General Debate 18 May 2011

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david

surely not
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May 18, 2011 8:02am
Michaels

Wondering if that funny little man Cunliffe is regretting his poll yet.
And stranger that he hasn’t removed it yet.
Better off = 88% (427)
Worse off = 10% (48)
No Change = 2% (12)

They must learn from these stupid social media attempts. Or not.
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May 18, 2011 8:10am
Murray

Those who know the contents of the budget 0%
Those who feel well enoguh informed to evaluate its effects 100%

The country is fucked.

And I see Vernon small has declared open season on the rural sector with one of the single most dishonest and biased pieces of aledged “”journalism”” I’ve seen in some time. A true achievement in this county.

And yes he deserved the double sneer quotes.
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May 18, 2011 8:24am
Manolo

Ah, Vernon Small has shown his socialist Labour credentials again. Old tripe based on a failed ideology and policies of envy.
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May 18, 2011 8:54am
Inventory2

Unite obviously has KFC in its sights

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2011/05/trouble-at-tmill-in-kfc.html

Whatever happened to our work ethic?
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May 18, 2011 9:12am
Mick Mac

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/17/opinion/17abbas.html?_r=2&ref=opinion

Just loved this, wish they’d speak the truth like this more often.
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May 18, 2011 9:13am
Murray

Commies killed it Inv.

Apprently the world owes everyone a free ride.
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May 18, 2011 9:18am
James Stephenson

Whatever happened to our work ethic?

Judging by the general opinion of Kiwis held by UK employers, it left the country.
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May 18, 2011 9:19am
cabbage

Labour having a go at farmers:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/5017285/Is-the-rural-sector-paying-enough-tax

“Either we have a sector in dire financial trouble or the sector is simply writing off a lot of income against expense and not paying tax,”

I Don’t think Stuart thinks it right that a business can deduct expenses before calculating a taxable profit.
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May 18, 2011 9:19am
Murray

Theres a shock, Labour hates the rural sector.

Wonder where they think their food comes from.
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May 18, 2011 9:22am
TripeWryter

Mick Mac:

It is surprising that The New York Times ran that piece. Since before the founding of Israel the Times as been America’s cheerleader and chief apologist for them.

Perhaps the Times is finding, like other MSM, that they don’t have a monopoly of providing information, and that the net enables people to find out the truth of things.
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May 18, 2011 9:24am
Rick Rowling

DPF – in the interests of Fomenting Happy Mischief we probably neeed a press release today – David Cunliffe’s poll shows 88% think they will be better off after the budget.
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May 18, 2011 9:31am
Lance

@Mic Mac

Wow, that piece is up there with the tooth fairy.
Would be good if it was true, but I seriously doubt any intentions whatsoever to stop the violence.
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May 18, 2011 9:34am
si_rangi

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5017018/Man-unjustifiably-fired-for-faking-illness

Hard to get good help these days.
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May 18, 2011 9:36am
Pete George

I Don’t think Stuart thinks it right that a business can deduct expenses before calculating a taxable profit.

Farmers do have an advantage of being able to include normal living expenses as a part of their non-taxable business expenses. And they make their big money on capital gains.

Farming is the most vital sector of our economy and has to remain viable. It does look like it avoids paying a reasonable share of income tax, but contributes to a lot of tax paying business activity. Is there a fairer way farming could be taxed?
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May 18, 2011 9:36am
lofty

Blast..the poll on silent T’s site has been removed, I was just going to vote again on another PC, ah well the message got through obviously.

Tossers!
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May 18, 2011 9:43am
Murray

Meanwhile the freaking mornic greens would like to dismantle our rural economy.

Makes you wonder how people can be so bloody stupid and still permitted to obtain a drivers liscence.
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May 18, 2011 9:44am
side show bob

Yeah you are right Cabbage, These Liarbore scum are nothing more then butt fucking socialist suckholes. What is with these arseholes?. Do these dumb pricks think we put all our income into bank vaults and roll in the money. Don’t worry about how much tax we pay Nash, arsehole, where do you think all our income goes, goes to pay the bills rather then keeping you socialist arseholes in Chardonnay. And when we pay our bills we are keeping real people in work rather then parasitic worms such as yourself.
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May 18, 2011 9:44am
grumpyoldhori

TripeWryter A Palestinian state.
It looks like the general assembly will recognise Palestine, including the UK, France and Germany at the 67 borders and of course the USA has no power to stop that going through.
Interesting 70% of Israels trade goes to the EU, so Israel trying to annex all the West bank would have a hell of a price to pay.

(2011 is going to be a diplomatic 1973,” because a Palestinian state will be recognized internationally. “Every military base in the West Bank will be contravening the sovereignty of an independent U.N. member state.” He added, “A diplomatic siege from without and a civil uprising from within will grip Israel in a stranglehold.”)

A civil war in Israel if they try to move any of the so called settlers off Palestinian Land ?
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May 18, 2011 9:56am
wreck1080

Regarding the rural sector, there is certainly tax abuse that goes on.

I know a farmer who claimed their swimming pool as an expense. Farmers deduct a lot in expenses.

Farmers can be very asset rich but income poor – it is the way they structure their accounting.

Also, while farmers payouts are high, their input costs have increased too (eg fertiliser).
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May 18, 2011 9:57am
grumpyoldhori

Pete George, a little unfair on farmers, ALL we who ran a business from home claimed a fair proportion of our living expenses as non taxable.
Unfair on PAYE payers, easy answer they also can start a business with a loan on commercial terms from the bank.
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May 18, 2011 10:06am
david

Pete George
Yes, farmers can grow their own vegetables and meat, and yes there are some personal/business expense crossovers but they are relatively minor. Probably the biggest would be vehicle expenses but since they removed the off-road rebate of fuel taxes the degree is not large as the IRD expect to see apportionment of some kind between personal (non-deductable) and business (deductable) in most if not all of the grey areas.

Interestingly though Vernon Small does not recognise how many structures are used across the farming community – sole traders, partnerships, trusts, Ltd companies and a few rarer ones as well so where the taxes might be paid is also spread between wages, company income, trust distributions, company taxes, trust taxes and partnership profit shares.

But the biggest gap is Maori incorporations and Trusts who, I believe, have a special tax rate that does not get adjusted when the income flows down to the beneficiaries. Now that one flies below the radar.
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May 18, 2011 10:29am
Murray

I see Labour is claiming success with their latest billboard campaign.

Because they admitted to getting 3,000 submissions and only censoring 2,400 of them.

Apprently they feel that an 80% negative response is a “success”. Good lord how low do you have to be aiming to call THAT a success?
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May 18, 2011 10:34am
david

Hint to townies, keep an eye on your local pharmacist. Conferences (with partner’s programmes) are held in lots of really nice places around the world. I’m aware of one recently in Venice and have a bit of a problem with the attendance costs being deductable for both directors of the company that owns the chemist shop especially since it became the platform for a very nice tour of the high spots of Europe. Probably just jealousy but then ….
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May 18, 2011 10:36am
Bevan

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/17/opinion/17abbas.html?_r=2&ref=opinion

Just loved this, wish they’d speak the truth like this more often.

