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June 21, 2011 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 21 June 2011

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Rick Rowling

Surely not

[edit – yep, was]
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June 21, 2011 8:41am
Elaycee

The Labour lapdogs won’t like the latest Roy Morgan Poll:

NEWS : Morgan Poll :
NEW ZEALAND NATIONAL-LED GOVERNMENT LEAD JUMPS
AND WOULD WIN EASILY – 59.5% – 40.5%

The latest New Zealand Roy Morgan Poll shows support for Prime Minister John Key’s National-led Government is at 59.5% (up 6% – the biggest lead since January 2011). Support for Key’s National Party is 53% (up 4%), the Maori Party 3% (up 0.5%), ACT NZ 3% (up 1.5%) and United Future 0.5% (unchanged).

Support for Opposition Parties is at 40.5% (down 6%) — Labour Party 30% (down 6%), Greens 7% (up 0.5%), New Zealand First 2.5% (unchanged), Progressive Party 0% (unchanged) and Others 1% (down 0.5%).

If a National Election were held today the National Party would easily be returned to Government.

Cue the excuses from the lefties…… 3, 2, 1….
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June 21, 2011 8:48am
Longknives

The NZ on Air/Music Commission ‘Gravy Train’ chugs on…
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10733472

Surely if these musicians were as phenomenally talented as the salivating NZ media makes out they could make their own way in the world through touring/record sales etc?? Like musicians from other countries have to??
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June 21, 2011 8:48am
slightlyrighty

Goff goes overseas……Labour goes up in the polls.

Goff returns……..

Welcome home, Phil.
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June 21, 2011 8:55am
Inventory2

Rod Emmerson has excelled himself this morning; the best political cartoonist by some distance IMHO

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2011/06/excellent-mr-emmerson.html
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June 21, 2011 8:57am
Pete George

Kronic seems to be an increasing issue, the ODT has it’s say:

Kronic: Pressure on retailers

Mounting public pressure and increased security problems are forcing some dairies to abandon selling Kronic, while others advertise they are not selling synthetic cannabinoids.

I have my say too: Kronic could be a good thing.

Emmerson and Roy Morgan don’t look so good for Labour.
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June 21, 2011 8:58am
Manolo

Bill would love it: http://entertainment.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/06/20/hillary-clintons-former-intern-sammie-spades-now-a-xxx-porn-star/?test=faces
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June 21, 2011 8:59am
joana

What is Horizon currently saying?
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June 21, 2011 9:04am
Inventory2

Who cares what Horizon is saying Joana? The Horizon poll has been commissioned by the Sunday Star-Times for one reason only; to sell newspapers.
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June 21, 2011 9:06am
mikenmild

Inventory2
Liked the cartoon. Tom Scott remains the best though; hopefully he’ll be back full-time before long.
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June 21, 2011 9:07am
Murray

OMG those evil Joooos are at again with their medieval supersistion and are having court ordered stonings of dogs!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13819764

As the BBC reports: “Dogs are often considered impure animals in traditional Judaism.”

However it eventuates that in fact the BBC ran with a story that they entirely failed to fact check which came from a far left Israeli “news” source and they added the bit about dogs being impure all by themselves. In fact that would be ISLAM you are thinking of and it is forbidden in Jewish law to mistreat animals. Stoming would be considered misstreatment. Unlike islam were stoning is in fact good enough for teenage girls.

The actuall story is that a dog wandered into a court and the judge had animal control colelct it http://eyecrazy.blogspot.com/2011/06/dog-blood-libel.html

But hell thats not goinjg to sell pappers is it. Congratulations to the BBC for perpetuating and spreading a new blood libel for the new milenium. You’re on the list.
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June 21, 2011 9:09am
tom hunter

Great article here about a US entrepreneur who builds custom-made cars in Utah and started it in a former MIG factory in Poland:

The company makes custom replicas, mostly of classic models from the ’60s. They make about two cars a week, one at a time, by hand, with parts they make themselves, in a nondescript shop on Provo’s west side, where they are neighbored by farms and railroad tracks.

“We are one of the few companies that actually makes cars,” he says. “Most of the car companies sub out a huge chunk of their work and assembly-line them. We make close to everything on the car, even the gauges. We didn’t like the gauges, so we made our own. We take flat pieces of aluminum and turn them into cars. We do our own metallurgy, our own heat treatment, all of it.”

I appreciated this part, given the MBA focus of today’s managers:

Kirkham established his company in a corner of the MiG factory (which he bought years later). He went to a family friend, Steve Oveson, for financing. “I had no business plan,” he recalls. “I told him I was going to make cool cars and people will buy them.” Oveson gave him his first loan of $10,000. The loan would eventually grow to $1 million. “I’ve often wondered why he believed in me,” says Kirkham. “He was my angel investor. I eventually paid him back with interest.”

There was also this:

When Kirkham visited the Polish MiG factory for the first time in 1995, the lights were off and the machines silent — there was not enough money to pay the electric bill. Each morning, thousands of men came to work, dressed in rags, and did nothing all day. They simply stood by their machines until it was time to go home. Kirkham was so moved by the experience that he took a photo of the darkened factory, only to have a guard point a machine gun at him, forbidding him from taking more photos.

Which naturally enough makes him part of the US Tea Party movement. But read the whole thing.
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June 21, 2011 9:10am
Put it away

The Religion of Peace…
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/asia/5169782/Kidnapped-girl-forced-to-wear-suicide-vest-police
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June 21, 2011 9:14am
mikenmild

Murray

I thought dogs wereconsidered unclean by Jews and Muslims. I see the BBC updated their story to inlcude the court’s denial.
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June 21, 2011 9:21am
Murray

Well then you would be mistaken between the concepts of impure and cruelty wouldn’t you mike. The BBC have not altered the essence of a story they are now aware is false. they are happy to perpetuate a lie.

As a major taxpayer funded news organisation their ethical standards are expected to be somewhat higher than a far left agiation organisation wouldn’t you think?

