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April 23, 2011 8:05am by David Farrar

General Debate 23 April 2011

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Manolo

Rodney “Nowhere to be found” Hide could be in his last legs as party leader.

Former National leader Don Brash is making a bid for a political comeback as ACT party leader – if it will have him.
Dr Brash confirmed yesterday that if he was offered the ACT leadership he would take it, after previously rejecting behind-the-scenes efforts to woo him back to Parliament either as ACT leader Rodney Hide’s deputy or as co-leader.

Dr Brash said he would not contemplate returning to Parliament under either of those scenarios but would if offered the leadership.
His comments throw down the gauntlet before a crucial ACT board meeting next Saturday and breathe new life into ACT’s electoral prospects, which have been widely written off after a disastrous period for Mr Hide.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/4919996/Don-Brash-makes-bid-for-comeback-as-ACT-leader
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April 23, 2011 8:09am
Pete George

Wow, Brash and Banks, that’s a dynamic pair of up and coming politicians!

Don Brash makes bid for comeback as ACT leader

Dr Brash confirmed yesterday that if he was offered the ACT leadership he would take it.

His comments throw down the gauntlet before a crucial ACT board meeting next Saturday and breathe new life into ACT’s electoral prospects, which have been widely written off after a disastrous period for Mr Hide.

There is also speculation that former Auckland mayor John Banks would be keen to stand in Epsom if approached by ACT, suggesting he could be on a Brash ticket. The two men have business ties and speak regularly. Polls have shown that Mr Banks would win Epsom if he stood.

I’d hardly call it breathing new life. If the best Act can do is resurrect these old political dodders I don’t like their chances of rejuvenating their vote. Where the heck is the new talent?
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April 23, 2011 8:13am
big bruv

“Where the heck is the new talent?”

Yeah…you mean ‘achievers’ like Jacinda Ardern, Darren Hughes and Jami-Lee Ross?

No thanks, give me men of experience and men who have done something over career politicians and serial troughers.

This is ACT’s last chance to be a real force, Winston Hide has effectively destroyed the party in three short years, he simply must be replaced.
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April 23, 2011 8:18am
Manolo

How more ridiculous can this do-gooder be? This supreme fool wants to make virtue compulsory.

Archbishop of Canterbury says rich should help poor

Bankers, politicians and newspaper editors should be legally required to spend a couple of hours every year working with the poor and needy to remind them of the purpose of their power and wealth, the archbishop of Canterbury has suggested.

He made the comments on Maundy Thursday, the day of the Last Supper when Jesus washed the feet of his disciples and when the British monarch honours deserving subjects. Dr Rowan Williams asked: “What about having a new law that made all cabinet members and leaders of political parties, editors of national papers and the hundred most successful financiers in the UK spend a couple of hours every year serving dinners in a primary school on a council estate?

“Or cleaning bathrooms in a residential home? Walking around the streets of a busy town at night as a street pastor, ready to pick up and absorb something of the chaos and human mess you’ll find there, especially among young people?”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/apr/21/archbishop-canterbury-rich-help-poor
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April 23, 2011 8:21am
big bruv

Manolo

Can you imagine the outcry from pinko’s like the Archbishop of Canterbury if there was a call from the right to make dole bludgers work with the needy?

This is just another reason why religion is irrelevant in todays society.
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April 23, 2011 8:24am
Manolo

Bruv, I agree.

Rowan Williams is an imbecile of the highest order and a laughing stock. He and his church deserve to be ignored even further.
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April 23, 2011 8:30am
Nookin

So the primary schools lay off existing staff so that people who do not need the job or the money can do their work for nothing? Makes sense.
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April 23, 2011 8:34am
wat dabney

Remember, the Bible does sanction slavery. He’s just being a good Christian.
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April 23, 2011 8:38am
Michael

If Hide announces he is stepping down and Brash is standing in Epsom it will be the best news since Prebs won Wellington Central.
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April 23, 2011 9:03am
MyNameIsJack

EXCEPT – Brash doesn’t want to be elected by something as ordinary as the voters, he simply wants to be annointed as ACT Leader. Once more, the Stupidity of the Sense of Entitlement that imbues those on thr right, and the further right they go, the greater their sense of entitlement.

Brash trying to upstage Jesus with his own resurrection. Well, this one’s as likely to occur as the first. No resurrection in 33AD, no resurretion in 2011CE.
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April 23, 2011 9:08am
MyNameIsJack

Once upon a time there was a poster at kiiblog by the name of Russell “Redbaiter” Fletcher. He was a past master at accusing his opponents of posessing hs own worst traits. He worshipped at the shrine of The Great Teabirthparty and succled at the teat of Sarah “Momma Grizzly” Palin. Then, he vaished.

I don’t know if he still pops in here to read, but here’s one article guaranteed to raise his blood pressure and send him into insane rants that he can only assuage with hours of Faux News.

And so it’s painful when reality intrudes. Here is the reality: the Republicans have spent the past 30 years creating deficits and the Democrats have spent the past 30 years closing them. The unimportance of deficits became an article of faith during the second Bush Administration: “Reagan proved that deficits don’t matter,” Dick Cheney famously said. It has been rather hilarious for those of us with even a minimal grasp of recent history to watch these folks pull fierce 180-degree turns on the issue–and it is even more hilarious to watch them accuse Obama of hyper-partisanship after the dump-truck full of garbage they visited upon his head these past few years.

Read more: http://swampland.time.com/2011/04/14/wounded-elephant-screechings/#ixzz1KHy1m67C
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April 23, 2011 9:13am
Fletch

MNIJ, LOL!! 😀

Surely, you’re joking right? You’re talking about Obama and the Dems who have placed the US into $13 trillion dollar debt.
Even Bush didn’t have a debt that big…

Sometimes you make me laugh..
When the Republicans talk about slashing debt, the Dems won’t have any of it.
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April 23, 2011 9:16am
Manolo

MNIJ, are you one of those who prostrate themselves at the altar of the Messiah, who will ne known to history as one the worst presidents of the United States?

What a surprise! 🙂
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April 23, 2011 9:20am
TripeWryter

The New Zealand Herald continues to bang a tattered drum about the prime minister and his use of Royal New Zealand Air Force Iroqouis helicopters to ferry him about.

The Herald editorial writers can’t have been for a ride in one.

If they had, they might find that an Iroquois trip is a form of punishment.
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April 23, 2011 9:21am
wat dabney

The idea that there is any substantive difference between the Democrats and Republicans is absurd. They are two sides of the same state-worshipping coin. The same with Labour and National in NZ, or Labour and the Conservatives in the UK.
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April 23, 2011 9:31am
Dave Mann

I would welcome an ACT party with Don Brash as its leader. After the disgraceful performance of the party during this term, I had decided to stop giving them my vote and concentrate instead on something more productive like cockroach racing or playing Farmville…. but if they had a leader who was economically accomplished, genuinely sincere, had a good understanding of this country’s financial and social challenges and resonated well with the electorate, then there might be some hope for our country after all.

