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July 13, 2011 7:49am by David Farrar

General Debate 13 July 2011

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103PapPap

Do I get something for being first?
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July 13, 2011 8:02am
Pete George

Are you a young woman and/or brown faced?

Bring on the girls… Brash acts to fight white blokes image

Act leader Don Brash says the party needs more young women and brown faces as candidates to more broadly represent New Zealand society at the election.

Bring on the naivety?
Bring on the great timing?

Why not stick to what they’re supposed to be good at? I doubt Brash Act will ever be chick magnet and brown brothers.
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July 13, 2011 8:07am
Luc Hansen

Just to reinforce yesterday’s debunking of yet another another myth promoted on Kiwiblog:

New Zealand has a quota of 750 refugees that it receives every year. Asylum-seekers are not counted under the quota system. In 2010-11 236 asylum-seekers were processed, of which 21 were accepted.

The previous year 287 applied and 91 were accepted and in 2008-09, 208 applied and 72 were accepted.

– Additional reporting: NZPA
By Derek Cheng | Email Derek,
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July 13, 2011 8:40am
nasska

…”New Zealand has a quota of 750 refugees that it receives every year.”….

Great. What’s the bet that over 700 of them can’t speak English, are on the dole from the day they arrive, have no intention of integrating & breed like rats?
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July 13, 2011 8:52am
mikenmild

nasska

Ah, the voice of tolerance and light. I assume you have a lot of research that backs up your assertions.
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July 13, 2011 8:56am
Dave Mann

@nasska: Naturally many refugees will not speak english when they arrive… they normally don’t come from english speaking countries FFS. Having worked a little bit with some refugees I think the pattern is often that their children grow up and work hard and flourish here. We are giving these people refuge and an opportunity for a new life; thats what the word means.
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July 13, 2011 9:10am
mike tan

“Liberty cannot be preserved without general knowledge among the people.” – John Adams

“Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it.”
– Milton Friedman

“A system of capitalism presumes sound money, not fiat money manipulated by a central bank. Capitalism cherishes voluntary contracts and interest rates that are determined by savings, not credit creation by a central bank. ”
– Ron Paul
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July 13, 2011 9:14am
jcuk

Even if the parents breed like rabbits and don’t speak english I am sure their children will and be around to do the work to look after all the retired folk from the baby boom. The introduction of different cultures has brought a freshness and useful diversity to NZ society over the past sixty years I have been here. Though I would hope that with a welfare state there would be less breeding than in their home countries where children are needed to look after you in your old age.
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July 13, 2011 9:17am
wreck1080

If labour go in and introduce CGT without reducing income tax to match then their ideas are bankrupt.

My income is already suffering without labour trotting in and taking more cash away from me.
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July 13, 2011 9:17am
mike tan

When the federal government spends more each year than it collects in tax revenues, it has three choices: It can raise taxes, print money, or borrow money. While these actions may benefit politicians, all three options are bad for average Americans.”
– Ron Paul

“You wanna get rid of drug crime in this country? Fine, let’s just get rid of all the drug laws.”
– Ron Paul
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July 13, 2011 9:20am
rouppe

And we think we have problems….

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10738127
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July 13, 2011 9:21am
Murray

“Great. What’s the bet that over 700 of them can’t speak English, are on the dole from the day they arrive, have no intention of integrating & breed like rats?”

You mean like the “people of the land” nasska. Should fit right in with them.
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July 13, 2011 9:25am
tom hunter

Far from being the end of the world I’m beginning to like the idea of this debt limit in the USA and wonder what this analysis would be if we applied it to NZ:

…The BPC study found that the United States is likely to hit the debt limit sometime between August 2 and August 9. “It’s a 44 percent overnight cut in federal spending” if Congress hits the debt limit, [BPC’s Jay] Powell said. The BPC study projects there will be $172 billion in federal revenues in August and $307 billion in authorized expenditures.

That means there’s enough money to pay for, say, interest on the debt ($29 billion), Social Security ($49.2 billion), Medicare and Medicaid ($50 billion), active duty troop pay ($2.9 billion), veterans affairs programs ($2.9 billion).

Not bad: covers all the basics with cash to spare:

That leaves you with about $39 billion to fund (or not fund) the following:

Defense vendors ($31.7 billion)

IRS refunds ($3.9 billion)

Food stamps and welfare ($9.3 billion)

Unemployment insurance benefits ($12.8 billion)

Department of Education ($20.2 billion)

Housing and Urban Development ($6.7 billion)

Other spending, such as Departments of Justice, Labor, Commerce, EPA, HHS ($73.6 billion)

The decision to prioritize payments would fall on the Treasury department,

My god. We’d be asking politicians and their technocrats to pick and choose?
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July 13, 2011 9:28am
flipper

MOLD TO ESPINER: Do U want a “:scoop” ?
ESPINER TO MOLD:
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July 13, 2011 9:31am
Dave Mann

@jcuk: Yes…. and on the question of refugees on the dole, we run a welfare system where everyday New Zealanders can grow up not really feeling like getting a job and the state seems to just allow then to get away with it for the whole of their lives. Surely a person who has (for example) seen family members murdered or raped or has been a genuine victim of a war or repression deserves at least as much help as one of our ‘own’ beneficiaries? The problem is not with refugees, it is with our welfare system.
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July 13, 2011 9:31am
flipper

The Spinmeister Gazette:

MOLD TO ESPINDER: :Pssst … Do U want a “scoop” ?
ESPINER TO MOLD: Dah…Yep
MOLD TO ESPINDER: Our polling says Kiwis would prefer a CGT over Government asset sales.
ESPINER TO MOLD: You’re kidding….
MOLD TO ESPINDER: Nope. We asked; they spoke.
ESPINDER TO MOLD: Great. I’ll use it on Breakfast, Wednesday. It will make me look good.
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July 13, 2011 9:39am
Murray

Its New Zealands job to care for the world Dave? Why. Also why at the expense of our own?

