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June 19, 2011 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 19 June 2011

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General Debate

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Pete George

I’m really feeling for the people of Christchurch. My son has just come back from visiting friends there, their whole lives are engulfed by earthquake considerations.

“Here’s your bed, here’s your emergency exit path”.

Going out to “relax” they look for the safest looking pub. Back to basic, continual, survival instincts.

Christchurch, laments
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June 19, 2011 8:06am
Bobbyisback

Stop being negative.

New Zealand has great positives to work on and celebrate such as Hone losing!
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June 19, 2011 8:10am
Pete George

McCarten’s hypocrisy.

Hats off to Harawira for honourable choice

I’ve always resented MPs who change parties during a term of parliament then claim they can still keep their jobs. They shouldn’t.

Maybe I have an aversion to creeps who keep their seats because when I was Alliance president one of our MPs, Alamein Kopu, jumped ship and gave Jenny Shipley a one-seat majority.

What about “creeps” who hissy fit and leave the party that got them into parliament? “Creeps” who don’t stick out their full three contract with their voters?

What Harawira is doing is not honorable at all. Neither is McCarten’s column.
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June 19, 2011 8:13am
Inventory2

And yet Pete, there is still a real sense of resolve down there. Cantabrians are tough buggers. We helped dig liquefaction for a while yesterday morning, and the sentiment was that every barrow- load moved was a barrow-load nearer to normality.

Kia kaha Christchurch

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2011/06/broken-but-still-beating.html
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June 19, 2011 8:17am
Pete George

Yes, I know I2, but it’s bloody hard on them, to lift themselves and clean up yet again not knowing if the worst is over yet or not.

And unfortunately the tough buggers are diminishing in numbers, it’s chipping away at resolve, especially families with young kids.
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June 19, 2011 8:23am
starboard

yes it is hard going. Im generally pretty good at coping with lifes ” challenges ” but Im feelin it…and Ive come back from a month abroad..dunno how some people are coping and I feel there are going to be casualities in various forms eventually.
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June 19, 2011 8:35am
Inventory2

You’re right starboard; but it was amazing to see so many people just getting stuck in yesterday, and doing what had to be done. The volume of liquefaction out in New Brighton where we were helping was hard to believe.
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June 19, 2011 9:13am
David Farrar

David should be more careful about who has his iPad.
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June 19, 2011 9:15am
MT_Tinman

For every person with problems there are a hundred prepared and able to help – something I tried (and failed) to get through to the Stuff reporter last week.

Most of Christchurch has returned to near normality.

The central city is closed and people now don’t consider it, they simply go elsewhere.

The general conversation starter is “How is your house?” but the conversations seldom are a contest to have the worst damage but mainly a “A few cracks, some broken things but We’re OK, how’s yours?”.

Often the few cracks are big ones, the broken things half the bloody house’s fittings and breakables but few worry, it’s a fact of life.

Most of us, well most of those living in the real world, have simply moved on, making allowances for the fact that the earth will continue to move and trying to move with it.

People still go to work each day, albeit in a different place, still go to pubs and restaurants, still watch their children play sport on cold winter Saturday mornings, still play with the kids in local parks, still drive atrociously and ignorantly about the town and still live their lives as they wish.

Mainly though we need to see a cessation of slime (and I2) led doom and gloom, of promoting a view that Christchurch is lying on it’s back, legs pointing skyward and the vulture is circling above.

The city is still one of the best places in New Zealand, naturally beautiful with plenty of warm friendly people to welcome you (as long as you’ve left the bloody pushbike at home).

Good bars, good food, fantastic scenery.

Christchurch is open for business, spread the word.
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June 19, 2011 9:16am
mikenmild

While I don’t agree with much of Harawira’s political outlook; what he is doing in fighting a by-election is honourable. He has recognised, unlike many other defecting MPs, that he owed his place in Parliament to his party. Leave the party = seek a new mandate.
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June 19, 2011 9:19am
Manolo

The thug Harawira courting the gay vote: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10733166
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June 19, 2011 9:23am
Elaycee

Renowned economics guru Matt McCarten said on Q&A this morning that the earthquake will cost $NZ80 Billion.

He sure has a financial track record to support this estimation – after all, he is the same idiot who failed to pass on Unite employee contributions held in trust (PAYE).

He should stick to giving advice to Hone’s MAMA Party – at least there’ll be no damage when he buggers that.
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June 19, 2011 9:25am
starboard

well said MT _Tinman…
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June 19, 2011 9:25am
starboard

Elaycee I think mcfarten the embezzler said e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-eighty b-b-b-b-billion
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June 19, 2011 9:28am
Inventory2

@ Tinman; apologies if you feel I’m too much of a prophet of doom. Where I’m staying in Fendalton it’s life as normal (except for only drinking boiled water and only flushing the loo for solids), but we,ve spent much of our time here in Shirley and New Brighton where it’s pretty grim. Maybe it’s different for those who are living here all the time and going about their daily routines; as a visitor, I find it all a bit discomforting and sobering.
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June 19, 2011 9:28am
mikenmild

I’m going to go into bat for Harawira here. As I said above, I don’t share his political views. What I do appreciate, though, is the opportunity he brings to present something different for the political discourse. In that respect, he is a lot more useful than two dozen National or Labour backbenchers of whom no one has ever heard. This has been one of the main benefits of MMP, giving a national voice to a much wider range of views.
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June 19, 2011 9:32am
starboard

stop trolling mikenmild..you’re worse than me…
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June 19, 2011 9:34am
Elaycee

Wow! Also on Q&A, Peters was adamant that there was no suggestion (“it isn’t NZF Policy”) to lower GST to 10%.

