General Debate 18 March 2011

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Chuck Bird

Why are these sick perverts in this homosexual paedophile ring not named? If the victims were young girls would the offenders get home detention and name suppression?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/artic … d=10713172
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March 18, 2011 9:05am
MT_Tinman

NZers near head of paedophile ring.

NZ soccer too gutless to play Japan.

I make no comment re connection, just note it’s not a great day in NZ history.
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March 18, 2011 9:11am
Manolo

Money well spent….not!

Hefty travel tab for fill-in Children’s Commissioner

Taxpayers have forked out nearly $35,000 in flights, accommodation and taxis for Children’s Commissioner John Angus to commute to Wellington from his Central Otago home.

They have been picking up the tab for Dr Angus to travel between the capital and Lowburn, near Cromwell, since he was appointed on a temporary basis to replace Cindy Kiro in May 2009.

It was revealed last month that he racked up more than $4500 in travel in the second half of last year, but new figures issued under the Official Information Act show he spent an additional $29,135 in his first 15 months in the job.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/4781769/Hefty-travel-tab-for-fill-in-Childrens-Commissioner/
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March 18, 2011 9:15am
Oskar

An interesting blog comment from the Des Moines Register on a State Owned company in China in the market for foreign farmland.

http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/index.php/2011/03/16/china-buying-foreign-farmland/
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March 18, 2011 9:16am
Viking2

Cheer up its Saturday tomorrow and tomorrow is another day and today will be yesterday tomorrow.
And the sun will shine and who needs shit to go on with?

find something nice to talk about and smile.
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March 18, 2011 9:17am
Manolo

A peaceful native continues to evade the police.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/4781708/Police-raids-fail-to-net-wanted-man

The last man in an alleged criminal group that triggered raids across Wellington continues to elude police.

The armed offenders squad raided a Berhampore property connected to the Satans Slaves motorcycle gang and an Upper Hutt property on Monday morning, after a motorcycle engine and cash were stolen in a Masterton robbery last month.

A 31-year-old was arrested in the raids, where police also found ammunition and cannabis plants, but Porky Rimene, aka Paul Rodgers, 38, remains wanted.
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March 18, 2011 9:17am
starboard

I see BP are first yet again to put the price of fuel up. Just drove past their company owned site in Fendalton and the price of diesel is now $1.55. Further down the road at a privately run small BP site the diesel price is $1.50. They would have to be the greediest bunch of assholes on the planet.

Im so ashamed to work for them.
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March 18, 2011 9:19am
starboard

“It was revealed last month that he racked up more than $4500 in travel in the second half of last year, but new figures issued under the Official Information Act show he spent an additional $29,135 in his first 15 months in the job.”

..oink oink…
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March 18, 2011 9:21am
wreck1080

@starboard: are they not just passing on increased costs?

AA keeps a pretty good eye on the fuel companies and even they agree the recent price rises are not only warranted but probably should go higher.

Notice the NZ dollar fell heavily over the last week , maybe that has something to do with it?
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March 18, 2011 9:23am
starboard

no , they are just greedy. For a long time the dollar was on a high with the US but they didnt drop prices. Then when the dollar drops by buggar all they rocket up the price. All of the oil companies have the same costs…I dont see Mobil or Caltex screwing their customers…yet. Its well known in the business that BP are the market leaders in price increases.
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March 18, 2011 9:37am
william blake

NZD down by 6cents price of crude down by 5USD per barrel in the same week, the Oil Companies just are trying to offset the cost of the digital displays they invested in when they decided to screw with the motorist.

Does anybody know what the profit margin of an oil company is? I bet it isn’t five cents in the dollar.
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March 18, 2011 9:39am
Inventory2

Is Maryan Street positioning herself for a tilt at Labour’s leadership?

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2011/03/is-this-best-that-labour-can-do.html

How else can this smear be explained?
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March 18, 2011 9:39am
Manolo

At the eleventh hour Labour-lite tries to give the impression is democratic about its dealings with the racists.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10713178

Speech ban ends for foreshore bill

The Government caved in to delaying tactics on its new foreshore bill yesterday, allowing its MPs to make speeches after three days of silence in an attempt to speed up progress.

The National Party had hoped the bill would pass its final reading this week – but delays from opposing parties meant that will not happen until at least next Thursday, after a protest hikoi is due to arrive in Wellington.
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March 18, 2011 9:40am
voice of reason

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10713215

He (Mr Power) had asked officials for options to tackle celebrity endorsements including “the possibility of celebrities being liable to investors for untrue statements”

So the corollary to this is that they will have to legislate to determine who is a celebrity?
FFS more nanny state legislation.
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March 18, 2011 9:45am
Manolo

FFS more nanny state legislation.

