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May 8, 2011 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 8 May 2011

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General Debate

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Put it away

Your 2:05 Tragic Bullshit, you’ve got a quote from me that I never said.
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May 8, 2011 3:59pm
publicwatchdog

Sofia (122) Says:
May 8th, 2011 at 3:33 pm
…………………..

Therefore it is fair to conclude, and pass on your conclusion as ‘fact’, that
1] the USA runs New Zealand
2] the Police made a comment to the Dominion Post
3] Washington would wonder what the hell their Wellington Embassy was talking about.”
______________________________________________________________________________________________

errrr……………. ‘Sofia’ no doubt you’re a REALLY ‘brainy’ person – (well – maybe one of those ‘all brains – no commonsense’
types?)

Unfortunately – you don’t seem to understand the difference between a QUESTION and a STATEMENT?

HINT: You know it’s a QUESTION – when there is one of those squiggly things with a full stop underneath it (a QUESTION mark?) at the end of the sentence – as opposed to just a dot (FULL STOP)?

If you care to recheck my original post – you will see that I asked a series of QUESTIONS?

Which means that I am NOT passing on my ‘conclusion’ as ‘fact’?

Duh???

Given that you ARE now bothering to read my post(s?) ‘Sofia’ – can you kindly pay more attention to what I’ve actually written and please desist from misrepresenting what I’m saying?
_________________________________________________________________________

My original post – FYI………

“New Zealand Police have told post that they expect those charged to escape incarceration and likely to pay only a fine.”

What I would like to know is – since when did the NZ Police report to the US Embassy?

Given that it is the NZ taxpayers who pay for the NZ Police – why didn’t the NZ Police inform the NZ public/taxpayers –
‘that they expect those charged to escape incarceration and likely to pay only a fine.” ?

How many NZ MPs knew that New Zealand Police expected ‘those charged to escape incarceration and likely to pay only a fine.” ?

How many ‘Kiwibloggers’ think it’s ok for our NZ Police to report to the US Embassy (BEFORE 27 NOVEMBER 2007?!!) – but not the NZ public – ‘that they expect those charged to escape incarceration and likely to pay only a fine.”

Just WHO is running NZ and in WHOSE interests? ”
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Just take your time ‘Sofia’ and read things CAREFULLY, ( I’m sure if you try hard – you’ll get the hang of it) – and you won’t come across as a ‘nutter’ (deliberately?) just ‘making it up’ ? 🙂

Kind regards,

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
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May 8, 2011 4:13pm
Sofia

Penny Bright –
“Just take your time ‘Sofia’ and read things CAREFULLY, ( I’m sure if you try hard – you’ll get the hang of it) – and you won’t come across as a ‘nutter’ (deliberately?) just ‘making it up’ ?”

If you applied this advice to your own original reading of the US cable –
“… This offense carries a maximum sentence of 3 years in jail or a fine notexceeding NZ $4000 (US $3000) or both. New Zealand Police have told post that they expect those charged to escape incarceration and likely to pay only a fine. …”
– maybe we wouldn’t be wasting time now with this.
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May 8, 2011 4:30pm
Rex Widerstrom

In my experience, the Americans often refer to the embassy / consulate itself as their “post” see here for reference and and here. Technically it refers only to very small scale offices, but calling anything short of London or Berlin or Moscow a “post” seems to be a form of diplomatic slang or shorthand.

Thus the cable reads to me as “New Zealand Police have told [this embassy] that they expect those charged to escape incarceration and likely to pay only a fine”.

So not a particular person at the embassy, but the embassy itself.

HTH
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May 8, 2011 4:32pm
reid

Reid, spare me, demolition training with what, petrol ? sniper training with what, semi auto copies of the AK47 firing the 7.62/39 cartridge ? christ you would be better off with an old scoped up 303.

Yeah grumpy they were doing it NZ style: i.e. on the cheap.

This doesn’t mean what they were doing should have been interpreted by the police at the time as being completely innocent and non-threatening behaviour. The only thing the cops have done wrong throughout the whole affair was go in with all the Heckler & Kochs and the black uniforms. That probably was a bit OTT, but the reason the case is in trouble is not cause of lack of evidence or the police did something wrong, it’s cause the law is an ass.