Just downloaded from the NZ First website:

“New Zealand First will… Lower GST to 10% and introduce a tax free threshold of $5200 (first $100 earned per week)”

So Peters doesn’t know what his own website says? Or he doesn’t know what NZF policy is? Or tells porkies? Mmmmm….

http://www.nzfirst.org.nz/
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June 19, 2011 9:37am
starboard

wheres the 150 grand peters ?? eh? eh ?
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June 19, 2011 9:39am
mikenmild

starboard

It’s not trolling; it’s called a point of view.
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June 19, 2011 9:41am
Pete George

I’ve just watched W Peters on Q&A. He was like a punch drunk boxer trying to make an old age comeback. It looks like he’s lost it.

That was the strongest reason I’ve seen yet that voters need a real alternative to what’s currently on offer.
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June 19, 2011 9:44am
mikenmild

And starboard, I think you should stop mocking McCarten’s physical disability.
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June 19, 2011 9:46am
starboard

yes PG I wasnt impressed with him…all over the place like a mad womans s***.. .he will be back but he wont be much as JJ just said on Q&A.
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June 19, 2011 9:47am
MyNameIsJack

Yes, IV2, we DO have a sense of resolve.

BUT it is undermined when we hear the Fat Controller waffle on with nothing to say. If he knows something, tell us. If he knows nothing, then shut the fuck up.

The latest from the Fat Controller is we will import tradies form Focking Ireland! Seems we don’t have enough tradies here.

How mnay months since September?Since we knew there would be an enormous rebuild? Where are the traing programmes for our youth? Surely pre-apprenticeship course could have been offered and completed by now.
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June 19, 2011 9:58am
starboard

..mikenmild..are you a school teacher by any chance?
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June 19, 2011 9:58am
mikenmild

starboard
No, but good manners cost nothing!
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June 19, 2011 10:00am
nasska

Reading a few of the recent comments on decline of the mental powers of The Pensioner Peters reminded me that we have heard little of the exploits of that other darling of the blue rinse set. I refer of course to Dr Brash. A couple of moons have passed since there were new disclosures of galloping infidelity and/or love children.

Has the Viagra lost its effect or has ACT’s publicity team succumbed to old age & incontinence?
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June 19, 2011 10:00am
flipper

Thanks to all for reporting on Q+A.
The fact they apparently featured McCarten and Peters says much about the idots who run the programme – from the researchers to the grossly over inflated Holmes and Espiner et al.
No longer watch it.
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June 19, 2011 10:10am
krazykiwi

hubbers pointed out that the leftist rag The Guardian is hemorrhaging money and readership, possibly forcing it out of print. This ‘newspaper’, and I use that term lightly, has been the source of more shill, alarmist global warming stories that I’ve had hot dinners. Perhaps even the left are tired of the alarmist’s lies.
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June 19, 2011 10:15am
holysheet

Who in their right mind would believe any thing winston says? My dad always said “never trust a maori with a briefcase”
Matt McCarten is in the same boat. How can you forget to pay your PAYE deductions and then have the gall to front on TV and spout on about others.
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June 19, 2011 10:15am
krazykiwi

@holysheet – he didn’t forget. By his on admission he deliberately withheld PAYE payments from the IRD
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June 19, 2011 10:21am
Pauleastbay

Nasska

I’m sure Don will get wheeled out for some revelation regarding benefecaries and Maori’s to appease the 12 voters I have heard about and my neighbour whose convinced Don is the Messiah

Converstion with my neighbour:

Me: Well what is Don going to do other than bang on about welfare and Maoris?

Neighbour :He’ll be working on something, they will have some policy later , he’s got my vote anyway.

Me: ( Crys out loud and goes and has a cup of tea)
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June 19, 2011 10:24am
joana

To give credit where credit is due , I thought Gerry was quite good on Q+A.
Tinman and others..Everyone’s reaction in CHCH is quite different. There is no ONE reaction.
I really admire the young students. On about the Tuesday or Wednesday night , there were students/girls out in a caravan at night in some of the worst affected areas giving out hot soup to people without power , water etc. They have tests and exams at this time yet they still turned out on Saturday to shovel silt. I hope the young man who started the student army one day really gets recognized for his efforts. The students are a terrific example of what a group of people can do , when they truly have a great leader.
All three commentators on Q+A said Winston will be back. Many people are rejecting what he calls ”the politics of the few” which National promotes. Some of us are old enough to remember the 80s when the Auckland cabal stripped the country of assets. This made a few men very wealthy. I doubt whether any of them still live in NZ. If this is allowed to happen again , the vast majority of NZers will be condemed to poverty.
I didn’t hang around to watch the financial guy. How many are in prison are so much money has been stolen from frugal NZers? Oh that’s right , white collar crims don’t go to prison in NZ..they usually go to Aussie to do it all again.
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June 19, 2011 10:28am
starboard

“my neighbour whose convinced Don is the Messiah”

hang on..theres too many messiahs…I thought harawira was the holy one…
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June 19, 2011 10:30am
mikenmild

Don the Messiah!
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June 19, 2011 10:32am
nasska

Pauleastbay

Strangely enough the way things were shaping up my vote was heading very much in ACT’s direction. I think that Dr Brash has much left to offer NZ in the way of financial nous & I was to the right side within National before they lurched to the left.

