist views of the far left. Historical debate tends to be pretty robust. For example, Keith Windschuttle, who was referenced in that Norwegian maniac’s manifesto, and the other participants in the Australian history wars. We haven’t tended to see the same level of debate here, but it’s possible.
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July 28, 2011 9:17pm
reid

mm @ 7:24

I don’t think John Ansell is prejudiced, I think he’s open minded. Why is someone who critiques common wisdom with data, prejudiced.

There’s a very disturbing and growing trend today to leap on someone who says something contrary to view, based on emotive rather than objective arguments. It happens all the time. The Auckland Employer’s Association head was fired not on the basis of what he said but on the hysterical emotive reaction arising from the showing of a biased selective fraction of an interview played by a biased selective reporter and news show and TV channel. That’s what happened to Alisdair Thompson, it did, you can’t deny it, it’s data. That’s what happened.

Your reaction to Ansell’s post, is very very similar mm. Perhaps you should reflect on that.

Hint: it’s about data, not emotion. Who cares if the data is telling you unpalatable things. If an asteroid really was heading for Earth collision, would you want to know, or not. That’s the difference between your average TV3 viewer and a rational person.
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July 28, 2011 9:22pm
Griff

Read the treaty settlement on the left start filtering the spin and you start to see how it operates.
The Queen is going to die soon big ears is a bit loony. Aussie will go republic us the same if they write the current ” treaty principles”spin into our constitution it will really cause problems for this country this shit really counts
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July 28, 2011 9:28pm
mikenmild

reid

My reaction to the post was to wonder why he would move past any historical research to find a non-historian whose views on Maori society somehow seem to reinforce Ansell’s prejudices. I can well believe that the findings about Maori population were not welcomed by the Dodgy Crown Forestry Rentals Trust, which is a good reason to look at the motives of those who fund any research.
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July 28, 2011 9:31pm
reid

If anyone is at all interested in the US debt ~~manufactured~~ crisis:

The United States Treasury securities market, with its $1 trillion per day of turnover, represents a unique national asset for our country. It is a signal achievement of the American System of Political Economy founded by Alexander Hamilton. It is the broadest, deepest, and most liquid market in the world. It is capable of absorbing trillions of dollars of securities and turning them into cash within a few hours – a capability unique on this planet. Despite how indignant we all are about the abuses of Wall Street, it would be extremely unwise to permit the Treasury securities market to be wrecked by ideological fanatics. All the more so since the Treasury market is unique in the world, and its extinction would leave no currency whatsoever in a position to function as the reserve medium of the world. This would have terrible implications for world trade and investment.

In short, our Treasury securities are the bedrock of all economic activity in this planet, and the common interest of humanity is well served by avoiding their chaotic insolvency.

mm again you refer to “prejudice” which is emotion and again I repeat, John Ansell is merely citing data. If you have data too which is of similar transparent origin re: its efficacy, then pray tell, otherwise, what’s your point?
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July 28, 2011 9:48pm
mikenmild

John Ansell quoted from Dr Robinson’s ‘explosive new book’:
“Maori culture was not just dysfunctional but mad, criminally insane.

The consequences of those decades of killing, social disruption, destruction of crops, infanticide, fear and uncertainty was a society in shock.

There was widespread desolation and devastation among Maori communities.”

That’s not data.
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July 28, 2011 10:02pm
reid

Very good interview with Breivik’s lawyer.

Poor guy.

mm the data is in the whole book not the quotes he put in the post. If, after reading the whole book, you conclude Ansell selectively quoted and it wasn’t like that at all, then you also have data, but until then, you don’t.
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July 28, 2011 10:06pm
wreck1080

“The main item on the agenda of the wastewater management committee was to hear applications from four groups, including sub-tribe Nga Potiki, on tapping into a special cash fund that is worth $250,000.

The money has been put aside by the council for projects that mitigate the adverse environmental effects of the city’s sewerage system, including effects that offend Maori cultural and spiritual values.”

So, 250 grand is going to the maoris to study how shit offends them.