If our law can’t successfully prosecute people for illegal actions based on the evidence the police have gathered on what was happening, then the law is an ass. If we can’t prosecute people who do things like this, then who the fuck can we prosecute, in the TSA. Let’s hope the Crown Counsel didn’t let a clause slip by that said the only person who can be prosecuted is a Middle-Eastern Arab in traditional dress walking into a building with an ACME round bomb with a burning fuse, and somehow none of the Select Committee nor the house noticed as this critical bill was carefully deliberated.
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May 8, 2011 4:52pm
hj

The reason the Peace Movement Commandos and Pyrotechnic Squad (PMCPS) want the charges dropped is they want to be able to bragg that there was nothing in it. Already they are lying as Russell Brown points out here:

I think the film crosses a line at quite a pivotal point. We see and hear Solicitor General David Collins say there is insufficient evidence for charges under the Terrorism Suppression Act and instruct the news media to take care in reporting the case. We do not hear him complain that the incoherent drafting of the law made it difficult for him to approve charges, or say “I wish also to stress that the police have successfully brought to an end what were very disturbing activities,” and pay tribute to their “professionalism and integrity”. These things are literally edited out of his statement.
This matters, because Collins is presented as almost the only honest broker in the Establishment. Wright quoted him approvingly in the Q&A session after last night’s screening in Auckland, telling the audience Collins had declared the charges “a load of crap”. Collins simply did not say that, even in lawyer-language.
http://publicaddress.net/hardnews/a-work-of-advocacy/
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May 8, 2011 4:52pm
Sofia

Rex – Thank you for your comment, which is interesting, but I would still contend the cable, to a reader other than who it was intended for, is ambiguous – and even if the NZ Police answered an Embassy question it would not concern me enough to ask rhetorically “Just WHO is running NZ and in WHOSE interests?”
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May 8, 2011 5:02pm
reid

IF the Solicitor General thinks the charges are “a load of crap” then let me suggest this could be saying one of two things.

One is the people weren’t doing what the surveillance said they were doing. In other words, actors had dressed up, voice-overs happened, the whole thing was made up – the video, the audio, the witnesses, all lies, from start to finish, in order to persecute 18 hitherto unknown characters who apparently enjoyed hunting.

The other is the TSA is framed so badly it cannot accommodate the clear and present drop dead obvious video and audio evidence of a clearly ~~illegal~~ undesirable happening, vis-a-vis national security in these terror-aware times we live in.

I’m not sure there’s a third alternative but somehow I think you may have one hj.
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May 8, 2011 5:06pm
hj

The SG doesn’t think the charges are a lot of crap that quote was from a review of Operation 8 -Deep in the Desert . Russel Brown is reviewing it.
It is the maker of the film (Wright: yeah -right, Wright) who tells the audience that SG Collins called the charges “a load of crap” in the Q&A at the end of the screening. Russell Brown calls the film “a work of advocacy”
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May 8, 2011 5:17pm
reid

See what I don’t get hj about the lefty meme on this, is that your meme would be fine were the world full of pixies and fairies and we all danced with ~~gay~~ abandon every minute of every day but the world isn’t like that, is it.

In other words you lefties aren’t taking into account the context you need to, in these terror-aware times.

I’m not saying we have to go the US route which is completely OTT and for that matter the UK too with its surveillance, no, I’m not repeat not repeat not saying that.

I’m saying we have to recognise our geography isn’t any protection. Things like the SAS prisoner-taking in the media, makes people in Indonesia and the Phillipines sit up and think. Lefty response to this is normally to say, goodness we should withdraw them then, isn’t that the sensible thing to do.

Unfortunately no it’s not, but the reasons why are not a topic for today. My point is, NZ as a nation is unbelievably naive when it comes to matters of national security. We allows things like massive underspend relative to all comparable nations of defence % of GDP, for example. This has been the case since Lange. Bolger, Shipley continued and so, of course, did the traitor Hulun. But no-one says anything, except a handful of voices. There are many other examples. We can’t let this continue. It’s just wrong.

Thanks for the clarification hj
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May 8, 2011 5:17pm
Viking2

Light entertainment for those that don’t fly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iaTEgoezNQ&feature=player_embedded
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May 8, 2011 5:22pm
reid

Speaking of security I’ve been wondering if Brash doesn’t need DPS protection. I know he can’t get it till he’s in Parliament but he needs it, I think.

hj re: my previous post, which inferred you were a lefty, my apologies if I am wrong, it appears I completely misread your post to which I was responding…

D’oh.
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May 8, 2011 5:38pm
Nookin

Penny
Your questions were rhetorical and you know it.

