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July 25, 2011 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 25 July 2011

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F E Smith

“Hell what has happened to the xtian mob, they should be ranting a slaughter like this could only be done by a Muslim”

That is just dumb.

However, it is true that, before the Norwegian police announced who the killer was, an Islamic group had claimed responsibility. Many believed that claim, probably based on the fact that in recent years a large number of the terrorist outrages in Western Europe have been committed by Muslims.

But it is also true that any ethnicity is capable of producing mass murderers. After all, in the last 100 years we have seen Turks, ethnic Germans, Poles, Russians, Chinese, Cambodian, Korean, African (ok, that is general but there are far to many ethnicities there to enumerate), Serbs, Chechnyans, and members of many other ethnicities commit murder on a grand scale. What is unusual about this is that Breivik is apparently not a member of a group that calls for mass murder. Even more unusual is that while most of the mass murder in the 20th century was committed by communists, in this case Breivik appears to have specifically targeted the youth wing of a Norwegian socialist political party.

Even more odd is that large parts of his manifesto appear to have been lifted from the Unabomber- a notoriously extreme left wing terrorist who also operated alone!

As I said, nobody says that this could only be done by a muslim; merely that muslims appear to have made up a very large portion of single event mass killers in recent years.
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July 25, 2011 6:14pm
joana

Cha
Some of the children at the indoctrination camp were 30. Why are they being called ”children?”
FE Smith
Good posts..He had a Norwegian page plus an English one..It is the English one that was altered.
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July 25, 2011 6:51pm
nasska

During a long rain delay, the cricket announcer filled in some time by sharing some cricket trivia with his fellow presenter.
“Know who hit the most sixes between 1975 and 1985? I’ll tell you — it was none other than Ian Botham.”
“Know who took the most wickets between 1975 and 1985? It was also Ian Botham.”
“And who got hit on the chin with the most balls between 1975 and 1985?”
“Ian Botham?,” ventured the fellow commentator.
“Nope,” said the announcer, “It was Michael Barrymore.”
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July 25, 2011 7:00pm
Rodders

joana @ 6.51pm said “indoctrination camp”

You’re sounding more like your “good guy” pal, Kyle Chapman with every comment you make. Weird!
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July 25, 2011 7:00pm
joana

Since these attacks , Norway has reintroduced the Schengen Border controls , as did Denmark two weeks ago much to the chagrin of other Euro countries.
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July 25, 2011 7:11pm
Steve

@ mikenmild 4.06
‘For some posters, spending all day commenting on blogs does raise their productivity.’
I guess that means if you did not post, you would have done sweet fuck all and still got paid for it. How do I get on this gravy train, to get paid for being at work to eat my lunch?
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July 25, 2011 7:26pm
nasska

Three guys were sitting in a biker bar. This man came in, he was already
drunk, sat down at the bar and ordered a drink. The man looked around and
saw the three men sitting at a corner table. He got up, staggered to the table,
leaned over, looked the biggest one in the face and said, “I went by your
grandma’s house and I saw her in the hallway, stark naked. Man, she is fine!”

The biker looked at him and didn’t say a word. His buddies were confused,
because he was a bad bastard, and would fight at he drop of a hat.

The drunk leaned on the table again and said, “I got it on with your grandma
and she is good, the best lay I ever had!”

The biker still said nothing. His buddies were starting to get mad.
The drunk leaned on the table again and said, “I’ll tell you something else
boy, your grandma liked it!”

The biker stood up, took the drunk by the shoulder and said, “Damn it,
granddad, you’re pissed. Go home!”
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July 25, 2011 7:30pm
wat dabney

http://www.givedirectly.org/home
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July 25, 2011 7:34pm
Rodders

😀 nasska 😀
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July 25, 2011 7:36pm
starboard

milkymike is a public servant on 70K plus…pot kettle mike bikey ya sponge.
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July 25, 2011 7:41pm
wat dabney

If the name Cory Maye means anything to you, these pictures might make you wipe away a tear:

http://www.theagitator.com/2011/07/23/photos-of-the-day-7/
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July 25, 2011 7:42pm
plebe

Hurf Durf (2,792) Says:

July 25th, 2011 at 5:08 pm
Maybe we could have a quick poll for the Kiwblogger most likely to commit mass murder? Nominations?