Why are you surprised? It’s the best Figjam Power and Labour lite can do.
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March 18, 2011 9:47am
joana

Manolo
When are you going back to Italy? Why so much hatred? It gets a bit tedious after awhile.
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March 18, 2011 9:48am
Rick Rowling

IIRC the deciding reason for Christchurch not getting the world cup games is that there’s a 6 month time frame to lay down the turf.

Sure it involves more that just dropping some grass seeds, but how perfect does turf need to be for rugby these days?

I reckon Pinetree would’ve played on a cow paddock – but despite the staunch rough image, maybe our rugby elite are a bit more precious in these days of professional contracts, mascara and advertising men’s personal hygiene products.

/ducks
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March 18, 2011 10:07am
Chuck Bird

An MP of a party made a written racist remark with he invitation to take it to the media. Someone who may or may not have been an ACT member made a racist remark off the cuff who thinks it may be humorous and that remark was not well received. You are comparing apples with oranges.
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March 18, 2011 10:22am
pdm

Rick R – the problem would be it’s ability to withstand consecutive games, Perhaps as many as three games over say 10 days and with rain that would quickly turn it into a ground like I used to play on in the 60’s – a mud bath. The IRB and even the NZRFU don’t like that – these days it is all about image not the challenge of adapting to different conditions.
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March 18, 2011 10:28am
nasska

“FFS more nanny state legislation.”

Another case where the ‘gummint’ thinks it must be seen to protect the geriatric fools who get their investment advice from the nice newsreader. They probably go to the dentist to buy bananas. Anyone that stupid should be put in a sheltered home for their own good.
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March 18, 2011 10:36am
Manolo

When are you going back to Italy?

Not yet, Joanna. Waiting for the invitation from Berlusconi for the next “social” gathering, aka party. 😀
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March 18, 2011 10:39am
Pete George

So the corollary to this is that they will have to legislate to determine who is a celebrity?

Good point if that’s specifically how they try and do it. It could be funny, some tryhards may think twice about “Look at me! Call me a celebrity!” – “Oh, except if I’m advertising”.

Power asked officials for options to tackle celebrity endorsements including “the possibility of celebrities being liable to investors for untrue statements” in the same way investment “experts” already are.

They could try a blanket approach and make anyone who appears in advertising liable for product deficiencies but that could be ludicrous too, prosecuting some random dorkus for appearing in a hamburger advert because a consumer found nothing lovin’ about the one they bought?

Shoot the messenger sort of stuff.
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March 18, 2011 10:42am
voice of reason

Rikc R – Pdm – AMI stadium

Reading reports and speaking to some in the know it seems pretty clear to me that VBase could have got the job done just in time. After all look at the cow paddock that is Millenium Stadium – if thats the IRB standard, then the turf wouldnt be an issue

The problem of course was the IRB wanting a “guarantee” and thus the millions in compensation if they didnt do it in time.
Perhaps the best solution would have been to move the Qtr Finals but leave the Rounds in place and re-assess closer to the time.

We’ve just had the Comm Games in India where Stadiums & Accomo apparently were only completed the day before, The Cricket world cup is underway now – again stadiums were only just finalised.

Seems India has the Can-do attitude that NZ used to have.
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March 18, 2011 10:51am
Inventory2

@ VoR – whilst the damage to the AMI pitch could have been repaired (although no-one yet knows what lurks under the turf, including damage to the drainage), apparently the new Deans Stand has settled due to liquefaction, and needs to be reinforced.

More than anything though, I think that the likely difficulty of getting Public Liability insurance may have been the clincher. The thought of a significant earthquake hitting a full stadium (and bear in mind that AMI Stadium is 2km closer to the Feb 22nd epicentre than the CBD) doesn’t bear thinking about. Our business recently had to produce evidence of PL cover for $2 million to be able to exhibit at a middle-of-the-road trade display where the biggest risk would be getting a paper cut from a brochure.
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March 18, 2011 11:09am
Bobbie black

England get a life in the cricket world cup.

How the hell did the windies lose that game?

Stupid run-out at the death.
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March 18, 2011 11:16am
MT_Tinman

I2 bullsit!

The Westpac Stadium in Wellington is on a bloody faultline, one more active than ChCh over the years. No insurance problems there so don’t come the full-stadium-during-an-earthquake crap.