They did not fact check, they have run with a lie, their “correcting” as you put is to sneeringly announce that the claim has been denied. They are not only able to fact check and print the truth but they have a moral and elgal obligation to do so.
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June 21, 2011 9:30am
Longknives

Manolo- Re Sammie Spades:
“I was planning on becoming an attorney and then going into public office,” Spades told TMZ.com of her career before she changed plans and went on to star in “Bomb Ass White Booty 13,”

That is magnificent journalism!
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June 21, 2011 9:37am
mikenmild

Murray
Looking at your links, the BBC was incorrect in repeating this story. It seems the Israeli newspaper that published it originally has nowretracted the story. Rather than just saying the story had been denied, the BBC should say it has no basis.
I’m pretty sure Judaism and Islam have similar requirements to be kind to animals.
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June 21, 2011 9:40am
tom hunter

Actually this 2010 article in Time beats out even the BBC:

The truth? In the week that three Presidents, a King and their own Prime Minister gather at the White House to begin a fresh round of talks on peace between Israel and the Palestinians, the truth is, Israelis are no longer preoccupied with the matter. They’re otherwise engaged; they’re making money;

I cannot remember ever seeing, in a still notable magazine, such a blatant example of traditional Jew-baiting-hatred as this piece. Yet even as they acknowledge that the hate crimes against Jews are greater in number than those against Muslims, you can bet that neither the stats nor the Time piece will ever result in an article by John L. Esposito and Sheila B. Lalwani titled The reality of Judeophobia in America.
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June 21, 2011 9:43am
mikenmild

tom

The full sentence was:”They’re otherwise engaged; they’re making money; they’re enjoying the rays of late summer”. There were a lot of critical comments on this article, but I couldn’t find any making the case that this particular statement was anti-semitic. The overall tenor was that Israelis have moved on and don’t care about the peace process and are just content to get on with things. Judging from the comments that was a debatable line.
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June 21, 2011 10:00am
tom hunter

Historical context not so meaningful anymore?

So if the cartoonist who drew GW evolving into a bomb-dropping monkey suddenly re-discovers his concerns about a US president bombing yet another oil-producing, Arab country, and draws the cartoon again with Obama as the centrepiece, you won’t have a problem with it?

Excellent. Who says we’re not making progress against PC?
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June 21, 2011 10:11am
Ryan Sproull

I keep forgetting that Jewish stereotype until people point it out to me. The idea is that Jewish people are really greedy or something? Is it greedy or stingey? Stingey’s for Scottish people, isn’t it?
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June 21, 2011 10:17am
tom hunter

Well, there’s always this old joke about stereotypes:

The European version of heaven:
The British are the police, the Germans are the car mechanics, the French are the cooks, the Italians are the lovers and the Swiss run everything.

The European version of hell:
The British are the cooks, the Germans are the police, the French are the car mechanics, the Swiss are the lovers and the Italians run everything.
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June 21, 2011 10:21am
nasska

mikenmild

….”I’m pretty sure Judaism and Islam have similar requirements to be kind to animals.”……

It all depends on the species of animal. Under Islam whales, crocodiles & panda bears have it pretty good. If however the animal is a pig, a dog or a human female the kindness theory turns to custard.
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June 21, 2011 10:32am
mikenmild

There’s a good piece in Foreign Policy to explain Middle East politics, based on the old “you have two cows” jokes. Here’s a sample:
Iran: You have two cows. You interrogate them until they concede they are Zionist agents. You send their milk to southern Lebanon and Gaza, or render it into highly enriched cream. International sanctions prevent your milk from being bought on the open market.
Lebanon: You have two cows. Syria claims ownership over them. You take them abroad and start successful cattle farms in Africa, Australia, and Latin America. You send the proceeds back home so your relatives can afford cosmetic surgery and Mercedes-Benzes.
Iraq: You have three cows: one Sunni, one Shiite, and one Kurd. The first is milked by Saudi Arabia, the second by Iran, and the third smuggles its milk abroad. The United States picks up the manure.
Yemen: You have two cows. Feed them khat instead of grass and neglect to milk them. Watch them fight each other.
Palestine: You had two cows that were lost decades ago. Lament them.
Israel: You have two bulls. Pretend they are helpless calves.
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June 21, 2011 10:39am
Pete George

So if the cartoonist who drew GW evolving into a bomb-dropping monkey suddenly re-discovers his concerns about a US president bombing yet another oil-producing, Arab country

That is an interesting point. I know from my own feelings about various interventions that one’s perception is substantially flavoured by how “good” or justified one perceives the intervention.

I was generally against the Iraq intervention because it seemed to be mostly initiated from the outside of the country – and was a diversion from the supposed real issues of the time, ie Al Qaeda and Afghanistan. I wasn’t against seeing the end of Saddam.

I was generally for the Libyan intervention because it was supporting and protecting a substantial internal uprising.

But any war is bound to end up with “collateral damage”, no matter which side you are on.
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June 21, 2011 10:43am
starboard

Shells turn to increase fuel prices overnight..diesel now 1.50..always amazes me , the dollar dropped to .80 and sat there for 3 days…bang up goes the cost of juice…whereas when the dollar sat on .82 to .83 for a longer period of time at least 3 weeks..the price went UP AGAIN !! They should write a book and call it ” The fuel company bullshitters encyclopaedia of fuel price increase excuses”.
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June 21, 2011 11:26am
nasska

Starboard

I don’t know how the buggers do it. I was going to fill the ute on Sunday but I’d read that the NZ$ was stable & I’d be okay to wait a few days. Another $5 down the shitter.
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June 21, 2011 11:36am
tom hunter

… one’s perception is substantially flavoured by how “good” or justified one perceives the intervention.

One’s perception is also apparently heavily influenced by whether the US President concerned has a D or R after their name.

More importantly one’s public reaction (and the masses that can be dragged along with that into street protests) seems to balance on the same point, and tips between screeching outrage for a GOP administration to being mute for a Democrat.

Latest example being the public and media reaction to the news that Obama simply ignored one set of lawyers and selected his own to gain a opinion that the Libyan war was legal. It’s become almost too easy to ask the question of what the reaction would be had it been Bush pulling such a stunt, yet in the wake of Guantanamo Bay, trial by military commissions, renditions, the whole War Powers Act and so forth I still think it’s worth it to point out the incredible double standards of the mainstream left on this.