Then the unthinkable happened & John Banks was accepted as candidate for ACT’S only possible electorate seat & I would consign my vote to whatever replaces the Bill & Ben Party before I would in any way endorse the wanker that is Banks.

For some reason the failed MP, failed talk back host & failed mayor resonates with some Auckland voters. South of the Bombay Hills, however, that tolerance of smarmy failure doesn’t connect. Down my way ACT voters are split over Banks’ candidacy……some don’t like it & the rest hate it.
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June 19, 2011 10:34am
Pete George

I think Coddington get’s it right on Darren Hughes:

‘Media victim’ shows gall by blaming his accuser

I, too, was one of Hughes’ supporters but my sympathy for him as the underdog let me down. Hughes’ arrogance, his refusal to take responsibility for his poor judgment on the night in question and lack of mea culpa leaves serious questions about his suitability as an MP.

Consider what the police actually said. The complaint against the former list MP did not reach the “evidential threshold” required to bring charges.

And how did Hughes respond? With a statement saying “to be falsely accused of something I did not do, let alone a serious crime, has been one of the most challenging experiences in my life”.

For all the talking up of Hughes’ potential he has dealt with this very poorly.

“Wasn’t my fault” wears thinner than a Warehouse negligée.
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June 19, 2011 10:36am
tom hunter

I know this has been out for several days but this obituary for the recent death of a British WWII veteran is quite a read:

Patrick Leigh Fermor

Paddy was – there is no other word for it – a hero. He lived the strenuous life. There was in him an exuberance that could not be contained. Christopher Marlowe, who was of a similar temperament, managed to make it through the King’s School in Canterbury, but Paddy did not. There was some hanky-panky with the daughter of a greengrocer, but that cannot have been the whole story. “He is a dangerous mixture of sophistication and recklessness,” his housemaster wrote in an official report, “which makes one anxious about his influence on other boys.” I would have been anxious myself.
…
During the war, Paddy fought in Albania, Greece, and on Crete. After being evacuated to Cairo, he joined the Special Operations Executive and spent much of the remainder of the war running guerrilla operations in the mountains of Crete. He left the island in May, 1944 under truly exceptional circumstances. On 26 April 1944, on a bet made with friends back in Cairo, Paddy, W. Stanley Moss, and a group of Cretan shepherds kidnapped General Karl Heinrich Georg Ferdinand Kreipe, the German commander on the island.

Indiana Jones was not based on this guy but he could have been. You can also read other obituaries from the likes of Chris Hitchens here, fourth link down under Articles of Note.
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June 19, 2011 10:36am
backster

JACK…Much of the misery and defeatism in Christchurch is engendered by Dalziel and the little fat guy Clayton something I think, who do little but loudly foment discontent in the Eastern suburbs.

ELAYCEE..Winston tell porkies!….How dare you suggest that.
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June 19, 2011 10:37am
mikenmild

nasska
I think ACT condemned itself to irrelevancy some years ago. It started out with bold ambitions, feeling that they would be a significant force. After Prebble left, and under Hide, they fell into an eccentric rut and backed themselves into a corner with ‘perk busting’ and being ‘tough’ on crime. It was no surprise when they turned out to have feet of clay on those issues. Now, with retreads like Banks and Brash they really have no hope.
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June 19, 2011 10:39am
nasska

mikenmild

I agree with you on this. They lost their way after Prebble left & from then on the emphasis was on survival rather than solid, coherent policies. Hide’s exposure as a perk taker rather than a perk buster was the effective death knell.

Despite this, their certain demise as a political party will leave a vacuum in NZ politics & many right leaning voters will be disenfranchised.
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June 19, 2011 10:50am
Owen McShane

Surely the railway wagons are insignificant compared to having our fish caught on Chinese boats manned by Chinese Crew and processed in China and then sold here as NZ produce – while so many Maori youth are unemployed! And a Whaling Joint Venture partner! Read on:

“While iwi own almost 40 percent of New Zealand’s entire quota, instead of providing employment opportunities on fishing boats and in processing plants for thousands of unemployed Maori, most of the 57 iwi who jointly own the quota use foreign crewed fishing vessels and fish processing factories in China. The ageing fishing boats are manned by crew who are forced to work under sweat-shop conditions earning as little as $65 a week. According to industry sources, the catch is then shipped to China where it is processed using Chinese labour, labelled as produced in New Zealand and sold in our supermarkets – as if it had never left our shores.

The dreadful conditions on these fishing boats came into focus last year when the 38-year-old FCV Oyang 70 sank in August with the loss of 6 lives. That was followed by the sinking of the 31-year-old No 1 Insung in December, with the death of 22 crew. In an exposé in the Sunday Star Times last month, Michael Field outlined how Ngapuhi has a 50/50 joint venture company Northland Deepwater JV Ltd (with an Auckland firm DSM Ltd), which has lobbied to be able to keep using aging foreign vessels. Hawkes Bay’s Ngati Kahungunu now deals through Northland Deepwater, while Tainui and Ngati Porou also use foreign vessels. Under their treaty settlements Maori formed the pan-tribal Aotearoa Fisheries Limited, which has a 50 percent shareholding in Sealord Fisheries, which also uses foreign vessels. The rest of the shares are held by Nissui, a major shareholder in Japan’s Antarctic whaling fleet.[6]

When asked about the foreign vessel scandal, the Minister of Maori Affairs, Pita Sharples said that he was concerned that 60,000 young New Zealanders were out of work, but that he understood the reason iwi weren’t catching their own quota was that “many Maori find it hard to be out for long periods of time away from their whanau”!