You were advancing a theory in question form. This is your style. It gives you wriggle room to slip out of the corner that you paint yourself into.

Belittling Sofia for picking your style the same way that everyone else does is unworthy, unconvincing and shows that you have no faith in your theories. It suggests that you are simply here to troll.
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May 8, 2011 5:44pm
Paul G. Buchanan

Just to confirm what Rex has said. “Post” is a US diplomatic term for the station from which the cable emanates (embassy, consulate, etc.). A “posting” is a diplomatic assignment, e.g. “he was posted to Burkina Faso because of his drunken escapade with the lady-boy in Rio.” Although the specific writer of different paragraphs in a cable can be junior diplomats (with each paragraph classified as (U)nclassifed, (S)ecret, (TS)Top Secret, the entire cable is classified and signed off by the ambassador or Charge d’affairs.
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May 8, 2011 5:51pm
Sofia

Penny Bright –
At this stage, I give up on this exchange as it gives more importance to your post than it is worth and, apart from Rex and Nookin, nobody else appears interested [QED] and I would not bother readers to scroll past more of my obduracy or your orotund magniloquence.
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May 8, 2011 5:51pm
grumpyoldhori

Black uniforms Reid, they have been watching too many videos of Princess st, a bunch of would be if they had the ability to get close to selection.

Maori learning how to set up a L ambush, oh dear, better stop all that training the army does.
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May 8, 2011 6:00pm
reid

Does anyone think a Citizen Initiated Referenda for:

Should the govt be allowed to appoint politicians to the ambassador posts at ~~the Court of St James~~ London and Washington?

would be a goer?
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May 8, 2011 6:09pm
reid

Black uniforms Reid, they have been watching too many videos of Princess st, a bunch of would be if they had the ability to get close to selection.

Maori learning how to set up a L ambush, oh dear, better stop all that training the army does.

Yeah yeah grumpy, like I said, IF they did anything wrong, it was that, but big deal. I thought Maori were some of the best warriors in the world. What’s the matter? Were they weally scared at the big meanies? Did they poo their pants? Is that why you have a problem with it?

Seriously grumpy, those guys were talking and doing more than you’d expect if it were all just a make believe game and in these terror-aware times, there is very little tolerance for not taking it seriously. That doesn’t mean OTT shit like black uniforms I agree but that in the whole context of all events was just one and nothing happened anyway, just a few hurt feelings. AND personally, I would have been disappointed had the cops not taken that approach, given the evidence they had. At the end of the day, no-one got taken out with a double-tap to the temple, so who cares?
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May 8, 2011 6:15pm
hj

See what I don’t get hj about the lefty meme on this, is that your meme would be fine were the world full of pixies and fairies and we all danced with gay abandon every minute of every day but the world isn’t like that, is it.

In other words you lefties aren’t taking into account the context you need to, in these terror-aware times.
….
You’ve got the wrong end of the stick. Go back and read what I said.

I’m more of a nationalist than a left-winger (actually just left of center)
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May 8, 2011 7:24pm
hj

# Paul G. Buchanan (241) Says:
May 8th, 2011 at 5:51 pm

“Post” is a US diplomatic term for the station from which the cable emanates (embassy, consulate, etc.).
……..
So post is the person in NZ reporting back to the US? What is Penny Brights problem?
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May 8, 2011 7:28pm
grumpyoldhori

What armed cops boarding buses to scare kids is good form ? tell them to try that on in Linton or Burnham and see what reaction they get.
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May 8, 2011 7:31pm
reid

You’ve got the wrong end of the stick.

I know I did hj. My 5:38 explains…

My apologies.
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May 8, 2011 7:32pm
publicwatchdog

# Paul G. Buchanan (241) Says:
May 8th, 2011 at 5:51 pm

Just to confirm what Rex has said. “Post” is a US diplomatic term for the station from which the cable emanates (embassy, consulate, etc.). A “posting” is a diplomatic assignment, e.g. “he was posted to Burkina Faso because of his drunken escapade with the lady-boy in Rio.” Although the specific writer of different paragraphs in a cable can be junior diplomats (with each paragraph classified as (U)nclassifed, (S)ecret, (TS)Top Secret, the entire cable is classified and signed off by the ambassador or Charge d’affairs.”

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
# Sofia (125) Says:
May 8th, 2011 at 5:51 pm

Penny Bright –
At this stage, I give up on this exchange as it gives more importance to your post than it is worth and, apart from Rex and Nookin, nobody else appears interested [QED] and I would not bother readers to scroll past more of my obduracy or your orotund magniloquence.”

