General Debate 1 June 2011

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starboard

pinch and a punch…
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June 1, 2011 8:36am
lilman

maybe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
could it be!!!!!!!!!!!!
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June 1, 2011 8:36am
lilman

douh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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June 1, 2011 8:37am
Elaycee

starboard (1,914) Says:
June 1st, 2011 at 8:36 am
pinch and a punch…

… and a pinch and a kick for being so quick!
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June 1, 2011 8:46am
shady

…. I thought it was a flick and a kick …..
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June 1, 2011 8:47am
starboard

Muwhahahahahah!!!
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June 1, 2011 8:48am
Christopher Thomson

I love the smell of reasoned debate in the morning. It smells like …..
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June 1, 2011 8:56am
thedavincimode

Questions arising from comments by something horrifying that was on the tele last night:

1. Is cutting a hand-out for someone who is perfectly able to work but chooses not to “a welfare cut”?

2. Why is it that farmers, winegrowers and fruitgrowers import people from Fiji, the Philippines and South America to work full-time or undertake seasonal work. Is it because there are no jobs out there?

3. Why is it that it seems in the big smoke, there so many immigrants from Asia who work in petrol stations and write out parking tickets? Is it because there are no jobs out there?
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June 1, 2011 8:59am
thedavincimode

“I love the smell of reasoned debate in the morning. ”

You better look somewhere else then. 😉
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June 1, 2011 9:02am
KH

Now here the first glimmerings of a good thing. A bit more of this and New Zealand will be on the way to being wealthy again.

http://www.interest.co.nz/rural-news/53718/bank-credit-figures-show-farmers-have-cut-debt-nz1-bln-september-appearing-bank-muc
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June 1, 2011 9:07am
david

KH, the flip side to that and to the general savings surge that is currently being experienced is that bank profitability will fall. Banks make no profit from having “money-in-the-bank” and their best results come from having lots of people owing them lots of dosh.

They could of course start buying US dollars I suppose which would provide them an upside in exchange rates but bugger-all in interest returns, but you can expect some aggressive lending in the next year or so while the big 4 banks seek to raise the level of Kiwi indebtedness.
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June 1, 2011 9:16am
david

davinci
a debate implies contrasting POVs – what is to debate?
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June 1, 2011 9:19am
AlphaKiwi

@ thedavincimode

Interesting questions. Remember when we were told that immigration would be the saviour of Western economies? The reality is that a lot of immigrants end up taking any job they can get. Business migrants tend to buy existing businesses rather than start new businesses. We can’t blame the immigrants for this, it’s successive governments lazy handling of immigration policy.
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June 1, 2011 9:22am
nasska

thedavincimode

“Questions arising from comments….”

I successfully dodge any temptation to watch TV news or current affairs safe in the knowledge that I could receive the same biased crap at “Red Alert” or “The Standard”. It is not hard to infer that you are responding to comments made by the uniquely insane Sue Bradford.

The answers to your queries could lie in the very small difference between the wages offered on entry level jobs & the comparative largess of the welfare system. Put simply it doesn’t make sense for people to pick apples for $35/bin when they can sit on their arses in front of TV for similar money.

The country is in no shape for increases in minimum wages & it would be politically impossible to lower benefits but applying really stringent conditions to “add ons” to benefits & not raising them for a few years may help create a difference (& therefore an incentive).
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June 1, 2011 9:24am
kaya

thedavincimode – and why is it I was talking to someone who got their house painted very cheaply by a group of mainland Chinese who (in his words) couldn’t speak a word of English? (I thought basic English was a requirement for entry)

Could it be because they are working under the table for less than the mimimum wage and undercutting Kiwi tradesmen or because they are such highly skilled painters? Looking at the quality of the job I know which one is most likely.
All organised by a good Kiwi “business” man of course.
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June 1, 2011 9:24am
david

Does anyone else think that Len Brown was on something stronger than coffee last night with his patently false confidence over the rail loop. I think he was channelling MLK Jnr or perhaps it was MacArthur. “I will do it” (cue Tui ad here)

Hey Len, how did the 100 days thing go?
Hey Len, does the mayoral limo still drive beside the train when you take the 8:05 to Britomart?
Hey Len, what sort of starting time is 8:05 for the city’s leader? isn’t there something important like cutting costs and fixing roads that need your attention?
Hey Len, Isn’t it great sounding important and confident when all you are promising is to spend someone else’s money?
Hey Len, have you got the VIP seats all sorted for all the RWC games being held in Auckland and will you be taking the train to Eden Park?
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June 1, 2011 9:27am
mikenmild

Welfare and the minimum wage again? I’ll have a go. Don’t cut benefits and do raise the minimum wage progressively. Benefit reform needs to be focused on the right incentives and responding appropriately to individual circumstances. A minimum wage at a fair level is just one of those things a modern society need to have, like health and safety rules, holidays and other basic employment conditions.
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June 1, 2011 9:32am
starboard