I wonder if the maori would prefer to go back to the old ways of crapping under a tree after feasting on your enemies brains.
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July 28, 2011 10:13pm
reid

I might add that people like Annette Sykes a lawyer closely associated with Mana are very intelligent and astute if misguided people and they will comb Ansell for any hint of a chink in his argument and hammer him, as he rolls it out over the coming weeks and months.

They will rip it to shreds in a heartbeat, if they can.

I don’t think they will succeed though, except on an emotive level.

But if they don’t win on the data front, then have they really won at all?

You choose mm, you’re the voter.
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July 28, 2011 10:15pm
Griff

20000 plus dead whole tribes wiped out and you think that that would not be the case

rub noses ,sit around talk, love kids
or bash them on the head and have a feed
To have balance how far right will some have to go
We don’t have a significant white nationalist skinhead faction here if balance is not restored one will developed far better to be able to discuss this subject now without being called racist than allow true racism to develop

Just a note to the sis I am harmless no intention to harm anyone in the pursuit of my views don’t own guns and don’t make bombs ( except the expulsion of gastric gas)
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July 28, 2011 10:24pm
mikenmild

So Griff, any idea what caused the Musket Wars?
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July 28, 2011 10:41pm
starboard

dunno mike but….

Why do white people go to black people’s garage sales?
To get their stuff back
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July 28, 2011 10:55pm
Griff

Utu
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July 28, 2011 11:15pm
John Ansell

Now now, starboard, you’re giving us a bad name.

You see, mikenmild, I don’t like jokes like starboard’s. That’s racism to me.

What I’m interested in is facts.

I don’t go looking for shonky non-historians, I was invited to a book launch. The author turned out to be a highly-credentialled researcher who has been trusted by a large number of Treaty-related agencies to write reports on Maori history.

That suggests to me that he is credible. What does it suggest to you?

If you’d read my post, you’d have also seen that I bagged Dr Robinson for being a socialist, and a ‘useful idiot’ in cuddling up to gangs. I also mentioned that he was a black civil rights protestor (of which I approve).

I thought you might have given me some credit for that, since it all adds up to pretty good evidence that he’s no racist.

Dr Robinson and I are poles apart on economic and other political matters, but on the subject of the Maorification of Everything, we agree.

I have other strange bedfellows on this issue too, like Chris Trotter – not that he approves of my direct language.

But I talk straight for a reason. And that is that nobody else does. I want to show that it’s OK to be honest and call things what they are.

I’ve called myself a coward at times for not speaking out as I should have. I just see plain English as a branch of honesty, and jargon and euphemism as a branch of dishonesty. I think we’d understand the world better if we defaulted to straight talk.

Anyway, as I see it, New Zealanders, both Maori and Pakeha, have been fed on a diet of lies, and it’s time for those lies to be exposed.

You yourself are not immune. You pooh-pooh the existence of people here before the Maori, yet Maori oral legend is full of reference to the people they displaced – people they called the tangata whenua.

How do you know that’s not true? Could you yourself be biased?

I don’t see that the existence or otherwise of pre-Maori people matters that much anyway. The fact is Maori are not indigenous to New Zealand. They’re invaders who invaded a few hundred years before the first Europeans.

They may or may not have wiped out an existing people. They certainly did wipe out the moa and much of NZ’s flora and fauna. (So much for their wonderful stewardship of the land.)

No doubt you find my comments unduly harsh. But I believe I am presenting facts, albeit totally unvarnished. I’m quite deliberately trying to jolt people out of their addiction to lies with some heavy and long overdue doses of truth.

The truth only hurts those who have been brought up on lies, and I can’t do much about that. I either tell the truth and hurt the liars (both witting and unwitting), or I don’t tell the truth and hurt the truthful. Much as I don’t actually enjoy hurting people’s feelings, to me it’s a no-brainer.

In other words, I believe there’s a higher principle than not upsetting the ignorant or the foolish or the liars. And that’s to tell the truth.

If you find that one of the facts I believe to be true is not true, then by all means tell me and as long as I agree with your reasoning I’ll change my mind and be happy to tell you I’ve done so.

But please don’t respond to my assertions with emotion. That just encourages me.

I’ve been getting abusive, illiterate, gangsta-text messages for the last fortnight and it merely confirms my suspicion that what I’m saying must be right, since not one of those messages has contained even one fact to refute what I’ve been saying.