The New Zeland governments FIRST responsibilites are to New Zealand and New Zealand interests. Secondary considerations are a very distant second.
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July 13, 2011 9:40am
wreck1080

@miketan:
“When the federal government spends more each year than it collects in tax revenues, it has three choices: It can raise taxes, print money, or borrow money. While these actions may benefit politicians, all three options are bad for average Americans.”
– Ron Paul”

Ummm,option 4: reduce spending—seems the most obvious option to me.
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July 13, 2011 9:41am
Luc Hansen

Murray, your ignorance and racism is appalling.

I would lay odds that refugees and asylum seekers are under-represented in the welfare rolls, not to mention the crime rates, and their children are over-represented in the high achievers ranks in the education system.

And I speak from the point of view of personal experience.

News of the World is kiddie stuff compared to your bile.
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July 13, 2011 9:44am
Murray

Reduce spending? That aint the socialist way wreck. What are you, some kind of “capitalist” or something?
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July 13, 2011 9:45am
Murray

I’m ignorant based on your guesses Luc?

You “lay odds” and I’ll stick to my research stats you stupid commie dickwad. I don’t speak from personal fucking guess work. BTW my “racism” doesn’t exist, we Maori get a free pass in case you hadn’t heard you stupid white mofo.
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July 13, 2011 9:48am
nasska

As usual, whenever one raises an objection to NZ being overrun with workshy no hopers someone pops up to ask for the hard evidence to prove the allegation. Now under normal circumstances that sounds fair enough. Problem is that the socialist arseholes who back all this feelgood spendup of other peoples money make sure that it is impossible to call them to account.

So far I have wasted about an hour trying to find any statistics of the work accomplishments of our 750 refugees invited to share our nation each year. The Web is awash with reports on the difficulty such people have in finding work but as far as I can ascertain no statistics giving percentages of such people in permanent employment are kept.

Probably just another case of ensuring that no criticism is possible by ensuring that no evidence is kept.

Do others feel that only information helpful to the cause is made available?
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July 13, 2011 9:50am
Luc Hansen

nasska

Try the official avenues. DPF could guide you through it. Sounds like it would be a project worth undertaking.

Murray, the quality of your prose and the depth of your intelligence is truly stunning.

But wait! There’s more!

I see this boat of terrifying people is 7000kms adrift of our shores, yet panic rules the land.

Hot on the heels of Paul Holmes and many, many others shaking in their boots (oozing brown stuff, too?) at the thought of sighting a woman wearing a veil!

Ah, whatever happened to The Good, Keen Man?
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July 13, 2011 10:00am
mike tan

Obama explains his proposed budget to a class of 2nd graders:

“You have a pie, you see. You cut it in half.
“This half is for foreign policy – things like the military, and our expensive foreign wars, and foreign aid to other governments.
” And this half is for the government, to pay our bills, and pay our workers.
“And this half is for the elderly, and people on welfare & food stamps.
“And this half is to make sure every American has medical care.
“And this half is for the banks, to pay interest on our debt and bail them out if they fail, and buy car companies.
“And this half…….”
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July 13, 2011 10:00am
mikenmild

nasska

Nice to see you tried some research. Not finding any evidence of your assertions didn’t lead to you changing your mind though?
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July 13, 2011 10:02am
side show bob

See Barry plans to hold up social security cheques if the dept limit isn’t raised. Typical politician, using the most vulnerable as pawns in a game of blackmail. Why doesn’t he hold up the pay chegues for government, everyone would cheer, no one would give a toss but maybe something would get sorted.
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July 13, 2011 10:05am
Dave Mann

@nasska: Hahaha… Thats what I found too! I was looking for a killer statistic with which to blow you out of the water and all I found was a lot of sociological jargon-speak which says nothing of any substance.

So, in the absence of any actual data shall we just resort to ad hominem attacks and name calling like many commenters do? Let me see… umm… Hitler! Thats a good one… I’ll bring up the holocaust, thats always a good standby 🙂
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July 13, 2011 10:06am
nasska

mikenmild

The fact that your socialist mates make sure that statistics to prove or disprove what I’m suggesting are not kept doesn’t make the question go away.
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July 13, 2011 10:08am
RightNow

Luc: you ‘lay odds’ that “refugees and asylum seekers are under-represented in the welfare rolls, not to mention the crime rates, and their children are over-represented in the high achievers ranks in the education system.”

What are the odds you’re offering? I’ll take your bet if you offer 2:1 odds or better. Shall we say $100? I win you pay me $200, I lose I pay you $100
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July 13, 2011 10:11am
nasska

Dave Mann

Interesting that you were stonewalled in the same way but like you I’ll, as far as I can, stick to playing the ball rather than the man.
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July 13, 2011 10:11am
Dave Mann

@luc: could you help me out here please? Attack nasska and murray for me. Call then something really nasty and spit on them while I go and have a coffee. Thanks.
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July 13, 2011 10:13am
tom hunter

Not finding any evidence of your assertions didn’t lead to you changing your mind though?

Shorter mikenmild debate framing:

I look up to Luc’s anecdotal evidence. But I look down on naaska’s anecdotal evidence.

I am middle class

I know my place.

[bonus points to whoever knows the reference.]
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July 13, 2011 10:19am
Scott Chris

Murray (7,924) Says:
July 13th, 2011 at 9:48 am
“I’m ignorant based on your guesses Luc?”