The problem, legitimately, is that the gin-swilling freeloaders from the IRB may have had to rough it because the Deans stand is shagged.

Can’t have those bastards mixing with the peasants.

The rest of the crap like that paddock (this is rugby, not lawn bowls, golf or croquet) is smokescreen.
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March 18, 2011 11:19am
Bobbie black

The Chinese panic buying up salt.

http://www.newsday.com/business/china-panic-buy-table-salt-on-radiation-fears-1.2764986?qr=1

Well, let’s face it their red wine is mostly crap.

That pic reminds me of my student days, last jug orders at the Gardens.
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March 18, 2011 11:19am
Hurf Durf

I dropped my friends at the foolish eco-totalitarian neo-luddites a line and got a very generous, heartfelt complement from them in return. Aren’t I proud. 😀
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March 18, 2011 11:26am
voice of reason

Inv2 …”apparently the new Deans Stand has settled due to liquefaction, and needs to be reinforced.”

Yes approx 150 – 250mm in some areas – some of the supporting structure has to be re-inforced – difficult but do-able

“..The thought of a significant earthquake hitting a full stadium…”

Inv2 you’re sounding like Peter Bills !! That risk is ever present in the entire country.
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March 18, 2011 11:30am
wreck1080

Now that Gaddafi has largely crushed his opposition, the UN has decided to enforce a no fly zone.

Meh!
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March 18, 2011 11:44am
Longknives

Is it me or is this Cricket World Cup ‘pool play’ dragging on for what seems like an eternity??
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March 18, 2011 12:01pm
Pete George

It’s just you Longknives. Wait until they have the Cricket Test World Cup.
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March 18, 2011 12:18pm
Thrash Cardiom

Manolo
When are you going back to Italy? Why so much hatred? It gets a bit tedious after awhile.

A bit tedious? I’m seriously considering adding him to RIP so I don’t have to see his posts. It’ll be bye to the minnow Manolo.
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March 18, 2011 12:40pm
OECD rank 22 kiwi

No-Fly zone green lighted.

Now it’s time to light it up.
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March 18, 2011 12:52pm
Bobbie black

Honestly, you can make light of the Japan situation but it’s the first time I have ever seen Steve Marshall looking rattled in any item.

By the way, is he really a Kiwi?
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March 18, 2011 12:53pm
Pete George

A very interesting description of the geo mechanics: Christchurch earthquake data tracks ill-fated moment
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March 18, 2011 12:57pm
Bobbie black

A nice touch, Tony Kokshoorn, you felt your disaster too, your Mother Princess Diana, um losing her life.

Kiwi ingenuity at it’s best.
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March 18, 2011 1:01pm
k.jones

DPF, did you know Richard Wirthlin died?
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March 18, 2011 1:08pm
Shunda barunda

A nice touch, Tony Kokshoorn, you felt your disaster too, your Mother Princess Diana, um losing her life.

He didn’t!
did he?
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March 18, 2011 2:03pm
Shunda barunda

Who is this ‘gourd’ character the Anglican bishop of Christchurch keeps talking about?.
Seems like every religion ever in existence is getting air time in the garden city today.

I have my own religious beliefs, but I can’t stand all this ritualistic nonsense that Christianity has become.
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March 18, 2011 2:16pm
Pete George

Haha, very funny Shunda, “gourd” of the garden city.

I agree on the rituals, they seem to be far more important than the message.
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March 18, 2011 2:22pm
Fisiani

Have just finished listening to the moving memorial service.
Clicked on to the Standard. Nearly threw up.
The utter scum who dwell there dishonour the dead. They dishour the PM. They dishonour our future King.
They need to be totally crushed on Nov 26th.
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March 18, 2011 2:35pm
joana

Apparently there was a 3.3 quake during the service but I don’t think anyone noticed. The Anglican bishop went on too long and really thrashed the ”question technique.” As any trained public speaker would tell you , you could use a question at the beginning.or maybe towards the end..once , at a big stretch twice ; but I switched off listening to her when her speech started to feel like..”Sixty questions and counting…”
I enjoyed the service but felt the Pike river one was better…
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March 18, 2011 3:34pm
Viking2

Well, about the same standard as Marilyn Street. communist.
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March 18, 2011 3:35pm
joana

Manolo…You didn’t answer my question.Why so much hatred?
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March 18, 2011 3:37pm
BeaB