But maybe this is hoping in vain. With our political luck it will probably fizzle out and we’ll be left with the same bunch of incompetents, conmen, racist separatists and homosexual publicity seekers who are currently running this country into the ground.
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April 23, 2011 9:35am
peterwn

Don Brash could be just the right guy at the right time for ACT and NZ’s politics. He has good credibility and has in depth knowledge and skills of finance and politics. He would almost certainly win Epsom (if he stood for ACT) even in the absence of ‘wink wink’s’ from John Key to the electorate. I would look forward to his return to Parliament. He would make a very significant contribution to John’s government and John Key would no doubt place him to make best use of his talents.
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April 23, 2011 9:47am
starboard

Brash becomes leader = gets my vote. What has Keyclark done for us? Nothin. Failure 101. We still have socialism by stealth under his leadership.
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April 23, 2011 9:49am
Peter

I’d vote for ACT if Brash led it.

I won’t vote for any party Hide leads.
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April 23, 2011 9:59am
Peter

Key has been a disappointment, in much the same way having Labour as government is a disappointment.
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April 23, 2011 10:00am
Inventory2

But doesn’t EVERYONE carry four driver’s licences when they travel overseas?

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2011/04/should-we-sympathise-with-sharon.html
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April 23, 2011 10:05am
niggly

The New Zealand Herald continues to bang a tattered drum about the prime minister and his use of Royal New Zealand Air Force Iroqouis helicopters to ferry him about.

The Herald editorial writers can’t have been for a ride in one.

If they had, they might find that an Iroquois trip is a form of punishment.

Labour, the Greens and the Herald would be getting their knickers in a knot, if they ever cared to remember from the 1950’s to the 1990’s the RNZAF used to have VIP specfic and tailored aircraft (the Andover and before that the Dakota), nevermind a noisy, rattly, drafty old Iroquois.

If the NZ Herald had any sense they would drop this subject because they are on a hiding to nothing, as per the reasons that justify VIP travel as demonstrated here and elsewhere including with the public.

At least Labour and Greens have “shut-up” about it (although of course they would still think they are right – but perhaps they’ve seen or realised this is not a vote winning issue).
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April 23, 2011 10:08am
Clint Heine

Why would National get any better if Brash was leading ACT? Smile and Wave dismissed Sir Roger as too extreme and I don’t see how this would make things easier for Mr 300million to start doing his job properly.

If Hide was to leave Parliament it would be a huge loss. He is worth more than a dozen Nat MPs on a bad day.
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April 23, 2011 10:17am
big bruv

Watch the left go into full attack mode about the possibility of Brash rolling Hide, a Brash led ACT party is their worst nightmare.

Labour and the Greens know that the only chance they have (a slim one at that) is if ACT do not make it back into the house and Winston Peters managed to get over 5%.

The idea of a Brash led ACT party spells certain defeat for the left.

However…the real stumbling block will be the removal of Winston Hide, he (Hide) will not go quietly, he would rather the party is obliterated than give up the leadership.
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April 23, 2011 10:20am
MT_Tinman

I admit Hide’s continued “leadership” is making me rethink where my vote will go (with one exception I’ve voted ACT since it’s inception) but for him to be replaced by Brash would be, to quote a late ’70s minor party leader, a bloody great step backwards.
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April 23, 2011 10:25am
big bruv

More bullshit from Kim Workman

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4920925/Justice-system-biased-against-Maori-thinktank

There is a simple reason why the justice system deals with such a high number of Maori……they are committing the bloody crimes in the first place.
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April 23, 2011 10:27am
big bruv

Clint

“If Hide was to leave Parliament it would be a huge loss. He is worth more than a dozen Nat MPs on a bad day”

To make a comment like that about Hide I have to assume that you have just returned from a very heavy session down at your local London pub.

Hide has been silenced by the baubles of office, nearly everything he has touched in the last three years has been a monumental balls up.

The man has no credibility and is killing a once proud party, like one or two others I refuse to vote for ACT while Winston Hide remains the leader.
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April 23, 2011 10:31am
Murray

Perhaps I should over Rodney a ride to the airport after the election. Afterall I gave him the same ride when he was first elected and it would be fitting to give him the last one as well.

I recall he kept chuckling about the tax payer shelling out for that ride and the benefits of being elected to high office. When he came out as a “perk buster” I confess I was a little bemused.
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April 23, 2011 10:42am
Courage Wolf

Clint Heine (1,152) Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 10:17 am

Why would National get any better if Brash was leading ACT? Smile and Wave dismissed Sir Roger as too extreme and I don’t see how this would make things easier for Mr 300million to start doing his job properly.

If Hide was to leave Parliament it would be a huge loss. He is worth more than a dozen Nat MPs on a bad day.

Nice try at the apologetics there Clint but get real. Ever since Rodney became leader and did the whole Dancing with the Stars thing ACT has lingered at around 1%, and truth be told, has simply lost its balls. This news about Don Brash is ACT’s lifeline and you’d be an idiot and blind loyalist not to take it.
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April 23, 2011 10:57am
Courage Wolf

And to answer your question Clint – because if Brash was leading ACT I daresay ACT’s vote will go up to at least 10%.
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April 23, 2011 11:03am
Hagues

I would love it if Brash became leader of Act, it is the only glimmer of hope NZ has at the moment. I still think Rodney Hide has a lot to offer as an MP. Would love to see a compromise where Rodney gets to retain Epsom in return for giving up the leadership and Brash stands in other seat. Brash on board could get a few other big names along to fill out the top of the list instead of going to the electorate with Hillary Calvert in the top 5.
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April 23, 2011 11:04am
dime

be still my beating heart!

ACT! will get my vote again if Brash becomes the leader.

Thats not to say Rodney should just be cast aside. I think hes a good MP. Just hasnt quite cut it as the leader.

As for the Douglas/Brash comparison – Roger came with insurmountable baggage. The Don doesnt have that. Theres no reason the Don couldn’t become finance minister. That would be glorious.