Lol. I doubt that guesswork is required.
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July 13, 2011 10:24am
Put it away

Here’s a stat that should be easy to check: what percentage of people who’ve attempted armed hijacking of a plane in new zealand have been refugees?
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July 13, 2011 10:32am
RightNow

tom, are you casting Luc in a Cleese role again? (Luc has previously played Cleese’s role in the Argument sketch)
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July 13, 2011 10:32am
tom hunter

Luc reminds me more of the Norwegian Blue – or at least his causes do.
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July 13, 2011 10:36am
All_on_Red

AUSTRALIANS have given the carbon tax the thumbs down, with 68 per cent saying it will leave them worse off and 63 per cent calling for Julia Gillard to bring on an early election.
The exclusive Galaxy Poll for the Herald Sun – the first major survey since the release of the carbon tax package on Sunday – also found 60 per cent of voters opposed the tax, 29 per cent were in favour and 11 per cent undecided.
Only 10 per cent of voters said they would be better off and only 28 per cent believe Ms Gillard has a mandate to introduce the tax without holding another election.
The poll reveals 62 per cent of people think the Greens, who negotiated the package with Labor and the independents, have too much influence over the Government…
It finds 81 per cent believe the carbon tax will have little or no impact on the environment and 67 per cent believe it will be bad for the economy …
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/

Here are some rather awkward questions for Ms Gillard, and indeed for anyone else who thinks a Tax will reduce CO2 Emissions
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/commentary/please-explain-prime-minister/story-e6frgd0x-1226093406422
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July 13, 2011 10:54am
Akaroa

Hey, Tom Hunter at 1019.

The two Ronnies plus – I theenk – Cleese, all in a line holding out their arms?

NZ$ please!
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July 13, 2011 10:58am
Falafulu Fisi

By Bob Jones (1996 article re-posted as a guest post at Not PC).

Stateless Standards

Quote from Bob:
As I explained in my book, true market believers recognise that all economic laws impede the market’s functioning** and ultimately result in the opposite outcome of that intended.

Can Mikenmild and the lefties here, argue against what Bob Jones said in his article? As I have said before on this blog, that market is a complex system. Making more laws, diminishes the ability of the system to self-organize itself.
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July 13, 2011 11:03am
publicwatchdog

Hi Kiwibloggers! 🙂

FYI

Today, Wednesday 13 July 2011, before 5pm, I will apply at the Auckland High Court for orders:

“1.1 Revoking, lifting or ruling as legally invalid, the alleged suppression order of Winkelmann J, which purports to prevent the New Zealand public, and the world at large, from knowing about her Honour’s Judgment granted that same day in 18 criminal prosecutions (CRI2007-085-7842, CRI2007-085-7843, CRI2007-085-7840, CRI2008-004-9108, CRI2008-004-20747, CRI2007-004-23065, CRI2008-004-20022, CRI2007-004-23068, CRI2007-004-23069, CRI2008-004-20748, CRI2007-004-23066, CRI2008-004-20045, CRI2007-063-4445, CRI2007-063-4441, CRI2007-054-4999, CRI2007-063-4472, CRI2008-070-1415, CRI2008-404-342), known collectively as “the Operation 8 prosecutions”.

1.2 Revoking, lifting or ruling as legally invalid, the Minute of Winkelmann J dated 21 December 2010; to the extent that “Minute” intends to – or results in- the New Zealand public or world at large from knowing relevant facts in the prosecution or reasons for suppressing all of Her Honour’s 9 December 2010 Judgment in the Operation 8 prosecution, including such basic and important information as the fact of their indictment on charges.1

(1 Refer to paragraph [1] of the Judgment of Winkelmann J dated 9 December 2010, “Operation 9 prosecutions”) ”

The ‘legislative basis’ upon which I am relying, in order to file this application, lies in CIV 2010 – 404 – 8559 Solicitor-General of New Zealand v Vincent Ross Siemer , Judgment of MacKenzie and Simon France JJ, 4 July 2011.

VINCE SIEMER Solicitor General v Siemer judgment(3) CIV 2010 404 8559 HC Ak 4 July 2011 MacKenzie & Simon France JJ 12 July 2011

[41] ……..
It is open to persons including Mr Siemer to apply to the Court for a variation of the order, or for its removal, but until that is successfully done the order is binding.”

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

I have been advised by email by the Manager of the Criminal jurisdiction of the Auckland High Court, that :

“Having discussed the jurisdiction issue with my colleagues, I can confirm that the view is that the application should be with the Civil jurisdiction.”

What is arguably patently ridiculous in this situation is that this latest judgment, which is not ‘suppressed’, contains details of the judgment of Winkelmann J which was suppressed.

Vince Siemer is now facing imprisonment for ‘contempt’ for ‘disseminating details of Judge Winkelmann’s decision – which I too have disseminated. I too, am upholding the public’s lawful right to know Judge’s decisions and their reasons for those decisions.

Am I too going to face imprisonment for ‘contempt’ of court?

What ‘LAW’ have I, or Vince Siemer (www.kiwisfirst.co.nz) ever broken?

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1985/0120/latest/DLM78862.html?search=ts_act_Criminal+Justice+Act+1985_resel&p=1#DLM78862

KEY GROUNDS UPON WHICH THIS APPLICATION IS BASED:

“[4] There is no basis in law to suppress a court judgment resulting from a criminal prosecution. Such judicial powers are limited to the evidence adduced, the submissions made, publication of the name of any witness or witnesses, or any name or particulars likely to lead to the identification of the witness or witnesses under s 138 of the Criminal Justice Act 1985.

4. s 138 of the Criminal Justice Act 1985 states:

138 Power to clear court and forbid report of proceedings

…….

(5) The powers conferred by this section to make orders of any kind described in subsection (2) are in substitution for any such powers that a court may have had under any inherent jurisdiction or any rule of law; and no court shall have power to make any order of any such kind except in accordance with this section or any other enactment.

5. It is a violation of natural justice to attempt to enforce a suppression order, with criminal penalties, against the public at large (i.e. not parties to the proceeding) for commenting on, or disseminating, a judgment, without the right to be heard, in a free and democratic society.

6. Similarly, it is an unreasonable restriction on the statutory right of freedom of expression guaranteed under the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 for New Zealand citizens to face prosecution and be threatened with loss of their liberty simply for disseminating or commenting on any court judgment – particularly cases pertaining to the ongoing “Operation 8 prosecutions”, which have already been the subject of significant public interest.

7. The order is in direct conflict with the principles of open and transparent justice which have been the hallmark of an honourable and just court system in every egalitarian society, because it effectively makes the judgment secret and unavailable to public scrutiny.