But in my case I learned that lesson long ago when I contrasted the reactions of left-wing acquaintances to the US failure to take down Saddam in 1991 compared to when they actually did so in 2003.
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June 21, 2011 11:39am
joana

Mikem
It is actually dog saliva which is considered ”haram” in islam. Tho several muslim leaders have liked dogs and kept them as pets. In areas where there is tension between muslim and non muslim communities , non muslims love to keep dogs as pets. Many muslims are frightened of dogs in a very superstitious way…Like everything in islam , the rules are made to be broken. The ideology tries to enforce absolutes on everyone but people are human and many reject these absolutes when they can..like all the men who change into western dress in aeroplane toilets so they can get sloshed on the way to London , the young girls who leave home covered head to toe , hijab etc then get changed into modern clothes and pile on the makeup in the toilets at the shopping centre…etc..etc.
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June 21, 2011 11:52am
wreck1080

Exchange rate is not the only determinant of petrol pump prices.

AA generally keep the fuel companies honest.

Lets see what they say.

The greek crisis seems to have pushed oil higher.
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June 21, 2011 11:59am
mikenmild

joana
I hadn’t heard of the saliva being particularly haraam. I think many Muslims might be frightened of dogs in the same way that many people in general are! As I understand it, Islam does not prohibit dogs, but endorses them as working dogs rather than pets.
I think it is a bit of a generalisation to say Islam tries to enforce absolutes on everyone. Like Christianity, the core beliefs of Islam are quite simple.
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June 21, 2011 12:07pm
starboard

AA sit in BP’s pocket so I dont have much faith in them anymore. The solution is so simple really. The public can drive this..refuse to buy fuel from BP for one month. If everyone did this you would see petrol prices drop at BP pretty quickly. But Kiwis are apathetic. They would rather moan and do nothing. Baaaaaaaa.
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June 21, 2011 12:15pm
joana

In my experience in Muslim countries , dogs are prohibited full stop..No idea re ”working” dogs. Muslims are far more scared of dogs than other people because they are brain washed from birth regarding them.
The Christianity I favour is far from simple..What are the core beliefs of islam?
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June 21, 2011 12:17pm
mikenmild

joana
I’m no expert on Islam, but I think it’s based on five ‘pillars’:
1. Accepting God and Muhammad as his prophet
2. Daily prayers
3. Fasting
4. Giving alms
5. Pilgrammage to Mecca
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June 21, 2011 12:31pm
starboard

“joana
I’m no expert on Islam, but I think it’s based on five ‘pillars’:
1. Accepting God and Muhammad as his prophet
2. Daily prayers
3. Fasting
4. Giving alms
5. Pilgrammage to Mecca”

Ya missed one..

6) Kill all non-believers.
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June 21, 2011 12:37pm
Mick Mac

I bred Rottweilers awhile ago and two of my customers were Muslim brothers, one a single teacher and the other a family with small children. they bought male dogs and they were kept outside in super kennels and they were well looked after though never were inside dogs. One of the hardest things was weeding out those who would mistreat them to “make them guard dogs”.

I remember the teacher telling me that if the dog had jumped up on him before he was going to Mosque he would have to go inside to change before going to prayers.
As an aside we kept a separate braai grid in a sakkie especially for him so if he came over at the weekend to visit we could braai his meat or chicken as our grids weren’t halal because of the pork we cooked on them. Whereas our Jewish friends said that the flames made the grid Kosher so it didn’t matter just not cook the sparer ibs at the same time as their meat!
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June 21, 2011 12:44pm
Mick Mac

Starboard please you misrepresent Muslims everywhere.
For the people of the book and Zoastrans you can become a Dhimmi.
Then they let you live, but make you pay a poll tax (jeyzra), abuse your women and give you many restrictions on how you may live, some of them insulting to your dignity to reinforce that they didn’t kill you 🙂

Mikenmild – do you know why they treat Dhimmis like that?
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June 21, 2011 12:47pm
starboard

revolting culture Mick Mac…Ive travelled extensively and Ive never ever seen a happy looking towel head anywhere.
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June 21, 2011 12:52pm
Elaycee

@starboard – Depends, of course on whether the person is Sunni or Shi’a (who follow seven pillars including that of jihad).

“Jihad” (Struggle): The definition of jihad is controversial as it has two meanings: “the Greater Struggle” and the “The Lesser Struggle”, the latter of which means a confrontation with the enemies of the faith.

Enjoy your lunch…..
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June 21, 2011 12:57pm
mikenmild

Mick Mac

I though Dhimmi was aconcept of protection. Originally applied to ‘people of the Book’ (Jews and Christians), who a free to live in Muslim communities and enjoy a protected status so long as they don’t proselytise.
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June 21, 2011 12:57pm
Mick Mac

Starboard my Muslim friends in RSA were happy in the main apart from the discrimination of apartheid, but then they were small minorities in a larger community. I can’t get over the fact that apart from the so called golden age of islamic maths, most of the Islamic countries perform worse than so called Christian (historical) ones.

This link should be a good primer to the heart of Islam for mikenmild if he so wishes.
http://www.dhimmitude.org/archive/by_lecture_10oct2002.html
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June 21, 2011 1:00pm
calendar girl

tom hunter @ 11.39: “One’s perception is also apparently heavily influenced by whether the US President concerned has a D or R after their name.”

Lol, Tom! Skilfully skewered.
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June 21, 2011 1:02pm
Mick Mac

No Mikenmild, that’s the Muslim apologist slant on Dhimmitude.
read the link and if you are really interested I’ll post a link to Islamic reference as to the aim of Dhimitude.