Stop the DPB. From January 1st 2012 there will no more slapper payments. Easy fix.
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June 1, 2011 9:38am
Murray

There will be a lot of hungry children and desperate mothers starbord. Whats your follow up plan, take them out into the wilds and shoot them?
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June 1, 2011 9:46am
voice of reason

Kaya – they could well be the same painters that I came across painting a school out on SH16 a few months ago, I had stopped to ask directions, None of the 4 could speak any english but they did know that you could make paint go further by adding water to it.
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June 1, 2011 9:47am
nasska

mikenmild

It would be political suicide to lower benefits…it would just be playing into the hands of the leftists & their mangy mates in the MSM. In any case the basic benefits are not that high & are not really the issue. It’s the add ons for rent, clothing, no interests loans for car repairs & arrears in power accounts & the like that create an income level that is hardly matched by entry level employment.

Re the minimum wage… NZ & Co is not in a position to raise the cost of doing business. Shelve it & let’s revisit the issue when times improve.
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June 1, 2011 9:47am
starboard

The family of said slapper can look after them. Why the fuck should I have to do it ?? Im sick of paying for these tarts who go out and deliberatly get pregnant just to go on the DPB. There are thousands and thousands who do it. Dont get me wrong , there needs to be some sort of safety net for those who really need assistance but that assistance shouldnt be for life. You get pregnant and you are not married or you wont hand over the name of the father…theres the door , dont let it hit your fat arse on the way out…” NEXT”….
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June 1, 2011 9:51am
Ryan Sproull

The family of said slapper can look after them. Why the fuck should I have to do it ?? Im sick of paying for these tarts who go out and deliberatly get pregnant just to go on the DPB. There are thousands and thousands who do it.

Citation needed.
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June 1, 2011 9:52am
starboard

pppfffttt.
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June 1, 2011 9:53am
Bevan

Hate Crime? Labour have got to be fucking kidding me – how the fuck can questioning the economics of a particular transport system be a hate crime?

This is just going to make them look even more like a fringe party.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10729361&ref=rss
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June 1, 2011 9:56am
wat dabney

mikenmild,

“A minimum wage at a fair level is just one of those things a modern society need to have”

No, it isn’t. You’re saying that every job should pay a living wage. That’s nonsense. There are any number of trivial unskilled tasks that people are happy to do for the relatively low-pay they return. A few hours working in a shop, perhaps. Whatever. Often these are done by students, part-timers and pensioners looking to earn a bit of extra money. There’s no way that these jobs would be viable if they had to pay a living wage.
Yet you’re arguing that all such jobs be abolished. The “fair wage” you impose on these people in effect becomes zero. How is that fair?

Perhaps what a “modern society needs to have” is not more coercive central control from people like yourself, but the freedom to allow individuals to make their own choices based on their own desires and situations.
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June 1, 2011 9:59am
TripeWryter

Starboard:

You’ve been listening to Lindsay Mitchell too much.

Most women (and men) on the DPB have historically been people who have been in longish-term relationships, have escaped abusive marriages, or been left by someone who has walked out on their responsibilities. And yes, also people who have torpedoed their marriages and have taken the kids, as well. Historically most DPB recipients have been people aged between their late 20s to early 50s.

I have yet to see evidence that any woman deliberately gets pregnant to go on the DPB.

Do you know any woman who has got pregnant deliberately to get the DPB? If so, how do you know? Did she tell you?

And please: no second-hand, third-hand ‘I have a friend who knows a cousin of a cousin of a cousin of a friend of an acquaintance who told me’ type of reply that you hear on radio talkback or in the columns of Kiwiblog.
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June 1, 2011 10:06am
thedavincimode

“Don’t cut benefits”

!!!!!!!!! Read the question again and this time don’t read it standing on your head. In fact read them all again because this has fuck all to do with the minimum wage. You are surely not suggesting that people should legitimately turn down work because they don’t think it pays enough. Oh, of course you were.

“Benefit reform needs to be focused on the right incentives”

Correct. No workey, no tryey, no money. More rootey, less money.

Double pppfffttt.

“Whats your follow up plan, take them out into the wilds and shoot them?”

Send them around to dime.
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June 1, 2011 10:08am
mikenmild

Wat

You don’t need to put words in my mouth. I’m not talking about students or setting minimum rate of pocket money formowing my lawn. All I’m saying is that a basic entitlement to a fair wage is no different from providing safe workplaces, prohibiting child labour or a host of other things that distinguish our society from less developed ones.
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June 1, 2011 10:11am
Elaycee

@thedavincimode

The big difference between ‘them and us’ is quite simple – if I was in a position where I had to find work to get an income, I’d have no problem in getting off my arse to sweep streets or shovel horse shit in order to get some cash. Indeed, if I had to move to Nelson or the BOP (or wherever there is work) to work in an orchard, so be it.