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Think I’ll take Paul Buchanan’s considered opinion over anyone else’s on this point ‘Sofia’ – given that he is ‘the expert’?

GOT IT?

‘Post’ WASN’T the ‘Dominion Post’?

DUH?

Not ‘woman’ (?) enough to admit you lost this argument ‘Sofia’?

No surprises there.

It would take a person of some character and integrity to admit they got it wrong.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

# Nookin (761) Says:
May 8th, 2011 at 5:44 pm

Penny
Your questions were rhetorical and you know it.

You were advancing a theory in question form. This is your style. It gives you wriggle room to slip out of the corner that you paint yourself into.

Belittling Sofia for picking your style the same way that everyone else does is unworthy, unconvincing and shows that you have no faith in your theories. It suggests that you are simply here to troll.”
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Same applies to you Nookin.

For the life of me I cannot believe that you truly are a lawyer – with your intellectual firepower and incisive reasoning ….

(not).

errrr….. it was ‘Sofia’ who referred to me as a ‘conspiracy nutter’ – which of course is a ‘worthy’ and ‘convincing’ thing to
do?

Given that ‘the expert’ Paul Buchanan has confirmed that my considered opinion –

” the ‘post’ is more likely to be the person who made this ‘post’? was more on target, as opposed to ‘Sofia’s opinion:

“The context of the quote would however suggest that the ‘post’ referred to is the “Dominion Post”.”

Looks like you ‘backed the loser’ on this issue Nookin.

However – both of you – keep trying!

You may eventually get the hang of ‘debating the issues’?

(yawn………..)

I live in hope..

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
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May 8, 2011 7:55pm
Paul G. Buchanan

hj:

“Post” refers to the originating location of the cable that is reporting back to the State Dept in DC as well as other designees (if you look at the top of the cable you will see a list of acronyms that are the recipients of the cable. Not all of the recipients are located in the US. For example some US embassy (post) Wellington cables have been sent to other US embassies in Australia and South, East and Central Asia as well as various regional US military commands). Since cables are put together by various desk officers and collated into one document by the Chief of Mission or another designated high-level embassy authority, “post” simply is a reference to the originating entity as a collective enterprise. It is not a reference to the Dominion Post.
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May 8, 2011 8:03pm
Pete George

On Q&A this morning Russel Norman said:

….what is it that’s new in 2010?

And also, I think, the role for markets and business. We think that there’s a very positive role for well-regulated and green businesses to actually produce progressive change.

Not quite the total communists that some claim.
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May 8, 2011 8:15pm
Pete George

And his take on the Green demographic (and compared to Mana):

I mean, when you look at the green vote, basically, the higher your level of education the more likely you are to vote green, just when you look at the straight numbers, that’s how it works.

Um, and so we have strong support amongst what you might call progressive liberal, kind of, NZ who have higher incomes and higher education, and also amongst students and so forth.

So there is a distinction between what a Mana Party vote might look like and what a Green Party vote looks like.
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May 8, 2011 8:20pm
bhudson

Pete,

I thnk perhaps Russell and his colleagues have a ‘slightly’ different view to your chosen interpretation as to what “well-regulated” and “progressive change” mean.

I am certain that they are wholly consistent with the NZ Greens traditional economic ideas
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May 8, 2011 8:21pm
Nookin

Dear me, Penny. And you were the one bitching about ad hominem attacks. I now know one thing for sure. Everything you do or say on this blog is all about you. It was that same with Dick Hubbard — you had to insist calling out the score. You then went on to say how successful you were as a lay litigant — telling us the count –but conveniently forgot to tell the full truth.

Everything is a battle for you. You pump yourself up and decry everyone else.

I don’t give a tinkers cuss what you think about my abilities or otherwise as a lawyer. I do the best I can with what I’ve got and if that that doesn’t meet with your pious, patronising and sanctimonious appraisals then I am not going to get ulcers about it.

Ask yourself, Penny — when you post here are you really thinking about the issues or are you here as some sort of self-gratification exercise?

I would like to debate — properly — many of the issues that you raise but, frankly, your ego is too much in the way.
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May 8, 2011 8:45pm
Nookin

“It would take a person of some character and integrity to admit they got it wrong.”

You have just proved what I have always thought Penny.