Incidently, remember the Arminian massecre of +1million men women and children around the first world war?
That was because the rebelled and threw off the yoke of dhimmitude and in the eyes of their Muslim overlords broke the agreement and jihad could continue.
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June 21, 2011 1:03pm
mikenmild

Mick Mac
That was an interesting article, thanks. All in all, it might have been better to be conquered by Muslims that by almost any other people in history. Re the Armenians, I thought this was more of a case of the ethnic break up of the Ottoman Empire. The Armenians had been encouraged by the lessened restriction on them during the 19th century and began looking to Russia as an ally. With Turkey at war with Russia, the Armenians got treated as enemies, although I’msure religion onlyinflamed the persecution and massacres.
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June 21, 2011 1:15pm
tom hunter

Careful now guys. If you right-wing nut-jobs keep bandying terms like Dhimmi around you’ll have “cha” turning up to show once again that you don’t even know what the terms mean, courtesy of the great Mr Esposito, who as Salon put it:

John Esposito, university professor at Georgetown and author of “What Everyone Needs to Know about Islam,” was kind enough to explain six of the more common Islamic terms we’ve been hearing. Esposito wrote the “What it actually means” items below, following my introductions.

Awwww. How sweet. Of course it might also pay to know who this expert is:

Esposito is the founding director of something called the Prince Alwaleed bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown University — which means that the Saudi royal family pays his salary. Which, in turn, means that a man on the payroll of the world’s most oppressive Islamic regime is engaged by the Washington Post and Newsweek to provide their readers with objective facts about Islam. This perverse state of affairs is, alas, par for the course in today’s mainstream media.

That information comes from Bruce Bawer, another certified RWNJ – when he’s not being a gay activist in Europe who escaped the “Christian Taliban” of America. Frying pans and fire come to mind – although he recognises that now.
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June 21, 2011 1:16pm
Mick Mac

http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=PK-TPKvmG7UC&pg=PA530&lpg=PA530&dq=the+reason+for+dhimmitude&source=bl&ots=NvgL7JUrqK&sig=SR8XDqZqAlKfDnIoGSllB6yJras&hl=en&ei=aer_TZWLNIf4sAPHrNyrDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFUQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=the%20reason%20for%20dhimmitude&f=false

Mikenmild I found Bat de Ye’or’s book on Dhimmitude at googlebooks for you.
I don’t know how you print it out if you don’t want to sit at a screen for long, if you know how let me know as I have always preferred paper as I like to make notes and highlight things to look up and check on.
I own this book and do recommend it if only as a primer to follow the threads.
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June 21, 2011 1:20pm
Mick Mac

No Mikenmild the Armenians had entered into a Dhimma agreement and paid jeyzra as did the bishop of bagdad until the Americans arrived, so they killed him!
When they rebelled they broke the agreemnt and to the Ottomans that gave them legal right to Jihad again.
That is why present day Turkey refuses to agree that they were responsible for a massecre as in Sharia they didn’t break the law.

I’ve found Bat de ye’ors book on Dhimmitude at google vbooks for you.
http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=PK-TPKvmG7UC&pg=PA530&lpg=PA530&dq=the+reason+for+dhimmitude&source=bl&ots=NvgL7JUrqK&sig=SR8XDqZqAlKfDnIoGSllB6yJras&hl=en&ei=aer_TZWLNIf4sAPHrNyrDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFUQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=the%20reason%20for%20dhimmitude&f=false

I own it and it is a great primer for the subject, the only drawback is it is only avail on screen and I don’t know how to print it out.
Personally I prefer paper to make notes and highlight things to check out.

TOM
Eposito is also one of the signatories to LOVING GOD and NEIGHBOUR TOGETHER a response to an overture by islamic clergy to connect with Christendom.
It’s quite a read. bollocks of course, but quite a read.
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June 21, 2011 1:29pm
Mick Mac

Mikenmild
I have tried to post to you three times a reply with a link to – Islam and Dhimmitude: where civilizations collide – by Bat de Ye’or for you at googlebooks but it isn’t allowed for some reason.

Its a great primer, I own it and I do recommend it though you’ll only be able to read it as iIdon’t know how you can print any bits of it that you want to check out.
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June 21, 2011 1:33pm
Mick Mac

Tom
I’ve read Esposito and his mate MaClaren and some of the others who signed “LOVING GOD and NEIGHBOUR TOGETHER:
nice peaceful folks who seem to believe the Religion of Peace is just that at heart, towards Christianity and other non followers of their tome.
Taqiyya beautifully done but still Taqiyya.
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June 21, 2011 1:41pm
ross

Meanwhile, PM John Key has put his foot in his mouth again. He claims that Pike River would not have been allowed to open in Aussie. But that was after he complained about Helen Kelly’s comments – comments which clearly touched a nerve with the PM – and said that he could no difference between mining regulations in Aussie and here.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5171922/Pike-River-mine-would-be-illegal-in-Australia-Key
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June 21, 2011 1:46pm
Longknives

Starboard-

“Ya missed one..
6) Kill all non-believers.”

You also missed 7) Cheating at cricket.
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June 21, 2011 1:52pm
Manolo

All in all, it might have been better to be conquered by Muslims that by almost any other people in history.

Now show the other cheek. I expect you to buy a one-way ticket to Muslim paradise: Saudi Arabia.
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June 21, 2011 1:53pm
Manolo

What a stupid comment by Key. C’mon Neville muster some courage, will you?
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June 21, 2011 1:54pm
mikenmild

Mick Mac
There is a reasonable summary of Ye’or’s book at wikipedia. By his thesis though, one would have expected to see the elimination of religious minorities in Muslim countries. While this has happened to some extent, I believe there are still thriving Christian and Jewish communities in many Muslim states.
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June 21, 2011 1:54pm
mikenmild

Longknives

7) Cheating at cricket. – I thought that was Aussies!
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June 21, 2011 1:56pm
publicwatchdog

Elaycee (414) Says:
June 20th, 2011 at 8:19 am

So, Penny – I take it that you have totally distanced yourself from the anti-semitic comments made by your friend Vincent Ross Siemer?

As a reminder, I’ve copied the judgement of the Supreme Court in which Siemer’s appeal against defamation was dismissed.

The judgement [linked] is an interesting read – including the references to Siemer’s anti-semitic comments about Stiassny.

http://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/from/decisions/judgments

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

‘Elaycee’ I support Vince Seimer 100% in his fight against judicial corruption in New Zealand.