Wonder what the Maori battalion would have thought about that! The whole story is here:
http://www.nzcpr.com/weekly281.htm
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June 19, 2011 11:17am
pdm

Holy hell Nasska (795) did you support Looney Len for Mayor of Auckland?
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June 19, 2011 11:18am
mikenmild

Who would have thought it? NZCPR comes out against allowing foreign vessels to fish in NZ waters!
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June 19, 2011 11:21am
Owen McShane

mikenmilksop

Where on Earth does the report say that?
I suppose it takes some measure of skill, determination and bloodymindedness to miss the obvious point.
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June 19, 2011 11:26am
tom hunter

And on a completely different note, take a look at this fantastic little browser application from Primax Studios that enables one to “scale” from the smallest to the largest dimensions simply by shifting the slider back and forth.

Scale of The Universe

My 14 year old son found it on the Web. Music from Mr Ambient himself, Brian Eno. As one of the comments says – “Trippy”.
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June 19, 2011 11:30am
mikenmild

Sorry Owen. I thought the article went like this:
1. Vast amounts of money have gone to Treaty settlements
2. Maori employment remains low
3. The money must have gone to the ‘Maori aristocracy
4. Iwi fisheries quota are being worked by foreign joint venture vessels
5. Foreign fishing vessels employ crews in appalling conditions
6. We should abolish the minimum wage, especially for youth, to ease Maori unemployment
7. Then all NZ workers could enjoy the same working condition as the foreign fishing crews.

Maybe I missed the message.
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June 19, 2011 11:34am
mikenmild

Tom
That’s awesome!
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June 19, 2011 11:42am
Nookin

Owen
The story is scary. It follows a similar theme on Make the Politician Work, where Mallard endorsed imported labour because some jobs (in this case picking asparagus) was beneath the dignity of unemployed New Zealanders. It shows that we have a culture of entitlement that enables some people to sit idly within their own comfort zone and accept welfare (demand welfare?) rather than look for work.
The elite should hang their heads in shame – not only at the exploitation of foreign labour but also at the meek acceptance that it is OK to sit on your chuff and do nothing for fear of becoming homesick.

The fact that politicians are prepared to sit by and watch this happen is an indication of how endemic this culture has become. Labour, the Unions and the Greens will not hesitate to exploit the situation by going on about welfare bashing and baby-eating.

We are not going to eliminate this malaise easily. It seems that some sectors have an interest in perpetuating it. We need a culture shock. We need NZers from both sides of the political spectrum to say that it is not fucking acceptable!
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June 19, 2011 11:50am
nasska

pdm @ 11.18am

Mercifully I didn’t have to pick between either of the no hopers. I live considerably south of Auckland.
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June 19, 2011 11:52am
Nookin

mikenmild

I may have missed the point also, but it seems to me that the article is saying that some people are in a position to create jobs and look after their own but chose not to do so and prefer to utilise their vast resources on joint ventures that offend just about every tenet of labour law in this country. In the mean-time people who need help, and who can be helped, are ignored and allowed to sink deeper into a pit of self-perpetuating helplessness.
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June 19, 2011 11:55am
Manolo

Thank you, Tom. It is brilliant.
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June 19, 2011 11:55am
tom hunter

mikenmild and Manolo (sounds like a TV series!)

Thanks. I figured it’s perfect for an indoors Sunday morning, rather than all the usual discussion about the dross of our political scene. I hope Falufula and a few other like-minded, scientific souls get to see it.
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June 19, 2011 11:56am
Pauleastbay

Tom Hunter

Read “Ill met by Midnight” by W.Stanley Moss,, this is regards the Cretian adventure, ..Fermor was part of this group and he writes the afterword in the Folio Edition.

An iron man in a time of wooden ships
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June 19, 2011 11:59am
Pauleastbay

Nasska says

Then the unthinkable happened & John Banks was accepted as candidate for ACT’S only ………..
………………………………………..
What I really struggle with is that if ACT are the answer why are they not attracting young and vibrant candidates to take them forward.

Presently they look like a party made up of the kids left over after the footy teams have been picked and decided to start their own club.

I would disagree that he (Banksey)was a failed mayor in that looney len brought a constituency of hand fed labour voters from south Auckland into the election, who were always going to vote for this idiot who has promised them everything for nothing .
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June 19, 2011 12:08pm
tom hunter

PaulEB

Yah. I saw it mentioned in the piece, and it was even turned into a 1950’s (?) movie starring Dirk Bogard as Moss. Hell of a tale, but what really fascinated me were the mentions of his travel books and the wide-ranging admiration for his prose – not to mention translating various works of English into Greek. No wonder dinners with him were interesting.
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June 19, 2011 12:10pm
dog_eat_dog

Paul;

There is some new blood coming into ACT as members, but the party has to decide to put them somewhere on the list. That will be the clincher.
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June 19, 2011 12:13pm
Pauleastbay

Tom Hunter

I’ve got his travel books as well, they havn’t got the following the subject matter deserves as they were written 50 years after he did the walks but still a good read.

Evidently he was the most politically uncorrect dinner guest – made Prince Phillip look subtle, .. great fun to be around
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June 19, 2011 12:15pm
Viking2

starboard (2,021) Says:
June 19th, 2011 at 9:34 am

stop trolling mikenmild..you’re worse than me…

starboard. I happen to agree with MM this time. MM’s learning s-l-o-w-l-y.

and MM the Nzcpr article is not about youth rates but about why we have so many Maori impoverished when they have been given all the quota on the basis that they would use the quota to assist with the employment of those same maori. That was the argument then when it was being given, but, its not convenient when the time comes so they employ others and you and others pay welfare to support those same young Maori.
Double dipping in Maoridom.