IV2, if you are out there, did Penny ever apologise for calling you intellectually lazy because you said that Peters never repaid the money? Penny — you were demonstrably — and everyone knew it. Did you apologise, Penny? What conclusions do we draw from that?
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May 8, 2011 8:53pm
magic bullet

Hori – Princess st videos?
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May 8, 2011 8:56pm
lofty

Speaking of the Greens, I owe them my grateful thanks…I recieved a “green flyer” today in the letterbox, well bugger me if when I folded it into 4’s it propped up my financial filing cabinet perfectly…thanks you little aussie battler you!
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May 8, 2011 9:11pm
reid

Hori – Princess st videos?

That sounds like some ~~Masonic Handshake~~ Fabian Handshake, mb.

Well, it does, given the Fabians’ don’t know what they’re doing, since they’re the lefty version. I mean, it’s a given, isn’t it? That lefties don’t know what they’re doing? Everyone knows that. Crikey. Der. So they make up some dumb handshake not like the cool one..
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May 8, 2011 9:13pm
publicwatchdog

Nookin – whatever…………………..

Your constant whining is getting REALLY boring………..

(yawn)

At least my post on the leaked US Embassy cable prompted SOME informed ‘expert’ comment.

Well – to be fair – had ‘Sofia’ not raised the question of what ‘post’ was being referred to – we wouldn’t have all learned what ‘post’ actually means regarding US Embassy ‘cables’.

Thanks for that Paul Buchanan.

A rare pleasure on Kiwiblog to get considered EXPERT opinion!

Cheers!

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
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May 8, 2011 9:40pm
magic bullet

reid – we don’t run the world. We aren’t the cosa nostra/CIA/banking/secret society monster that runs NATO/the western world. Do you really think you know what you’re doing in such a world?
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May 8, 2011 9:42pm
reid

reid – we don’t run the world.

Well, you don’t, mb.

I already know that.

No, I can’t tell you how I know.

Sorry.
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May 8, 2011 9:48pm
Mary Rose

>Penny: Given that it is the NZ taxpayers who pay for the NZ Police – why didn’t the NZ Police inform the NZ public/taxpayers –
‘that they expect those charged to escape incarceration and likely to pay only a fine.” ?

Since when has it been the role of the police to decide or comment on the likely outcome of criminal proceedings?

The police arrest suspects.
The judiciary take it from there.
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May 8, 2011 10:04pm
magic bullet

aw yeah reid and i suppose you’re one of the chosen few. Got an honorary 32nd degree handed to you on a platter no doubt. lol
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May 8, 2011 10:05pm
reid

We aren’t the cosa nostra/CIA/banking/secret society monster that runs NATO/the western world. Do you really think you know what you’re doing in such a world?

The issue is mb, most people except ourselves and a few hundred others, don’t see the clear and present fact of the dangers you so graphically present.

The “cosa nostra/CIA/banking/secret society monster that runs NATO/the western world” is not the end, it is merely one side of the many sided coin and both sides play it and don’t forget about the second side and their nature which is far more serious than the side you mention.

If only mb people understood even the first step but they don’t and they possibly won’t for fifty years, just like with other epochal events, when it doesn’t matter anymore.
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May 8, 2011 10:06pm
Paul G. Buchanan

Penny:

To quote my most favorite cartoon character: “There are known knowns, there are known unknowns, and there are unknown unknowns.”

I try to limit myself to the “known knowns” category.

For more on what is known and unknown with a NZ angle, check out http://www.kiwipolitico.com.
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May 8, 2011 10:07pm
magic bullet

reid – do you have any spiritual beliefs? It’s the only way i keep going with the knowledge i have (a lot more than i can say here).
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May 8, 2011 10:11pm
hj

“New Zealand Police have told post that they expect those charged to escape incarceration and likely to pay only a fine.”

What I would like to know is – since when did the NZ Police report to the US Embassy?
………..
You mean police shouldn’t cooperate between countries?
[case dismissed]

Given that it is the NZ taxpayers who pay for the NZ Police – why didn’t the NZ Police inform the NZ public/taxpayers –
‘that they expect those charged to escape incarceration and likely to pay only a fine.” ?
…….
because police know our mamby-pamby criminal justice system and probably realise the real penalty here is political (i.e) “having peace activists and environmentalists playing at commando is a bad look. ” Paul Buchanan, plus they have to explain about the mock interrogations and things.
[case dismissed]

How many NZ MPs knew that New Zealand Police expected ‘those charged to escape incarceration and likely to pay only a fine.” ?

……
do I win a prize if i guess right?