MyNameIsJack and GOH. Lot of latent anger and bitterness in their posts. Very unnerving.
YER RIGHT
The above post is scary, the insight into the soul of possiblities-guns and right wing hate

HD think i know its hard,tryPLEASE it was a RIGHT WINGER shooter, a kiwiblog/whale oil type poster.
Remember it was a right winger,had computer skills ,a mason, christian,had a degree,a farmer,lived with mum for ever.
HELL all of you could be the shooter(have you ever reread your posts SCARY)right wingers one and all
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July 25, 2011 7:44pm
cha

Pyjamas media: A double tragedy for Norway
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July 25, 2011 7:49pm
Steve

Then again it could be you that is the most unstable plebe. You have a lot of info. Are you scared you might do something irrational?
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July 25, 2011 7:52pm
Hurf Durf

Is Plebe Penny Bright? They have similar sentence structure.
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July 25, 2011 7:57pm
nasska

plebe

…”HELL all of you could be the shooter(have you ever reread your posts SCARY)right wingers one and all”…

Are you certain that you should be associating with nasty bloggers late at night? Maybe you should get Mum to make sure you haven’t crapped your treasures & go & have a bit of shuteye.
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July 25, 2011 7:57pm
F E Smith

plebe,

don’t know what your political persuasion is, although I think it would definitely be strongly left by the content of that comment (take this test and let us know) but Breivik would most definitely not be a Kiwiblog commenter. He is too extreme for most of us here, plus Kiwiblog commenters tend to go across the spectrum, so your generalising statement is very, very wrong on that aspect.

Actually, you seem to be of the left wing variety that ascribes hate-filled motives to every person on the right and then believes themselves the better person for it. You would be wrong.

So try to moderate your generalisations and join in the debate, rather than simply showing your self-righteous disdain for us. After all, if you don’t like us, you don’t have to read what we write.
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July 25, 2011 8:16pm
cha

An interesting connection of the dots.
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July 25, 2011 8:17pm
F E Smith

Actually, I think you will find most of us libertarian in many aspects, to one degree or another, although not all of us. But Breivik was more National Front than anything else, notwithstanding the National Front’s left wing policies.
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July 25, 2011 8:21pm
reid

Some things puzzle me. How come an organic farmer buys 6 tons of fertiliser, how can you get 6 tons into a car, what does a 6 ton fertiliser explosion in a car placed in the same position relative to similar buildings, actually look like.

That was a massive explosion compared to this car explosion using high explosives not just fertiliser.

I’m not suggesting anything I’m just saying, what is the data on that much fertilizer and precisely how did he get it all into a car, transport it and successfully detonate it. And if it was a van, what does that look like? I don’t care what the answer is, I just want to know.
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July 25, 2011 9:06pm
reid

Me: Fuck, anyone who really does think anti-semitism really is a driving force in any fucking thing in any western country is in the same ballpark as Sarah Palin, sanity-wise.

davidp: Then I’d like an explanation why Israel is frequently singled out for criticism for things that other countries also do without criticism. In this specific case, maybe you can explain why the Southland Times, Goff, and Norman suspected Israel of wrong doing without a SINGLE bit of evidence. There must have been tourists from 100 countries in Christchurch at the time of the earthquake, and Israeli Jews were the ONLY ones singled out as part of a deranged conspiracy theory.

Israel is an international arsehole, david. It’s not fiction the Irgun group bombed the King David Hotel in 1946 which killed British servicemen who were tasked with protecting the Jewish settlers from the Palestinans and Menachem Begin who was involved in that became Israeli PM.

You and many others all the time munt on about how Iswael is so vewy vewy opwessed in a sea of hatwed without ever once acknowledging the very obvious and undeniable historical fact that Israel as a nation ever since it was founded in 1946 has acted like an international arsehole and continues to do so. What you and many others apparently fail even to recognise as a possibility, is that when you act like a fucking arsehole, for some reason not a lot of people like you.