I thought it was moving. I also appreciated the different speaking styles. Joana -Perhaps this was a time to listen and reflect rather than critique.
I liked John Key’s comment that we all have scars on our heart. I also thought the Bishop of Christchurch was a compelling speaker. The procession of the different faiths was beautifully done.
I loved the mix of people in the huge crowd and the way they reacted.
And the two videos. Wow.
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March 18, 2011 3:39pm
backster

Absolutely brilliant service. They all excelled themselves. Hayley was always going to be the hilight for me and she was magnifique, but all the singers excelled themselves. I think KEY showed excellent timing again. I doubt if the passion, the guests, the crowd the weather would have been the same if delayed a month as his critics would have it. William set the Republic movement back 10 years and showed qualities of Kingship akin to the days of Arthur.
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March 18, 2011 3:54pm
Black with a Vengeance

Have just finished listening to the moving memorial service.
Clicked on to the Standard. Nearly threw up.
The utter scum who dwell there dishonour the dead. They dishour the PM. They dishonour our future King.
They need to be totally crushed on Nov 26th.

Still banned huh ?
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March 18, 2011 4:03pm
joana

Beab..it wasn’t ”Anglicans in the park.”…it was supposed to be a day for everyone in Canterbury. I don’t blame her entirely..Someone should have told her to keep it short.
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March 18, 2011 5:27pm
Tauhei Notts

Backster’s observation that William set the republic movement back ten years is prescient.
I agree with him.
………………….
Oskar at 9.16 a.m. It is comments like your’s that make this blog a damned sight better than the main stream media. Thanks, mate.
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March 18, 2011 5:41pm
BeaB

I guess it was a nod to history as Christchurch was a C of E settlement and the Cathedral was badly damaged. I loved hearing the choristers again. She was really the religious leader for the day and I, as an atheist, found myself listening because of the beauty of her words and her stately delivery.
As for verbosity, no-one could beat that old Maori chap at the start!
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March 18, 2011 5:55pm
Sofia

“As for verbosity, no-one could beat that old Maori chap at the start!

To observe that he was just ‘verbose’ is rather kind.
It was an embarrassing mishmash of Maori ‘spirituality’ and Old Testament myths, with two lame references to the Apple, and the one mention for Prince William ‘benefit’ was particularly cringe-worthy.

While another post in kiwiblog suggests Hilary Calvert is a fruit/nut bar, I am supportive of any move she makes to attempt to prevent this Maori krap being written into any of our Laws.

Maori are not a First Nation’s people, they are first immigrants only, and trashed large tracts of land and wiped out some native species [like moa and various of their own off-branch tribes]. Blending their animistic beliefs with Biblical myths has not improved the sense of either.
It would have been nice to see them given a more appropriate place in the order of service.
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March 18, 2011 6:50pm
joana

Glad you got something out of it Beab..you are entitled to your opinions , as everyone else is to theirs….I loved ”that old Maori chap.”
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March 18, 2011 6:51pm
Pauleastbay

….As for verbosity, no-one could beat that old Maori chap at the start!…..

You mean to say they let a Maori speak in public in Christchurch? …. My kids are right the worlds gone mad and going to end in 2012
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March 18, 2011 6:54pm
reid

Well, about the same standard as Marilyn Street. communist.

I was at a graduation ceremony at Michael Fowler when Hulun’s reign was grinding on and she was the guest speaker and guess what: instead of making an appropriate speech she made a party political broadcast.

It was so appalling that if she’d done a strip-tease that would have been preferable, it was that bad.
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March 18, 2011 7:24pm
Pete George

Melissa Lee has to be one of the the biggest embarrassments the Nats have, she must be history come November, surely. There’s been plenty of petty political dissing over the service, but especially involving an MP that twit is one of the worst examples.
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March 18, 2011 7:42pm
Chuck Bird

“While another post in kiwiblog suggests Hilary Calvert is a fruit/nut bar, I am supportive of any move she makes to attempt to prevent this Maori krap being written into any of our Laws.”

Sofia, I am am ACT member and very supportive of Hilary. We do not have a problem with Maori but Maori elite with with thier snouts in the trough.

Putting donw the Maori race is not helpful as hopefully one ACT member or supported hopefully found when he made a rather stupid interjection at the conference that got reported in the media. His comment was not well received but that was only reported by some in the media.
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March 18, 2011 7:54pm
reid

but Maori elite with their snouts in the trough

Yes, it would be interesting to see charts showing (a) tiriti legal aid as a % of the whole and (b) number of law firms whose income disproportionately consists of tiriti legal aid and (c) who are the partners in those law firms.