8. The subject suppression order violates a broader interest – that of significant public interest – and the conflict of Justice Winkelmann’s alleged suppression order against this broader public interest has been confirmed in correspondence between the Crown Prosecutor, Mr Burns, in the Operation 8 prosecutions and the High Court in which the alleged suppression order originates.

9. It is relevant to the grounds of this application that Justice Winkelmann gave no reasons for the alleged suppression order, if indeed it was Her Honour’s order, for concealing the public court judgment from the New Zealand public and the world at large. Justice cannot ‘be done or be seen to be done’, if the judgment of ‘what was done’, and ‘why it was done’ is deliberately hidden from the public.

11. The risk to personal liberty against citizens of New Zealand is unacceptable, if the alleged suppression order is allowed to stand. The threat to personal liberty is evident by the recent prosecution of the legal news website publisher Vince Siemer, who is currently facing imprisonment as a sole and direct result of publishing this public court judgment. 2

12. As the applicant has disseminated details regarding this 9 December 2010 judgment to the public, as well as engaged in commentary regarding it, she faces potential prosecution by the State unless the court suppression order – if it is determined by this Honourable Court to be an actual order – is allowed to stand.

13. If Justice Winkelmann’s court ‘order’ has not been based upon the ‘rule of law’, then the public cannot be expected to respect it. If Judges don’t themselves follow the ‘rule of law,’ by basing their decisions upon the ‘rule of law’ – then they are not ‘setting an example’ to citizens which either safeguards the administration of justice, or enhances public confidence in the New Zealand judiciary.

14. The Applicant holds that the real risk to the administration of justice stems from this court ‘order’ which has not been based on the ‘rule of law’ – but has been ‘made up’ by Justice Winkelmann, then enforced by the Solicitor-General David Collins QC, in such an discriminatory and arbitrary way as to constitute an abuse of power which cannot be justified in a free and democratic society.”

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Full copies of correspondence, including the wording of the ‘Application for Order’ is available on http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

Cheers!
Penny Bright
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July 13, 2011 11:13am
mikenmild

Falafulu

You have me confused with a lefty. Sorry.
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July 13, 2011 11:14am
Falafulu Fisi

Mikenmild said…
You have me confused with a lefty. Sorry

Someone like you who believes that the rights of the individual rested with the desire of the masses (govt or population) is socialism at its roots. That is, the individual is subjected to the wishes of the majority. Isn’t that your philosophy Mike?
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July 13, 2011 11:17am
redeye

Penny, can’t you just post a link?
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July 13, 2011 11:22am
DavidR

Last Sunday’s clean-up didn’t work then? She’s back! (@ 11.13am).
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July 13, 2011 11:22am
tom hunter

Akaroa – Rightnow already beat you to it.
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July 13, 2011 11:23am
AlphaKiwi

Here’s a suggestion for the Green Party to implement or support if another Party suggests it as a work scheme for the long term unemployed.

Make healthy, long term unemployed people pick out all the recyclable stuff from the rubbish tips around the country. Pay them $15 per hour.

Would they think this is worthwhile because it’s good for the environment or too degrading too get long term unemployed to do this, even for a reasonable wage?

If it’s the former, they’re a true Green party, if it’s the latter they’re a Red party masquerading as Green.
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July 13, 2011 11:24am
RightNow

Let me see if I’ve got this right. A CGT in NZ would be designed to change investor behaviour away from property and into company shares.

“Almost $25 billion was wiped from the Australian sharemarket in the worst trading day this month, based on the drop in the All Ordinaries Index to its weakest finish since June 29.”
http://m.smh.com.au/business/market-rattled-by-carbon-tax-debt-woes-20110712-1hc6h.html

If Labour get back into power in NZ the economy will be ruined.
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July 13, 2011 11:30am
alex Masterley

redeye,
She did but it was buried in dross.
The answer to Penny’s question is we live in hope.
Penny should have a look at Amery v Marfart*. It will be of some assistance, as Colin A unsuccessfully attempted to have suppression orders in the Rainbow Warrior case set aside. the general comments of the court may (or may not) assist.
I can’t be bothered with the citation but the case is in the NZLRs.
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July 13, 2011 11:44am
Ryan Sproull

Can Mikenmild and the lefties here, argue against what Bob Jones said in his article? As I have said before on this blog, that market is a complex system. Making more laws, diminishes the ability of the system to self-organize itself.

I’m a leftie. Bob’s points look fine to me.
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July 13, 2011 11:47am
tom hunter

I’m a leftie. Bob’s points look fine to me.

You’re a Libertarian Socialist (actually I hate that term, way too oxymoronic), which means I not only respect the points that you argue, I respect where they come from, even as I might disagree with them.

What I don’t respect are these people who claim that they’re neither “right” nor “left” but supposedly proclaiming the “common-sense”, “middle-of-the-road”, “pragmatic” path that in NZ has long been an excuse for refusing to think about any ideas outside the mainstream, let alone trying them.

Several decades ago that was actually one of the war cries of the New Left, as they sought to shatter the comfortable, “smug”, bourgeois lifestyle of NZ.

As it turned out of course they actually adored some aspects of that life that had been built by the very people they looked down on (and yes, that despised group very much included the old guard of the Labour Party). The Railways Department, the MOW, the Telephone Department (it might as well have been called that), the State Services Commission.

They loved those things so much that they’d have them back in a heartbeat if they could. Like some economic version of Pat Bartlett, they cast their eyes towards that rose-coloured past, desperate to push back the shroud that fell on the end of the golden weather.

Those people were not really “leftists”: they were hedonists who thought they could loosen the controls over NZ society without damaging all the institutions that could only live with such controls. They thought they could start a revolution and ride it only so far.