OTOH, the bludgers of this world (I’m not including genuine beneficiaries) have an innate sense of entitlement that someone else will pay them for not working. If they choose to live in a town where there is little paying work, then they cannot expect to be on the benefit for the rest of their lives. In fact, they should be told to relocate to the location where there is work!

This sense of ‘entitlement’ is the issue for me. Its out of control and will cripple this country unless the hard decisions are made. And soon.
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June 1, 2011 10:15am
grumpyoldhori

What, no three rounds between whale and a politician, come on whale challenge Hone to three rounds in the ring.
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June 1, 2011 10:20am
RightNow

TripeWryter, sorry to butt in, but I’m wondering if you have any links or facts for these assertions?

“Most women (and men) on the DPB have historically been people who have been in longish-term relationships, have escaped abusive marriages, or been left by someone who has walked out on their responsibilities.”

“Historically most DPB recipients have been people aged between their late 20s to early 50s.”
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June 1, 2011 10:22am
nasska

TripeWryter

…”I have yet to see evidence that any woman deliberately gets pregnant to go on the DPB.”…

In the sense of working out likely conception dates on a calender to facilitate getting pregnant, no you’re right, but in the sense of not using contraception because they don’t care if pregnancy results, you’re wrong.
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June 1, 2011 10:33am
starboard

Tripewriter..take a trip down to your local shopping mall anyday…have a look at the age of the girls pushing the prams, ffs some of them are barely older than the offspring they are shunting around. They are usually in groups of 3 or more , skank stamp attached to their backs in full view , fat guts and tits hangin out of their undersized tops and sometimes with a shitbag loser in tow ( cap on back to front , tag pen in hand ) all moochin around doin fuk all. These are the toerags Keys govt should be clamping down on. My hard earned taxes are not for them and I strongly object having to pay for their chosen ( and I have no doubt that it is cos their mamas are exactly the same ) lifestyle
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June 1, 2011 10:42am
virtualmark

Milkenmild:

A minimum wage at a fair level is just one of those things a modern society need to have

Please define “fair” in clear terms.

Please feel free to include reference to fairness to employers, fairness in terms of the number of jobs which will become uneconomic at higher wage rates, the resulting fairness to those workers who are then priced out of a job etc etc.

“Fair” is just woolly words for “what I would like to happen in my own personal dreamworld”. Unfortunately we don’t live in your own personal dreamworld, and I suspect the real world is a whole lot harsher than your fantasies.
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June 1, 2011 10:42am
mikenmild

Virtualmark

‘Fair’ could indeed be a subjective term. So I wouldn’t have a problem with the minimum wage set at a percentage of overall median wage. While I’m sure many employers would like to pay less, I would maintain that this is a simple obligation, no different from many others we assume. There is conflicting evidence on the economic effects of minimum wages and changes in them.
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June 1, 2011 10:50am
lofty

On another “general” subject, may I by way of this forum express my deepest thanks to Tony Ryall, the minister of health, in the way that he, along with his obviously competant staff, have made wonderful inroads into the treatment of patients? We have recently been the beneficiaries of the “new” look systems that have been put into place, and are more than impressed.
If this Government carrys on with general public service reforms, and gains the same level of efficiencies, we all have a lot of good things to look forward to.
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June 1, 2011 10:57am
Elaycee

Starboard 10.42am. Haha – well written. Now I have to wipe my coffee off the laptop.
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June 1, 2011 11:09am
virtualmark

mikenmild:

I wouldn’t have a problem with the minimum wage set at a percentage of overall median wage

The big problem with that approach is that you bake in wage inflation. The overall median wage includes people on the minimum wage. As the overall median rises so the minimum wage rises, which pushes up the overall median wage, which in turns raises the minimum wage further, which pushes up the overall median wage, which … you get the picture.
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June 1, 2011 11:39am
TripeWryter

RightNow:

You’re not butting in. This is a free-for-all. My source for that used to be information from the Ministry of Social Development/Social Welfare. Over several years I used to get sent the data when I was on the DPB. A couple of times I even phoned the ministry (when you could speak to a human being there) to seek clarification on what I thought the figures were telling me.

Now, it’s probably about eight years since I last did that, because by then I had gone off the DPB and was working.

The figures corresponded, in a small way, with my experience and what I saw around me: most solo parents, mostly mothers, in my agegroup (late 20s, mostly in 30s-40s), all with kids they cared for. Most had been married or in a long-term relationship. Most of us had had the common experience of being too trusting of the best friend or the neighbour.