That just seems to be how it works.

Now Israels are an extremely intelligent population, at least equal in many areas and in certain ways superior to the best in the world. They can work this out, it’s fucking common sense. Duh.

People like you use the justification that Iswael is forced to do this, to put up a strong front, lest its enemies perceive weakness and strike and overwhelm presumably in your thinking, by sheer force of numbers, surrounded as she is. But this argument david has been obviated since Israel got the bomb and that was ages ago. Decades, generations ago. It doesn’t apply now and it hasn’t since they got it.

So why the fuck can’t Israel just lighten up and give that behaviour a go, for once in its otherwise arse-holey bastard-like life? Its people are bright, they can work this out, it’s a simple equation.

This is why david I always say Israel’s current and many past leaders have been traitors. This is the very moment when peace will pay most dividends, to the west and to Israel. Imagine if Israel got the Palestinians on board in the next year or so and it stuck, for decades. Imagine what that would do to deflate Muslim hatred.

And why, precisely, can’t they do that? Why? There is no fucking reason. They could, easily. It’s just they don’t fucking want to.

Why they don’t want to is another post entirely and not tonight, that’s for sure.
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July 25, 2011 9:24pm
nasska

reid

A ton of urea based fertiliser normally comes in square shaped white polypropolene bag for easy of carriage & storage. Measurements would be about 900x900x900mm, maybe slightly more. It would be a fairly impressive car to hold six bags never mind drive down the road with them.
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July 25, 2011 9:32pm
reid

Thanks nasska.

Well, that’s interesting.
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July 25, 2011 9:36pm
davidp

Reid… Apart from bombing a hotel in 1946 before Israel was created, you haven’t actually listed anything they’ve done that makes them an “arsehole”. You make a bizarre argument that possession of nuclear weapons means that you don’t need to defend against non-existential threats, such as rocket attack from neighbouring territories, suicide bombings, and aircraft hijack. And you don’t address the issue that I raised in another comment thread, which is that in many situations Israel is singled out for attack or criticism when other countries acting the same way are not.

The dead in Christchurch includes a Serb, a Turk, a Peruvian, a Russian, some Malaysians, and more Chinese than I cared to count. All those countries have mixed human rights records and some of them behave badly in foreign affairs. But none of their citizens were the subject of a bizarre evidence-free conspiracy theory in the Southland Times, or criticism by Goff and Norman. You say that isn’t anti-semitism. You need to advance an alternate theory that explains why the citizens of the only Jewish state were uniquely under evidence-free suspicion.
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July 25, 2011 9:40pm
F E Smith

reid, that is rubbish and you know it. Israel cannot use nuclear weapons when fighting insurgents. Hell, they couldn’t even use them if another country attacked them, but they do make for a good argument against attack. It is exactly the same argument that occurred in the cold war- mutually assured destruction and all that.

Israel did not act like an ‘arsehole’ when it was invaded immediately upon independence in 1948. Nor did it act like one in 1973. Whether one agrees with Israeli governmental policy or not, the fact is that it does exist and many other countries and groups don’t want it to exist. One of those groups now controls Lebanon and another controls the former Egyptian territory of Gaza, while Fatah, which controls the former Jordanian occupied territory of the West Bank, still promotes militant action against Israel.

As you pointed out, this isn’t so much about a war between middle eastern states any more so much as an insurgency conducted by Iranian and Syrian client groups against Israel. And as I have just noted, having nuclear weapons is of no use against those groups.

But you are definitely wrong in your point about anti-semitism. It is very much alive and well in Europe, not state policy perhaps but behind a lot of bigotry, discrimination and outright ugliness, driven mostly by people on the left.
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July 25, 2011 9:47pm
wat dabney

reid,

Why would you suppose that all 6 tons were used and loaded into the car?

I mean, why?
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July 25, 2011 9:58pm
reid

FES, the justification for Israel’s security posture vis-a-vis the Palestinians is asymetric warfare which you’re correct, cannot be fought with WMD.