But in one other respect they’re correct when they claim they’re neither “left” nor “right”: in terms of philosophical grounding and arguing what must arise from such debates, let alone implementing those outcomes and living with the results, they’re still in the middle – stranded in the clueless populism of what’s gummit going to do about it?.
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July 13, 2011 12:12pm
redeye

What I don’t respect are these people who claim that they’re neither “right” nor “left” but supposedly proclaiming the “common-sense”, “middle-of-the-road”, “pragmatic” path that in NZ has long been an excuse for refusing to think about any ideas outside the mainstream, let alone trying them.

Respect or not it is these people (us) that determine government. It is these people (us) that predominantly policies are made for. Parties can rely on votes from the lefties and the righties but not us. And it’s us that can look at individual policies without a predetermined viewpoints.
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July 13, 2011 12:23pm
Ryan Sproull

It may be the middle who determine government, but I think it’s a mistake to believe that middle-of-the-road swing votes have fewer predetermined viewpoints than the people at the more predictable extremities. I’d go so far as to suggest that the people in the middle have so many predetermined viewpoints that Labour and National can reliably use very similar tactics in trying to get a predictable response from those voters.
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July 13, 2011 12:39pm
Chthoniid

Had a bit of a rant this morning about the state of NZ conservation policy on Sciblogs
http://sciblogs.co.nz/chthonic-wildlife-ramblings/2011/07/13/im-in-a-questioning-mood/

Covers some politics and economics ground. So it might be worth a visit for some of you.
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July 13, 2011 1:02pm
RRM

I don’t know if I share Bob Jones’ optimism that a free market approach to quality standards will lead to better standards at lower cost. (Or his lackadaisical attitude to the few punters who he expects to die of food poisoning while the system is in its bedding-in period… ) It sounds like a recipe for an utterly corrupt mafia state like Russia if you ask me, where those with economic power are answerable to no-one.

And it’s a bit rich to complain about how ineffective the public regulations are, when you are one of the people not bothering to comply with them. Perhaps “Sir” Bob could start leading us down the road to better standards by ensuring that all of the emergency exits from plant rooms in his own buildings are in order, and able to be opened by someone on the inside as they should be…?
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July 13, 2011 1:19pm
Put it away

Loons of a feather flock together eh penny?
TL;DR
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July 13, 2011 1:30pm
mikenmild

Chthoniid

Good post. Until we see our conservation estate as a resource rather than a cost we can’t expect much change. The costs of protecting what we have spiral upwards well out of our ability to pay. The answer surely lies in the balance between protection and exploitation. Not every instance of exploitation of a resource will entail loss of protection. There are many examples where we ignore the potential for wining solutions.
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July 13, 2011 1:33pm
Pete George

What I don’t respect are these people who claim that they’re neither “right” nor “left” but supposedly proclaiming the “common-sense”, “middle-of-the-road”, “pragmatic” path that in NZ has long been an excuse for refusing to think about any ideas outside the mainstream, let alone trying them.

I guess if you don’t understand you don’t understand.

Most people have mostly middlish views on most things. Most supported politics in New Zealand is mostly middlish. But that doesn’t mean sticking to the middle, we have strong social and capital practices and hardly anyone would eliminate all of one or the other.

I’ve been accused of being everything from hard right to sitting on the middle fence to hard left. These accusations are relative to the view of the person making them and are usually a form of abuse rather than based on anything sensible.

Using common sense and being pragmatic does not mean sticking to a middle course on everything.

It means judging issues on facts and on their merits. That can result in sometimes choosing a rightish solution, sometimes choosing a leftish solution and sometimes choosing a more centrish solution.

It just means ditching silly labels that otherwise straightjacket people into narrow views.
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July 13, 2011 1:36pm
Longknives

I just got back from a lovely and refreshing overseas holiday. Did I miss anything? I see the fact that I had to scroll down for twelve minutes to get to the bottom of the Blog would suggest Penny is still around….
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July 13, 2011 1:43pm
Pete George

Longknives – if you’ve got time it’s worth looking through the posts and comments Saturday to Monday (no Penny) – especially anything to do with Act and Ansell.
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July 13, 2011 1:52pm
tom hunter

Heh. I laughed reading this because I’d forgotten the comments by former GOP congressman Scarborough about the TV morning show he co-hosts in the US:

Given MSNBC’s huge tilt to the Left — to the point where Joe Scarborough has to defend his show’s treatment of Obama by noting that Democrats have a 10:1 advantage on Morning Joe — O’Donnell’s hysterical reaction is, well, hysterical.

Keep this in mind the next time you hear Radio NZ’s US correspondent, Jack Hitt, describe Morning Joe as a sort of Republican oriented television show on MSNBC., or the next time you hear any commentary on the US from Hitt.
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July 13, 2011 1:57pm
side show bob

My educational standards are perhaps not as high as some here so can someone tell me what the hell is Penny on about or is she just demented?
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July 13, 2011 2:03pm
krazykiwi

SSB – no I can’t, and yes she is
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July 13, 2011 2:10pm
KevinH

What I don’t respect are these people who claim that they’re neither “right” nor “left” but supposedly proclaiming the “common-sense”, “middle-of-the-road”, “pragmatic” path that in NZ has long been an excuse for refusing to think about any ideas outside the mainstream, let alone trying them.

It’s not really a question of whether the fence sitters are undecided, in New Zealand we have a great tradition of leaving it to the last moment, or not voting at all.
The middle ground has to be engaged to take interest and to do that they need to incentivised, ie offering a bribe of some sort, because after all they are feckless.
Plus I positively loathe the expression “common sense approach” because it is usually subjective and entails the rest of us have to suck a kumara. In plain speak it means ” we are going to look after our pet minority group and dump on the rest.
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July 13, 2011 2:13pm
Chthoniid

@mikenmild

Good post. Until we see our conservation estate as a resource rather than a cost we can’t expect much change. The costs of protecting what we have spiral upwards well out of our ability to pay. The answer surely lies in the balance between protection and exploitation. Not every instance of exploitation of a resource will entail loss of protection. There are many examples where we ignore the potential for wining solutions.