Just WHO is running NZ and in WHOSE interests? ”

that’s something we need to keep in mind for sure.
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May 8, 2011 10:13pm
magic bullet

PGB – and it’s because you try to apply the scientific method, to a world that requires some use of inductive logic to understand, that you’re so wide of the mark with your analysis.
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May 8, 2011 10:14pm
Paul G. Buchanan

magic wand:

I assume you are referring to the 9/11 holographs?
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May 8, 2011 10:18pm
reid

reid – do you have any spiritual beliefs?

Yes I do mb and I agree, it’s an essential help.
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May 8, 2011 10:21pm
reid

Paul, since you’re here, care to share thoughts on anything, like for instance the Pakistan-US imbriglio?
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May 8, 2011 10:23pm
magic bullet

Oh you want a juicy factoid to nibble on PGB?

Omar Sheikh, a British-born Islamist militant, is waiting to be hanged in Pakistan for a murder he almost certainly didn’t commit – of the Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in 2002. Both the US government and Pearl’s wife have since acknowledged that Sheikh was not responsible. Yet the Pakistani government is refusing to try other suspects newly implicated in Pearl’s kidnap and murder for fear the evidence they produce in court might acquit Sheikh and reveal too much.
Significantly, Sheikh is also the man who, on the instructions of General Mahmoud Ahmed, the then head of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), wired $100,000 before the 9/11 attacks to Mohammed Atta, the lead hijacker. It is extraordinary that neither Ahmed nor Sheikh have been charged and brought to trial on this count. Why not?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jul/22/usa.september11

Again – you wont find it in the textbook for Robert Patman’s course, but ya know. A fact is still a fact.
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May 8, 2011 10:23pm
Paul G. Buchanan

M-wand:

I am not a Patman student nor does Pakistani injustice surprise me.
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May 8, 2011 10:33pm
magic bullet

Does it surprise you that the US gov has not pursued the issue?
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May 8, 2011 10:37pm
magic bullet

The wall street journal discovered the money transfer, then one of their journalists is murdered following it up, and the person who delivered the money, was stitched up for his murder. All a bit suspect, when you consider that the US government never even bothered to follow the money on the greatest crime on US soil for the last 70 years.
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May 8, 2011 10:43pm
Paul G. Buchanan

MB:

No. From a US utilitarian perspective it just means another bad guy getting his just desserts. As for Gen. Ahmed, under the National reforms of immigrant visas, he could well be living comfortably in NZ so long as he had US$1 million up front to show as an “investment.”
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May 8, 2011 10:43pm
magic bullet

PGB – you have to stop thinking in terms of traditional models of political life, and start looking at all available axioms without a preconceived framework to bias your analysis. You aren’t in an institution any more. It’s safe for you to do such things.
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May 8, 2011 10:50pm
magic bullet

….. Don’t just discard facts that confuse your understanding of the world. Do the intellectually honest thing and follow them up.
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May 8, 2011 10:54pm
Paul G. Buchanan

MB:

My lack of “institutionality” has all to do with me challenging (NZ terciary education) paradigms. It has nothing to do with known knowns or known unknowns when it comes to the bigger picture. As for the unknown unknowns, you seem to have a handle on them.
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May 8, 2011 10:55pm
magic bullet

You’re a slippery one huh. Slippery ones are good fun. So there’s no drawing you on the wire transfer?
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May 8, 2011 11:00pm
Put it away

Tragic Bullshit “….. Don’t just discard facts that confuse your understanding of the world. Do the intellectually honest thing and follow them up.”

Pot. Kettle. Black. A day never goes by without you just ignoring something that proves you wrong.
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May 8, 2011 11:02pm
reid

As for the unknown unknowns, you seem to have a handle on them.

Everyone knows about them.
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May 8, 2011 11:03pm
magic bullet

PIA – just because i don’t have time to answer every objection to each of my comments, doesn’t mean i’m wrong. I get overwhelmed with volume of response at times here.
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May 8, 2011 11:07pm
magic bullet

reid – true that 🙂

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F8QM3tjkTE&feature=fvwrel
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May 8, 2011 11:12pm
krazykiwi

… and start looking at all available axioms without a preconceived framework to bias your analysis

Never say “Keep an open mind” when instead there’s an opportunity to open ones mouth, insert a foot and chew for 42 syllables.
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May 8, 2011 11:18pm
Bobbie black

Just watched that TV1 news item about people ripping off the system with Super Gold Cards.