But mass invasion can, by targeting the home population centers outside of your own borders. It’s the geo-strategic behaviour that my 9:24 addresses.

Israel did not act like an ‘arsehole’ when it was invaded immediately upon independence in 1948. Nor did it act like one in 1973.

So you’re saying their behaviour in 2011 is justified by that?

Whether one agrees with Israeli governmental policy or not, the fact is that it does exist and many other countries and groups don’t want it to exist.

Never said it shouldn’t FES. It needs to alter its behaviour for its counter-productive to its own citizens.

One of those groups now controls Lebanon and another controls the former Egyptian territory of Gaza, while Fatah, which controls the former Jordanian occupied territory of the West Bank, still promotes militant action against Israel.

Yes it does so is putting thousands of bomblets into the border area on the basis of how many? 1? rocket fatalities a "proportionate response?" (Let's not talk about Gaza 2009, et al.)

Asymetric warfare is all about proportionate response FES and Israel doesn't do that. Since they are bright and well-versed in things military, why is that, I wonder?

But you are definitely wrong in your point about anti-semitism. It is very much alive and well in Europe, not state policy perhaps but behind a lot of bigotry, discrimination and outright ugliness, driven mostly by people on the left.

FES I think Europe is the example for a one world govt. It’s the pilot program and you can see it. Israel has biblical connotations which is precisely why almost everyone in the Christian-Judeo heritage region of the world has strong feelings on it. One world govt has designs on destroying religious allegiance of any and all kinds, since it doesn’t like the competition. Israel is the top of the heap. Imagine how many people would leave or wouldn’t join, if Israel, Israel, was massively defeated or degraded in some way. That’s why Europe is slowly slowly slice the elephant becoming gradually more and more anti-Israel and the thing that many have missed thus far in the total picture is, it’s also why Israel’s own leaders do things to give Europe an excuse to ratchet up the ante.

If anyone thinks this is a left-right play, that’s an illusion.
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July 25, 2011 10:14pm
davidp

Reid>Yes it does so is putting thousands of bomblets into the border area on the basis of how many? 1? rocket fatalities a “proportionate response?”

A proportionate response is the minimum response (*) required to stop Lebanon and Gaza shooting rockets. Neither country have stopped. Both are rearming so they can shoot more rockets in the future. Therefore Israel’s response has been less than proportionate.

(*) I don’t think there is anything wrong with a more than proportionate response. Dishing out punishment is sometimes the only way to stop rogue countries misbehaving.
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July 25, 2011 10:22pm
grumpyoldhori

davidp NZ anti-semitic, what a load of shit, NZ did not send Jews back to Germany to be gassed unlike a Israeli ally one could name.
NZ had the first PM who was a practising Jew.

If the Israelis are arseholes and Jews well too fucking bad, maybe they will learn to keep their bloody paws off our passports.
None of the other countries citizens have tried to steal our passports.

Nukes,Yom Kipper, the idiot Israelis loaded nukes for a strike on Cairo, they were bloody lucky Nixon warned the USSR about it or it would have been Russian instant sunshine over Tel Aviv after Cairo was nuked.
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July 25, 2011 10:26pm
reid

reid, Why would you suppose that all 6 tons were used and loaded into the car? I mean, why?

I thought that’s what the report said and if less than 6 tons were used then what does that look like? That’s all, wat. Like I said above, if it’s a van, fine, whatever it was, what does it look like?

I ask this cause obviously fertiliser bombs have power but relative to the high-explosive power it’s nothing, velocity-wise which is the damage gradient isn’t it. Plus the damage to the building was substantial, so what does it look like, is all I’m asking.
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July 25, 2011 10:29pm
reid

A proportionate response is the minimum response (*) required to stop Lebanon and Gaza shooting rockets. Neither country have stopped. Both are rearming so they can shoot more rockets in the future. Therefore Israel’s response has been less than proportionate.

david:

People like you use the justification that Iswael is forced to do this, to put up a strong front, lest its enemies perceive weakness and strike and overwhelm presumably in your thinking, by sheer force of numbers, surrounded as she is. But this argument david has been obviated since Israel got the bomb and that was ages ago. Decades, generations ago. It doesn’t apply now and it hasn’t since they got it.