The appalling way that Vince Siemer has been treated by the NZ ‘Justice’ system makes me ashamed to be a New Zealander.

Having STUDIED the recent SUPREME COURT JUDGMENT 3 June 2011 (SC 49/2011) [2011] NZSC 63
http://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/from/decisions/judgments

I cannot find ANYTHING Vince Siemer said about Michael Stiassny that was ‘anti-semetic’ or constituted ‘vile racist abuse’.

VERY interested in the CONSIDERED opinions of ‘Kiwibloggers’ – particularly those who purport to be lawyers on this matter.

What EXACT ‘defamatory’ statements made by Vince Siemer about Michael Stiassny were relied upon by Judge Cooper from the High Court; Judges Arnold, Glazebrook and Hammond from the Court of Appeal; and Judges Blanchard, Tipping and William Young from the Supreme Court as being:

a) ‘anti-semetic’?

b) constituting ‘vile racist abuse’?

c) constituting ‘poking racist jibes’?

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

YOU BE THE JUDGE!

BACKGROUND:

On 23 December 2008, Cooper J delivered his judgment awarding the first respondent, Michael Peter Stiassny, defamation damages against Vincent Ross Siemer, totalling $825,000 and the second respondent, Korda Mentha, damages of $95,000 ($75,000 for defamation and $20,000 for breach of an agreement settling a dispute between the parties).

This was the highest ever defamation award in New Zealand.

(Korda Mentha v Siemer HC Auckland CIV-2005-404-1808, 23 December 2008. )

“An unusual feature of the case is that Mr Siemer had been debarred from defending the proceedings.”

Whatever happened to ‘Justice 101′?

That there are always at least TWO sides to the story, and in order to get a ‘fair trial’ you are supposed to be able to defend yourself?

Vince Siemer appealed to the Court of Appeal against J Cooper’s decision, and lost.

(Siemer v Stiassny [2011] NZCA 106. )

He then sought leave to appeal to the Supreme Court, but his application was dismissed.

((SC 49/2011) [2011] NZSC 63 3 June 2011 )

The judgment of Cooper J accused Vince Siemer of engaging in “vile racist abuse”;

Subsequently, a comment was made by the Court of Appeal that its attention had not been drawn to a worse case of defamation in the British Commonwealth and that its own researches had not disclosed one.

(Following comments from Steven Price Media Law Journal on these matters)

http://www.medialawjournal.co.nz/?p=205

http://www.medialawjournal.co.nz/?p=452

That’s pretty heavy stuff!

Vince Siemer was denied his day in Court to defend himself at the defamation hearing at which he got the highest ever defamation award against him and he has been denied leave to appeal to the Supreme Court about the accuracy of the comments upon which the defamation award was based.

How would you like this happening to YOU?

BEWARE! If it can happen to Vince Siemer – WHO IS NEXT?

Doesn’t this help confirm why our New Zealand so desperately needs real checks and balances to help ensure an ‘open, transparent and accountable’ judiciary?

SUCH AS:

1) An enforceable ‘Code of Conduct’ for Judges.

(Preferably based upon the ‘Banagalore Principles for Judicial Conduct’

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/search.html?q=Bangalore+Principles+of+judicial+Conduct

2) An enforceable ‘Register of Pecuniary Interests’ for Judges.

3) ALL Court proceedings to be recorded, and records made available to parties who request them.

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
‘Anti-corruption campaigner’
Attendee: Australian Public Sector Anti-Corruption Conference (APSACC) 2009
Attendee: Transparency international 14th Anti-Corruption Conference 2010
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June 21, 2011 1:56pm
tom hunter

Yah Mick Mac.

I actually burst out laughing last night when I saw cha’s link because it contained the classic definition of jihad that we’ve all grown accustomed to over the last decade:

“Greater” jihad is the struggle within oneself to live a righteous life and submit oneself to God’s will. “Lesser” jihad is the defense of Islam and the Muslim community.

Muhahahahah.

I think that Marwan al-Shehhi’s main struggle was probably wrestling with the flight controls to put UA175 into a steep bank and get back on his target of the WTC South Tower.!

Even a non-scholar of Islam like him would have had no difficulty convincing himself that he was living a righteous life, submitting himself to God’s will and also defending Islam and the Muslim community, all at the same time.

I’ve no doubt he was able to find Islamic scholars to support those thoughts. Somehow I’m not comforted by the fact that there are Islamic scholars who disagreed with him.
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June 21, 2011 2:02pm
Mick Mac

Mikenmild Bat de ye’or is a lady 🙂
and by your answer you clearly don’t understand what and how dhimmitude works.
I do urge you read the book not wikipedia.

TOM
maybe Yale’s acceptance of Prince Alwaleed bin Talal money comes with a leash?
At least Giuliani told him to take a hike.
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June 21, 2011 2:11pm
Elaycee

PB: As usual, you attempt to obfuscate. I simply asked: “So, Penny – I take it that you have totally distanced yourself from the anti-semitic comments made by your friend Vincent Ross Siemer?”

That required a simple answer: Yes? No?

It wasn’t an excuse to try and re-litigate the matters already heard before Cooper J and the decision upheld by the Supreme Court.

Looking forward to hearing your answer (Yes or No).

Elaycee.
Attendee: The Wheeltappers and Shunters Club Reunion, Christmas Island, 1996.
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June 21, 2011 2:22pm
mikenmild

Mick Mac
Sorry, at first I thought dhimmitude was just a form of the term dhimmi. Now I see it is used in a pejorative sense to mean concession to and appeasement of Mulsim demands. It seems that this is a contested idea. Some, like Ye’or, see dhimmitude as subservience and persecution. Others see the concept of dhimmi as some wonderful state of toleration. Neither view seems likely to sum up the variety of human experience of Islamic rule.
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June 21, 2011 2:24pm
mikenmild

Elaycee

Like you, I’ve read the judgement. It couldn’t be much clearer.
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June 21, 2011 2:25pm
alex Masterley

Elaycee,
Good luck in your quest for the simple answer.
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June 21, 2011 2:31pm
Nookin

If you read all the judgments you will get a feeling that the racial findings were open to the judge based on the evidence but that the appellate Courts did not sustain them with great enthusiasm Appellate Courts cannot over-turn finding of fact.
Siemer was properly debarred from the proceedings. No question in my mind that you cannot ignore (as in very deliberately give a one-fingered salute to) court orders and then expect to participate. All he had to do was take down a web-site. Instead, he put another one up.
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June 21, 2011 2:36pm
gravedodger

Good ole Philip Field has his Lawyers back at the supreme court pleading that honkys do’nt understand how different cultural attitudes to gratitude are the problem.
Whos paying and how much are the only questions I have for the S C .
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June 21, 2011 2:45pm
Elaycee

@alex Masterley says: “Good luck in your quest for the simple answer.”