Dime is a staunch believer in rich old men politicians 🙂
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April 23, 2011 11:26am
Fisiani

In order for ACT to get into parliament and be a part of the government they need to win 5% of the vote or win an electorate seat.
Every ACT member knows this.
They know that the current ACT Party will not poll 5%.
They know that Rodney Hide will no longer be tolerated by the voters of Epsom.
Without change there would be no ACT members in Parliament in November.
Furthermore all the votes cast for ACT would be wasted, losing the Right a significant 2-4%.
This could result in the nightmare scenario when a bunch of losers coalesce. Labour, Greens, Winston First and the Maori Mother………….s form Government.
Do ACT members really want to risk having Phil Goff as Prime Minister, Cunliffe as Finance Minister, Metiria Turei as Environment Minister. Harawira rewriting the Coastal and Marine Bill. Winston as Foreign Minister. Grant Robertson and Charles Chauvel in charge of extending human rights legislation to ban any speech deemed by them to be hate.
To avoid this scenario would they contemplate decisive change by offering the leadership to Don Brash for 3 years. Would they be radical enough to contemplate selecting John Banks as their candidate in Epsom. Both men would have to relinquish membership of National.
Would such a move win ACT the Epsom seat. Probably. Would it get ACT over 5% . Probably. National would peel off its discontented right to ACT and then be perceived as a truly Centre-right Party. Soft Labour support could move to centrist National.
On current polling this could result in the Centre-Right holding 59% of the votes.
ACT would of course have to be renamed. Association of Consumers and Taxpayers has never won any hearts.
The Growth party, The Reform party, The Liberal party, The Right party, The Freedom party would all be better options.
ACT will never lead a government. ACT will never be a part of a Labour led government. ACT can only be a part of a National government. It is the constitutional duty of each ACT member to work in the interest of the party.
Will there be a bloodless coup? Will an electable party be reformed? Will funds flow to ACT?
Or will ACT continue to flounder for 6 months and then be just a footnote in the history books?
The ACT barbeques will be burning on Easter Sunday and Monday.
Do they want to be winners or wimps?
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April 23, 2011 11:29am
Manolo

Why would National get any better if Brash was leading ACT?

Simply because ACT would get a higher number of votes and consequently more elected MPs.

Clint, as much as you like Hide, you would have to admit his leadership has been atrocious and very damaging to the party. Time for him to vacate the position and concentrate on winning Epsom and being an effective MP.
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April 23, 2011 11:31am
Peter

ACT would get the disaffected National vote with Brash in the top job. Key would have to listen to them.

But are ACT awake enough to see it?
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April 23, 2011 11:34am
Richard Hurst

Brash as leader? The final kiss of death. On the other hand it isn’t possible to do any worse than Rodney has.
It would take a fundamental change in Kiwi’s attitudes towards work and welfare and in our whole approach to life for even 10% of the vote to go to ACT. Neither Brash nor Hide can deliver that. Changing the deck chairs won’t stop ACT from sinking.
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April 23, 2011 11:34am
kaya

Fletch –

You’re talking about Obama and the Dems who have placed the US into $13 trillion dollar debt.
Even Bush didn’t have a debt that big…

I’m no Obama fan, like Wat Dabney I know it is irrelevant who is supposedly running the country. Bush, Obama, Clinton, nothing but figure heads, but your statment is inaccurate.

When Bush took office, the national debt was $5.73 trillion. When he left, it was $10.7 trillion. That’s a difference of $4.97 trillion, almost $1 trillion more than what Emanuel said.

But the debt has shot up significantly during the past few months, mostly due to the economic meltdown of 2008 and the government’s efforts to shore up the federal banking system.

Obama inherited a pile of shit (in much the same way as John Key did) from the previous fuckwits. I doubt their is much he can do about it, the real powers that be will ensure that the financial elite in the USA stay there. How else can you explain the stupidity in bailing out Wall Street?

I repeat, I am not an Obama fan, I think he is as much a waste of space as Bush was.
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April 23, 2011 11:43am
shady

ACT would have my vote back.

I went directly from Labour to ACT – thanks to my absolute dislike of Helen and Cullen and total disrespect for Bill English (which also hasn’t changed). However, didn’t/don’t like Rodney Hide – I’ve been to hear him speak, and it all just seems like a game to him. Still grudgingly gave ACT my party vote last election, but that would have been the last time. I do like National and John Key (albeit moving too slowly – the disasters haven’t helped), but getting Rodney out and Brash in the top role would get that party tick back. Happy for Rodney to stay in there, he’s an excellent polititian, but he is not a leader, IMO, that engenders respect. Heather Roy didn’t do it for me either.

Don Brash as leader of ACT would give it the boost it needs.
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April 23, 2011 11:47am
big bruv

Ok..so how does Brash go about improving the party vote for ACT?

Firstly he needs to hammer the “one rule for all” message, Brash has credibility with the people of NZ on this one, it was Brash who breathed new life back into the Nat’s when they were almost dead and buried and he did it on the back of being delightfully un PC and by not being afraid to speak the truth about race relations in NZ.

Secondly (and for the life of me I cannot see why the left do not do this) Brash needs to attack the Nat’s where they are weak, he should NOT go after John Key, that would be madness, he should aim his guns directly at Bill English, I do not care what party you follow only a moron (or Adolf) would still be a mindless cheerleader for English.

A Brash led ACT election campaign that focused entirely on “one rule for all” and Bill English’s disastrous handling of the economy would see them with (IMHO) between 7-10% of the vote.
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April 23, 2011 11:52am
tristanb

More bullshit from Kim Workman

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4920925/Justice-system-biased-against-Maori-thinktank

“When Maori are imprisoned at a rate seven and a half times that of non-Maori, seven times more likely to be arrested for breach of probation, and eleven times more likely to be refused bail than non-Maori, that should be telling us that something is wrong with the way the criminal justice system is administered.”

Well. She’s sort of right. Every time they commit a crime they’re told it’s not their fault by judges and social workers. They are not punished. So, quite understandably, they do the same thing again. Something is wrong with the system.

There are also large benefits to lying to police. And culturally lying does not seem to be such an issue. Every time I watch see Police 10/7 or another NZ show, the criminals lie! It just comes so naturally to them – and when they’re found out they aren’t punished for the lie – so of course they’ll lie again next time.

If my child/bestmate robbed/raped someone, I would not protect them. I would expect them to face consequences, otherwise it’s just a matter of time until the offence is repeated. But in certain criminal cultures it seem okay to stonewall when babies are murdered, or when family members are making drugs.

The solution: treat all offenders the same – stop letting crims off easily because of their race. The main victim of Maori offenders are Maori – if people like Kim Workman actually cared about Maori they’d get their crims locked up for longer to keep Maori families safer, instead of getting them off scot-free where they can return to their life as an abuser.
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April 23, 2011 11:56am
reid

Brash as leader? The final kiss of death.

You’re quite wrong Richard, for potential ACT voters don’t believe a word of the propaganda bullshit the MSM has whipped up about Brash over the years. They see straight through it and completely ignore it.

Given that, for potential ACT voters, the only question about Brash is, is he young enough.

IMO the answer is no. He’s a good fill-in while ACT finds a younger leader. However if he can appeal to the potential ACT voters who fled to National that Rodney has never recaptured which he probably can, he’ll be good value.

This comment from a Whale thread makes some good points.
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April 23, 2011 12:00pm
Nookin

A Brash led Act would have clear and principled economic policy. It would force National to look at a long term plan and not just sit back and watch Labour hand over the election by default and put out the odd fire here and there or administer sticking plaster in isolated areas.