But what I read now every so often, usually in the papers, suggest that is still the case — that teenage mothers have always been in the minority.

Hi, Nasska:

I meant ‘deliberately’ in the sense of, and what Lindsay Mitchell appears to believe, getting pregnant deliberately as a means of securing a welfare benefit. I know women — and not just single ones — who have deliberately got pregnant for several reasons: to secure a man; to replace a miscarried or aborted child; to replace a lost older child (I was one of those, apparently); to please someone else.

I’ve know girls from when I was younger who got pregnant simply because they didn’t think it would happen to them. One I knew said she ‘didn’t want to ruin the vibe of the moment’ by either saying no, crossing her legs, or insisting that the guy put on a condom. Back then, many guys regarded the wearing of a ‘joe’ as an insult to their manliness. By the way, I’m the resulting girl’s godfather. She is a credit to her mother and the grandparents who helped raise her.

Starboard:

So the short answer is ‘no’, then. You don’t know any girl or woman who deliberately got pregnant so she could receive the DPB.

I should say, just in case I am misunderstood, I don’t think that a girl getting pregnant is a good idea. Their future is contricted for at least the next 18 years. While they’re having to cope with breastfeeding, nappie-changing, puking babies in the middle of the night, days of wailing while they might be teething, and no social life, and so on and so on and so on, their friends are off partying, having a good time, working, educating themselves, making a career, getting married, travelling, buying things.

It is a lonely life.

You know, I’m surprised that we still have so many teen pregnancies. After nearly 30 years of state-funded and state-sponsored sex education. There is no excuse for a girl or boy now, I feel, not to know how to avoid pregnancy.

In 1968 a girl I knew from a ‘good Catholic family’ (and they were) sobbed to my mother that she didn’t think she could get pregnant the first time. She hadn’t meant it to happen; but the boy was ‘keen’, and she wanted to keep him. Of course, he galloped off into the sunset, and wasn’t seen or heard of again.

But that was a time when sex appeared not to be discussed very much.
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June 1, 2011 11:48am
mikenmild

virtualmark

Surely adjusting a rate in that way is unlikely to be inflationary, unless a very large percentage of workers are on the minimum wage?
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June 1, 2011 11:55am
david

One proxy for “choice” would seem to be the number on the DPB who refuse to name the father. I can think of no other reason to attribute it to. Unfortunately I don’t have the stats or links but understand that the level is quite high.
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June 1, 2011 12:35pm
thedavincimode

starboard

You need to start going to a different supermarket. It must be very off-putting.
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June 1, 2011 12:53pm
Pete George

starboard – yes, there is some of that about and visible, hard not to notice some of the sights, but it’s also hard to judge what proportion it represents.

There’s a heck of a lot more that doesn’t stand out in the supermarkets and the suburbs, the usual un-noted majority.
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June 1, 2011 1:15pm
KiwiGreg

@ david pretty sure since they bought in child support you have to name the father to get the DPB.
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June 1, 2011 1:15pm
wreck1080

woohoo, looks like the reserve bank is taking action on the dollar……or, it could be just some bad news out there.

Wait to see what caused the drop.
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June 1, 2011 1:23pm
Longknives

Trypewriter/Starboard-

“So the short answer is ‘no’, then. You don’t know any girl or woman who deliberately got pregnant so she could receive the DPB.”

Many years ago when I first left Varsity I worked at WINZ for six months or so….If it weren’t for all sorts of privacy laws I could name you fucking hundreds of them! And I have to say Starboards ‘colourful’ description of their physical appearance is, for the most parts, rather accurate….
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June 1, 2011 1:53pm
Manolo

Why is it that farmers, winegrowers and fruitgrowers import people from Fiji, the Philippines and South America to work full-time or undertake seasonal work. Is it because there are no jobs out there?

No. The jobs are out there, but the natives are lazy and cannot be bothered.
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June 1, 2011 1:54pm
David Garrett

KiwiGreg: someone else will no doubt be able to confirm it, but my understanding is that the payment is less if the woman doesnt name the father..but they still get a benefit.

Anyone who DOESN’T think a small minority of women chose the DPB as a lifestyle has had a very limited life experience. The tragic joke – for them and not the poor kids they beget – is that just as it’s a myth that there are hundreds of thousands of them, its also a myth that it’s any kind of comfortable existence.
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June 1, 2011 1:58pm
toad

Just when I thought the ACT Party couldn’t get more dominated by wealthy, bigoted, elderly white men, Bob “Left Testicle” Clarkson joins up.
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June 1, 2011 2:07pm
laworder

Trype writer wrote

I have yet to see evidence that any woman deliberately gets pregnant to go on the DPB.

Do you know any woman who has got pregnant deliberately to get the DPB? If so, how do you know? Did she tell you?