Thanks- yes, that’s part of my motivation to try to shake things up a bit. Most of the time I don’t think the general public realises how little impact our efforts are having on preventing extinctions- and that policymakers are prepared to see that happen rather than abandon principle.
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July 13, 2011 2:20pm
Pete George

Kevin – do you prefer the far too common senseless approach?

There’s a distinct lack of common sense in a lot of the party policy we see, it’s too often against commonly held views and is senseless – and looks after their pet minority group and dumps on the rest.

Chthoniid – keep shaking and keep motivated, it’s going to take a sustained effort to make it change.
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July 13, 2011 2:20pm
kowtow

This am on TVNZ Morning they hosted 2 refugee advocates.

As NZ has signed a UN convention on refugees these people have “a right” to come here.Yep they have a right to come.

Here’s a thought for the AGW warmists at the UN like Ban Ki Howl at the Moon et al.

Get your finger out and deal with the real world of corrupt and oppressive govts (all of whom are hosted at the UN).
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July 13, 2011 2:27pm
tom hunter

As a classic example of government failure – and one that almost all lefties could probably get on board with, since the program originated with the Bush administration – read this hilarious article about the sad stupidities of the US Transport Security Administration (TSA):

During this pat-down, the TSA agent, while running his hands carefully up my leg, came across a small bump near my left knee. He asked me to describe the nature of the bump. I told him it was a benign cyst. (I realize I’m oversharing, but there’s a purpose to this story.) The agent called over a supervisor. The supervisor questioned me about the cyst. The supervisor and the agent then discussed the cyst. This has happened to me at two other checkpoints.

My dermatologist is much less interested in this cyst than is the Department of Homeland Security. Eventually, the supervisor ruled that the cyst (or, I should say, “alleged cyst”) was too small to be a threat to a commercial airliner.

I rather liked this quote in reference to this story – one might call it The Bob Jones Solution:

Abolish the TSA. Tell passengers “If someone tries to hijack the plane, beat the crap out of him.” We’d be better off.

Apply across government services.
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July 13, 2011 2:32pm
publicwatchdog

Some just whine, moan and blog about ‘injustices’, or what upsets them.
A few of us actually get off our butts and do something about it.

In my considered opinion – if you don’t know your rights – you haven’t got any.
If you don’t defend the rights you are supposed to have – you lose them.

Some of you more ignorant folk may not be aware that in this country – New Zealand – we are supposed to have a LAWFUL right to ‘freedom of expression’.

We are also supposed to have a LAWFUL right to ‘open justice’ – in that the rulings of a Judge and their reasons for making that judgment are supposed to be available to the public, and not suppressed.

Some of you may not think these rights are worth fighting for – that’s your call.

But there are a very small number of people have the guts to step up to the plate, and risk imprisonment in order to help defend YOUR rights.

Perhaps those of you who don’t have the courage to make such a stand, try to compensate for your inadequacies in that department by slagging off and bad-mouthing those of us who do.

So be it.

By your ACTIONS you shall be known.

Whoever you Anonymous/Gutless ones who don’t actually put your names to your posts actually are?

(Meant of course in a caring, and understanding way 🙂

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
(PS: If you DO support ‘freedom of expression’ I suggest you check out Vince Siemer’s website: http://www.kiwisfirst.co.nz)
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July 13, 2011 2:36pm
wreck1080

Sue Bradford really does make me sick.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10738221

……..

A senior United Kingdom minister will face angry protestors during a visit to New Zealand next week.

Auckland Action Against Poverty announced today it would picket British welfare minister Iain Duncan Smith during a dinner hosted by Maxim Institute next week.

Spokeswoman Sue Bradford said welfare reforms spearheaded by Mr Duncan Smith had hurt beneficiaries in Britain.

“Iain Duncan Smith has presided over horrendously damaging reforms to the UK welfare system, including the removal of hundreds of thousands of people from invalids’ benefits and increased privatisation of services.

This really is none of her business and does she not realise the UK is broke? They have no money so are printing it.
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July 13, 2011 2:43pm
Rich Prick

Penny, whatever.
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July 13, 2011 2:47pm
tom hunter

But just in case you’re keen on blaming government, take a look at this little exercise in free speech testing recently conducted in my old second-home. People on the sidewalk were invited to select which books they would ban if they could – at a book fair.

The leading book for banishment was Sarah Palin’s Going Rogue, selected by 36% of the “voters”. Mein Kampf was fourth at 0.5%, which causes the writer to ask:

…does it prove that they’re only willing to ban books that pose some sort of political threat to them right now?

As the article notes rather depressingly:

Believe it or not, First Amendment issues don’t poll as well as you might think. A 2005 survey of high school kids found more than one in three thought the text of the amendment goes “too far” in protecting civil liberties, with only 83 percent saying that people should be allowed to express unpopular views.
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July 13, 2011 2:48pm
immigant

Penny

“By your ACTIONS you shall be known.”

So you’re an unemplyed piece of human floatsam. Get a job instead of defending my rights.
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July 13, 2011 2:50pm
Pete George

with only 83 percent saying that people should be allowed to express unpopular views.

That’s probably theoretical. Would the percent would be anywhere near that high in practice on blogs?
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July 13, 2011 3:07pm
ciaron

But Pete, there is a definite difference between free speech in say; the public square (where I for one feel that people should be free to make fools of themselves), and free speech on a blog, (which is more akin to one’s home) where the threshold is at the discretion of the owner, and rightly so.
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July 13, 2011 3:40pm
grumpyoldhori

side show bob come on, of course Obama is going to use old grannies starving as a weapon against the GOP.
He is a politician, all politicians are self serving, it is a pity people on both the right and the left who are not politicians do not remember that.
But besides the old grannies he will also stop paying the US military, nice thought, some poor bloody grunt is being shot at while his family are at the soup kitchens.

But always remember, the first to be paid are politicians on both sides of any government.
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July 13, 2011 3:54pm
Hurf Durf

John Minto writing an opinion piece in the Hooerald? Really?