It’s not an existential fight david. So proportionate response rules in asymmetric warfare, OK? How come most other countries disagree it’s proportionate?
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July 25, 2011 10:31pm
F E Smith

Reid,

“So you’re saying their behaviour in 2011 is justified by that?”

Actually, yes.

“It needs to alter its behaviour for its counter-productive to its own citizens.”

Not sure I agree on that one, either. I think for the most part Israel is doing as little as it can while still giving its citizens the protection it must. I doubt that the Arabs have any desire for peace, therefore whatever Israel does will never be enough. Therefore, ignore the Arabs and get on with defending the country.

“Yes it does so is putting thousands of bomblets into the border area on the basis of how many? 1? rocket fatalities a “proportionate response?” (Let’s not talk about Gaza 2009, et al.)

Asymetric warfare is all about proportionate response FES and Israel doesn’t do that. Since they are bright and well-versed in things military, why is that, I wonder?”

All about speaking softly and carrying a big stick, reid. since the Gaza 2009 ceasefire something like 700 plus rockets have been launched into Israel. There have been fatalities to some. In addition, we get incidents like the murder of an entire family, including a 3 month old child. Hit them harder, I say. Being proportionate has taken Israel nowhere.

Re your last paragraph, the problem isn’t so much that they are becoming anti-Israel. Political opposition is fine. But they are becoming more and more anti-Semitic. That isn’t ok at all. And to a certain extent you are correct, it isn’t a left/right play. However, I put to you that a) it is more left than right, and b) the idea of what is left and right has been shifted so that much of what we now think of being centrist or even centre-right is actually still leftist (not my idea, see recent Powerlineblog posts). That being the case, it really is primarily a left wing issue. The right don’t seem as perturbed by a person being ethnically Jewish like the left does.
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July 25, 2011 10:33pm
reid

I doubt that the Arabs have any desire for peace, therefore whatever Israel does will never be enough. Therefore, ignore the Arabs and get on with defending the country.

OK so you’re the Israeli Defence Minister. What is the best path forward?

Look inward, to internal security and continue the same counter-productive actions or look outward, to continued vigilant security combined with really clever perception management? [FES trust I don’t need to explain, I’m not talking vapid propaganda I’m suggesting real actions plus propaganda, with PM].

All about speaking softly and carrying a big stick, reid.

Exactly what I have always always said. Read every comment I have made about Israel. I have never suggested weakening Israel’s security and I don’t think that’s a good idea. I have only ever said, drop the aggressive posture. Period. Totally. That is all repeat all, I have ever said, ever.

But they are becoming more and more anti-Semitic. That isn’t ok at all.

It’s propagated by the left channel FES only because it’s compatible with that sides memes: victimhood, heart-strings, etc.

That doesn’t mean it originates in that channel.
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July 25, 2011 10:56pm
grumpyoldhori

F E Smith, the Israelis are rather blind, they cannot see that each shell they kill children with loses them support in the EU.

It will be bloody interesting when the EU trade sanctions go on Israel, along with sport, academic, etc etc etc.
It is amusing how Israel rants the EU need them, need them for what ?
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July 25, 2011 11:07pm
Joseph Carpenter

Reid 10.29pm.
Wat Dabney’s question was entirely appropriate.
No one has suggested he used 6 tonnes in a bomb (Note: not tons, like Norway we use SI measurements and have done for a while, you probably missed it). Only that he purchased that amount.