The truth my arse!

“Shortly thereafter, Zionist forces expelled Palestinian Arabs to ensure a decisive Jewish majority in the future state of Israel, and Arab armies intervened.”

Abbas would have us believe the Palestinians left to escape those mean Zionists! And those noble Arab nations only intervened to protect the poor Palestinians. Pull the fucken other one!
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May 18, 2011 10:56am
Pete George

david/grumpy – I’m aware there are many tax dodges including business conferences (I’ve attended some), not declaring cash sales, mates rates, under the counter tradesmen, trading below the GST and income radar.

A widespread consensus is that whaever you can get away with is fair game, and it’s only the other cheating pricks who should pay more tax or get less benefits.
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May 18, 2011 10:59am
TripeWryter

Bevan:

do you know very much about what happened in Palestine in the year or so leading up to the granting of statehood to Israel?

Are you aware that for the Jews to have their homeland in Palestine the Palestinians had to be displaced?

The Palestinians didn’t leave to escape those mean Zionists. They were driven out.

I suggest you go and read about the massacre by Zionist terrorists at the Palestinian village of Deir Yassin, which was near Jerusalem.
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May 18, 2011 11:05am
Other_Andy

Bevan (3,430) Says:
Yep….
The petro-dollar buys a lot of influence and propaganda.
As Goebbles said; “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.”
One of my favourite bloggers on the subject;
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2011/05/nakbacide.html
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May 18, 2011 11:08am
TripeWryter

Grumpyoldhori:

re your last question: I don’t know. But the settlers, and the Israeli governments that have supported and encouraged them, can’t complain if they get pushed out.
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May 18, 2011 11:18am
Brian Smaller

@Grumpy – that it the smartest thing you have ever said on here. Well said.
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May 18, 2011 11:18am
Brian Smaller

Tripe – do you know that a million Jews were displaced from their traditional homes in Saudit Arabia and Yemen and such like in 1948? The ‘Palestinians’ should have stayed put instead of believing the Arab League when they said they would massacre the Jews and the Arabs could go and take all their farms and homes.
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May 18, 2011 11:20am
Brian Smaller

wreck – a lot of farmers put in pools, especially when there were subsidies to do so. I have a pool. 60,000l of water close to the house is good in case there is a fire.
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May 18, 2011 11:23am
Murray

Tripe are you aware that Jews have uninterupted occupation of Israel for over 5,000 years?

Are you aware that the only reason there was any so called “Palestinians” there was that they were attracted by the prosperity of the Jewish settlements built in the early 1900s.

Are you aware that Arad terrorist attacks against Jews began in the 1920’s? Bit tricky to trot out the state of Israel as the cause of that.

Are you aware that Arabs were not driven our but chose to reject the UN settlement which included land and demanded it all then attempted to drive out all the Jews with a slightly negative result?

Are you aware that so called “Palestine” included about half of the suronding arab territory? Yet no one is bitching at them to give back land.

Are you aware that the “Palestinian refugee problem” was caused by Arabs nations not allowing them in but holding them in camps and telling them to attack Israel? In fact Lebanon has a law that forbids any Paslestinian ever becoming a citizen.

Did you know that “Paelstine” is a Roman name suplanted on the area by titus after destroying the historic temple which has been usurped by a religion that didn’t even exist then but claims precedence?

Looks like theres a lot of truth you didn’t know fuck all about doesn’t it.
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May 18, 2011 11:33am
Shunda barunda

Bloody farmers!!

$1506 miserable friggin dollars annual income tax and they have the damned cheek to moan about WWF.

Well guess what, even with WFF I am contributing more of my income towards tax than these ‘back bone of the nation’ types.

Pretty weak effing back bone if you ask me.

Shameless hypocrisy.

And before you clowns start going on about employing others and bla bla bla, I also employ others, and collect 15% GST for the government on every friggin hour I and my employees work, Farmers don’t.

No wonder farmers complain about local body rates so much, it’s the one tax they can’t dodge, but even then they can claim it back.

Farmers are getting handsomely rewarded for their contribution to the economy, the least they could do is shut their ignorant traps and stop bloody whinging all the time.
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May 18, 2011 11:41am
adaman

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/budget-2011/5018904/Budget-2011-Student-loan-changes-will-drive-grads-away

what a load of BS.

oh its hard. lardy lah.

Im a student at the moment.

What i did was work my arse off during high school to earn money ,and put aside 10k before starting uni, this covered my first year accomadation. It eased the pressure off me in the sense so i didnt have to work 20 hours like this douche(first time poster dont know if i can say that). ITS CALLED FINANCIAL FU$%&NG PLANNING

I planned that i was going to uni, hence i worked and saved to pay for my first year residential living. People need to understand the onus is on them, not the bloody govt, to pay for choice to go to uni. you dont need the full amount saved before hand, bt have atleast something to ease the pressure once you are at uni.

For example, if you plan on buying a house, you save for years generally, in order to build up a deposit to pay for your house. you dont go in willy nilly with no savings/deposit, and then ask the govt for help to pay your mortgage. SAME BLOODY THING APPLIES TO GOING TO UNI.

bloody leftist NZ… ooohhh im hard done by, i a victim of oppressive hard working earners, i deserve something. Gives me all the more reason to pack my bags once im done studying, BUT only after i pay back my loan, because i dont want to see this country go down the gutter.

BTW, im from a low-mid socioeconomic family, so i dont get money from my parents, i do get an allowance, which i use carefully and i work here and there to cover any extra costs.

its called planning people. WAKE UP
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May 18, 2011 11:44am
Mick Mac

Hey Tripe

Here’s some more info to read in the throne room next time you go.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article/the-palestinian-proletariat/
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2011/05/arab-apartheid-ben-dror-yemini-must.html
http://www.hudson-ny.org/1111/what-about-the-arab-apartheid
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May 18, 2011 11:49am
Bevan

do you know very much about what happened in Palestine in the year or so leading up to the granting of statehood to Israel?

Oh please, you are ignoring the many other reasons why the Palestinians left their homeland and focusing your blame solely on “those evil Jews”!

Why do you ignore the calls the Arab leadership made for the Palestinians to leave? Promising them the whole land once they had driven the Jews into the sea – which is laughable as no doubt if that had eventuated they would have fought amongst themselves over who got to keep the holy land.

Why do you ignore the fact that the Arab leadership was stating their opposition and their intention to destroy the new state of Israel prior to it even becoming a state?

@ Brian 11:20 & Murray 11:33 – beat me to it.
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May 18, 2011 11:51am
Mick Mac

Bevan
how can you state what you do! Everyone knows the Arabs don’t lie and are peace loving, they always keep their promises and honour all that they sign.
There were no attacks, rapes and killings against Jewish people in the British Palestinian Mandate area from 1920 onwards surely.
I have it on good authority that it is all a lie that the British turned a blind eye to upcoming attacks by Arabs and even searched Jewish settlements just before to confiscate illegal arms so that they were defenceless.