Still, I suppose with Johann Hari’s recent discrediting they needed someone to fill the hole and they couldn’t just republish fragments from Mao’s Little Red Book.
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July 13, 2011 4:19pm
Ender

I just want to say that Penny is a douche bag and I find her posts painful to read. I also feel like I’ve lost time from my life for no good reason after I have read them.
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July 13, 2011 4:27pm
side show bob

Of course Grumpy I know of what you speak is all to true. Barry is becoming well known for scaring the horses, personally I hope they call his bluff this time. I remember the last time they wanted to raise the debt limit and watching the present news channels and their musings on the debt and should the limit be raised, could be reruns, word for word from the last crisis. I sometimes wonder if Barry isn’t playing for a different team and not a very nice one at that, oh well, time will tell.
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July 13, 2011 4:32pm
mikenmild

Ender

I’m sure you speak for many, many readers who have suffered through those posts. Ironically, by protesting about the alleged injustices of our courts, Penny is inflicting her own form of injustice on the innocent Kiwiblog community. I mean, what did we do to deserve that punishment?
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July 13, 2011 4:47pm
RightNow

Ender – I congratulate you on exercising your freedom of expression. Personally I just don’t read her crap any more.
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July 13, 2011 4:56pm
tom hunter

I know everybody has their favourite software applications, but in this case – unless you have some RIP-type of capability – you’re just going to have to move to FireFox in order to rid yourself of The Wise Woman.

Your scrolling finger will thank you.
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July 13, 2011 5:00pm
kiwisimplexity

A Pedo during extended supervision

http://kiwisimplexity.wordpress.com/
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July 13, 2011 5:21pm
nasska

The stormy weather we are experiencing makes me wonder even more if selling even part of our power generation & distribution companies is a good idea.

Over the past 48 hours my power has been off more than on. I am unfortunate enough to live in an area where the distribution set up is owned & maintained to a minimum standard by PowerCo. This I can do nothing about. Where I need my head examined is having Meridian as my supplier.

Reporting a fault is something I have great experience in since the power goes down about twice a month during winter. The procedure goes like this….ring Meridian & listen to ‘muzak’ for upward of 30minutes, answer Meridian’s half baked questions for 10 minutes, arrange to be home for the rest of the day in case someone needs access to my property, then wait for 4 to 12 hours for the fault to be fixed. Repeat up to four times a day until weather becomes fine.

All faults have to be reported to Meridian, who advise PowerCo, who advise the local contractors who have made most of their staff redundant to save money. It is hard to imagine why we used to moan about the inefficiencies of the old Power Board.

Once the system is sold overseas this sort of service will be the norm throughout NZ. Be cautious….during the last few days I’ve found myself considering that Communism couldn’t be any worse…..you too could look at Stalin & Chairman Mao in a new light after eating cold baked beans in the dark.
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July 13, 2011 6:00pm
Jimbob

Proof that Barry’s birth certificate is 100 % fake.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=296881
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July 13, 2011 6:39pm
Viking2

Well I hope Penny succeeds.
Her proposition re freedom of speech and this case freedom of information is correct. The problem here is we have Judge who has made ruling which would seem to be contrary to those principles, mainly it would seem to protect a well known citizen.
If there was nothing to hide then there would be no need for suppression.

So Good Luck Penny.
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July 13, 2011 6:44pm
wat dabney

“I don’t know if I share Bob Jones’ optimism that a free market approach to quality standards will lead to better standards at lower cost…It sounds like a recipe for an utterly corrupt mafia state like Russia if you ask me, where those with economic power are answerable to no-one.”

You have seriously misunderstood.
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July 13, 2011 6:48pm
nasska

You are driving along in your car on a wild, stormy night. You pass by a bus stop, and you see three people waiting for the bus:
1. An old lady who looks as if she is about to die.
2. An old friend who once saved your life.
3. The perfect partner you have been dreaming about.

Which one would you choose to offer a ride to, knowing that there could only be one passenger in your car. Think before you continue reading.

This is a moral/ethical dilemma that was once actually used as part of a job application. You could pick up the old lady, because she is going to die, and thus you should save her first; or you could take the old friend because he once saved your life, and this would be the perfect chance to pay him back. However, you may never be able to find your perfect dream lover again. The candidate who was hired (out of 200 applicants) had no trouble coming up with his answer.

WHAT DID HE SAY? He simply answered: “I would give the car keys to my old friend, and let him take the lady to the hospital. I would stay behind and wait for the bus with the woman of my dreams.”

Sometimes, we gain more if we are able to give up our stubborn thought limitations. Never forget to “Think Outside of the Box.”
However, the correct answer is to run the old lady over and put her out of her misery, shag the perfect partner against the bus shelter and drive off with the old friend to have a beer.
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July 13, 2011 6:50pm
Rodders

😀
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July 13, 2011 7:00pm
Viking2

the statewide campaign launched this week entitled “Everything I Do Is Wrong” is drawing criticism online for ads saying men are the real PMS sufferers as their wives and girlfriends behave strangely every month.

The campaign’s website has a colour-coded “current global PMS level,” a “video apology enhancer” and a “mistake verification system” wrapped around pictures of puzzled men. .
The board’s executive director, Steve James, says the internet, radio and billboard campaign is meant to encourage open conversations between men and women about an awkward subject.

Haha this ain’t in NZ. We just vilify the messenger.

The California Milk Processor Board wants to encourage men to buy more milk for their wives and girlfriends,

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10738220
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July 13, 2011 7:02pm
side show bob

Yes indeed Jimbob, Barry is without doubt an international man of mystery . His birth certificate is only the start of many unanswered questions. Along with holding numerous false social security numbers, links to gangland members, friends that have meet untimely ends, homosexual tendencies, numerous shady property deals, sealed educational documents and amazing family photos. If anyone could be called a Manchurian candidate Barry would be at the top of the pile
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July 13, 2011 7:03pm
side show bob

V2 Penny might have something worth while to say but I have a hard time comprehending what she is trying to say, guess I’m just slow. I find her writing style annoying, something like the mad whoar.
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July 13, 2011 7:11pm
publicwatchdog

Here we go Kiwibloggers – your favorite!