“We sent our reporter…in and she got a discounts on…”

Interesting question:

Has that reporter then committed a crime?

Broke the law intentionally for let’s face it, pay by TV1.

If they immediately repaid the money discounted and explained why they did it, would they they be then NOT committing a crime?

Because a thief or criminal would not necessarily be granted that grace.

Oh sorry, it was a mistake, here is the money or item back.

But surely the crime has already been committed?

Anyway, bored here on a sunny afternoon.
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May 8, 2011 11:19pm
magic bullet

I also believe that deep down in their gut, everybody knows that the world is not run with the bulk of humanity in mind. In fact the most powerful people in the world are evil scum bags. No one seems to go after them though. We are concerned about the latest act of senseless violence in our own town. But what happens below is just a reflection of what goes on above.

My belief is that you don’t use evil, it uses you ultimately. So they’re also the biggest suckers in the world.
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May 8, 2011 11:21pm
reid

PIA – just because i don’t have time to answer every objection to each of my comments, doesn’t mean i’m wrong. I get overwhelmed with volume of response at times here.

That’s cause you’re special, mb.
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May 8, 2011 11:26pm
reid

deep down in their gut, everybody knows that the world is not run with the bulk of humanity in mind. In fact the most powerful people in the world are evil scum bags.

Yes all of us understand this to greater or lessor degrees mb.

My belief is that you don’t use evil, it uses you ultimately. So they’re also the biggest suckers in the world.

Well it really depends on what’s happened after one has been “used” by “~~them~~” “it”, doesn’t it.

It would be good to have an informed understanding of what happens.
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May 8, 2011 11:29pm
magic bullet

aww – heart of generosity tonight aren’t ya reid.
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May 8, 2011 11:31pm
reid

Aren’t I always like this, mb? Perhaps you’re just not listening hard enough.
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May 8, 2011 11:35pm
magic bullet

reid – all the great spiritual teachers – those that have bothered with the bitter searching of the heart (as leaonard cohen put it) have said roughly the same thing. Truth, love and respect (though their doctrines have been heavily bastardised for expedience of one kind or another). It takes a strong mind in today’s world to understand that these are the ultimate forms of power. I mean power over yourself, not other people. Which in your dying moments is the only kind of power that matters. I do wonder why that is at times.

As to the hereafter – dunno I can only hope that it is governed with justice, and not evil.

What about you?
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May 8, 2011 11:39pm
publicwatchdog

# Mary Rose (46) Says:
May 8th, 2011 at 10:04 pm

>Penny: Given that it is the NZ taxpayers who pay for the NZ Police – why didn’t the NZ Police inform the NZ public/taxpayers –
‘that they expect those charged to escape incarceration and likely to pay only a fine.” ?

Since when has it been the role of the police to decide or comment on the likely outcome of criminal proceedings?

The police arrest suspects.
The judiciary take it from there.”

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

“Since when has it been the role of the police to decide or comment on the likely outcome of criminal proceedings?”

So ‘Mary Rose’ – why are NZ Police apparently reporting to the US Embassy in NZ on this matter?

“New Zealand Police have told post that they expect those charged to escape incarceration and likely to pay only a fine.”

Whose interests are being served here?

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
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May 9, 2011 8:48am
Mary Rose

Penny >So ‘Mary Rose’ – why are NZ Police apparently reporting to the US Embassy in NZ on this matter?
>“New Zealand Police have told post that they expect those charged to escape incarceration and likely to pay only a fine.”

The leaked US cable needs a LOT more detail/context to be truly damning.

Is it?
a) one senior officer moaning to a US contact about that after all their efforts to prosecute, the Solicitor General over-ruled them on the charges? (“So all we can do them on is firearms charges, for which the maximum penalty is….”)
or
b) is it an official statement by The NZ Police as a whole, reporting to another state on proceedings that haven’t come to court yet?

If it’s B, then in doing so, the police would be risking not only prejudicing that outcome, but also effectively doing the judge’s job by 1) determining the guilt of the defendants and 2) deciding what the sentence will be.

I would strongly suspect it’s A.

Prove it’s B, and a lot of people would be worried.
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May 9, 2011 9:32am
Sofia

Mary Rose, I’m afraid the word the cable uses is ‘told’. I doubt the US Embassy is going to provide any further explanation of what was a private communication.
So we are left with that word. To use any other word – moan, state or report – is to colour that word ‘told’ with a meaning that is not indicated there.