I don’t know how you can say what you do!
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May 18, 2011 11:56am
tom hunter

Farmers can be very asset rich but income poor – it is the way they structure their accounting.

That farmers are asset rich and income poor has been the standing in-joke of the community for decades. But it’s a result of the nature of the operation rather than the structure of the accounting. Farmers have large cash inflows and outflows applying to this part of the food production business, as opposed to the downstream processing that involves the more common aspect of business assets – machines and factories, which decline in value with use and therefore have depreciation applied to them to aid further investment in new plant and machinery.

I suppose you could think of the land as a machine, with all the inputs required to make it useful for modern farming regarded as maintenance and with depreciation applying. But of course one does not replace the land every few years: if the inputs stop it does not waste away to nothing but sits idle awaiting another use (bush walks perhaps!).

In any case I’m sure the Left’s answer will be some form of land tax, thereby insuring that farmers will be both asset and income poor. We’re heading for some sort of wealth tax with …

Labour having a go at farmers:

Ah yes. The state is slowly but surely running out of money so it’s time to find new sources of revenue. I’ve been expecting this for several years now: farmers are the perfect target, being a small part of the voting population, relatively wealthy and easy prey for traditional NZ class warfare presenting as envy and a desire for egalitarianism (see Shunda’s open acceptance of what “some media” have reported). Speaking as a medium-sized farmer my annual tax payments remain in the five-figure category, as they have for decades. I’m sure that should please you.

Oh well. I’ve been slowly putting the pieces in place for a sale sometime in the next decade. In fact I’ve already had an invitation to discuss a sale from the nearby Maori Trust. Speaking of which …

But the biggest gap is Maori incorporations and Trusts who, I believe, have a special tax rate that does not get adjusted when the income flows down to the beneficiaries. Now that one flies below the radar.

Indeed. My accountant wrote some letter or submission on this to Government back in 2001 or 2002. As I recall the income tax rate is 19% on such trust beneficiaries – as opposed to normal tax rates on non-Maori trusts. I heard nothing further and assumed it has remained the law: perhaps some accountant is reading this and would like to correct the claim?

In any case, they’ll be the boys I shall be selling my farm to, ahead of an incoming Labour/Green government. Of course this trust has 7000 hectares and several large dairy operations so, as with most large corporate forms, it is perfectly positioned( via income and loss shiftings) to pull off a degree of legal tax avoidance that smaller operators like myself could not dream of.

Best of luck to the Left going after to these concerns. The 19% rate should already tell you where you’ll end up in that pursuit – you racists!
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May 18, 2011 12:12pm
tom hunter

Oops – “…. a sale ~~from~~ to the nearby Maori Trust”
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May 18, 2011 12:16pm
Bevan

I don’t know how you can say what you do!

Its easy when you don’t pull stuff out of your arse.
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May 18, 2011 12:19pm
TripeWryter

Murray:

I am aware that Jews have lived in Palestine/Israel for many centuries.

Your second sentence is much-repeated Zionist propaganda, which has always conveyed the myth of lazy Palestinians and industrious, hard-working Jews extracting productive land from desert.

I am aware that Arabs attacked Jews in the 1920s, which was when Zionists were settling there after World War 1. The displacement of Palestinians was beginning.

Your next sentence: you’re guilty of what you accuse me of. The Arabs rejected the partition plan because the Jewish settlers were apportioned 60 percent of the land, including most of the coast and the rich farm lands. The Arabs would get an enclave at Jaffa, the Gaza Strip, and some high country around Beersheba, in what is now the West Bank. At the time Zionist settlers made up one one-third of the population.

Menachem Begin, the leader of the terrorist Irgun group of Zionist radicals and who was responsible for the massacre at Deir Yasin, rejected the partition plan. The Jewish Agency accepted it, though.

Deir Yasin was the turning point. An American missionary in Jerusalem at the time, reported that the Jewish Agency had posted leaflets describing the massacre in many villages. Loudspeakers mounted on Jewish vehicles went about broadcasting in Arabic: “Unless you leave your homes the fate of Deir Yasin will be your fate.”

The Hungarian writer Arthur Koestler, a Jew, wrote that the Deir Yasin ‘bloodbath’ was the psychologically decisive factor in the “spectacular exodus of Arab refugees”.

Israel’s first president, Chaim Weizmann, called Deir Yasin a marvellous simplification of the ‘Arab population problem’.

Begin gloated over the effects of the massacre on Palestinians; of 800,00, only 165,000 remained when Israel became a state on May 15, 1948.

In 1950, as the murderous little braggart was claiming credit for the founding of Israel through what had happened at Deir Yasin: “Without Deir Yasin and the subsequent rout the present government could not absorb one-tenth of the immigrants.”

Jon Kimche, a Zionist writer, said: “The terrorists justified the massacre because it led to the panic flight of the remaining Arabs in the Jewish state area.”

As for what the neighbouring Arab states did, I can’t answer that, and I think it’s irrelevant to this discussion.

I will say, though, Murray, that you might want to read more, and less Zionist propaganda. There were Israelis at the time who were sickened by what happened at Deir Yasin. One of them was later a commander of the Israeli Air Force.

Brian Smaller makes a similar point. What I have always found interesting is that Jews have, and continue to do, live in all parts of the Arab, Muslim Middle East, and generally down the centuries have co-existed well with their neighbours. Some reports have said that the Iraqi pilot who flew a MiG 21 fighter jet to Israel in the 1960s was from a long-established family of Jews in Bagdad, some of whom were not happy with what he had done.
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May 18, 2011 12:27pm
Murray

History is not “zionist propaganda”. To claim so does nothing but expose your personal predudice.

Shit its not like we’re strangers to western anti-Semites who try to hide behind being “anti-zionist”. Theres nothing that you people wont excuse from terrorists and nothing that Israel can do that will satsify you except all die.

So you’ll have to excuse me if I find something more appealing to do that read your terrorist enabling propaganda… like scratch my ass.
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May 18, 2011 12:46pm
Mick Mac

Tripe
As for what the neighbouring Arab states did, I can’t answer that, and I think it’s irrelevant to this discussion.

yes you might well, say that.

What I have always found interesting is that Jews have, and continue to do, live in all parts of the Arab, Muslim Middle East, and generally down the centuries have co-existed well with their neighbors.

Yeah right!
You make out that they lived in peace and harmony, but you know that’s not correct and deliberately leave out that they had to or be killed and that they continue to live as Dhimmis (3rd class citizens in the country of their birth) if they are still there, in fact Arabs in Israel live better than do Jews in Arab countries.
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May 18, 2011 12:57pm
reid

Here’s the thing about Israel. You can find purportedly authoritative material backing up any particular view one may have, be it one like Mick Mac or Murray’s, or other ones.