Act needs to make a decision in the next two weeks and Brash then needs to sit down with Key and come to some arrangement about policy. Key cannot do to Brash what he did to Douglas. He is going to have to face the fact that if Act poll well, and that is likely under Brash, then he will have to accommodate Brash in cabinet and in an area involving economic policy. Rather than bicker over idealogical differences, they have to find common ground and make a clear statement of what they stand for and how they will achieve it. They will need a long term plan with short term, measurable targets. Brash will do what Labour cannot – make the government say what its policies and plans are.
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April 23, 2011 12:02pm
tankyman

Any news on the Darren Hughes investigation.

Cleared yet? Still ongoing? Going to court just before the election?
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April 23, 2011 12:08pm
reid

Some Easter Saturday reading: Not a bad little article on the Secret Service.

Clinton’s brush with death was closer still, and his life may have been saved by a gut decision made by his detail leader. The incident was disclosed only recently by the historian Ken Gormley in his book The Death of American Virtue: Clinton vs. Starr. The context was Independent Counsel Ken Starr’s effort to force members of the Presidential Protective Detail to disclose particulars of Clinton’s movements and any conversation they might have heard that was germane to his case. Then–Secret Service Director Lewis C. Merletti argued to Starr that a president needed to have complete trust in his protective detail, offering the following example: in 1996, President Clinton was in Manila for an Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit, and had on his agenda a visit with a local official. He was running late, in a surly mood, and eager to get going. According to Gormley, just moments before the motorcade was about to move, agents using a special intelligence-gathering capacity—one that remains classified—picked up radio chatter mentioning the words wedding and bridge. Knowing well that wedding was often a code word for a terrorist hit, Merletti changed the route, which happened to include a bridge. Clinton was angry at the decision, which would cause further delay, but he did not override it. When agents arrived at the bridge, they indeed found explosives: had Clinton taken the prescribed route, he very likely would have been killed. (Within the past decade, the service has added an electronic-countermeasures vehicle— theoretically capable of jamming remotely controlled explosives—to the presidential protection package.)
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April 23, 2011 12:16pm
reid

And here’s an article about national command discussions on the day Reagan was shot. Recall how Haig publicly made himself Pres then had to resign. These are exerpts of openly taped conversations between him, Weinberger, Regan and others discussing the situation, in the WH Situation Room. The article is written by Richard Allen, Reagan’s NSA.
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April 23, 2011 12:38pm
starboard

“A New Zealand woman arrested in Argentina last week after trying to board a plane with a suitcase containing 5kg of cocaine is refusing to comment on reports she was carrying four driver’s licences.
Sharon Armstrong, a former Maori Language Commission deputy chief executive, was arrested on April 13 after Buenos Aires Airport police allegedly found the cocaine hidden in her suitcase.”

5kg of coke , 4 different driving licences , something smells big time here.
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April 23, 2011 12:49pm
reid

5kg of coke , 4 different driving licences , something smells big time here.

It sure does starboard.
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April 23, 2011 1:03pm
publicwatchdog

Continuing the ‘debate’ with eminent jurist ‘Nookin’…………

“Nookin (643) Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 8:30 am

Penny
Even if you had even the most basic understanding of our legal system you would know that our courts have had inherent jurisdiction to deal with many issues for hundreds of years and that they do so by exercising judicial discretion. It was the court system that developed the law of equity to fill in those strictures of the common law that may result in injustice. For the most part, many of the discretions exercised by the courts are based on sound, clear and fair equitable principles designed to do justice between parties. The courts also have discretions conferred by statute.

When Vince was banned from defending the defamation case the court was excercising jurisdiction conferred by the rules.

Vince repeatedly refused to comply with court orders but still expected to participate in a process for which he had no respect and which he continued to defy. That is not a situation that many people find acceptable because it basically means that the rule of law falls down. It means that some people can chose what decisions bind them and what decisions do not. Is that what you mean by the rule of law? And are you and Vince the only people entitled to decide what decisions will prevail and what ones will not? In this case I totally support the court decisions and the subsequent decisions relating to the proceedings brought by the solicitor-general. So do the appellate judges. You, Penny are the one undermining the rule of law.

Everynow and then the court does come across an unusual situation and its decision becomes a precedent for the manner in which silmilar facts should be dealt in future. In these circumstance, some people might suggest that the courts are making it up on the hoof. You will find, however, that these decisions are thoroughly reasoned and principled. One such case was the decision to set aside the committal warrant against Finau. The court said it could not find a similar case. You boasted that it was groundbreaking – first of its kind. We have been down this track before. I asked you why it was ok for the court to make novel decisions if they favoured you but not otherwise. I have repeatedly pointed out your hypocrasy. You still cannot respond.

………………………………”

MY RESPONSE TO NOOKIN: (This clear enough for you Sofia? 😉

Nookin – your lack of understanding of our basic human rights to justice and the ‘rule of law’ are truly profoundly disturbing.

So much so – that if you are in fact a lawyer (heaven help us) – I would recommend your immediate nomination to serve on the bench, as a member of the NZ judiciary.

With your knowledge and understanding of both ‘the principles of natural justice’ and ‘the rule of law’, you would indeed, in my considered opinion, sit very comfortably on the bench with so many of those NZ Judges who have ‘adjudicated’ in matters concerning Vince Siemer.

(err…………… in case you haven’t ‘got it’ Nookin – that actually ISN’T a compliment? 😉

Moving on………

In my considered opinion, if you don’t know your rights – you don’t have any.

If you don’t defend the rights you are SUPPOSED to have – you lose them.

In order to assist with an INFORMED debate – following are the human rights to which we are are SUPPOSED to be entitled.

In 1990 – some 42 years after the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948)

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml

– NZ finally got our arguably weak and crippled, stunted version of that ‘parent’ document- the NZ Bill of Rights Act 1990

http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1990/0109/latest/DLM224792.html?search=ts_act_Bill+of+rights+Act+1990_resel&p=1&sr=1

Ever read this Nookin?

(No – thought not.)

Universal Declaration of Human Rights – Preamble

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Article 1 (Universal Declaration of Human Rights)

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 7 (Universal Declaration of Human Rights)

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8 (Universal Declaration of Human Rights)

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

____________________________

New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 Section 27 [Remedies]

(1) Every person has the right to the observance of the principles of natural justice by any tribunal or other public authority which has the power to make a determination in respect of that person’s right, obligations, or interests protected or recognised by law.

(2) Every person whose rights, obligations, or interests protected or recognised bylaw have been affected by a determination of any tribunal or other public authority has the right to apply, in accordance with law, for judicial review of that determination.

(3) Every person has the right to bring civil proceedings against, and to defend civil proceedings brought by, the Crown, and to have those proceedings heard, according to law, in the same way as civil proceedings between individuals.