Re Winston.
Stop watching stuff with jaundiced eyes and listen carefully to what is said. Espiner rightly got a spanking. He like most interviewers only wanted his preconceived answers. Winston like Muldoon won’t go for that and the second that the interviewer gets shallow or makes a wrong statement then he gets canned. e.g. take asset sales. What peters said if you listened when asked about selling Kiwibank was this.
If KB want more capital we can do that by selling extra shares, i.e. shares not already owned by Govt. to raise extra capital. i.e. Kiwibank can issue new shares. Price will lower but that’s ok.No issue there.
what Key and co propose is to sell the Govt.’s already existing shares down. i.e. sell without generating any new capital for the companies.
Now personally I happen to consider in this that WP is right. The company can raise more capital for its use rather than ask the tax payer to front up via the govt piggy bank. The govt. gets to keep its shareholding for Kiwi’s and benefits from the better performance of the companies.

win win all round and a lot less for the sharebrokers and money community.
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June 19, 2011 12:27pm
BlueGriffon

Why are we paying for a 71 year old convicted fraudster to do a law degree:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10733128

He would never get approved to practice so why let him do the degree. Does he get the pension, a student loan and a student allowance???
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June 19, 2011 12:36pm
nasska

Pauleastbay

ACT has missed the bus by not carrying on with the momentum & publicity that Dr Brash’s take over of the party offered. They had the chance to tempt some new blood & Dr Brash’s financial credentials could have carried them a long way. Instead they roped in the likes of Banks & Clarkson who are rightly seen as a Dad’s Army as opposed to a fresh political force.

Loopy Len used his South Auckland constituency to help trump Banks but the latter ran a piss poor campaign & it showed in the results. From memory he lost by about 65K votes & that is a hell of a pasting. I don’t think he was as popular as he dreamt but it hasn’t bruised his ego an iota. He will have learnt nothing & that as much as anything will turn off voters in the coming election.
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June 19, 2011 12:40pm
adze

Tom, thanks for the link. I’ve forwarded it to a bunch of people. Nicely done!
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June 19, 2011 12:56pm
Pauleastbay

Nasska

All good points..

I think they would have been better getting a decent politician to lead and have Brash attached. There is no doubting his (Don’s) financial acumen, hes just not a politicians ring piece and ACT will suffer because of this.

You will never bruise Banksey’s ego. He is a natural politician , they don’t have doubt or embarrassment like real human beings.

Look at Loony len, caught with his hand in the till – no worries -he just rightfully took a punt that the media wouldn’t put any pressure on and carried on like nothing happened. Toe rag that he is
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June 19, 2011 12:58pm
reid

Why are we paying for a 71 year old convicted fraudster to do a law degree:

Probably for the same reason we allocate 15% of Victoria Law School places to Maori regardless of their grades and also pay for their fees, as well.

To make us all feel warm in our tummies.
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June 19, 2011 1:10pm
dime

gotta feel for the people of Christchurch… BUT

im over this “we are tough down here” bullshit.

“cantabs are tough” – no. new zealanders are tough. any of our cities would react the same way. we would get through it.
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June 19, 2011 1:10pm
mikenmild

Viking2

I guess what annoyed me most about the article was its conflation of so many erroneous point.

But, just to take the point about Treaty settlements, the general tenor seems to be: How come we’ve made over these billions of assets to iwi and their people are still so disadvantaged economically?

Well, I guess that argument might have some validity if the asset transfer to Maori had been in proportion to their population. 15-20% of the nation’s wealth and you could expect them to make a huge difference. Not that I am arguing for that, but the Treaty settlements have been pretty modest in proportion to what would be required for these iwi to be capable of looking after all their people. Like any other groups, they have made their share of mistakes, even fraud, etc, but overall most of the iwi seem to be dong pretty well in leveraging their assets into ongoing economic development.
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June 19, 2011 1:48pm
Nookin

Mikenmild
You talk as though treaty settlements involve separatism. There is no intention to transfer a percentage of wealth in proportion to population and the idea is silly. Maori still have the benefit of the “retained wealth”. Quota enables Maori to create jobs in the fishing industry. They have chosen not to do that.
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June 19, 2011 1:55pm
wat dabney

The fallout continues from the exposure of the Greenpeace activist employed as IPCC lead-author and citing his own worthless Greenpeace fantasy as evidence for absurd policy prescription.

“Putting a guy from Greenpeace in charge of writing the supposedly neutral, scientifically-based report on which governments are going to base their energy policy is like putting Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in charge of a report entitled Whither Israel?…

…The Man Made Global Warming industry is a crock, a scam on an epic scale, fed by the world’s biggest outbreak of mass hysteria, stoked by politicians dying for an excuse to impose more tax and regulation on us while being seen to “care” about an issue of pressing urgency, fuelled by the shrill lies and tear-jerking propaganda of activists possessed of no understanding of the real world other than a chippy instinctive hatred of capitalism, given a veneer of scientific respectability by post-normal scientists who believe their job is to behave like politicians rather than dispassionate seekers-after-truth, cheered on by rent-seeking businesses, financed by the EU, the UN and the charitable foundations of the guilt-ridden rich, and promoted at every turn by schoolteachers, college lecturers, organic muesli packets, Walkers crisps, the BBC, CNBC, Al Gore, the Prince Of Wales, David Suzuki, the British Antarctic Survey, Barack Obama, David Cameron and Knut – the late, dyslexic-challenging, baby polar bear, formerly of Berlin Zoo…”

