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April 22, 2011 8:40am by David Farrar

General Debate Good Friday 2011

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General Debate

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immigant

Penny. Have you ever lived outside NZ? Do you even know what real corruption looks like?
You think what National is or is not doing is any diffirent to what Labour and the Unions did beofre that?
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April 22, 2011 10:38pm
Zapper

“we”. This is good. Admitting there’s more than one of you in there is an important step.
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April 22, 2011 10:42pm
publicwatchdog

# reid (6,872) Says:
April 22nd, 2011 at 10:03 pm

Activist Post
Interrupt Your Regularly Scheduled Programming

Crikey.

(Expect this whenever the thread meanders into a Penny diversion, emphasis on “meanders.”

It’s shock therapy, you see.)”

errrr…. I just got 10 demerit points for apparently being ‘off-thread’, so according to David – who should know – given that it’s his blog and all – GENERAL DEBATE – doesn’t actually have ‘threads’?

GENERAL DEBATE is what you are now on Reid?

Or perhaps you hadn’t noticed?

Best you be careful YOU don’t go ‘off-thread’ ‘REid’ – given that David seems to be tightening up, and of course will apply his rules fairly and consistently to all?

😉

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
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April 22, 2011 10:52pm
Nookin

Hell, Penny you’ve just made mortal enemies of the Green Party. Just about half the forests in the country will need to be set aside to produce codes of conduct and registers that no-one, other than yourself is likely to read. Most of the issues that you have expressed concern about are well covered by the law as it is. Some are being worked on – though not, I might add, as a result of any apparent efforts on your part. Tell me, will they be issuing civil servants, councillors and MPs with wheelbarrows so that they can tote their codes of conduct around for quick reference?

You forgot one item. Do you think that watchdogs who solicit money from the public should be accountable – not only for the expenditure but also for the results achieved. Should those people be bound by a code of conduct or will they come within the definition of lobbyist? Is that you personal account on your web-site and if so do you spend any of that money on living expenses?

You condemn National for passing a law without a referendum. Despite the obvious fallacy in your argument, why is that contemptible but it is absolutely fine for you and Vince to openly defy the law simply because you do no agree with it? Isn’t that hypocritical?
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April 22, 2011 10:59pm
reid

Penny it’s not that you’re on or off thread on GD, I don’t care. (BTW you were out of bounds when DPF called you on it, on that other thread which wasn’t this one).

It’s that you never say anything original or interesting.

You’re also less interested in listening to counter-arguments and coming to a fact-based consensus than you are in propagating your perspective. You’re an extremely shallow transparent and superficial propaganda channel with no new information, in other words.

This is why you’re not worth engaging.

I thought I should explain myself before saying:

Over and out, forever, Penny, or until you change your tactics and never again practice the above.
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April 22, 2011 11:08pm
Nookin

“In my considered opinion – the first step to solving a problem is to clearly identify it.”

Actually Penny, you did not identify any problems at all. You gave a whole lot of solutions without really identifying the problem, the extent to which it may exist and what different options may be available for dealing with it – if in fact current arrangement are inadequate. Your whole philosophy is based on the premise that everyone bar you, Vince and Winston is corrupt and venal and must be straight-jacketed in codes and registers. Your adherence to the ravings of one Jacob Cohen is proof positive.
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April 22, 2011 11:09pm
publicwatchdog

# immigant (255) Says:
April 22nd, 2011 at 10:38 pm

Penny. Have you ever lived outside NZ? Do you even know what real corruption looks like?
You think what National is or is not doing is any diffirent to what Labour and the Unions did beofre that?”
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

What do YOU call ‘real’ corruption ‘immigant’?

‘Petty’ corruption or ‘grand’ corruption?

Are you familiar with a type of ‘grand’ corruption that is, in my considered opinion, endemic in NZ?

The type of ‘grand’ corruption known as ‘state capture’ – where vested interests get their way at the ‘policy’ level – before the legislation is passed?

How and why do you think the majority of Auckland citizens and ratepayers got the ‘$upercity – Super ripoff corporate raid forced upon us?

Ever heard of a group called the ‘Committee for Auckland’?

Just out of interest – have any others on Kiwiblog ever heard of the form of ‘grand corruption’ known as ‘state capture’?

Probably not?

(just as well some of us make the effort to get over to these significant ‘anti-corruption’ conferences so we can share what we have learned.

Without charging a CENT for our efforts!

How ‘public-spirited’ is THAT?

😉

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
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April 22, 2011 11:18pm
Rodders

Three examples of a worrying lack of transparency in NZ politics:

1. Non-Repayment of $158,000 overspending
2. Non-disclosure of a $100,000 Donation received toward legal costs
3. Political donations being deposited into the Spencer Trust before being disbursed to NZ First
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April 22, 2011 11:19pm
Nookin

OK Penny. Here is a definition I am comfortable with. I am off to bed. You can give specific examples (people and corporations involved, benefits conferred, outcomes achieved). I will read it in the morning with my laptop in my lap as I watch the pigs fly across the lake.