Article 10 (Universal Declaration of Human Rights)

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11 (Universal Declaration of Human Rights)

1. Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

2. No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 Section 24 [Criminal Justice]

Everyone who is charged with an offence

(a) Shall be informed promptly and in detail of the nature and cause of the charge; and

(b) Shall be released on reasonable terms and conditions unless there is just cause for continued detention; and

(c) Shall have the right to consult and instruct a lawyer; and

(d) Shall have the right to adequate time and facilities to prepare a defence; and

(e) Shall have the right, except in the case of an offence under military law tried before a military tribunal, to the benefit of a trial by jury when the penalty for the offence is or or includes imprisonment for more than 3 months; and

(f) Shall have the right to receive legal assistance without cost if the interests of justice so require and the person does not have sufficient means to provide for that assistance; and

(g) Shall have the right to have the free assistance of an interpreter if the person cannot understand or speak the language used in court.

New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 Section 25 [Fair Trial]

Everyone who is charged with an offence has, in relation to the determination of the charge, the following minimum rights:

(a) The right to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial court:

(b) The right to be tried without undue delay:

(c) The right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law:

(d) The right not to be compelled to be a witness or to confess guilt:

(e) The right to be present at the trial and to present a defence:

(f) The right to examine the witnesses for the prosecution and to obtain the attendance and examination of witnesses for the defence under the same conditions as the prosecution:

(g) The right, if convicted of an offence in respect of which the penalty has been varied between the commission of the offence and sentencing, to the benefit of the lesser penalty:

(h) The right, if convicted of the offence, to appeal according to the law to a higher court against the conviction or against the sentence or against both:

(i) The right, in the case of a child, to be dealt with in a manner that takes account of the child’s age.New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 Section

26 [Nulla Poena Sine Lege, Double Jeopardy]

(1) No one shall be liable to conviction of any offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute an offence by such person under the law of New Zealand at the time it occured.

(2) No one who has been finally acquitted or convicted of, or pardoned for, an offence shall be tried or punished for it again.

_______________________________________________________________________

I ask AGAIN ‘Nookin’ what LAW did Vince Siemer ever break?

Do YOU support our basic human rights to justice, and the ‘Rule of Law’?

What is YOUR understanding of the ‘the principles of natural justice’ Nookin?

(I anticipate this not being a very long post……………… 🙂

Kind regards,

Penny Bright

http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
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April 23, 2011 1:04pm
Paulus

Starboard

Shapelle Corby was innocent too !
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April 23, 2011 1:07pm
RightNow

Nuts
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April 23, 2011 1:11pm
Pete George

5kg of coke , 4 different driving licences , something smells big time here.

There’s more that doesn’t make sense. She said she diverted to Argentina to collect some papers for her net “friend” but stayed a week there, and the only suitcase she was caught with had women’s clothes and the coke. Where were the papers? Did she think that is what was concealed?

She also told the Dominion:
“I’m just scared that if I say too much about either what it’s like or, you know, the people I got involved in … you know, there’s no-one here to really look after me.

“I’m just a bit scared that if I say too much that things will get worse for me. I think the scariest thing for me is I’m out of my depth, I don’t know this world.”

I know it’s only fragments of information but very weird.
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April 23, 2011 1:19pm
Peter

DFT(loopy)T
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April 23, 2011 1:20pm
Inventory2

Sorry Penny; you lost me at “Continuing…”…
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April 23, 2011 1:21pm
dime

what sorta sentence is she facing? will they off her for that much coke? or is it just a fine?
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April 23, 2011 1:21pm
Inventory2

@ Pete – the Dom-Post also reveals that the false-bottomed suitcase Ms Armstrong was caught with was manufactured by an Argentinian firm. It’s probably safe to presume that it is not the suitcase that she took with her from New Zealand, which begs the question as to why one would transfer one’s property into a suitcase provided by someone you’d never met. I have the feeling that it’s going to be some years before Sharon Armstrong speaks Te Reo Maori again.
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April 23, 2011 1:29pm
publicwatchdog

Fisiani (408) Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 11:29 am

In order for ACT to get into parliament and be a part of the government they need to win 5% of the vote or win an electorate seat.”

How do you think that those who live in the high-valued properties in the Epsom electorate are going to feel about their Auckland Council rates going up 4.9%, when:

a) They never got a vote on whether they wanted the Auckland ‘supercity’ in the first place.

b) They were led to believe that the ‘economies of scale’ which would be delivered by this forced amalgamation would reduce costs to ratepayers?

I mean this did happen on the watch of ‘Mr Popular’, masterfully-packaged corporate raider National Prime Minister (shonky) John Key – didn’t it?

Just a thought?

😉

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

(Want more background info on this issue? 🙂
http://www.stopthesupercity.org.nz
http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz
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April 23, 2011 1:31pm
Inventory2

@ Penny; they are going to chastise themselves that they didn’t do more to support John Banks, and that they allowed Red Len Brown to be elected.

When are you going to blog about Brown’s lies? You know; his promises to be open and transparent, then his hypocrisy in holding the Maori Advisory Group debate behind closed doors. As an attendee of Transparency International conferences, I would have thought you’d be ropeable about Brown’s lies and hypocrisy.
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April 23, 2011 1:40pm
niggly

Any news on the Darren Hughes investigation.

Cleared yet? Still ongoing? Going to court just before the election?

Darren Hughes & Labour should be just fine … as long as Darren doesn’t do a Taito-Field, or Tamihere or even an O’Connor and criticise the “Labour Party” ….

Will be interesting to see if both sides can keep holding it together as the pressure of the election builds …. 🙂
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April 23, 2011 1:41pm
publicwatchdog

# Inventory2 (6,121) Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 1:21 pm

Sorry Penny; you lost me at “Continuing…”…

Yes ‘Inventory2’ – an indication of your intellectual capacity (or lack thereof?)

I understand.

It must be VERY difficult to cope with getting your butt kicked by an ex-boilermaker of the female variety 😉

You carry on with your LOVELY ‘ignorance is bliss’ sort of day 🙂

Kind regards

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
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April 23, 2011 1:43pm
TripeWryter

Perhaps The Dominion Post — or whichever media body talks to her again — could ask Sharon Armstrong if she didn’t think it odd that she was diverted to Argentina to pick up documents for this man for his job. Didn’t this experience bureaucrat not think: why doesn’t he courier them over to London from Buenos Aires?

Look, I mean no ill towards Ms Armstrong. I hope that she is as naive as she is now being portrayed and that a court in Argentina will look kindly on her.

But I am becoming increasingly fed up with the ‘line’ that we are being given: that she is a ‘silly, silly old lady’ who was just following her heart and wanted everyone to be happy for her, and that she diverted to BA to do her new man a favour. It is very plausible that she might not have known what she had got into.