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100092809/greenpeace-and-the-ipcc-time-surely-for-a-climate-masada/
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June 19, 2011 2:05pm
mikenmild

Nookin

Maori have indeed created jobs for their people in the fishing industry. What amused me most about the point was the implication that Maori joint ventures should be held to a standard that other NZ joint ventures do not have to meet. I think the fishing vessel conditions are disgraceful. But I’m not gong to pretend that only some of the NZ partners are at fault.
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June 19, 2011 2:11pm
nickb

wow, such economic insight:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5164248/Hone-Harawiras-work-for-dole-call
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June 19, 2011 2:16pm
Pete George

mikenmild at 9:19 am: While I don’t agree with much of Harawira’s political outlook; what he is doing in fighting a by-election is honourable.

I don’t think to was honorable to bail out of the party that got him into parliament and who people voted for as much as him.

I don’t think it was honourable to take his ex-party’s electorate infrastructure.

It is honourable to fulfill three year contracts.
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June 19, 2011 2:18pm
bereal

i note that certain correspondents above opine that ACT have, “No hope.” in the forthcomming election.
They predict its, “Certain demise as a political party.” and,
“With retards like Banks and Brash they really have no hope.”
These pundits are wrong because, Banks will win Epsom. Brash will perform in the leaders debates. They will have a
simple message of ambition for NZ Inc. They will provide an alternative to the ‘smile and wave, borrow
$300 million per week policy we have under National.
Mr Big Hair, United Future, has shown how one good performance in a TV debate can sway many many sheeple.
The campaign has not yet started. When it does i predict that the likes of mikenmild and nasska will quickly
change their tune.
“No hope.”
“Certain demise”
Wanna bet ?
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June 19, 2011 2:21pm
reid

V2 @ 12:27, agree re: that approach to KB. You’re quite right it’s capital they need. They did an NZ Post Capital Note issue a few years ago which raised $50m but no way can they break into commercial without much more than they currently have…

But, just to take the point about Treaty settlements, the general tenor seems to be: How come we’ve made over these billions of assets to iwi and their people are still so disadvantaged economically?

Well, I guess that argument might have some validity if the asset transfer to Maori had been in proportion to their population.

mm I don’t see why. The argument is surely: whatever they have got, have they used it wisely? “Wisely” in this case being defined as maximising employment amongst Maori (who incidentally used to be reknowned fishermen didn’t they?). There is nothing more mana enhancing than supporting yourself and if you have one, your family, with your own hard work. Repeat nothing matches that, over a lifetime. Conversely there is nothing more mana reducing than not working to support yourself and/or your family instead receiving a handout not from a big faceless corporation which gets it money from somewhere mysterious like “international finance.” No it doesn’t come from there. The unemployed have the tremendous mana reducing guilt of knowing they are using the money their neighbour, who does work, gives to the govt. Not to mention the mana reducing idleness etc etc.

So that to me is the core of the argument mm. It’s not the quantity for they have enough to tackle that, it’s just they don’t seem to want to, for some reason.
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June 19, 2011 2:36pm
Pete George

I wouldn’t bet on Act’s future but I also wouldn’t hope for too much. Most people aren’t interested in detail on the economy. And both Brash and Banks can turn off as many as they attract. They may get back in a with a few seats on the back of Epsom but 5% will be a big ask.

I’d be happy with a few Act seats, but I’d worry of they got much more – I’m not seeing quality of candidate fronting up yet. There’s a lot more to politics than a bit of economic and mayoral experience.
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June 19, 2011 2:37pm
hj

wat dabney (543) Says:
June 19th, 2011 at 2:05 pm
………
Global Warming scam dies again!. Whens the funeral? 😉
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June 19, 2011 2:48pm
David Garrett

Pete George: Been an MP have you? A City Councillor? A member of a Community Board? School Committee?

If you knew anything at all about politics you wouldn’t be deluding yourself you can start a one man party and take a seat first time up…

That IS you isn’t it?
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June 19, 2011 2:54pm
holysheet

Viking2
“if KB want more capital we can do that by selling extra shares, i.e. shares not already owned by Govt. to raise extra capital. i.e. Kiwibank can issue new shares. Price will lower but that’s ok.No issue there”

If KB sells share to raise capital, to whom would they be selling these new shares to? One presumes to the owner of the capital. ie new shareholders. Who in NZ would have this kind of ready monies? The other trading banks or overseas entities? Would this not dilute the govts shares.
If we follow your argument in agreeing with WP about being against the govt selling shares, how do you reconcile his agreement to sell kiwibank shares
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June 19, 2011 3:01pm
bereal

“there is a lot more to politics than a bit of economic and mayoral experience.”
Thats true Pete, and if that were all ACT had you would be making a valid point.
Are you suggesting that Banks has only mayoral experience ?
What about Sir Roger ?
Money is quite important too.
Now thats Acts swamp has been drained, and the leadership and Epsom are sorted, raising funds
will be less of an issue for them.
i doubt that they will be reduced to running cash raffles to raise a war chest.
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June 19, 2011 3:05pm
Pete George

David – it’s not a one man party. And I don’t think I’m deluded. Neither am I arrogant.