Personally my views as to the reality are amongst the other ones, but I’ve come to realise its pointless debating it because each side merely repeats their own perspective and nothing ever changes, so what’s the point of engaging in this sort of discussion?

This is why when Israel is up to bat, I talk about different things such as the drop-dead obvious observation that Israel’s attitude hasn’t worked since first applied over 60 years ago so why not change it. I fail to understand the point of merely repeating well-known positions ad infinitum.
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May 18, 2011 1:04pm
TripeWryter

OK, Mick, Murray, and Bevan … I guess I’d better leave you to your collective arse-scratching then.

You know, Reid, you make very good points in your last paragraph.

The trouble is, the past has to be rehashed because many who argue today, especially on Israel’s side, have not grasped the history. Or the essential point that a people were displaced.
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May 18, 2011 1:05pm
Bevan

OK, Mick, Murray, and Bevan … I guess I’d better leave you to your collective arse-scratching then.

Oh diddums you poor dear! If you can’t stand an opposing view point, then kindly fuck off out of the debate.

The trouble is, the past has to be rehashed because many who argue today, especially on Israel’s side, have not grasped the history. Or the essential point that a people were displaced.

Thats right, and those on the Palestinians side are pure as the whitest snow… I guess they shouldnt have backed the Arabs then.

So who started the 1948 war? The 1953 war? The 1973 war?

Oh no, but lets hold the Jews to blame for everything all because the started one war in 1967 – mind you, if the Arab armies were massing at my border, you can bet your bottom dollar I’d launch a preemptive attack on their arses as well!

Face up to the fact that your beloved Palestinians, and their Arab mates are just as much to blame for the situation as the Israelis.
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May 18, 2011 1:18pm
reid

many who argue today, especially on Israel’s side, have not grasped the history

Oh no, but lets hold the Jews to blame for everything all because the started one war in 1967

This is what I mean.

This always happens.

What’s the point?

I have to say, to those conservatives who hold to an Israel-is-compelled-by-circumstance-to-act-as-it-does view, that on this Israel issue you display a remarkable similarity to those lefties you decry who love AGW so much. You can tell this by your over-reaction and mis-interpretation such as displayed in that quote above, from Bevan. It borders on hysteria, your reaction. This is, as I say, exactly what one observes when a lefty defends AGW. It’s also exactly what one observes when a Green discusses human rights or the enviwonment.

It’s interesting you can’t see it yourselves, for I know you don’t, otherwise you wouldn’t do it. But it’s there, believe me.
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May 18, 2011 1:44pm
DJP6-25

Other_Andy 11:08 am. Thanks for that link.

cheers

David Prosser
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May 18, 2011 1:55pm
DJP6-25

Murray 11:33 am. You’re right.

cheers

David Prosser
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May 18, 2011 1:59pm
Bevan

I have to say, to those conservatives who hold to an Israel-is-compelled-by-circumstance-to-act-as-it-does view, that on this Israel issue you display a remarkable similarity to those lefties you decry who love AGW so much.

Thanks Reid, you’ve just proved my point! Why do you ignore everything prior to 1967? Why the 67 borders, not the ones prior to 53? Or 73?

You can tell this by your over-reaction and mis-interpretation such as displayed in that quote above, from Bevan. It borders on hysteria, your reaction.

Over-reaction my arse, it is a valid point. Pro Palestinians CONSTANTLY ignore any facts which shows the Arabs side in a bad light, always focusing on the wrongs caused to the Palestinians. Sorry Reid, that is dishonest and one of the main contributors to middle east dysfunction – Palestinians are constantly fed this bullshit mantra that its all the Israelis fault for their predicament – absolute BULLSHIT, the blame is shared by the Israelis, with the Arab neighbors AND the Palestinians.

It’s interesting you can’t see it yourselves, for I know you don’t, otherwise you wouldn’t do it. But it’s there, believe me.

And I find it interesting you believe the shit you are shoveling! How you could type that line without seeing the sheer hypocrisy in your words is astounding! At least I can see the fault in ALL sides, and not ignore the wrongs performed by the side I support!
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May 18, 2011 2:00pm
simpleton1

For me I am surprised that the dairy farm taxes are so low, perhaps owners may be in another catergory as investor?, retired? running another business, or nurse, school teacher etc* Well some went bust and walked off too.

Even if they are claiming interest costs on bank loans, they can not claim an offset GST on that, so will be paying considerable GST tax, as also on any Principal, no matter how it is treated.

Even the taxes they pay can not be used to offset GST, and if they draw money to pay the tax then that will be taxed too.
I do realize that taxes go up and down in cycles, and if a business goes low on tax then there is not money there to reinvest, and then pressure builds up so capital is pulled out of income, either to invest or repay borrowings, then taxes really do increase wildly. Hopefully they have good banks to borrow from to pay the tax.

I do know that some areas last season did have some short dry times so the dairy farmers did buy in a lot of feed, maize, silage, palm kernel, to keep the cows going so perhaps there is no surprise that their was very little profit. Perhaps the wife out working *as teacher or nurse etc to keep the farm going, food on table, should have been extra taxed ??.

Perhaps there is a cost in not only paying effluent fines, but considerable expenditure in changing systems then RMA to meet the moving goal posts of regional councils. Yes science is helpful as pollution and effects and what systems do work and some that do not work are figured out and at on going costs are adapted and worked on. Professional advice from 10 years ago has changed a lot.

Would this also include share milkers? contract milkers, herd managers? dairy farm workers?
Would be really great if the farm owner had 33% taken off his gross income then told the 50% share milker or 20-30% contract milker that he will only get to share from the after tax part. Of course forgetting that the owner must supply many things also for the good running of the farm.

If inputs(fertilizers) are not put into land it does not just sit idle awaiting another use.
The modern grasses deteriorate, weeds such as thistles, ragwort,(Of course in certain districts the councils will enter and charge at bureaucratic costs to try and control certain weeds) gorse, broom, blackberry, then perhaps ferns and manuka, eventually leading to a mixture of trees, like willow, pines and perhaps some native bush, where some bush wild life walk would be very nice and enhance our 100% green and pure. Perhaps a nice restaurant with top chefs could make a living there from the walking tourists, and employ staff??

Rates would still be charged and if not paid would go into interest charges and then said property is sold up.

A few farms are sold at high prices setting a high government valuation, the flavour of the month, and then the other farm next door has to pay increasing rates at that valuation and to do that is then often driven to convert by the land tax charged by councils to what ever business is the flavour of the month/year, or to sell (if the pressure is too much) to some entity that will do the changes.
I see some farms nearby are now for sale at barely 50% of government valuation, and there are always some exceptions, such as close to a city so ideal for subdivision and life style lots.