But an experienced bureaucrat, and one who’d been a probation officer, might have thought it odd that she was being given a suitcase. Eleven pounds of cocaine? That’s a lot of paperwork needed for a new job, what?
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April 23, 2011 1:47pm
Longknives

Starboard and Trypewriter you are on the ball there! For a while there I was wondering if I was the only person in New Zealand who wasn’t swallowing this “innocent, gullible old lady line”….A week in Argentina? Four Passports? Strange and unexplained changing of luggage? If it looks and smells like a drug runner…..
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April 23, 2011 1:57pm
Longknives

I’d like an enterprising journalist to balance this “she is a lovely, gullible woman” angle with perhaps an investigative look into her character and past…perhaps see if this is the first random overseas trip she has made to pick up ‘business packages’ for internet “friends”??
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April 23, 2011 2:01pm
Nookin

Penny
You have added nothing to the debate apart for cut and paste, obfuscation, sarcasm and a singular lack of understanding of our legal system. The law that Vince broke is quite simple. When the Court issues a mandatory injunction, i.e. take down the web-site, you do it. If you want to appeal then you appeal. If you are ordered to pay costs then you pay them. You don’t say Ï know better, I am above the law and I am not bound by the law unless I so chose” . That stance does not reflect the rule of law.

In answer to your questions; I have a better understanding and appreciation of natural justice and the rule of law than you will ever have. Cut and paste is not “ünderstanding” . I can cut and paste countless cases revolving around these issues but that is not the point. You need to understand what they mean, how they are applied, when they are applied why they are applied and to what effect. You need to think outside your little square of prejudice.

Why don’t you toddle back to your little cave and hunt for an original thought somewhere. I won’t hold my breath. Maybe we’ll see you this time next year.

Peter. Sorry.
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April 23, 2011 2:01pm
jaba

the potential linkup of Banks and Brash(mmm, Banks is brash and Brash was a banker) is interesting BUT I prefer the potential link up of John Hatfield and Annette Sykes .. yehaaaaaaaa, please tell me it will happen
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April 23, 2011 2:01pm
tristanb

Re: Sharon Armstrong.

I wonder how much drug carrying she was doing in her “years of experience working for the Corrections Department”.

And I wonder how many trips to South American and SE Asia the Maori Language Commission has paid for “to promote Te Reo”. Also, I wonder why she left such a cruisy safe scam as Te Taurawhiri, which would have been easy money!

Of course, as a descendent of some of the 1840s British, I apologise in advance for causing the poverty and displacement that resulted in her heading down this path.
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April 23, 2011 2:10pm
Nookin

Hi, Iv2. I see you got your btut kicked again!

Tell me, did principled Penny ever apologise for calling you intellectually lazy and all that shit when she was wrong, proved wrong and still won’t realise it? Or are principles things that only apply to other people, like the law, and common sense and logic and, indeed, the process of original thought?

I would love to see the code of conduct that applies to self-appointed watchdogs. I imagine it goes something like this:
I am above the law. If I do not like it, I will not obey it.
If I am wrong, I do not need to apologise. An apology is what other people do.
The Courts are wonderful institutions but only if they agree with me and my mates. Otherwise they are corrupt.
There is only one side to any story – mine.
If I cannot argue a point I will cut and paste screeds of material and bore everyone to death.
My favourite tactics are prevarication, obfuscation and sarcasm. All delivered in a kind, caring and sensitive way, of course
The world is about to be taken over by big business. Big business is now murdering people like West Coast coal miners. I am the only person in the world who can stop it.
Look at me! Look at me!!
PS if you like what I am doing my bank account is on my web site. Just dont expect me to tell you what I intend doing with the money or account to you afterwards.”

Penny would have done well in the last Labour Government.
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April 23, 2011 2:26pm
Manolo

Penny would have done well in the last Labour Government.

Sure. She religiously collected the dole, welfare payouts and special grants for no particular reason other than being a self-appointed “watchdog”, a euphemism for bludger.
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April 23, 2011 2:32pm
Inventory2

No Nookin; no apology yet, nor am I holding my breath. That’s cool; Winston Peters never apologised for anything either and nor did Vince Siemer. They appear to be Penny’s role models. In the meantime, people will make their own judgments as to who’s credible and who isn’t.
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April 23, 2011 2:44pm
Viking2

Yes ‘Inventory2′ – an indication of your intellectual capacity (or lack thereof?)

Now Penny that’s not nice IV2 is a brainy sod. A bit to the right of left for you but still even though he looks old and wrinkly he still has it.

It must be VERY difficult to cope with getting your butt kicked by an ex-boilermaker of the female variety.

Assuming that you are talking about yourself lets talk about boilermakers. Rude, uneducated, bullies, unionists and generally became the scum of NZ industrial relations.
Guess the cap fits.
This site isn’t really where you belong.
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April 23, 2011 2:49pm
Manolo

It didn’t take long for the warmists to find the connection between AGW and earthquakes.

A link between intensifying climate events and tectonic plate movement have been shown for the first time, confirming that long-term climate change has the potential to spin the Earth’s tectonic plates.

Lead researcher Giampiero Iaffaldano from the Research School of Earth Sciences at the Australian National University in Canberra said that although scientists have long known that tectonic movements influence climate by creating new mountains and sea trenches, his study was the first to show the reverse.

“The closure or opening of new ocean basins or the build of large mountain bands like the Andes or Tibet itself, those are geological processes that affect the pattern of climate,” said Iaffaldano. “We are showing for the first time that the opposite also is true, that the pattern of climate is then able to affect back in a feedback mechanism the motion of tectonic plates.”

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/4226/monsoons-are-spinning-earth%E2%80%99s-plates
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April 23, 2011 2:53pm
Manolo

The Messiah exercises his fabled leadership.

Soaring petrol prices are hitting Americans where it hurts, and threatening to undermine our fragile recovery. With oil hitting $111 today, and petrol topping $4 a gallon in many markets, economists are beginning to ratchet down their GDP forecasts, boding ill for continued job growth. Meanwhile, and not coincidentally, the nation is souring on elected officials, and on the president, whose approval ratings are sinking like a failed soufflé.

A staggering 70% of the nation thinks we’re headed in the wrong direction. What’s Obama’s solution? Find someone to blame.

To show he’s on top of the energy crisis, the president has…created yet another commission! This one – a task force from the Justice Department – is charged with ferreting out the scoundrels behind the jump in petrol pices – surely there must be some nefarious speculators or market manipulators who can be hauled before Congress in one of those satisfying and cathartic inquiries that, at the end, yield almost nothing.
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April 23, 2011 2:59pm
side show bob

tritsanb, Ihe Maori Language Commission wants $600 million from the government so the Te Reo can be shoved down our throats, seems Te Reo is still dying, so all must do there bit to save the language. My children are Maori and have had every opportunity to learn the Reo, it’s their choice, at present no interest at all. If we as parents believe our children should learn the Reo it should be up to us and not the taxpayers of NZ to promote it. Shoving it down all our throats will only hasten the death of Te Reo, no one likes being force to do something they oppose, it must have an opposite affect. Perhaps Sharon was worried Te Reo was in it’s death throes and was seeking new ways for funding.
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April 23, 2011 3:04pm
David Garrett

My two cents worth on Don Brash and ACT…

Brash would be a great asset to ACT for any number of reasons, not least of which the fact that he appeals to both the “economic literates” who think Roger is the second coming, and the “law and order wing” of the party. Yes, there is one, and was long before I came along. I agree his being strongly identified with “one law for all” would be a major draw. I never understood why ACT didnt go for the doctor on that issue, and risk being labeled as racist (we are anyway). Even more puzzling since Keenan – the writer of the Orewa speeches – is Hide’s chief of staff.