I know it’s a huge never been done before challenge but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done, especially in the current political climate. The parties on offer are looking weak. Labour is in continuous disarray. WP looks past it. Greens will struggle to be anything other than a niche. Ditto Maori, split by Mana.

If Act can’t make headway amongst lot it suggests to me they will struggle for wide appeal.

A lot of people out there don’t know who to vote for. They go through the options eliminating who they won’t vote for and end up with the least worst option, without enthusiasm.

Many people are saying they want something different. We don’t expect to appeal to political pundits (although some are on our side). Ordinary people are fed up with politicians. If we can appeal to them (big if) and if we can overcome voter inertia (big if) we could should a few in the established same old parties.

Don’t underestimated the level of general discontent. Brash isn’t going to overcome much of that.
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June 19, 2011 3:08pm
Pete George

bereal, I know money is important. I know Douglas is smart. I know Brash has already failed once. I know Banks is a long time MP from way back – who repels voters as well as attracts them

Most people know that. I think most people don’t see much improving on the money or personnel front with any of the current options.
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June 19, 2011 3:10pm
nickb

And both Brash and Banks can turn off as many as they attract. They may get back in a with a few seats on the back of Epsom but 5% will be a big ask.

Brash would have been PM if not for hysterical Labour scaremongering and Banks has been Auckland mayor, so not sure where you are going with this….

I will vote for ACT for the sole reason that Don is the only man of principle in NZ politics and has some ideas as to how to reverse our economic and social malaise. That you would attack him for this is ironic given the (no offence intended) complete waffle and political inanity on your website.

Your NZ Principles:

* the people and electorate come first (not the party)
* positive politics
* democratic principles
* supporting the government of the day
(but reserving the right to oppose some policies)
* for the good of the country
* remaining humble in service

Hmmm…..

Brash isn’t going to overcome much of that.

And Your NZ is when its website is full of tired recycled politicial cliches??

Your NZ is not politically aligned, it allows each candidate and electorate to have diverse policy positions depending on what the people want. Like anyone, members of Your NZ will have individual political inclinations and preferences.

and this….

Once we build our party membership we will develop positions on some policies important to our electorates. Our List MPs will also seek input on national issues.

But these policies will be non-ideological, they will be flexible, they may change with changing situations, events and needs, and they may vary from electorate to electorate as different areas can have different priorities.</blockquote
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June 19, 2011 3:17pm
Pete George

Early days with that Nick.

Look, I’m under no illusions about the difficulty in getting a seat. But there’s not point in trying without believing it’s possible.

And what I know is certain is we can make a difference to the campaign. We already have, I have already seen direct political reactions. If we can sway some of the narrative, especially at electorate level, then we will have succeeded to an extent. And built some recognition.

Every party starts from nothing. Most don’t succeed. Some do, with enough determination, the right approach for the times, and a fair amount of luck.

If no one tried anything new we would be in the situation we are now.

I doubt you would try and claim our political scene is vibrant and full of great choices right now.
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June 19, 2011 3:27pm
gravedodger

@ Pete George, do you ever read history.
You want Dunedin North to send you to Wellington?
For over 20 years they have been re-electing Funereal Pete Hodgeson.
That tells me they would send a Southland Swede with a red scarf around its neck to be “Their Man in Wellington”
Just have a sit down with your old mate ‘Tanky’, You know the one that lives in the green house with the Cornish name, Tanquery, thats it.
I know we live in tumultuous times but I am sorry to tell you this “it aint THAT tumultuous”
Kind regards etc
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June 19, 2011 3:54pm
Mick Mac

http://www.wellingtononaplate.com/festival-events-2011/event/beervana

For your diaries gents.
August 5th and 6th 12-4pm and 6-10pm.
$35 pp
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June 19, 2011 4:05pm
starboard

hey all the best to ya PG…while we sit around moaning you are prepared to put ya balls on the line..good on you.
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June 19, 2011 4:06pm
nasska

Bereal

You are a dedicated ACT supporter & if ACT is to have any hope they need more like you. Trouble is that I & lot like myself look at the mess that is ACT & see a trainwreck that hasn’t even begun the work needed to present itself as a credible party of the right.

You need policies & you need people to review & debate these policies so that the electorate knows why they should vote for ACT.

You need candidates & fresh & eager ones at that to counter the tired old recycled crap that ACT has burdened itself with so far.

Don Brash, as I stated earlier, has much left to offer NZ. Leadership is not his forte & someone has to take over selling the party’s ideals, supposing they can locate a few of them.

That will do for starters & you’re running out of time. Make a decent fist of the campaign & the party could prosper. Sit back & all you have is the hope that the electors of Epsom are prepared to put a with an egotistical recycled no hoper like Banks.

Were I a religious person I would say God help you.
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June 19, 2011 4:08pm
Pauleastbay

I’d suggest and not in a humble way that Peter George has a much better chance of getting into Parliament that David Garret does..

Yea Pete, have you got your convictions( criminal) the ability to lie straight faced to people, the abilty to use other peoples money and not give a flying fuck.?. until you have these ducks lined up mate you might be struggling……. But you have 5 months for complete moral decay to set in – if this happens you should piss in.
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June 19, 2011 4:09pm
Pete George

gravedodger – I’m well aware of the electorate history. I’m also aware that Pete Hodgson is retiring this year. And his relatively unknown replacement is expected to stroll into the seat, despite there being three list MPs from other parties based in the electorate, including number one for the Greens.

If no one bothered trying anything because of history where would it get us?

If the voters choose the status quo where they’re happy for four MPs to represent their electorate and are hardly seen or heard from it’s up to them.