It does not take much of farm even in some country areas to pay over ten of thousands in rates, yet have to at their costs supply house water, sewerage systems, electricity line costs. This what drives farmers to improve, develop, change, upgrade regardless of the costs and borrowings. As one told me if only he could sit back and enjoy the income, but new rules and regulations (shifting goal posts) and so costs force him to borrow to up grade, as he said in a few short years he could see he would become uneconomic, if he did not. The days of the little 100 cow farm is long gone, when even a 300 cow farm was thought to be huge. Probably even a 300 cow farm is now marginal, and certainly would have to be debt free.

Funny how I know at least 2 dairy farms in my area had their owners families walk off in the last 2 years, with very little to show, and a neighbouring share milker going off and he and his wife will work for the banks to pay off his debts for the next 5 years if the banks agree. Certainly would not have paid much if any income tax, and all I see are some shattered families. Sure some may have been their faults, and the banks had lent to them almost insisting during those heady times. Yeah too good to be true, as I fear NZ has one day to wake up too.

Admittedly this is a rant, but I have been in business and paid taxes and some years considerable taxes, that just had to go on the OD, and simply the family for years just had to do with out. Now things are established, (for how long) why should I not live a bit better, and of course I still pay taxes at the rate as applied to my income.

Any farmer who diddles IRD is a fool (penalties/fines are harsh), and audits are often enough and thorough and expenditure these days is all figured to what is personal and what is an expense. As all expenses must be itemized and on a GST tax invoice.
The odds are that a farmer does not always claim all expenses, if he pays cash or lost the tax invoice, for what is an expense.
The main business of dairying goes thru a company and bank statements. Even selling bobby calfs or to calf rearers, they want to deduct the cost of a calf for their tax purposes, so there is a real paper trail.
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May 18, 2011 2:05pm
reid

Why do you ignore everything prior to 1967? Why the 67 borders, not the ones prior to 53? Or 73?

Bevan I’m not even discussing it. I’m pointing out something completely different. I haven’t given you my view and I’m not going to.

Over-reaction my arse, it is a valid point.

Bevan hysteria and validity are two separate unconnected arenas that don’t affect each other. Validity is determined by rational objective analysis. Hysteria is someone’s more or less emotional reaction to a proposition that runs counter to their belief. The extent to which one has a hysterical reaction is one question. The validity or otherwise of the point or counter-point is a totally separate question.

I’m noting a fact, you can read it in your comment. Your reaction to “many who argue today, especially on Israel’s side, have not grasped the history” which was:

“Oh no, but lets hold the Jews to blame for everything all because the[y] started one war in 1967”

is hysterical. It is. Sorry, it just is. I can explain precisely why if you really don’t believe me.

That’s all I’m saying, i.e. I’m not saying anything about validity.
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May 18, 2011 2:10pm
reid

Anyway, here’s a good article on AGW that’s bound to get at least one lefty a bit hysterical, as well.

Oh dear.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/8517479/The-inconvenient-truth-is-that-theyre-wrong.html
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May 18, 2011 2:13pm
TripeWryter

The trouble is, Bevan, you can’t debate without becoming abusive. We’ve been at this place before, and then you try to make it out that it’s never your fault.

I cannot and will not be bothered with that.
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May 18, 2011 2:18pm
reid

TripeWryter why is it that people get bothered by ad homina on a blog? I’ve got no problem with it if or when its directed at me, as it sometimes is, especially when Israel comes up (isn’t that peculiar, I wonder why?), and I’ve always wondered why anyone would ever take any offence at all, in anyway, no matter what is said about them?

I mean, sticks and stones you know.

I’m not saying you are but I have noticed lefties in particular are particularly fragile about this and that makes me smile inside, for it shows they can dish it out but they can’t take it.

I agree it doesn’t add anything toward resolving the discussion but it can be very amusing, this is when you miss Redbaiter, quite a lot.
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May 18, 2011 2:27pm
KevinH

It would be fair to say that Labour is walking away from the rural sector with it’s criticism of farmers taxation. It is plainly an insult because the figures don’t stand up to scrutiny.
I live in a rural area, Rodney, and over the years have watched farmers struggle with exorbitant land prices, compliance costs, rates etc. None of the cow cockies around here are wealthy, without them New Zealand would have gone down the gurgler 5 years ago.
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May 18, 2011 2:43pm
TripeWryter

Reid:

I don’t take offence, as such. I try to be civil. I’m happy to debate the facts and relevant opinions civilly.

If I am proven to be mistaken, then I acknowledge that, and I have done so on previous topics.

But I can’t be bothered when stuff gets introduced, such as my being challenged on things I never said.

As for ‘fragile’ lefties … well, presumably a ‘leftie’, and one who feels ‘fragile’, will have to answer for him(her) self.
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May 18, 2011 2:46pm
Bevan

Bevan I’m not even discussing it. I’m pointing out something completely different. I haven’t given you my view and I’m not going to.

So you’re just going to flick shit from the side lines, denigrate anyones point as ‘hysterical’, make out your some magnanimous individual. Yet, all the while you refuse to present a point.

A little hypocritical don’t you think, critiquing everyone elses opinion while refusing to provide your own.

I’m noting a fact, you can read it in your comment. Your reaction to “many who argue today, especially on Israel’s side, have not grasped the history” which was:

“Oh no, but lets hold the Jews to blame for everything all because the[y] started one war in 1967″

is hysterical. It is. Sorry, it just is. I can explain precisely why if you really don’t believe me.

Its called sarcasm, you’re not the only one allowed to use it!

Oh sorry, is my use of an exclamation mark ‘hysterical’ too?
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May 18, 2011 2:51pm
Owen McShane

The claim about tax related only to Income tax.

Dairy farmers are certainly paying their GST – hard to avoid.

But then they typically get stung $30,000 to $50,000 in rates. Even though they get little service and the rate is struck on the capital value of the land which has no relation to income from year to year.

And yes about 30 Maori Companies are registered as Charities by the Charities Commission.
The Ngai Tahu Charities Group covers more than 30 separate registered charities including companies such as Ngai Tahu Capital Ltd, Ngai Tahu Finance Ltd, Ngai Tahu Fisheries Ltd, Ngai Tahu Property Investments Ltd, Ngai Tahu Joint Ventures Ltd, Wigram Aerodrome Ltd, South Island Landbase Ltgd, Ngai Tahu Forest Estates Ltd, Helijet Ltd, Shotover Jet Ltd (which was once listed on the stock exchange), Huka Falls Jet Ltd, Rainbow Springs Ltd, Westland Tourism Ltd, and Dart River Safaris Ltd.

These all appear to be business enterprises that have managed to be registered as Charities and hence gain tax exempt status.
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May 18, 2011 2:53pm
Bevan

The trouble is, Bevan, you can’t debate without becoming abusive. We’ve been at this place before, and then you try to make it out that it’s never your fault.

Oh harden up princess – I can’t help it if you can’t stand being told a blatant lie you’ve peddled is bullshit.