I had a flatmate about ten years ago who impregnated a woman at her specific request in order that she get on the DPB
I remember it well, as he brought her round home, and we they talked about it in front of me – he was a bit leery, but went ahead on the understanding that he was not to be named or have any involvement in resulting progeny. I discuussed it with him at some length later.

That said, most DPB recipients are as you say women (or men) who have escaped abusive relationships etc, and are for the most part perfectly legitimate and try their best to be good parents. It is a very visible minority that bring the rest into disrepute. The DPB is also available for people in caregiver roles, and these are generally legitimate and genuine too

Regards
Peter Jenkins
see http://www.sensiblesentencing.org.nz
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June 1, 2011 2:17pm
publicwatchdog

Where can we find the details of all the thousands of ‘corporate welfare’ beneficiaries – the private ‘piggy-in-the-middle’ consultants and private contractors doing work for private profit that used to be provided ‘in-house’ at central and local government level?

Where can we find the publicly-available ‘devilish’ detail:
The name of the contractor/consultants; the scope, term and value of these contracts?

Where can we find the ‘cost-benefit analyses’ which PROVE that all this private procurement of public services is a more ‘cost-effective’ use of taxpayer/ratepayer monies than when they used to be provided ‘in-house’ by the ‘bureaucracy’ as opposed to the ‘contractocracy’?

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
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June 1, 2011 2:18pm
double d

wreck – yeah great it has dropped to 0.82 ……..
doin it hard being an exporter …
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June 1, 2011 2:20pm
laworder

On the subject of welfare reform, I am strongly in favour of some kind of voucher system. I have absolutely no issue with people who need it getting assistance. What I have a problem with is the State giving people cash which they then spend on alcohol, smokes, drugs, gambling etc. A system by where those receiving state support receive it in the form of vouchers (these could be electronic and loaded on a card) redeemable at all major retailers for anything bar alcohol, cigarettes and lotto etc would reduce a lot of the problems. It wouldnt completely solve them, but no system is ever going to do that.

I prefer this approach as it tackles the root cause of many of the problems without unduly punishing those genuinely deserving of assistance

Regards
Peter Jenkins
see http://www.sensiblesentencing.org.nz
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June 1, 2011 2:23pm
nasska

laworder

The cards may help the situation a little. I understand that emergency benefits are paid by voucher with alcohol & tobacco as expressly prohibited items.

The downside is that items that can be purchased on the cards will be discounted to neighbours/relatives/friends in return for the beers & smokes the beneficiaries want.
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June 1, 2011 2:34pm
KevinH

Young woman get pregnant because: “they want to”. They have a choice the same as any female.
That may be difficult for a man to wrap his mind around but it is an age old practice. Woman get pregnant for a whole variety of reasons, security, fertility,love, and desperation. In todays world nothing has changed, the reasons span the generations.
There is no question that a small percentage of woman concieve for welfare, they have difficult and complex lives complicated by to many children, insufficient support and a low i.q. That is an honest, frank,statement.
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June 1, 2011 2:42pm
Falafulu Fisi

Toad said…
Just when I thought the ACT Party couldn’t get more dominated by:

– wealthy

What’s wrong with being wealthy Toad? Typical leftist of feeling envy towards those who made it. I suggest you buy 50 Cents’ CD called Get Rich or Die Tryin (cure for envy). I reckon, you’ll love the hip-hop In Da Club .

– bigoted

Name a single ACT politician who has or had publicly called non-whites as niggers?

– elderly white men

Toad, age is irrelevant in Politics, it is the political philosophy that counts. Those elderly white men from ACT that you envy are people who are self-made. That’s better than elderly white ladies who are losers from the Greens such as Jeanette Fitzimon & Catherine Delahunty. What have they achieved in life? None. All they have done in life has been to try & muzzle productive/business people in the society by making more laws to prohibit them from doing this or that, which doesn’t hurt/violate rights of free people .
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June 1, 2011 2:54pm
laworder

nasska, that is a good point.

Perhaps the level of restriction on what retailers/ good the cards can be used for could be set according to whether the user concerned has any track record of previous alcohol/drug related issues. Certainly it wont be easy devising a system that stops the state from funding substance abuse without making life harder for genuine beneficiaries, but I do think it is worth trying

Regards
Peter Jenkins
see http://www.sensiblesentencing.org.nz
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June 1, 2011 2:54pm
nasska

KevinH

There is a saying amongst those people who have worked with the unfortunates you mention. “Morons beget morons”. It’s very sad & very true.
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June 1, 2011 2:55pm
KiwiGreg

@ laworder if true your flatmate was mad. If she goes on welfare (or even if she doesnt) there is nothing to stop here naming him as the father and collecting Child Support from him (or rather have the state collect it). You can’t contract out.