And is this jump from the word ‘told’ to ‘reported’, with its implications, important?
Well it could be, if these are the same Police as Watchdog Jacob Cohen says are controlled by the Corporation of London.
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May 9, 2011 10:04am
Nookin

Mary Rose
Add (c) Is it a disaffected cop having a moan to someone from the embassy in a pub on Friday night without any sanction from the powers that be?

Sofia.
Generally speaking “told” means “inform”. It does not connote accountability
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May 9, 2011 10:25am
Mary Rose

Well, the NZ police could be called to explain it publicly, if someone was minded to pursue it to the top.

If I were an MP and thought the police might be reporting to another nation, I’d be asking for some official clarification, just be on the safe side – given that it a domestic issue and not any threat to the US.

My take on it is that given that the police are in no position to say what the verdict or (if guilty) sentences will be, it can only be someone’s opinion.
Which expressed in a private conversation would be no great offence.
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May 9, 2011 10:26am
Nookin

Mary Rose
I see it as you do –except I do not see any problem with someone in the police telling someone else what they “guess” might happen.
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May 9, 2011 10:33am
Mary Rose

…and as others have said, general communication between an embassy and the national authorities is no biggie.

‘What’s likely to happen”
“Well, probably this…”
…it isn’t anything (the possible outcome) anyone couldn’t work out for themselves anyway.
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May 9, 2011 10:36am
Sofia

Nookin – Sofia. Generally speaking “told” means “inform”. It does not connote accountability

Yes, that is exactly what I am trying to point out.
I am disappointed that is not clear.
It is other people who would have you believe ‘told’ means ‘report’ or anything else that might indicate accountability or subservience.
I am not the one presenting this to question if the New Zealand Poilce are ‘reporting’ to the US Embassy.
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May 9, 2011 11:06am
Nookin

Sofia
I was not getting at you. I understood completely what you were saying. I was coming to the same conclusion for the benefit of someone else who seems to have trouble with basic terms but will not hesitate to point out to others the error of their ways. In this context, welcome to the “its easier to bang your head against a brick wall club”
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May 9, 2011 11:16am
Pete George

The overshadowed attention seeker tries to join the fray:

Winston Peters slammed Don Brash and Hone Harawira at a Grey Power meeting in Hamilton last night.

The New Zealand first leader likened Brash to an egocentric dinosaur, while describing Harawira as a loose unit from the Far North.

An egocentric fossil tries to let loose.

Is there any truth to the rumour I’m just starting that he wants to rename NZF to the Zimmer Party?
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May 9, 2011 11:32am
Lee01

“I also believe that deep down in their gut, everybody knows that the world is not run with the bulk of humanity in mind.”

The world is not “run” at all, at least not in the political sense your meaning. It is largely a chaotic mix of random human actions and varying degrees of good/bad political rule, some better than others.

But there is no grand conspiracy of rulers who run things. Its just a figment of your imagination, a poor form of what could be called “pop-theology” (in theological terms your world view is called Gnosticism), an attempt to explain evil in the world by projecting it on to to an imagined super-group of evil rulers.

The truth is much harder to deal with because it involves taking personal responsibility and not having a secret Cabal to blame

The truth is that evil is within every human heart, and every human being is part of the problem, and equally responsible for the mess we are in.

The world will be a better place when we stop blaming some conspiracy, or some group like P2, or the Masons, or the Jesuits, ot the Jews, or the Americans, or the Israelis, or whatever group is currently being scapegoated. The evil is in YOU, not “out there”.
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May 9, 2011 3:02pm
thedavincimode

PG

That’s very good and worth stealing.
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May 9, 2011 5:24pm
magic bullet

lee yeah – sure, everyone has the potential for evil. I just don’t think you understand the way political power operates.
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May 9, 2011 9:26pm
Put it away

Hah a superannuitant calling someone else a ‘dinosaur’ at a Grey Power meeting…
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May 9, 2011 9:48pm
Lee01

mb,

I did not say that everyone has the “potential” for evil, I said everyone IS evil, by nature. But rather than deal with that, rather than deal with your own evil, it is easier to shift responsibility for the worlds problems on to an imagined global conspiracy: “oh right, its all THEIR fault, no need to look at myself.”

I understand how political power works. Badly and with little real competency. Your Machiavellian conspiracy relies on those you claim to be behind it having a level of competency that just does not exist in the real world. There are no Doctor Evils with little mini-me’s running the show. Real life is not a James Bond movie.
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May 10, 2011 9:13am

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