And um, lets see who was the first to get remotely abusive shall we…

Tripewriter, 1.05pm “OK, Mick, Murray, and Bevan … I guess I’d better leave you to your collective arse-scratching then.”
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May 18, 2011 2:56pm
reid

Its called sarcasm, you’re not the only one allowed to use it!

It would be dismissed as mere sarcasm if you were balanced Bevan but you’re not, in exactly the same way lefties aren’t balanced when considering AGW.

The points people who believe Israel is compelled to act as she does constantly bring out contribute nothing toward changing the strategy which palpably doesn’t work. This is not rational.

To hold the view that Israel has no other choice is to admit defeat and to accept that human minds cannot possibly conceive the solution to this. To admit that we’re just not capable as a species, of resolving this issue. That’s what you and people who think like you, are saying. Whether you admit it or not, that’s the only possible conclusion one can extrapolate, from your position.

Now to me, that’s fucking nuts, and palpably wrong. I refuse to accept human minds are incapable of resolving this and therefore, the answer is out there. Now when seeking an answer to something like this, the only rational thing to do, is start by crossing off the things that have been tried and proven not to work.

Now tell me Bevan, where is the hole in that logic?
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May 18, 2011 3:18pm
Other_Andy

reid (7,274) Says:
“Now to me, that’s fucking nuts, and palpably wrong. I refuse to accept human minds are incapable of resolving this and therefore, the answer is out there. Now when seeking an answer to something like this, the only rational thing to do, is start by crossing off the things that have been tried and proven not to work.”
I think Israel has made quite a few concessions…..
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/how-the-israeli-political-left-aids-palestinians/?singlepage=true

The problem is, it is not about the ‘Palestinians’ or even about a ‘two-state’ solution (The ‘Palestinians already have a state, it is called Jordan.).

First a few facts (Check them out)
The PLO was founded in 1964. This was 3 years BEFORE Israel ‘occupied’ the West Bank and Gaza.
The PLO was not to liberate Palestine. It called for the destruction of the Zionist state and for the establishment of a “Palestinian entity”. Syria and Jordan DID NOT WANT a Palestinian state.
When it was founded, the PLO did NOT want the West Bank which was part of Jordan, or the Gaza Strip which was part of Egypt…
The PLO was founded in 1964 as an initiative of Arab states and was initially headed by Ahmed Shokairy. He was born in Lebanon to an Arab father, a Turkish mother and became a member of the Syrian delegation to the United Nations. He said himself that “It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria.”.
Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian leader, was an Egyptian, born in Cairo in 1929.
If the “occupation” of the West Bank and Gaza by Israel is the obstacle to peace, as has been endlessly proclaimed by Arafat and others, what was the motivation to create the PLO to strike at Israel at a time when Israel had no role in those territories? Why did the PLO and other Arab terrorist groups continually attack Israel at that time? If Jerusalem is so important to the Palistinian Arabs, why is it that the Palestinian National Covenant of 1964, does not even once mention Jerusalem?
All this has NOTHING to do with justice for the so called Palestinians.
The ‘Palestinian people’ are cannon fodder for the Muslim aspiration to include Israel in Dar al Islam.

As Ahmadinejad has said…….
The occupying regime must be wiped off the map. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. This would be a defeat and whoever accepts the legitimacy of this regime has in fact, signed the defeat of the Islamic world. Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in Palestine, and we witness it in the Islamic world too, will eliminate this disgraceful stain from the Islamic world.”
The destruction of the Jewish state of Israel is just another step in the desire to create a world without Fitnah where all submit to the religion of Allah alone (Qur’an 8:39).
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May 18, 2011 4:02pm
dog_eat_dog

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5021302/Banks-makes-his-move-for-Epsom

Disgraceful byline – “Career politician John Banks has today put his name forward to be the Act party’s candidate for the Epsom electorate.”

I doubt Fairfax will be calling Goff, Cunliffe, King et al ‘career politicians’ at any stage.
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May 18, 2011 4:16pm
TripeWryter

dog_eat_dog: it’s not a byline. It’s an intro (first sentence in a story), which I see from the stuff site has been changed now.

A byline is the writer’s signature. E.g., by dog_eat_dog.
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May 18, 2011 4:30pm
Other_Andy

TripeWryter (548) Says:
“What I have always found interesting is that Jews have, and continue to do, live in all parts of the Arab, Muslim Middle East, and generally down the centuries have co-existed well with their neighbours.”

About that living in piece thing…..

Hijra year 5 (627 AD), Almost nine hundred Jews of a Medinan tribe named Banu Qurayza were massacred by Muslims in one day. Muhammad, the prophet of Islam was the lead spectator of this inhumane butchery which began early in the day, ending in torchlight. Those who escaped death were taken captive by Muslims and sold in slave markets. This genocide is known in history as the Banu Qurayza incident.
On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants.
In 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive. The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.
Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by Muslim ruler Idris I;
North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities;
Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews;
Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830
Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.
Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854-859, 1344) and Yemen (1676).
More than a thousand Jews were killed in anti-Jewish rioting during the 1940’s in Egypt, Syria and Yemen.
On 1–2 June 1941, the Farhud pogrom in Iraq killed between 200 and 400 Jews.
In 1945, anti-Jewish rioters in Tripoli, Libya killed 140 Jews
1920 Nabi Musa riots
Four Arabs and five Jews were killed, while wounded were 216 Jews, 18 critically; 23 Arabs, one critically.
1921 Jaffa riots
The riot resulted in the deaths of 47 Jews and 48 Arabs, with 146 Jews and 73 Arabs being wounded. Most Arab casualties resulted from clashes with British forces attempting to restore order.
1929 Palestine riots
During the week of riots, at least 116 Arabs and 133 Jews were killed and 339 wounded.
1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine
Lots more….

And in between the massacres…
Peoples subjected to Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians were allowed as dhimmis (protected persons) to practice their faith. This “protection” did little, however, to insure that Jews and Christians were treated well by the Muslims. On the contrary, an integral aspect of the dhimma was that, being an infidel, he had to openly acknowledge the superiority of the true believer–the Muslim.
In the early years of the Islamic conquest, the “tribute” (or jizya), paid as a yearly poll tax, symbolized the subordination of the dhimmi. Later, the inferior status of Jews and Christians was reinforced through a series of regulations that governed the behavior of the dhimmi. Dhimmis, on pain of death, were forbidden to mock or criticize the Koran, Islam or Muhammad, to proselytize among Muslims or to touch a Muslim woman (though a Muslim man could take a nonMuslim as a wife).
Dhimmis were excluded from public office and armed service, and were forbidden to bear arms. They were not allowed to ride horses or camels, to build synagogues or churches taller than mosques, to construct houses higher than those of Muslims or to drink wine in public. They were not allowed to pray or mourn in loud voices-as that might offend the Muslims. The dhimmi had to show public deference toward Muslims-always yielding them the center of the road. The dhimmi was not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, and his oath was unacceptable in an Islamic court. To defend himself, the dhimmi would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense. This left the dhimmi with little legal recourse when harmed by a Muslim.
Dhimmis were also forced to wear distinctive clothing. In the ninth century, for example, Baghdad’s Caliph al-Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany.
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May 18, 2011 4:36pm
reid

The occupying regime must be wiped off the map.