The answer should take a maximum of three letters (plus a full stop).

But let’s just buckle up and wait…..

3, 2, 1….
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June 21, 2011 2:47pm
Johnboy

Elaycee. See if you can a yes or no on if my barbed wire is ready please? 🙂
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June 21, 2011 2:55pm
publicwatchdog

It was a simple question to which NONE of you (‘Elaycee’, ‘Nookin’ ‘Alex Masterley’, ‘Milkenmaid’ have replied:

“What EXACT ‘defamatory’ statements made by Vince Siemer about Michael Stiassny were relied upon by Judge Cooper from the High Court; Judges Arnold, Glazebrook and Hammond from the Court of Appeal; and Judges Blanchard, Tipping and William Young from the Supreme Court as being:

a) ‘anti-semitic’?

b) constituting ‘vile racist abuse’?

c) constituting ‘poking racist jibes’?”

http://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/from/decisions/judgments

Too hard?

Would require STUDY and CAREFUL consideration?

You’re not up to it?

In my considered opinion, Vincent Ross Siemer has not made ANY ‘anti-semitic’ comments – so ‘Elaycee’ there is nothing for me to distance myself from.

If you think otherwise – please provide the EVIDENCE?

AGAIN: The EXACT ‘defamatory’ phrases or sentences made by Vince Siemer about Michael Stiassny that were relied upon by Judge Cooper from the High Court; Judges Arnold, Glazebrook and Hammond from the Court of Appeal; and Judges Blanchard, Tipping and William Young from the Supreme Court as being:

a) ‘anti-semitic’

b) constituting ‘vile racist abuse’

c) constituting ‘poking racist jibes’

Vince Siemer must have said something REALLY bad to get a defamation award against him of $900,000?

SO – WHAT WAS IT?

Come on you ‘would be’ lawyers………..

Kind regards

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
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June 21, 2011 2:59pm
alex Masterley

Nope.
No simple answer.
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June 21, 2011 3:02pm
Elaycee

Haha – So Penny, you haven’t got the courage to answer a simple question (Yes or No)?

Didn’t think so.

I was right when I described you as someone who comes out of the blocks like a thousand cannons but finishes as a pop gun.
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June 21, 2011 3:04pm
nasska

Brevity is dead.
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June 21, 2011 3:05pm
Mick Mac

Mikenmild
Don’t go all Pete George on me.
http://markdurie.blogspot.com/2011/06/dhimmitude-and-ibn-ajibah-on-death-of.html

FYI This is from Orthodox Islamic Commentaries

Commentary of Ibn Ajibah on Sura 9:29. (The original Arabic can be found here.)
Here I offer just one of the 69 commentaries on Sura 9:29, in translation. This is the commentary Tafsir al-Bahr al-Madid fi Tafsir al-Qur’an al-Magid of Ibn Ajibah, who Wikipedia describes as an “18th-century Moroccan saint in the Darqawa Sufi Islamic lineage.”

Although this commentary is quite typical in its approach to explaining Sura 9:29, what is noteworthy is the psychological analysis it gives of the intended outcome of the dhimma system, namely the ‘death’ of the dhimmi’s soul.

NB: the bold text in curly braces is translation from the Qur’an. Material in square brackets is my interpolations. Indented material is my explanation.

“[the dhimmi] is commanded to put his soul, good fortune and desires to death. Above all he should kill the love of life, leadership and honour… [He] is to invert the longings of his soul, he is to load it down more heavily than it can bear until it is completely submissive. Thereafter nothing will be unbearable for him. He will be indifferent to subjugation or might. Poverty and wealth will be the same to him; praise and insult will be the same; preventing and yielding will be the same; lost and found will be the same. Then, when all things are the same, it [the soul] will be submissive and yield willingly what it should give.

Ibn Ajibah is explaining the purpose and meaning of the jizya payment ritual, including the blow on the neck. This ritual, he says, represents the death of the dhimmi’s soul.

[Only] then is it [the soul of the dhimmi] to be preserved and looked after.

The purpose of this soul suicide is to ensure that the dhimmi will give everything to the Muslims that he is supposed to as a grateful service. Ibn Ajibah makes the point that protection of the dhimmi by Muslims (including from jihad attack) is only to be provided if the dhimmi has put his soul to death by this means (i.e. he is utterly submissive).

Then he [Allah] mentions the reason for jihad against the people of the Book [in the next verse Sura 9:30]: it is the corruption of their belief…

This is the reason for fighting Christians and Jews: it is because their belief is corrupt.”
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June 21, 2011 3:05pm
Mick Mac

http://www.dhimmi.org/LectureE3.html

Mikemild
This was given to US Congress in 1997 long before 911 and the broughah since, read the three principles of Dhimmitude.
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June 21, 2011 3:13pm
backster

MICMAC/ MIKENMILD………Crusader Rabitt reports on an interesting current court case involving Islam on his blog.
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June 21, 2011 3:13pm
mikenmild

Ok Penny, I’ll play.

In Justice Cooper’s decision the noted the phrase ‘ …what a good Jew he is (no joke)’ as being used by Siemer. Was this a racist jibe?

Maybe not a serious taunt; but it seems unlikely to have been used by Siemer in an attempt to compliment Mr Stiassny.

In any event, Cooper’s judgment comprehensively catalogues the wilful defamation and refusals to correct it, even to the point where Siemer ruled himself out of court proceedings.