‘State capture’ obtains when a small number of firms (or such entities as the military) is able to shape the rules of the game to its advantage through massive illicit, and non-transparent provision of private benefits to officials and politicians. Examples of such behaviour include the ability to control legislative votes, to obtain favourable executive decrees and court decisions. A relatively new concept, the main proponents being World Bank researchers, it echoes that of ‘crony capitalism’ and covers cases where high-level corruption is pervasive. (See military-industrial complex; clientelism.)
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April 22, 2011 11:27pm
publicwatchdog

# Nookin (638) Says:
April 22nd, 2011 at 11:09 pm

“In my considered opinion – the first step to solving a problem is to clearly identify it.”

Actually Penny, you did not identify any problems at all. You gave a whole lot of solutions without really identifying the problem, the extent to which it may exist and what different options may be available for dealing with it – if in fact current arrangement are inadequate. Your whole philosophy is based on the premise that everyone bar you, Vince and Winston is corrupt and venal and must be straight-jacketed in codes and registers. Your adherence to the ravings of one Jacob Cohen is proof positive.”
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

Nookin – you might actually have a wider perspective if you removed your head from up your …. ?

You aren’t really a lawyer are you?

(Heaven help us…….)

Unless, of course you are someone who might be personally disadvantaged if there was in fact genuine ‘open, transparent and democratically accountable’ local and central government and judiciary?

SURELY NOT!

🙂

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

PS: Remind me again of WHAT law Vince Siemer has ever broken?

PPS: Do you believe that it is acceptable for Judges to make discretionary rulings which are NOT based upon the ‘Rule of Law’?
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April 22, 2011 11:30pm
publicwatchdog

# Rodders (801) Says:
April 22nd, 2011 at 11:19 pm

Three examples of a worrying lack of transparency in NZ politics:

1. Non-Repayment of $158,000 overspending”
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

You may have missed that I am still awaiting a response from the OAG on that issue, Rodders – unless you have the evidence that is actually the case?

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
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April 22, 2011 11:35pm
reid

Activist Post
Interrupt Your Regularly Scheduled Programming

Crikey.
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April 22, 2011 11:39pm
publicwatchdog

# reid (6,873) Says:
April 22nd, 2011 at 11:08 pm

Penny it’s not that you’re on or off thread on GD, I don’t care. (BTW you were out of bounds when DPF called you on it, on that other thread which wasn’t this one).

It’s that you never say anything original or interesting.

You’re also less interested in listening to counter-arguments and coming to a fact-based consensus than you are in propagating your perspective. You’re an extremely shallow transparent and superficial propaganda channel with no new information, in other words.

This is why you’re not worth engaging.

I thought I should explain myself before saying:

Over and out, forever, Penny, or until you change your tactics and never again practice the above.”

If I’m not ‘worth engaging’ Reid – why on EARTH do you bother?

Duh?

“Over and out, forever, Penny, or until you change your tactics and never again practice the above.”

So – I’m never going to hear from you again Reid?

YAY!

(Maybe there is a God? 😉

Actually, in my considered opinion – you are far too ill-disciplined to make a comment like that Reid.

I believe that you just won’t be able to help yourself, and you will not only READ my posts, but you will just not be able to contain yourself and you WILL comment.

Boyz can be SO silly, especially the little ones 😉

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpres.com
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April 22, 2011 11:46pm
reid

Activist Post
Interrupt Your Regularly Scheduled Programming

Crikey.
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April 22, 2011 11:53pm
publicwatchdog

# reid (6,875) Says:
April 22nd, 2011 at 11:53 pm

Activist Post
Interrupt Your Regularly Scheduled Programming

Crikey.”
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Good to see your incredible self-discipline lasted all of 7 minutes Reid!

Poor pathetic wee thing………….

Going to enlighten us all with something incredibly profound?

Like your last post?

😉

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
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April 23, 2011 12:06am
reid

Activist Post
Interrupt Your Regularly Scheduled Programming

Crikey.
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April 23, 2011 12:12am
James

Penny….who really destroyed the twin Towers on 9/11?
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April 23, 2011 12:40am
reid

Who do you think did it James?
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April 23, 2011 12:56am
James

Oh I just asking Penny because she posts 9/11 truther items on her site so I assume she believes it.
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April 23, 2011 2:21am
Manolo

The “charismatic” Scottish Brown keeps coming back from the grave:

According to The Pioneer of India, those five nations “have called for ‘a broad-based international reserve currency system providing stability and certainty.’”

The Wall Street Journal agreed that’s what’s going on, quoting Chinese central bank-governor Zhou Xiaochuan saying the G-20 nations are considering adding China’s currency to the four other in the SDR. “‘If someone suggests that the RMB should be in the SDR, I welcome this kind of opinion,’ Mr. Zhou told a panel discussion.”