I repeat, the current strategy is palpably flawed. It’s been tried for sixty long years and nothing has improved. Possibly if the US meddled less in the region and didn’t play oil geopolitics things might be different but OTOH Israel plays that up as much as it possibly can cause without the US, it’s pretty well fucked. The rise of China and the corresponding decline in US power and influence over the next two decades, is a powerful reason for Israel to change its behaviour and address this cause unless it wins other international supporters to its side it has a serious issue on its hands. The only repeat only way to get other nations on board (i.e. those nations who don’t have some sort of unstated belief that Israel must be protected at all costs no matter what) is to change behaviour. There is no other way.

I have been through this so many times I get sick of repeating, but here goes again for hopefully the last time. Nothing I have said above has to mean Israel’s national security is compromised in anyway. Please don’t suggest it does, because it doesn’t. Of course it could mean that, it’s possible, if you got some sort of slack-jawed yokel in as Head of Mossad for example, but my point is it doesn’t have to happen. It’s not an inevitable outcome of Israel changing her behaviour.

Now I’m also not saying that this would necessarily produce the desired effect and get nations such as India on board in twenty or so years. I’m not saying it would necessarily work, what I’m saying is that you may as well give it a go, cause the current strategy is as I say, not working. It isn’t. There is no dispute there, is there?

So given that, what is the rational approach and what is the non-rational, given definition of insanity is expecting a different result from doing the same thing?
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May 18, 2011 4:41pm
Bevan

It would be dismissed as mere sarcasm if you were balanced Bevan but you’re not, in exactly the same way lefties aren’t balanced when considering AGW.

Oh teh hypocrisy! I’m being far more balanced than yourself on this topic. At least I have stated that all parties are as much at fault as the other. Where have you done the same?

The points people who believe Israel is compelled to act as she does constantly bring out contribute nothing toward changing the strategy which palpably doesn’t work. This is not rational.

True, and neither is it rational to constantly forgive (or is it totally ignore?) the sins of the Arabs and Palestinians. The Arabs and Palestinians are not as lilly white in this matter as you make out.
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May 18, 2011 5:17pm
reid

neither is it rational to constantly forgive (or is it totally ignore?) the sins of the Arabs and Palestinians. The Arabs and Palestinians are not as lilly white in this matter as you make out

The details of what is done is not under discussion Bevan, the question is, should anything at all change, in Israel’s behaviour?

Yes, or no.

All parties are at fault. So what? That doesn’t mean anything, in context of the question under discussion.
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May 18, 2011 5:32pm
TripeWryter

The Other Andy:

That was very interesting, and thanks.

Just to clarify, though: I never said massacres of Jews throughout the Muslim Middle East (and North Africa) never happened. I knew there had been massacres. I said Jews “generally down the centuries have co-existed well with their neighbours”, and despite your foregoing, I still believe that.

After all, the push for the Jewish homeland (i.e., Zionism) didn’t come from persecuted Middle East or North African Jews, but from Eastern Europeans.

Interesting as your catalogue of massacres and injustices against Jews is, I am talking about the displacement of a people from their homeland so an immigrant people could have theirs. I am not discussing Islam as a ‘religion of peace’, nor what the president of Iran says, because he doesn’t speak for me, nor do I say one terrorist is more principled than another.

An injustice was committed against the Palestinians. And while they still feel aggrieved, and while Israel still thinks — after 63 years — that it can deal with them only with their military, then the sore will continue to weep. Reid makes good points.

Hence, I suppose, the Abbas op-ed in The New York Times, a reference to which started this thread.
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May 18, 2011 5:52pm
nickb

So Banks looks set to stand for ACT in epsom.

Great. Looks like I won’t even bother voting this election. Why Brash has to invite such confused left wingers in disguise on board is beyond me.
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May 18, 2011 6:01pm
reid

Why Brash has to invite such confused left wingers in disguise on board is beyond me.

Which particular lefty strands do you abhore most in Banks, nick?
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May 18, 2011 6:11pm
dog_eat_dog

Sorry tripe. I was a developer in a past life, never a journalist. Early CMS systems I used on website always ran that part of a story as a ‘by-line’ (as opposed to a headline) and the writer field was always “Author”. I blame some un-supervised open source wanker for my confused state.
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May 18, 2011 6:30pm
reid

Aposite to the Israel sub-thread is this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-left-reeling-after-deadly-border-breach-2285027.html

The closest Israel has ever come to peace was Rabin. If Israel is ever to come out of this, in good shape, it has to change, much much further than even the most extreme of what Rabin proposed, that’s how far they have to move, in terms of national thinking, in order for this to become embedded deeply enough to make a real and permanent difference.

If Israel doesn’t do this, it won’t come out of this in good shape and the longer it leaves this turning point, the more difficult it becomes for any meaningful results to appear before it’s all too late.
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May 18, 2011 6:39pm
nickb

Which particular lefty strands do you abhore most in Banks, nick?

Sorry, long day at the office. I was meaning to say that he is too conservative for the act party, which is meant to be about social freedom. He was been a bit of a chameleon on economic issues during his career as well. Just a poor calibre of candidate compared to Brash IMO.
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May 18, 2011 6:40pm
reid

OK nick however Brash I think has his own plan for getting in, either in Tamaki and/or as No.1 on the list.

I think Banks is quite a good addition for he complements the line-up with different skills to Brash and he connects directly to the National party heavy hitters which is what is required in a coalition. He’s his own man, as well and Brash needs people who’ll tell him it’s bullshit even when Brash says it and Banks will.

He’s definitely not an economic powerhouse of a thinker like Brash is, but I don’t think his opinion will be in much demand on those issues.

I see Banks as a kinesthetic politicians, a doer with connections, that’s his strength.

I really hope Stephen Franks comes back and stands/has a high list spot. I’ve never understood why the Nat’s didn’t snap him up, the only possible reason is, they don’t like independent thought, which one would hope, was not the reason. But what else could it have been?
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May 18, 2011 6:51pm
nickb

Agree with you about Stephen Franks, he is fantastic.
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May 18, 2011 7:02pm
Mick Mac

TripeWryter (550) Says:
May 18th, 2011 at 5:52 pm
Just to clarify, though: I never said massacres of Jews throughout the Muslim Middle East (and North Africa) never happened. I knew there had been massacres. I said Jews “generally down the centuries have co-existed well with their neighbours”, and despite your foregoing, I still believe that

Jews may have tried to coexist as them other options were to become Muslims or die.

You’re are either uninformed, misinformed or a liar.
http://www.dhimmitude.org
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May 18, 2011 7:13pm
grumpyoldhori

The Israelis seem to have this dream that the USA can/will stop the UN General assembly from recognising the Palestinian state, will not happen.