Secondly, why does anyone think Brash would make a better fist of being leader of ACT than he did of National? Being leader of a political party is a job like no other. Being leader of small party which does not insist on all members toeing the party line at all times, and which encourages individualism is a very different thing from leading the National Party, with its rigid cacus discipline, “someone else” to do a lot of the things a leader has to do in a small party (such as assisting in brainstorming questions for Question Time), and vast resources. None of you who have never been a part of a caucus really has any idea what is involved.

Lastly, why would Key suddenly appoint Brash to a senior ministerial position when Hide wasn’t offered one? When Key deposed him, Brash made it clear that if he was offered something significant to do, he would stay on. He wasnt, and he resigned shortly therafter.

Why would it be any different now?
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April 23, 2011 3:05pm
Gooner

This must be a kick in the guts for the so-called Reform Party who hoped to nab Brash and/or Banks for their party. They’ve been awfully silent haven’t they, since they “launched” onto the scene. I wonder how it’s going – raising money, finding candidates, setting up electorate committees etc. Anyone like to give an update? Or can we take your deathly silence as unequivocal failure?
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April 23, 2011 3:06pm
publicwatchdog

Fisiani (408) Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 11:29 am

In order for ACT to get into parliament and be a part of the government they need to win 5% of the vote or win an electorate seat.
Every ACT member knows this.
They know that the current ACT Party will not poll 5%.
They know that Rodney Hide will no longer be tolerated by the voters of Epsom.
Without change there would be no ACT members in Parliament in November.
Furthermore all the votes cast for ACT would be wasted, losing the Right a significant 2-4%.

To avoid this scenario would they contemplate decisive change by offering the leadership to Don Brash for 3 years. Would they be radical enough to contemplate selecting John Banks as their candidate in Epsom. Both men would have to relinquish membership of National…”

Interesting and considered post ‘Fisiani’.

But wouldn’t Brash and Banks dropping their National membership then joining ACT ( in a political version of the ‘revolving door’ scenario) – just prove what the voting public have found in practice anyway?

That essentially there is no real difference in the policies of National and ACT?

Take the Auckland ‘$upercity’ for example.

Rodney Hide was set up as the ‘flak catcher’ – but there is NO WAY the $upercity legislation would have been passed without 100% support from National MPs.

How popular is ACT electorally?

You just need to look at ACT’s result in the Botany by-election.

🙂

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
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April 23, 2011 3:08pm
Viking2

Bit like yours was it Penny??
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April 23, 2011 3:10pm
Gooner

I’ll add a further question David: Can anyone tell me how the “thank-you-and-farewell” dinner for Don Brash went after his years of loyalty to National?

I’ve heard the Nats did nothing for him. Surely not? If it’s true (that they did nothing for him), isn’t that a sign that the Nats don’t give a rats arse about Don Brash. As David points out, why would they now?
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April 23, 2011 3:11pm
publicwatchdog

# Manolo (3,905) Says:
April 23rd, 2011 at 2:32 pm

Penny would have done well in the last Labour Government.

Sure. She religiously collected the dole, welfare payouts and special grants for no particular reason other than being a self-appointed “watchdog”, a euphemism for bludger.”

Now come on Manolo – you know that is simply not true – or are you just not up with the play?

If you can’t provide EVIDENCE that I collected the dole (which you won’t be able to do – because I am self-funded and collect no benefit) then I suggest you just drop that one?

The only one who you are discrediting is yourself.

Even ‘immigant’ has finally ‘got it’ on that point.

😉

Penny Bright
http://waterpressure.wordpress.com
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April 23, 2011 3:14pm
Viking2

Banks in ACT. That’s this years joke isn’t it. Display for us all what his principles around politics are. Oh Banks, Banks and Banks.
Not an ACT person at all.
As David Garret has said, Key wouldn’t give Brash a top job before so why would he now.
In fact I personally think Key is struggling with his job. He has a bunch of half useless Ministers and he tries too hard to deal with everything personally instead of being the Chairman and overseer of stuff.
Also lacks the clear principle of of one rule for all.
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April 23, 2011 3:17pm
David Garrett

Gooner: I believe you are right (about the lack of a farewell dinner) but dont quote me.

Another point everyone seems to have missed. The Nats dont like defectors. Stephen Franks was given a virtually unwinnable list position despite being a very able guy. Tau Henare will never be more than a backbencher, and probably wouldnt be that if he wasnt brown. The tribal Nats are most unlikely to welcome with open arms a former leader who has “gone over” to another party.
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April 23, 2011 3:19pm
Nookin

“Why would it be any different now?”

Because if you keep doing what have always been doing you will always have what you have now. That’s why. And what we have is not working. A middle of the road balancing act between left and right is simply treading water. This country has a culture of dependancy that must change. We have career beneficiaries. If something goes wrong then it is up to someone else to fix it — usually the government. Isn’t it time that we had a culture of productivity and added value?

NZ is very much like the town where Asterix and Obelix lived. The villagers spent all their time squabbling among themselves until some third party came along. Then they would unite and squabble with the third party. Where is the vision? I think Brash has vision. I am not sure if we are in a position to adopt his methods overnight but he and Key need to talk about phasing them in. Labour failed and do not deserve another chance. Key is the right man for the job of PM but he has been sorely impeded by events totally beyond his control. Despite that, I think he is treading water. Kick it in the guts Trev as one other NZ’z more astute philosophers would say.
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April 23, 2011 3:20pm
Manolo

Brash should be welcomed by ACT. Banks, no thanks.
The former Auckland mayor is no liberal and should stay where he belongs: the cowardly National Party.
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April 23, 2011 3:23pm
Viking2

National have no longterm plan to make Kiwi’s wealthy.
ACT has had just such a plan for a longtime now.
Nationals only objective is to be the power, not to disseminate the power to people.
That’s why you should all party vote ACT.
To become wealthy.
That is of course unless you want to remain poor like you are in which case you can choose Labour or the Nats.
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April 23, 2011 3:24pm
immigant

Don Brash for Act! Not an Act voter but I liked some of the unapologetic truths he fired off when he was on that economic task force to research how NZ can catch up to AUS. Can’t quote him off the top of my head but he had some brutal truths that he brought to the public’s attention that made me like him a lot more.