As to your ignorant rubbish regarding explosive power – ANFO is a HIGH EXPLOSIVE and nearly as powerful (75-85%) as pure TNT and if he used ANNM or another AN based enhanced explosive they are more powerful than TNT. On the few photos I’ve seen the damage could have resulted from only 500kg of ANFO which would easily fit in a station wagon or SUV, even less if he used good confinement/compression design, something which any EDO tech or someone experienced with explosives could confirm. Probably the bulk of the AN is still at or on his farm.
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July 25, 2011 11:32pm
reid

As to your ignorant rubbish regarding explosive power – ANFO is a HIGH EXPLOSIVE and nearly as powerful (75-85%) as pure TNT and if he used ANNM or another AN based enhanced explosive they are more powerful than TNT. On the few photos I’ve seen the damage could have resulted from only 500kg of ANFO which would easily fit in a station wagon or SUV, even less if he used good confinement/compression design, something which any EDO tech or someone experienced with explosives could confirm. Probably the bulk of the AN is still at or on his farm.

Joseph thanks for this learned exposition but (a) I was asking for explication of facts of which you didn’t give me and (b) I never made allegations just asked questions.

So quite how you conclude I’m being “ignorant” is somewhat beyond me.

??
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July 25, 2011 11:41pm
krazykiwi

Grumpy wonders why the EU need Israel. It is a good question. Why would any country or group of countries be interested in a little spec of dirt that lists it’s achievements as including:

Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees per capita in the world.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation in the world – by a large margin.

Israel has the highest number of scientists and technicians per capita in the world – by a large margin.

Israel has the highest number of engineers per capita in the world.

Israel has the highest number of PhD’s per capita in the world.

Israel has the highest number of physicians per capita in the world.

Israel has the largest percentage of it’s workforce employed in technical professions in the world.

Israel has the largest number of start up companies per capita in the world.

Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies outside of the US and Canada .

Apart from the Silicon Valley , Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world.

The cell phone was developed in Israel at Motorola’s largest development centre.

The first anti-virus software for computers was developed in Israel in 1979.

Both the Pentium-4 and Centrino processors were entirely designed, developed and produced in Israel ..

The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.

Israel has the highest number of home computers per capita in the world.

Israel has more museums per capita than any other nation in the world.

Israel has more orchestras per capita than any other nation in the world.

Israel publishes more books per capita than any other nation in the world.

Israel publishes more books translated from other languages than any other nation in the world.

Israel reads more books per capita than any other nation in the world.

Israel’s dairy cows are the most productive dairy cows in the world. They average 25,432 pounds of milk per cow per year, compared to just 18,747 pounds from American cows; 17,085 from Canadian cows; 13,778 from European Union cows; 10,207 from Australian cows; and 6,600 from Chinese cows.

Yeah, waste of time having anything to do with them.
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July 25, 2011 11:41pm
reid

So what, kk?

Seriously?

Shame we’re not having this discussion on Sat arvo, really, given its significance, this time and day don’t do it justice.
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July 25, 2011 11:57pm
TimG_Oz

Shit reid .. looks like you forgot to take your medicine again tonight. You might want to check your alarm batteries …
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July 26, 2011 12:00am
Manolo

Queueing for more of our money (in another bogus claim): http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/national/5338695/Hundreds-march-to-lay-Waitangi-claim
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July 26, 2011 7:27am
krazykiwi

So what, kk? Seriously?

There’s never a bad time for facts reid. These ones pertain to a country that often maligned, and grumpy et al were doing so above. That’s all.
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July 26, 2011 8:23am
ross

F E SMith said “Israel cannot use nuclear weapons when fighting insurgents.”

They don’t need to use such weapons. Israel is killing plenty of men, women and children by conventional means, not to mention unconventional means. Think for a minute – why are some of Israel’s harshest critics from Israel? Maybe they’ve seen the effects of Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestine. To the extent that even an Israeli soldier, after his daughter has been killed by a suicide bomber, feels that the female bomber is as much a victim as his daughter. When a victim’s father can have considerable empathy for a suicide bomber, it should make you think about your beliefs.
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October 27, 2011 12:39pm
ross

> It will be bloody interesting when the EU trade sanctions go on Israel, along with sport, academic, etc etc etc.

Indeed. I can recall all the whingeing when there was a protest about an Israeli tennis player coming to play here. Those same people have probably forgotten about the protests during the 1981 Springbok tour. All that pressure that was brought to bear from the international community on South Africe. It was just a coincidence that the apartheid regime was subsequently dismantled.
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October 27, 2011 12:44pm

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