Israel annexes the West bank and does a bit of ethnic cleansing, well pissing off Turkey was bloody clever if they decide to aid their fellow Muslims.
That is after the EU stops all trade from Israel.
The EU would be happy to see either ethnic cleansing or apartheid on the West bank, nope.
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May 18, 2011 7:33pm
KH

I just want to note my admiration of Reid with his sticking to making his points in the face of pointless personal abuse.
Wonderful
If this comment of mine in itself draws abuse in turn. Then just consider there is no comment made here for or against the subject of the debate.
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May 18, 2011 7:39pm
James

Agree with nickb……I can no longer support ACT while Banks is involved…hes cancer.
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May 18, 2011 7:47pm
Hurf Durf

SmellyOldDumbass is obsessed with the Turks.

Pity for SOD that if Turkey does attack Israel to “defend its Muslim brothers” (unlikely considering the Turks hate every other non-Turk in the region and Iran in particular, and would need to go through Lebanon and Syria, neither of whom want to become battlefields for Erdogan’s regional ambitions) its dream of EU membership will be D-E-A-D.

Maybe Dumbass can take a few cuzzies and volunteer for the Turkish Army, would be funny when they get strafed by an Israeli Apache gunship.
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May 18, 2011 7:58pm
grumpyoldhori

James, come on dear boy he will be a wonderful candidate to help the Labour voters support National in the Epsom seat 🙂
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May 18, 2011 8:01pm
Viking2

GDP or Happiness? – Nobel prize winning economist Joe Stiglitz talks below about why GDP may not be the best measurement for economic and social progress.

The US spends 16% of GDP on health but has worse health care outcomes than France, he points out. This is counted as a GDP positive.

The US has ten times the number of prisoners than other industrialised countries, which is also counted as a positive for GDP.

Any different here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpR55Bahlbk&feature=player_embedded
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May 18, 2011 8:07pm
Hurf Durf

Money can’t buy you happiness but it bloody well gets you in the right direction.
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May 18, 2011 8:28pm
Mick Mac

Hurf
The word is they will never get EU membership until the EU goes Islamic.
mainly because they won’t fess up to the Armenian genocide.
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May 18, 2011 8:46pm
reid

Thank you sincerely KH most sincerely appreciated.

Money can’t buy you happiness but it bloody well gets you in the right direction.

Deciding which model of Ferrari to buy isn’t easy Hurf, lest you mis-understand.
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May 18, 2011 8:47pm
calendar girl

James@7:47 – “Agree with nickb……I can no longer support ACT while Banks is involved…hes cancer.”

How can you agree with Nick, James? The same Nick acknowledges at 6:40 that he was completely confused in his previous comment on Banks. Then he comes out with the sweeping fact-free generalisation that “He was (sic) been a bit of a chameleon on economic issues during his career as well.”

If you’re prepared to accept and publicly support penetrating analysis of that standard, well … good luck to you. You’ll join the majority of New Zealanders who determine their votes on personalities rather than on policies or performance.
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May 18, 2011 8:58pm
Hurf Durf

The word is they will never get EU membership until the EU goes Islamic.

I know.

But hey, you’ve got to keep the lure out, haven’t you? It’s fun watching politicians try and catch policy clouds, such as 100% cheap renewable energy.
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May 18, 2011 9:39pm
Viking2

A man was dining alone in a fancy restaurant and there was a gorgeous redhead sitting at the next table..He had been checking
her out since he sat down, but lacked the nerve to talk with her.

Suddenly she sneezed, and her glass eye came flying out of its socket towards the man. He reflexively reached out, grabbed it out of the air, and handed it back.

‘Oh my, I am so sorry,’ the woman said, as she popped her eye back in place.. ‘Let me buy your dinner to make it up to you.’

They enjoyed a wonderful dinner together, and afterwards they went to the theatre followed by drinks… They talked, they laughed, she shared her deepest dreams and he shared his. She listened to him with interest.

After paying for everything, she asked him if he would like to come to her place for a nightcap and stay for breakfast. They had a wonderful, wonderful time.

The next morning, she cooked a gourmet meal with all the trimmings. The guy was amazed. Everything had been so incredible!

‘You know,’ he said, ‘you are the perfect woman.. Are you this nice to every guy you meet?’

‘No,’ she replies. . …….

Wait for it … ….

It’s coming …… ….

The suspense is killing you, isn’t it?

She said … …:

‘You just happened to catch my eye.’
(Oh shut up, and just forward it!)
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May 18, 2011 10:07pm
RRM

Militant breastfeeding, eh?

http://i1010.photobucket.com/albums/af230/RRM22/breastfeedingpiechart.jpg
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May 18, 2011 10:16pm
reid

>Those who send us to war, do not have to pull a trigger, or lob a mortar round, they do not have to fight the war, they merely have to sell the war.

What if on top of everything else, Iraq becomes in hometown USA like Vietnam was?

It’s possible, isn’t it.
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May 18, 2011 11:15pm
Bobbie black

What was the coroner doing on Breakfast?

Just weird.

Achieved what?
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May 19, 2011 12:31am
Mick Mac

TripeWryter (550) Says:

Just saw this this morning and thought you might like to read it.

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2011/05/1948-when-iraqi-jews-found-out-that.html

heres the book in google books the article refers too.
http://books.google.com/books?id=fUjUxKe3LDAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Moshe+Gat+The+Jewish+Exodus+from+Iraq,+1948-1951&hl=en&ei=DJ3TTbvKKo_TgQe575Au&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Just love Google books, though print the books out to read as I don’t like screens that much for long reading.
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May 19, 2011 9:06am
TripeWryter

To Mick Mac:

Thanks very much. I’ve had a quick look at the book [I don’t much like screens, either, for reading] and saved the link.

I find it interesting. Thanks.

You made a remark last night about me being misinformed, ill-informed, or a liar. I willingly concede that I could be one or both of the first two. I try not to be the third, where words can come back to bite you.
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May 19, 2011 10:38am
Bevan

The details of what is done is not under discussion Bevan, the question is, should anything at all change, in Israel’s behaviour?

Of course they need to change, BUT so do the attitudes of the Arab nations and the Palestinians!

How often do we hear arab leaders describe Israel as “THE enemy”?
How often do the Palestinians plan and execute terrorist attacks on Israel?
How many rockets have been fired from gaza into Israel this year?
Why should Israel be the one to ‘give in’ while the Palestinians are firing rockets into Israeli territory, and Arab leaders (and citizens) are calling from Israel to be wiped off the map?

Again you are showing you bias, you expect only Israel the change as if the Palestinians and Arabs are faultless. Your position is absurd.

All parties are at fault. So what? That doesn’t mean anything, in context of the question under discussion.

WTF? This is the General Debate! You were not the first to define the Israel/Palestinian debate here, quite trying to make out only you can control it and define the terms of the discussion.
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May 19, 2011 11:39am

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