@ Kevinh – you left out – they get pregnant by accident. The condom burst, she was taking antibiotics which stopped the efficacy of the pill, they were drunk and just risked it.
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June 1, 2011 2:56pm
Bevan

Just when I thought the ACT Party couldn’t get more dominated by wealthy, bigoted, elderly white men, Bob “Left Testicle” Clarkson joins up.

So what you’re sayin is that even ACT has more balls than the Green party.
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June 1, 2011 3:01pm
Elaycee

@ Jeez Toad. I really think you’re being a bit rough with Bob Clarkson. He did NZ politics a massive favour when he won the Tauranga seat from that nasty, venal pensioner, Winston Peters.
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June 1, 2011 3:05pm
immigant

1st hand experiance on deadbeat sluts on DPB.

I worked in Welly in 2010. Went to a big houseparty in the Hutt.
Out of the 7 girls under 25 there, getting drunk and fawning over me and my black lowered and tinted 98 Nissan Primera,
Only 2 were single and had no kids. The other five not working but very… how you say in English…. ‘ready for love’.

There you go.
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June 1, 2011 3:08pm
wat dabney

mikenmild,

“I’m not talking about students or setting minimum rate of pocket money for mowing my lawn.”

The reality is that there is no such easy distinction between trivial work and what you might consider a “real job.” It is a spectrum from highly-skilled well-paid careers at one end, through low-paid jobs taken as the first rung on the ladder, to convenient but low-value part-time and casual shelf-stacking work at the other; perhaps finishing with pensioners who take little jobs as much for the companionship and to keep active as for the money.

All these different choices made by millions of individuals in their own best interests, and whose priorities and circumstances you know absolutely nothing about.

Yet here you are, blithely telling us that you plan to coercively prevent people from taking jobs which don’t meet your arbitrary criterion.
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June 1, 2011 3:14pm
hj

Boris Debries:

““If councils overall reject the option that is available to them, then I think we’ll feed that into the constitutional debate because it may be at that point that we say look, the real flaw in this provision is that Maori as a minority are totally dependent on the goodwill of the majority and shouldn’t councils be obliged to introduce this into their electoral system if Maori want it,” Mr de Bres says.
http://www.waateablogspot.com
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June 1, 2011 3:16pm
mikenmild

wat

All I’m really asking is that if it’s ok to set some minimum standards for employees should that include a minimum wage?
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June 1, 2011 3:23pm
nasska

Elaycee

Usually after reading his comments I’m not certain that Toad & I live on the same planet & consequently I get few opportunities to agree with him. On this occasion he’s pretty close to the mark.

ACT would instinctively know that their appeal to Labour’s natural voters is limited in the extreme. Ditto with the Greens. They will know by now via polls that their appeal to women is zero. They are doing a piss poor job attracting the interest of “white van man” & certainly any beneficiary who signs up has a death wish.

It would be educational for the rest of us & maybe for ACT officials themselves if they sat down & identified just who they want on board before they alienate 99% of the electorate.

To this end assembling a Dad’s Army of recycled has beens & wankers seems counter productive.
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June 1, 2011 3:25pm
Elaycee

@ Nasska… 3.25pm.

Touche!
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June 1, 2011 3:27pm
Manolo

Labour and Labour lite agree again: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10729416
Two airheads voice their support for MMP.
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June 1, 2011 3:32pm
starboard

and fawning over me and my black lowered and tinted 98 Nissan Primera,”

..Id keep that to myself…how embarrassing.
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June 1, 2011 3:49pm
Manolo

..and my black lowered and tinted 98 Nissan Primera

Arrgghhhhhhh.
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June 1, 2011 3:57pm
TripeWryter

So …

One person knows one person who wanted to get pregnant so she could get the DPB. I’m surprised the guy went ahead with it, since he would be looking at the next 16 or so years of paying liable parent contributions. But then again, IRD has never been very good at getting the money out of absent parents, particularly if they skip the ditch.

Another, who worked at WINZ said he could name hundreds who told him specifically that they got pregnant so to get the DPB. That does surprise me.

David Garrett says: “Anyone who DOESN’T think a small minority of women chose the DPB as a lifestyle has had a very limited life experience.”

I don’t have your life experience, David, but I am a doubter. I have been on the DPB, and particularly after Ruth Richardson’s Budget of 1991, it was pretty basic. That’s OK, I was grateful (and remain so) for what I got.

But I can’t imagine why any girl would want to look on it as a lifestyle choice, particularly if she is a teenager.

Laworder advocates vouchers: why? You punish the majority for the stupidity and thoughtlessness of a few.
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June 1, 2011 4:09pm
Pete George

But I can’t imagine why any girl would want to look on it as a lifestyle choice, particularly if she is a teenager.