If this is a debate about tone, then my opponents are on pretty shaky ground.
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July 29, 2011 12:02am
starboard

yes sorry that was racist..I dont know what came over me…I withdraw and apologise and Im sorry if I offended anyone.
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July 29, 2011 12:22am
Manolo

Some UK followers of the “religion of peace”: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019547/Anjem-Choudary-Islamic-extremists-set-Sharia-law-zones-UK-cities.html
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July 29, 2011 4:58am
Manolo

The warmists will not like this: http://michellemalkin.com/2011/07/28/nasa-satellite-un/
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July 29, 2011 5:22am
Manolo

The NYT on the incompetent Messiah: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/28/us/politics/28obama.html?_r=1
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July 29, 2011 5:24am
Viking2

John Ansell (777) Says:
July 29th, 2011 at 12:02 am

I’ve been getting abusive, illiterate, gangsta-text messages for the last fortnight and it merely confirms my suspicion that what I’m saying must be right, since not one of those messages has contained even one fact to refute what I’ve been saying.

Sad reflection on the truth of the education these people had. Violence or threats thereof to deny the Truth.

Fortunately we have no need to appease these people, which is something politicians seem to be good at.
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July 29, 2011 7:06am
Viking2

Henry’s World Cup masterplan unfolds

More hookers off field than on for World Cup

New staff were being hired at all three venues, and though he didn’t expect it to be as hectic as the 2005 Lions Tour – when large groups of men flocked to the clubs after most matches – it would top the NZI Sevens, usually the busiest time of the year.

“The Welsh guys usually have a bit of cash to throw around,” Mr Power said.

Prostitutes Collective national co-ordinator Catherine Healy said their usual condom order had been doubled to keep rugby supporters happy!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5356821/More-hookers-off-field-than-on-for-World-Cup

P.S. More choice for Dime. :0
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July 29, 2011 7:10am
nasska

“The Welsh guys usually have a bit of cash to throw around,” Mr Power said.

Could be worthwhile to crutch a couple of hundred hogget ewes & take them up North for the WC. Not all of those Welsh blokes are into women.
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July 29, 2011 7:40am
mikenmild

John Ansell

Thank you for that thoughtful post.

The reason it take some issue with Robinson’s conclusions is that they seem very much at variance with other accounts that I have seen. I am certainly not questioning his data about population statistics – that seems broadly in line with mainstream scholarship.

I am unsurprised that his former employers at the CFRT wanted to emphasise population declines since 1840. In many ways, 1840 is a very arbitrary line in the history of contact and colonisation. It obviously has a tremendous legal and constitutional significance however as it marks the point when the Crown assumed responsibilities in New Zealand.

Where I would part company with Robinson is his description of the nature of Maori society as ‘not just dysfunctional but mad, criminally insane’. That doesn’t seem to be a conclusion that could be based on any evidence I have seen. Perhaps there is more in his book.
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July 29, 2011 7:42am
John Ansell

Thank you mikenmild, I appreciate that.

You will find more in the book to justify Robinson’s emotive language (though I, too, was surprised that he said that. The rest of the book is more scholarly).

If you want to get a copy, here’s how: http://johnansell.wordpress.com/2011/07/29/how-to-make-the-corruption-of-new-zealand-democracy-a-best-seller/
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July 29, 2011 9:23pm
reid

John I dropped into Unity in Wgtn today and they didn’t have it, they said the publisher hasn’t officially released it yet for general sale.

???
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July 29, 2011 10:14pm
John Ansell

Sorry reid, I was told it was in Unity, but it wasn’t. The publisher says they’re dragging the chain with their orders and losing business from lots of people like you.

Click on the link to my site in the above comment and you’ll find three ways to get it. Parsons Bookshop is one of them.
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July 29, 2011 10:28pm
reid

Looking forward to it, thanks. For the general heads u, your courage and the book as well.

Finlayson.

Piece of work, isn’t he.
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July 29, 2011 10:35pm
John Ansell

Thanks. I think you mean Whinlayson – Christowher Whinlayson.

Not suited to democracy. Would have make a good communist. Sadly, is getting away with functioning like one.

Won’t for long though.
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July 29, 2011 11:05pm

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