Not a cause worth fighting for.
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June 21, 2011 3:16pm
Mick Mac

thanks backster apologies.
who’s crusader rabbit?
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June 21, 2011 3:24pm
Elaycee

Now let me see:

On the one hand, defamatory statements made by Vince Siemer about Michael Stiassny were considered by Judge Cooper from the High Court; Judges Arnold, Glazebrook and Hammond from the Court of Appeal; and Judges Blanchard, Tipping and William Young from the Supreme Court and the awarding of damages for defamation was confirmed. That’s a lot of judges across three different Courts – all on the same page!

On the other hand, Penny Bright (self appointed font of knowledge to anyone who listens) thinks that they all got it wrong.

Based on the reasonable elements of proof, who do you think got the decision right? Sorry Penny, doesn’t look flash for you, does it?

But you still haven’t answered the question – do you endorse the anti-semitic comments that were attributed to Siemer?
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June 21, 2011 3:24pm
Manolo

The Russian’s are hoping for the Messiah’s re-election:
I believe I have been lucky in this respect at least, because my counterpart has been a modern man wanting change not only for America, but for the whole world order as well. … Let me tell you that no one wishes the re-election of Barack Obama as US president as I do.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100092875/a-damning-indictment-of-the-white-house%E2%80%99s-spineless-foreign-policy-barack-obama-gets-the-kremlin%E2%80%99s-vote-for-2012/
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June 21, 2011 3:25pm
mikenmild

Mick Mac
Thanks. I can accept Ye’or as a serious scholar, but I think she is representing an extreme end of a spectrum of views. Christian and Jewish communities have been tolerated in Muslim countries for hundreds of years. That’s not to deny that persecution has occurred and can still occur. At various times and place all sorts of religious minorities have been either tolerated or persecuted.
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June 21, 2011 3:38pm
tom hunter

… maybe Yale’s acceptance of Prince Alwaleed bin Talal money comes with a leash?

Meh.

More like a carrot. But given that Yale were the ones who published Professor Klausen’s supposedly scholarly work The Cartoons that Shook the World – without including the cartoons themselves – there’s also a big stick involved.

Who needs terrorists when you have the situation described by blogger SmallDeadAnimals who had been “warned” by some commentator about the “problems” who writings might create:

Thanks for your concern, Mitra. You see – there’s the difference between an “extremist” and a “moderate”.

The “extremist” is the one with the death threat.

The “moderate” is the one who explains what you’ve done to deserve it.

But let’s face it. You don’t even need “moderates” to warn people who are already in the dhimmi state, some of whom are so advanced that they themselves convey the warnings.
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June 21, 2011 3:43pm
mikenmild

Interesting point Tom, although Klausen himself wanted to include the cartoons; the deletion was done by the publisher.
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June 21, 2011 3:50pm
Ender

Anyone that is on Twitter may be interested to follow @LulzSec.

Have been following for a while but they seem to be ramping up their attacks on govt. and military and have apparently joined forces with Anon for such attacks.

Leaks to come I think. These guys are good.
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June 21, 2011 3:59pm
georgebolwing

Latest Roy Morgan poll is out: http://www.roymorgan.com/news/polls/2011/4678/

And looks like that the last was was, indeed, a rouge.

National Party is on 53% (up 4%), the Maori Party 3% (up 0.5%), ACT NZ 3% (up 1.5%) and United Future 0.5% (unchanged).

Labour Party 30% (down 6%), Greens 7% (up 0.5%), New Zealand First 2.5% (unchanged), Progressive Party 0% (unchanged) and Others 1% (down 0.5%).

ACT doubling to 3.0% will be of concern to Key, since it will give labour something to squark about. Expect to see National promote more “robust” policies, like labour market and welfare reform, in an attempt to stop more conservative National members drfiting to ACT.
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June 21, 2011 4:08pm
tom hunter

I believe there are still thriving Christian and Jewish communities in many Muslim states

You are just sooooo sweet and cuddly.

You might want to check up on the Jewish populations living in Muslim states comparing say 1990 to 1930 or some such – just to exclude the whole GWOT-as-reason arguments. Iran, Iraq, Libya, Morocco, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, ….

There aren’t many left and those that remain are close to the grave.

The Christians are doing a bit better but even there it’s more a matter of hanging on as the Islamist wave builds in places like Egypt where they formally had little power. We’ll see how much longer the Coptics can cope.

…. although Klausen himself wanted to include the cartoons; the deletion was done by the publisher.

Groan (clasps hands to forehead)….

There’s a point where being sweetly obtuse just isn’t sweet.
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June 21, 2011 4:14pm
Manolo

Expect to see National promote more “robust” policies, like labour market and welfare reform,..

Hell will freeze over first. The National Party, under its current leadership, has moved too much to the left for that to happen. Of course, Key can promise whatever he wants, but he will not deliver.
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June 21, 2011 4:16pm
georgebolwing

On a very quick calculation, the Roy Morgan poll suggests the following make up of Parliament:

National 66
Labour 38
Greens 9
ACT 4
Maori Party 4
United Future 1
Progressive Party 0
NZ First 0

Assumptions: ACT wins Epsom, Maori party wins at least one electorate seat, Dunne wins his seat, NZ First doesn’t win an electoarte seat.
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June 21, 2011 4:25pm
mikenmild

Tom

With the Coptics in Egypt being 10-15% of the population they are probably on safe ground. Many middle eastern Jewish communities disappeared after 1947 with the creation of Israel. There do remain Jewish communities in some state, most surprisingly perhaps being that in Iran.

In sum, persecution of religious minorities under Islam seems to have varied widely overtime and space, just as religious persecution has varied in other countries and under other religions.
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June 21, 2011 4:28pm
Mick Mac

Mikenmild
Bollocks, tell that to the Copt girls who get abused or attacked each day and their parents who fear letting their children out.
As part of their ongoing daily dhimmitude they get refusals to get permits to repair churches and businesses or access to schools for their kids.