It’s not just the money, and more often than not it’s not the money at all. Sadly, some want to have a baby to have someone to love and have someone that loves them. A pity they can’t find a prtner that fits the criteria first.

As per the gold diggers I don’t how many love seekers there are but it happens.
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June 1, 2011 4:18pm
nasska

TripeWryter

For better or worse Lindsay Mitchell has identified young girls who become solo mothers through accident or design as likely to be long term DPB recipients. You correctly pointed out earlier that women who have solo parenthood forced on them later in life usually come off the benefit relatively early as circumstances change.

That is why the benefit was introduced & few people grudge the assistance given.

Most commenters on this blog don’t extend the welcome mat to career solo mothers who do exist, albeit in uncertain numbers, & are on the DPB for the long haul. They are simply gaming the system & taxpayers don’t like it.
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June 1, 2011 4:26pm
Pete George

They are simply gaming the system & taxpayers don’t like it.

It seems to have a much worse image than potential taxpayers gaming the tax system, that’s something that’s openly promoted, bragged about, and done by far more than poor young women stuck on the DPB with bugger all prospects of getting out of the whole they find themselves in (and maybe dug a bit themselves).
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June 1, 2011 4:33pm
Falafulu Fisi

Here is another good hip hop from 50 Cent (from “Get Rich or Die Tryin” CD) that I think, Toad might love to listen to.

P.I.M.P
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June 1, 2011 4:34pm
starboard

“But I can’t imagine why any girl would want to look on it as a lifestyle choice, particularly if she is a teenager”

Look Tripe it happens ok , for a lot of them its an easy way out…sit at home all day watchin soaps , eating maccas , rootin , smokin, while the baby sits it the corner passive smoking and sucking on fizzy drinks. Is used to own a small business years ago here in chc , many of my customers were solos on the DPB and they were scum , I had first hand viewing of their lifestyle because my work was inside their houses ( paid for by winz of course ) I used to listen to their discussions , phonecalls ( yes Im a nosy bastard ) take it from me…it was their chosen lifestyle.

“Laworder advocates vouchers: why? You punish the majority for the stupidity and thoughtlessness of a few”

Vouchers are a great idea. Im paying for it so I want some bloody accountability. Vouchers for rent , food , electricity , anything left over they can have in cash…if you dont like it get a job.
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June 1, 2011 4:36pm
RightNow

The Ten Cannots
(by William J. H. Boetcker, originally published 1916,)

You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot help little men by tearing down big men.
You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot establish sound security on borrowed money.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn.
You cannot build character and courage by destroying men’s initiative and independence.
And you cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they can and should do for themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._H._Boetcker
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June 1, 2011 4:38pm
RightNow

“You punish the majority for the stupidity and thoughtlessness of a few” – the welfare state explained in one sentence.
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June 1, 2011 4:39pm
Manolo

many of my customers were solos on the DPB and they were scum..

And we do not need more scum. We have enough of the bastards, already.
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June 1, 2011 4:39pm
Put it away

Toad, you allege someone else is “bigoted” and yet at the same time you think there is some reason to mention their gender and age? And undoubtedly fail to see the irony.
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June 1, 2011 4:48pm
Bevan

Two airheads voice their support for MMP.

Um Manolo – what do you think Don Brash’s opinion of MMP is? You know, the party leader not standing for any electorate seat therefore can only get in on the Party List…
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June 1, 2011 5:15pm
wat dabney

“All I’m really asking is that if it’s ok to set some minimum standards for employees should that include a minimum wage?”

Firstly, in the hands of bureaucracies, those “minimum” standards end up being anything but minimum: simple tasks that any one of use would happily perform at home are deemed unsafe in the workplace.

The burden of regulatory compliance costs means that our salaries are lower than they would otherwise be (in the same way that compulsory holiday allowances and pension contributions imply a lower salary.)

If you then impose a significant minimum rate on that previously flexible salary component you inevitably render a certain number of jobs no longer viable.

So the answer to your question is really the same as the one I gave previously; it’s about putting people out of work when you didn’t oughta.
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June 1, 2011 5:26pm
nasska

All Hurricanes games will, from now on, be shown on the SKY Gay Adult Channel. A spokesman said:

“Watching 15 arseholes get hammered for 90 minutes was not considered appropriate for prime time TV.”
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June 1, 2011 6:46pm
Steve

Starboard is is correct. Why do taxpayers have to provide for the dysfunctional dropkicks?
I looked at my payslip tax content today. What did I get for my PAYE? Then I look at Tax payed this year. It is only June, 2 months into the financial year.
Phark!
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June 1, 2011 6:48pm
lilman

woof woof
so right about the canes
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June 1, 2011 7:02pm
starboard

Steve..just smile and wave..it will be alright.
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June 1, 2011 7:02pm
adze

I wonder if introducing competition for ACC is the right idea. I mean, I can see what they are trying to achieve, but I wonder if doing something along the lines of the Pharmac model (a sort of Uber-Insurance-Broker) is a better idea?
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June 1, 2011 7:17pm
Viking2

Ring ring, ring ring;
Hullo (wife answering the phone)
Cultured Indian Male voice; I am ringing to talk to you about your computer.
wife; how do you know I’ve got a computer?
click. Cultured Indian Male hangs up.