Also.
I just heard that there is a company being formed that will oversee and manage the laying of another telco cable between NZ and the rest of the world. Has anyone heard about this and can they give me a link.

[DPF: Pacific Fibre http://pacificfibre.net/%5D
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April 23, 2011 3:28pm
Hagues

What would be different this time around is that Brash could well hold the votes National need to pass legislation and therefore Key will have no choice in giving more senior positions to Brash and/or others in Act. If Act take 7-8% of National’s current support on election day that would be a huge mandate for Act to be given some decent input into the government.

[DPF: If ACT got 7% they would certainly get more say on legislation. That does not mean Brash would be a Minister]
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April 23, 2011 3:37pm
Courage Wolf

Lastly, why would Key suddenly appoint Brash to a senior ministerial position when Hide wasn’t offered one? When Key deposed him, Brash made it clear that if he was offered something significant to do, he would stay on. He wasnt, and he resigned shortly therafter.

Why would it be any different now?

Because if it were to come to pass, ACT would get a significant poll result and there would be a mandate to demand it.

[DPF: Demand it – you mean threaten to make Phil Goff PM, unless John Key puts Don into Cabinet. I can’t see that demand having much credibility]
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April 23, 2011 3:41pm
Nookin

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4921260/Police-make-arrest-on-protest-ship

Oh dear. The police have taken the initiative to stop people getting killed. Now the shit will hit the fan.
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April 23, 2011 3:55pm
Hagues

Agree that there is no guarantee Brash would be a Minister, but if 7-8% went from supporting national to supporting Act due to Brash’s presence there, Key would be an absolute fool to ignore the people. Besides, having some sensible economic policies that would come from having Brash instead of English as Min of Finance would do wonders for National as it would make their government look much better.
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April 23, 2011 3:56pm
Rodders

The Harawira MoFo party is to be launched next Saturday in Pt Chev.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10721145

toad, don’t forget to put that date in your diary.
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April 23, 2011 3:57pm
Nookin

“Because if it were to come to pass, ACT would get a significant poll result and there would be a mandate to demand it.

[DPF: Demand it – you mean threaten to make Phil Goff PM, unless John Key puts Don into Cabinet. I can’t see that demand having much credibility]”

This exchange is all about leverage. Leverage is all about power. Fuck power. We had nine years where power was the goal and the means of achieving it. We need policy, production and added value and someone who has the vision to say so and show the way to go. I think Key would like to but is hamstrung. He needs to break the mold. Brash can help him. They need to talk.
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April 23, 2011 4:00pm
dime

Say don becomes the act leader and they get 7% of the vote. Key wont give brash a senior role and brash says – we aren’t keen on being nationals bitch. we will sit this one out, labour can run the country. lets chat again in 3 years.

id almost stomach another labour term if it meant the national party had to move further to the right.
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April 23, 2011 4:07pm
jaba

thanks Rodders .. The Harawira Party, “Mofo” would be great, was mentioned days ago when he said he would love the have anarchist Sykes on-board.
That would be fantastic .. if he could get Mutu, Mike Smith and my old mate Kenneth Mair to also commit to his cause then the election will be full of fun.
They could finally stand up and announce to the New Zealand public what they REALLY want .. that would be fantastic
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April 23, 2011 4:10pm
Owen McShane

But Key made Roden Hide Minister of Local Government and of Regulatory Reform.

Surely putting in place the Auckland Council was the task of a Senior Minister?
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April 23, 2011 4:13pm
nasska

I don’t doubt that Don Brash & even Banks have something left to offer ACT. What concerns me is that we are traveling down the road of giving everything another run around the block including politicians. While I consider that it environmentally sound to recycle milk containers & cardboard surely to shit, in a country of 4 million people, we can do better than dust off yesterdays men & relabel them.
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April 23, 2011 4:16pm
Viking2

Nope, the Labour Party are leading the charge.
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April 23, 2011 5:06pm
Rex Widerstrom

nassaka asks:

surely to shit, in a country of 4 million people, we can do better than dust off yesterdays men & relabel them.

You haven’t been paying attention, have you? 😛 I’ve mentioned many times that we need to realise that politics isn’t about left v right any more (at least most people have realised you can’t slide a single sheet of manifesto between Labour and National) but about elites v the rest of us. And the elites will always look to their small, isolated pool rather than outside – even when, as is obvious with Labour, the results make the term “incestuous” look… well… literal.

Sure there is the appearance of new faces but actually listen to, say, a Nikki Kaye or a Jacinda Adern and you can hear the ocean. It’s all vacuuous parroting of the party line with never a deviation or a criticism.

MMP was always designed to cement that trend, with list MPs beholden only to party power brokers. The fact that Act seems to have a great deal of internal discontent between (I assume) its founding classical liberals and the late-comer conservatives is portrayed by people used to machine politics (like DPF) as “disloyalty”. I see it as a healthy debate about which policies and principles a right wing party should be espousing. And if it splits into two as a result, then that’s healthy too… it means its supporters are thinking, not brainwashed ninnies who think it better to support every decision and every leader – even the bad ones.
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April 23, 2011 5:23pm
DJP6-25

reid 12:16. Thanks. That was realy interesting.

cheers

David Prosser
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April 23, 2011 5:30pm
reid

Thanks David. Here are some interesting comments about Bahrain, Libya, Iran, Egypt and the US.
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April 23, 2011 5:55pm
Inventory2

The MOFO Hone Party; Maori Or Friends Of Hone
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April 23, 2011 6:05pm
reid

I may be wrong but to me Hone’s problem in his endeavour to build a party from scratch, apart from the fact he wants extremists like Sykes on board, is he doesn’t appear to have any wise old heads, apart from his mum and no doubt some of her mates. Well I can’t speak for his mum’s mates but I have to say Titewhai is anything but wise, based on everything she has said and done everytime I have ever seen or heard her on or in the news over the last several decades. Apart from when she made Hulun cry, she hasn’t ever done anything positive, ever.

He needs someone experienced and reasonable and wise. Sharples could have been that man for awhile. I don’t know if he ever was, but he could have been, if Hone had wanted it. But that’s what he needs and he doesn’t appear to have it.

Secondly I get the feeling he’s a bit indolent. As long as “work” consists mostly of talking, sitting, listening, driving and flying, he’s OK. As soon as it gets into doing, he doesn’t seem so enthusiastic.

Thirdly if you believe what he believes you are by definition a destructor. You are by definition intent on assigning more rights to a group by stripping rights from other groups. Destructors only break things down, they don’t build things up. That’s their focus and that is their passion and driving force. If they have one thought a week about building something instead of destroying it, that’s a bonus, to a destructor. Winston is also a destructor BTW, but the reason he can build a party while at the same time be a destructor is cause he doesn’t in his heart deeply believe in any of the bullshit he espouses whereas clearly Hone deeply does believe his bullshit. Thus Winston can switch modes when he needs to. Hone can’t.
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April 23, 2011 6:25pm

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