FACTS:

http://www.justice.govt.nz/media/media-information/media-guide-for-reporting-the-courts/6.-access-to-court-information/6.2-searches-and-search-rules

6.2 Searches and search rules

Access to court information is governed by various legislative provisions, as well as orders and directions set down by the court, such as:

High Court Rules (Judicature Act 1908)
Criminal Proceedings (Search of Court Records) Rules 1974
Criminal Proceedings (Search Fees) Regulations 1997
District Courts Rules 2009
District Courts Fees Regulations 2009
Family Courts Rules 2002
Family Courts Act 1980
Summary Proceedings Act 1957
Summary Proceedings Regulations 1958
Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act 2004.

Statutory provisions and name suppression orders may restrict the information that may be published. A judge may place restrictions on how you may use or publish information you have access to. They can also restrict access to certain documents such as victim impact statements and psychiatric reports.

Judges’ personal notes do not form part of the court record and are not available for search or inspection.

Everyone has access as of right to the formal court record which includes:

………….

a judgment or order or minute of the court given in a criminal proceeding including any record of the reasons given by the judge
……………..”

Gosh – so why is Vince Siemer facing imprisonment for ‘contempt’ of court for publishing Judge Winkelmann’s SUPPRESSED decision – when the Judge had NO LAWFUL RIGHT to suppress it in the first place?

Wouldn’t you think that if anyone should be expected to follow the LAW – it would be a JUDGE?

Especially the Chief High Court Judge?

Just asking……………

http://www.kiwisfirst.co.nz

PS: Cheers Viking2! 🙂

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
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July 13, 2011 7:12pm
publicwatchdog

Just take your time and read what I have to say carefully ‘Side Show Bob’ 🙂 If you make the effort – you may learn something that you weren’t aware of before?

Or else you could just moan, whinge and snipe at other Kiwibloggers, as seems to be ‘situation normal’ for so many of you?

(Meant of course, in a caring and (hopefully) constructively positive sort of way? 😉

Kind regards

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
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July 13, 2011 7:20pm
Elaycee

Oh shit, there goes the neighbourhood – again….

🙁
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July 13, 2011 7:20pm
reid

More on NI.

For those not aware, it’s not beyond the bounds of possibility Rupert and James could end up barred from running companies in both the US and UK on the grounds they are unfit.

The US is looking into allegations of payments for illegal activity, as well as the UK.

Cameron is completely distancing himself in every way from all taint, and damning them completely. The British PM, for his own survival, needs to hold them transparently and publicly to the fullest possible account.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2013027/News-World-Tony-Blair-tried-hush-phone-hacking-scandal.html

Over more than three decades, no one dared question the perversion of politics by and for Rupert Murdoch
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/10/rupert-murdoch-phone-hacking-cameron

Insider reveals: ‘PR men would think up a story and Rebekah’s Sun and News of the World would run it, word for word. Some were complete fiction ‘
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2013046/Rebekah-Brooks-Sun-News-World-run-fictional-stories-insider-claims.html

A growing stench of lies and cover-up
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-a-growing-stench-of-lies-and-coverup-2311669.html

News International knew hacking was widespread in 2007
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/press/news-international-knew-hacking-was-widespread-in-2007-2311629.html

Look you can see these people have an axe to grind but that belies the fact the politicians are completely and utterly forced to see this through. The BSkyB deal is dead, which puts paid to his plan to crush the BBC, which is good, I like the Beeb. But this could possibli as I said extend to sanctions at the top levels of NI and criminal charges at the lower levels. Certainly Rebekah may well wind up in prison.
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July 13, 2011 7:27pm
nasska

A young journalist looks up the old countryside to write an article for his newspaper, and comes across a small village of farmers.

He walks up to an old man, and explains him he is a journalist working on an article, and asks him if something significant had happened the last few weeks.
The old man replies: “Well, ’bout 2 weeks ago, my neighbour’s goat went missing. So all the men of the village searched the whole forest looking for it. After some hours, we finally found it, and each man had his turn to screw the goat!”

The journalist thinks his boss won’t really like this kind of news, so he says: “Hmm, that’s a nice story… But erm, but what’s the best thing that ever happened to you in this village?”
The old man thinks and says: “Well, ’bout 3 years ago, my other neighbour’s wife went missing. So all the men of the village searched the whole forest looking for her. After some hours, we finally found her, and each man had his turn to shag his beautiful wife!”

The journalist, stunned again, is getting hopeless, and then decides to give his article a melodramatic turn. He asks: “And what was the worst thing that has ever happened to you, here in this lovely village?”
The old man looks up and says: “Well, ’bout 4 months ago, I got lost in the forest…”
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July 13, 2011 7:30pm
Rodders

😀 😀
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July 13, 2011 7:32pm
Steve

Everybody

This is a story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody and Nobody.
There was this important job to be done, and Everybody was asked to do it. Everybody was sure Somebody would do it. Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it.
Somebody got angry about that, because it was Everybody’s job. Everybody thought Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn’t do it.
It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
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July 13, 2011 7:41pm
Mary Rose

Penny: couldn’t you just say: ‘I’m going to court to try to get (a) name suppression order(s) overturned in the case of…”

Rather than giving us 3,000 words of legal detail.

No one here cares if it’s “paragraph [1] of the Judgment of Winkelmann J dated 9 December 2010, “Operation 9 prosecutions”) ”
or paragraph (2) or paragraph (3c)….

We don’t need to be told your case in all its DETAIL either. Save that for the courts.

Just summarise it, please!
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July 13, 2011 7:45pm
Mary Rose

Penny – PS. It probably isn’t about NAME suppression, I realise. Trying to make the point that people see 100 lines of legal stuff and scroll straight past it. Because life’s too short.

I lifted the quote entirely at random, without reading a line.
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July 13, 2011 7:53pm

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