Is the message getting through or was he a learner?

Fair Go had a session on them tonight.
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June 1, 2011 8:21pm
Viking2

dze (583) Says:
June 1st, 2011 at 7:17 pm

I wonder if introducing competition for ACC is the right idea. I mean, I can see what they are trying to achieve, but I wonder if doing something along the lines of the Pharmac model (a sort of Uber-Insurance-Broker) is a better idea?

Vero have already said today that the industry won’t be interested in the model proposed.
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June 1, 2011 8:23pm
adze

V2;
You mean the one as proposed by government, or the Pharmac model?
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June 1, 2011 8:40pm
Viking2

Driving around today I pondered this idea.
The govt. should actually increase the ETS. Heresy you scream. Well yes but no and not for the reasons the greenies and all would promote.
Todays thread is all about complaining about the tax that goes to those who bludge. The problem is we don’t make recovering our tax back from them a high enough priority. Many collect as much or more than others earn but finish up not paying tax on their unearned income whilst others never pay tax either legally or illegally.( like the Chinese painters, restaurateurs etc.)
ETS is a tax based on energy consumed for its the use of energy that creates the CO2 in theory. Using energy efficiently is good and price determines the efficiency that the user will promote. There is no escaping the use of energy and so its an all encompassing method of taxation. Indeed Dr Brash at one point several years back suggested that we could consider using fuel tax as a method of controlling the economy instead of interest rates. Reason being that fuel is used by everyone whereas interest bearing mortgages are not. This made good sense to myself and even more so now people are starting to realise the GDP is a useless measure of the nations financial well being. Now I’m no economist but have thought this for 30 years or more. Decent flood or storm and it raises our GDP, but it doesn’t raise our wealth, and that is what we should be concerned about. Raising the Nations wealth. One wonders how much better off of the brains trust that call themselves economists thought for themselves rather than just blindly followed orthodox theories that don’t work.

That aside, we should consider raising the ETS further and reducing even more levels of taxation on incomes. Reduces waste, evens out the burden of taxation so that no one can escape paying, efficient way to control energy use using a price signal, no way to avoid the taxation other than not using energy. One caveat though. The extra money raised goes to be used in NZ and is not gifted to various industries and agriculture enterprises nor to anyone oversea’s for any carbon scheme.

Maybe Smith was thinking further ahead than all the rest of us.
Ahh shit no. He’s not that clever.
But some things that we can be sure of.
Kyoto is dead and so is everything to do with greenhouse gases etc.
The ETS will not be removed in the next 50 years. Taxes never are.
Land taxes target only those that own land e.g. rates. so have a limited supplier.
So the option is to make the ETS work for our best interests
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June 1, 2011 8:47pm
Viking2

Another Nick Smith disaster.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/5088874/ACC-strategy-pleases-no-one

When will we get rid of this clown??
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June 2, 2011 6:47am
Manolo

Do as I say, not as I do: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/56035.html
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June 2, 2011 7:12am
Manolo

Another Nick Smith disaster. When will we get rid of this clown?

Never, unfortunately. As a Blue-Green fifth-columnist, Smith is the new face of Labour lite.
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June 2, 2011 7:13am
thedavincimode

V2, have you been smoking the silly magpie’s carpet?

But you aren’t the first think of this. Gaffey is already into it to fund the R&D incentive in case you’ve forgotten, it sort of goes like this:

Step 1: complain that excluding farmers from ETS is unfair from everyone else that is in ETS
Step 2: put farmers in ETS to raise $800m
Step 3: take $800m ETS lolly and give to business
Step 4: business gives $800m to accountants to reclassify expenditure, that would have been spent anyway, to qualify for R&D handout
Step 5: pretend that this is fair to exisiting ETS taxpayers
Step 6: because whole concept was completely fucked and uncontrollable and never thought through, wind up giving away $1,600m
Step 7: increase tax on top 10% of taxpayers to cover the extra $800m so that they can pay their fair share and help those who are less well off.

After all, why on earth would you raise a tax and limit it to the purposes it was raised for in the first place. That would be crazy!
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June 2, 2011 8:02am
Longknives

Is that what I claimed Tripe? You are losing this argument badly if you have to resort to putting words into my mouth…
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June 2, 2011 9:48am

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