He’s not alone. Michael Pettis, a finance professor at Peking University and a senior associate at the Soros-funded Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, claimed that the dollar is even bad for the United States. In a Financial Times opinion piece, he argued “America must give up on the dollar.” The Financial Times, you’ll remember, had five news employees speak at Soros’s Bretton Woods event, too.

The push for a new world currency wasn’t the only major news coming from the Soros conference, though most major news outlets ignored the entire gathering. The IMF might be getting a new leader, one of the speakers at the event in fact. According to the Daily Mail, former British Prime Minister Gordon Brown “has emerged as a favourite for the £270,000-a-year role after networking this week at a conference of policymakers at Bretton Woods in New Hampshire, where the IMF was founded.”

Brown is a perfect fit for the Soros economic view. At the conference, one of his takeaway lines was: “American and European dominance is no longer a fact.”
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April 23, 2011 4:42am
Manolo

Penny. Have you ever lived outside NZ?

Hell, no! How would she collect the welfare cheque being overseas?
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April 23, 2011 4:44am
Manolo

What side is Metro on? FFS, this is war and our troops are fighting terrorists.

NZ SAS prisoners tortured – report

Fresh questions are being raised about New Zealand’s elite SAS soldiers and their role in detaining prisoners and then handing them on to other forces who may have tortured them.

Metro magazine, published tomorrow, reveals three incidents – one in 2002 and two in 2010 – when the SAS took prisoners and handed them to other forces. In May 2002 the SAS led a mission in the village of Bande Timur, 80km west of Kandahar.

According to Metro, it resulted in the deaths of at least three people, including a small child, and the arrest and torture of many others after the SAS handed 55 prisoners over to US forces.

“They beat us very badly in prison,” one of the prisoners, Abdul Wahid, told Metro.

http://msn.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10720934&ref=rss
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April 23, 2011 5:21am
Pete George

Moved to new GD.
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April 23, 2011 8:10am
Nookin

Penny
Even if you had even the most basic understanding of our legal system you would know that our courts have had inherent jurisdiction to deal with many issues for hundreds of years and that they do so by exercising judicial discretion. It was the court system that developed the law of equity to fill in those strictures of the common law that may result in injustice. For the most part, many of the discretions exercised by the courts are based on sound, clear and fair equitable principles designed to do justice between parties. The courts also have discretions conferred by statute.
When Vince was banned from defending the defamation case the court was excercising jurisdiction conferred by the rules. Vince repeatedly refused to comply with court orders but still expected to participate in a process for which he had no respect and which he continued to defy. That is not a situation that many people find acceptable because it basically means that the rule of law falls down. It means that some people can chose what decisions bind them and what decisions do not. Is that what you mean by the rule of law? And are you and Vince the only people entitled to decide what decisions will prevail and what ones will not? In this case I totally support the court decisions and the subsequent decisions relating to the proceedings brought by the solicitor-general. So do the appellate judges. You, Penny are the one undermining the rule of law.

Everynow and then the court does come across an unusual situation and its decision becomes a precedent for the manner in which silmilar facts should be dealt in future. In these circumstance, some people might suggest that the courts are making it up on the hoof. You will find, however, that these decisions are thoroughly reasoned and principled. One such case was the decision to set aside the committal warrant against Finau. The court said it could not find a similar case. You boasted that it was groundbreaking – first of its kind. We have been down this track before. I asked you why it was ok for the court to make novel decisions if they favoured you but not otherwise. I have repeatedly pointed out your hypocrasy. You still cannot respond.

Your post above does not address my post. Like most posts where you are confronted with logic or are asked to substantiate propositions you resort to rhetoric, generalisations and evasion. You proceed on the platform that your original premise is factually correct ( ie in this case there is widespread corruption and only tomes of codes and registers are the solution) and ask supid questions.

In terms of a code for judicial conduct, did you write the tome that was presented to Judge Joyce demanding his recusal in the Jayawardena case. You will remember the one. He said he would not even dignify it with comment. Must have been a well reasoned and rational argument. Did you take that complaint further? Was it rubbished?
Your problem Penny is that you cannot see a dark room without suspecting that there is a conspiracy underway inside.

Tell me Penny. Do you think that watchdogs who solicit money from the public should be bound by a code of conduct. Should they produce, in advance, a proposal as to what the money is to be spent on? Should they produce audited accounts and statements of achievement? Is the bank account on your web-site your personal account and do you use any donations for living expenses. Or are you exempt? Is it only everyone else bar you, Vince and Winnie who is corrupt and venal?
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April 23, 2011 8:30am
Nookin

“You may have missed that I am still awaiting a response from the OAG on that issue, Rodders – unless you have the evidence that is actually the case?”
You do not need to hear from the OAG. I gave you the reference to the report. You can easily check the legislation. The evidence is out there. Everyone but you and Winston know it. What planet were you on when this was happening?
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April 23, 2011 11:01am

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