But if the voters see the opportunity of their votes actually mattering for a change, of their city being potentially pivotal and the focus of attention, then there’s a chance. A small chance, but unless tested we will never know.

One things for sure, I’m not going to sit on my arse not finding out. No harm in that at all. And there could be some good of it for the electorate, whether it chooses me or not. I’m not just standing for a seat, I’m standing for a different way of doing things.
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June 19, 2011 4:12pm
Simon Arnold

Hey David

Just had a ring from “Wellington Direct Research” asking me if I felt better off, whether interest rates will get to 9% etc. Promised to send me a pamphlet telling me the results.

Neither Google or the Companies Office seem to know them.

One of yours or one of the other lot’s?

(Don’t think I’ve ever been a member of the NZEI though.)
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June 19, 2011 4:14pm
gravedodger

Good luck Pete.
I wont be sitting on my arse but I will be here in my very own Berchtesgaden with my blueshirts, my doberpoodles and the dachshund.
I mean the good wishes, all power to your sword.
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June 19, 2011 4:20pm
nasska

Pauleastbay

……”you have 5 months for complete moral decay to set in”……

Although I have hope that PG will be the exception your words are prophetic in the majority of cases.

How often has a fresh faced young idealist been sent off to parliament with his/her electorate’s blessing only to come unglued within a few short years? What we vote for is not usually what we end up with.
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June 19, 2011 4:29pm
Pete George

Nasska, that’s why we are building a system for representing where the individuals aren’t as important, they are a conduit between the electorate and parliament. Even if we succeed in getting a foot in the door of parliament it won’t change everything immediately, but it’s a form of semi direct democracy (a modernised version similar to Switzerland) that could gradually flow out and up.

We want to take the focus off personalities and idealists and make it a system of representation for the whole electorate. We’re using Dunedin North as an example at electorate level, it will work better if it’s done via an MP but can also be effective as a people’s lobby.

We don’t want to replace representative democracy, but we want to redress some balance towards people and electorates so that feel they can have a say more often then once every three years.

Established polies don’t like it because it reduces their party-centric power.

It doesn’t matter whether I’ve been on a school committee or not. It matters whether I can help voters have more relevance than a three year blank cheque for parties.
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June 19, 2011 4:46pm
nasska

Peter George

As I’ve stated before your’s is a novel idea & deserves a try out to see if it is acceptable to the electorate. If it moderates the power of the parties & forces them to listen to their voters more regularly than at three year intervals it would be a major achievement.

The cynic in me favours Guy Fawkes’ approach.
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June 19, 2011 5:02pm
jaba

Pete G hasn’t got a shit show in hell of winning, as indicated by the swede analogy, BUT I also wish him well for doing what most of us won’t do, and that is standing for election (I don’t include the mad water woman though)
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June 19, 2011 5:13pm
Pete George

I’d rather not risk the Guy Fawkes consequences. The worst that can happen to me is a few people will say “I told you so” and I’ll still be able to say “but I was still able to achieve x”.

The most likely outcome is the old parties will promise to do the same as us plus have the power of the party behind them, and then when they get in forget about it because they have the power of the party behind them.

It shouldn’t be a radical idea – as well as having professional politicians and unionists and lawyers and pensioners etc in parliament doing what their party wants them to, we could also have a group of MPs representing ordinary people.

It only sounds non-achievable because the establishment says “you can’t do that, we’re the experts”. But we’ll have a damn good try.
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June 19, 2011 5:51pm
bereal

Jeez nasska,
10.50 “Their certain demise as a political party.” to
4.05 “Make a decent fist of the campaign and the party could prosper.”
You seem to be slow to come on board, but it will happen.
i’ve never voted for Act before but with the way National are going with the help of Bill English
and John, Act are starting to look good.
If you are a conservative, youve got nowhere else to go.
(unless Pete gets his dream to fly maybe)
Meanwhile over in the USA Herman Cain might show in 2012 how well a total novice (like PG) may do if
you can talk some common sense.
i liked Hermans response to the question of how he could go with no political experience. He said, ‘almost all the
current congressmen and senators have great political experience, how are they working out for you at the moment ?’
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June 19, 2011 6:07pm
Pete George

He said, ‘almost all the current congressmen and senators have great political experience, how are they working out for you at the moment ?’

Exactly bereal – but unlike Cain we aren’t planning on taking the top job, just channeling some ordinary voices into the middle of parliament and influencing from within.

Who is the PM more likely to take notice of, Winston Peters, Hone Harawira (wanting to pay all beneficiaries the minimum wage which he probably also wants put up to $15 per hour) or an electorate (or several) that can demonstrate that 67% of their electorate strongly supports (or opposes) a particular policy?
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June 19, 2011 6:15pm
mikenmild

Well bereal, I suppose Don Brash does have about as much chance of becoming PM as Herman (“I wouldn’t hire a Muslim”) Cain does of winning the presidency!
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June 19, 2011 6:27pm
wat dabney

“Global Warming scam dies again!. Whens the funeral?”

Well we shouldn’t hold hold our breath, not with so many vested interests doing all they can to keep the gravy-train going.

Can you imagine turkeys like the Green Party voting for Christmas?
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June 19, 2011 6:39pm
nasska

Bereal

The key to locking the two statements together is that ACT has only months to do what needs years. It is going to take a shit load of groundwork if you intend to hold on to Epsom & frankly I don’t think that the current hierarchy has got what it takes to even do that properly.
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June 19, 2011 6:47pm

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