I think you’ll find it was 700,000 odd people who disappeared from Arab/Muslim countries and were absorbed into Israel between 1948 and 1990 with some going on to Europe and USA with a trickle here to Australasia.
Most left behind their homes busineses and most of their worldly possessions and in the meantime did not get a monthly cheque from Israel courtesy of the EU or Scandanavians.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/06/its_not_about_israel_-_its_about_democracy.html
Interesting side comment about Palestinians in Jordan about halfway in.
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June 21, 2011 4:45pm
tom hunter

I believe there are still thriving Christian and Jewish communities in many Muslim states

Many middle eastern Jewish communities disappeared after 1947 with the creation of Israel

?

Good thing there was an Israel to go to. Wonder where else these Middle Eastern natives would have been welcome.

Perhaps there’s no point in continuing this conversation.
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June 21, 2011 4:46pm
Mick Mac

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/06/new_key_number_the_solvency_index.html

anyone know where we are on the Insolvency Index?
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June 21, 2011 4:48pm
mikenmild

Tom
The creation of Israel had an undoubted impact on middle eastern Jewish communities. For the first time, there was a viable destination for emigration, encouraged and supported by the new state. At the same time, Arab states opposed to the creation of Israel increased persecution of their Jewish minorities. So there was a push/pull effect. Possibly if Isreal had not been founded most of those commnuities would remain as they had for hundreds of years.
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June 21, 2011 4:54pm
Rodders

georgebolwing said “NZ First 0”

A result that would accurately represent what they deserve.
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June 21, 2011 5:17pm
joana

Mikem
”The Christian Copts in Egypt on safe ground??”” Where have you been ?? Do some research…I think the word is genocide.
Christians have been fleeing the middle east for decades.
Life is always very , very unfair for any non muslims living in a so called muslim country. The unfairness is indescribable so anyone who is able to , flees.
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June 21, 2011 5:34pm
Elaycee

Penny:

You still haven’t answered the question – do you endorse the anti-semitic comments that were attributed to Siemer?

And by the way, Johnboy is dark on you because he still hasn’t received his barbed wire. What’s up?

Elaycee.
Attendee – Mangakino Dog Trials 1997. (All were found guilty).

🙂
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June 21, 2011 5:48pm
Inventory2

Elaycee.
Attendee – Mangakino Dog Trials 1997. (All were found guilty).

It was a fit-up! Get Penny on the job; she’ll fight to find the truth whilst those poor dogs languish in a cage somewhere…
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June 21, 2011 6:20pm
Elaycee

@Inventory2 – Wow! You may be right – best I check the names of the judges and compare them to Penny’s list.

Hang on – I’ve found the link!

One of the dogs was called Samson. Its actually a Hebrew name (Son of Sam) and Penny might really be on the money.

Haha

🙂
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June 21, 2011 6:36pm
mikenmild

Penny and Vince dog-whistling for the anti-Semites?
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June 21, 2011 6:39pm
nasska

Joe goes to the doctor and says to him…
“Doc, my arm is killing me but I don’t know what I did to it.”
The doctor jumps up from his chair and hands Joe a specimen cup.
“Piss in this cup” The doctor says
Joe pees in the cup and gives it to the doctor.
“We get to try out my new machine.” Says the doc.
He then takes Joe’s piss and dumps it into the big machine in the corner of the office. The machine makes a few noises and after about 3 seconds, it spits out a piece of paper. The doctor picks up the paper and reads it…
“You have tennis elbow.”
“How can that hunk of junk tell I have tennis elbow just from a cup of my piss?” Joe asks.
“This “hunk of junk” is a state of the art machine and can tell what is wrong with a person from a stubbed toe to terminal cancer.” The doc replied. “Come back in 2 weeks with another specimen and we will see how you are doing.”
2 weeks go by and Joe has decided he wants to stuff around with the doctor. He gets his wife to piss in the cup, he gets his daughter to piss in the cup, he puts some oil from his car in the cup, he even wanks off in the cup. He takes this lovely mixture to the doctor with him to the doctor. When he walks into the office, the doctor is reading the paper.
“Did you bring your sample Joe?”
“Yep, I sure did Doc.” Joe replies.
“Go ahead and dump it in then.”
Joe dumps the sample into the machine and immediately the machine starts jerking and coughing. After about 2 minutes, the machine spits out a long piece of paper which the doctor quickly picks up and reads to himself.
“Uhuh…mmhum…I see…”
“So Doc, what does your state of the art machine say now?” Joe snickered.
“Well,” replied the doctor “It says here your daughter’s pregnant, your wife’s cheating on you, your car needs a new gearbox and if you’d quit wanking so much you’d probably get rid of that tennis elbow.”
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June 21, 2011 7:19pm
tom hunter

So there was a push/pull effect. Possibly if Isreal had not been founded ….

I was focused more on the fact that your earlier statement I believe there are still thriving Christian and Jewish communities in many Muslim states, was directly contradicted by your later statement that Many middle eastern Jewish communities disappeared after 1947 with the creation of Israel

But if you can’t see any apparent contradiction then I guess there’s no point in continuing this conversation and I’ll leave you to continue on whistling past the graveyard.

Pity really. Women and gays the world over really could have used some help from the Left in their struggles with Islamism. Still, I’m sure you’ll be there the next time some Fundamentalist Christian raises his head.
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June 21, 2011 7:26pm
Hurf Durf

I believe I have been lucky in this respect at least, because my counterpart has been a modern man wanting change not only for America, but for the whole world order as well. … Let me tell you that no one wishes the re-election of Barack Obama as US president as I do.

Of course. Russia has caught up a lot with NATO and the US thanks to Start IV and the rest of the anti-nuker crap.

Very lucky, Mr Medyedev.
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June 21, 2011 7:33pm
mikenmild

tom

I don’t really see a contradiction there. Some Jewish communities disappeared; some remain to this day. The Jews left/were expelled from Iraq, but remained in Iran.

I also don’t doubt that women and gays don’t always have the easiest time in Islamic countries, to put it mildly. But even there, the experience varies markedly. My impression was that the social status of women in the Islamic world was more modulated by cultural traditions rather than religion.

The whole thread of my argument has been to point out that Islam is no wholly evil force, as some Kiwibloogers seem to believe.
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June 21, 2011 7:35pm

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