I wonder if people like Annette Sykes would crop up.

Honestly, there should be a public online register of everyone who receives a cent of taxpayer money related in anyway to treaty issues whether it be for blessing a building, advocating before the tribunal or removing a taniwhai from SH3.
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March 18, 2011 8:16pm
Hurf Durf

As regards this no-fly zone: two weeks too late? Will the rebels stand their ground after a week of crushing blows? Will Gaddafi’s remaining loyalists break in the face of Western air power? Tune in tomorrow for the next exciting episode!
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March 18, 2011 8:25pm
Sofia

“Sofia, I am am ACT member and very supportive of Hilary. We do not have a problem with Maori but Maori elite with with thier snouts in the trough.”

Besides them, I thought the objection was writing more undefined Maori terms into Law [Seabed/Forsure], while people are still trying to decide what the wording of the 171 year old Treaty actually said.
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March 18, 2011 8:27pm
reid

I support ACT’s thinking in this area which is if I understand correctly is: let the courts decide.

That’s the ONLY appropriate fora for this all to play itself out.

If this isn’t a justice issue then what is it?

So who do you go to for justice in this country.
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March 18, 2011 8:37pm
Nookin

Well done the Chiefs — 15 – 9 on the Sharks
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March 18, 2011 9:17pm
Hurf Durf

An excellent piece of research here, “JP Quake – Journalist Wall of Shame,” tracking the worst journalistic malfeasances concerning the Fukushima 1 reactor problems, featuring our very own Dom Post for “Fall out fear – Japanese braces for meltdown, selecting a picture of a mushroom cloud like explosion because they couldn’t think of nuclear in any other terms than a mushroom cloud.”
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March 18, 2011 10:13pm
wat dabney

It was certainly appropriate to thank Yahweh for preventing the earthquake. Oh, wait. I mean for holding up all those buildings so everyone could escape. Oh, hang on.

er…

Has anyone else noticed that it’s almost like this invisible pixie doesn’t exist?
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March 18, 2011 10:17pm
reid

Would you rather live in a much more fluffy world where nothing really dangerous ever happened, or this one?

Hurf the only shame belongs to the mental idiots who believed that crap and became all hysterical rather than do the elementary research required to determine the science and engineering and thus what was really going on. There are a lot of them and it’s a puzzle as to what to do about it.
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March 18, 2011 10:27pm
wat dabney

Here are the statistics showing how the profitability of oil companies compares with other industry sectors:

http://www.api.org/statistics/earnings/upload/earnings_perspective.pdf

Whilst BP may indeed be “the greediest bunch of assholes on the planet” there is no indication in these figures that they have any pricing power whatsoever.
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March 18, 2011 10:33pm
reid

Hurf thanks for the link, as well.
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March 18, 2011 10:37pm
Luc Hansen

And Hurf is another example of our failing education system and further proof of my new theory: Greens can’t add and the Right can’t spell.

Hurf, I think you mean someone paid you a compliment.

And I think we will find that in Libya, better late than never, and earlier would, in fact, have been problematic. The conflict is now more narrowly focused. At least the East is saved from Gaddafi, and eventually Gaddafi will be removed. Saif should get smart and bugger off.
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March 19, 2011 12:02am
Luc Hansen

Just watched Cameron quoting Human Rights Watch on Libya abuses. No problem with that, but it does indicate how important these NGO’s are.

Now then, how about HRW’s documentation of Israeli abuses against Palestinians?

Will he now support a no-fly zone over Gaza and the West Bank? No more sonic booms on an imprisoned population? No more drones murdering people in the streets?

However, I’m grateful for small mercies, and this has been a Cameron initiative, so thank you, David.
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March 19, 2011 12:10am
Hurf Durf

Hahaha oh wow. You froth at the mouth over a misplaced vowel? Tell you what, mate, lay off the LSD for a week and feel what it’s like to live without the spiteful pedantry. It feels good.

At least the East is saved from Gaddafi,

Oh yeah, absolutely. Zawiyah? Rad La’nuf? Brega? Fuck them. Let them get bulldozed so long as it looks like we’re not too eager. Don’t want to hype up the conspiracy theorists.
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March 19, 2011 12:17am
Hurf Durf

And I deliberately renamed Ras La’nuf to accentuate just how funky the place is so SHUT UP OK
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March 19, 2011 12:21am
Luc Hansen

By the way reid and Hurf, have you looked up the official potential consequences of a now Level 6 nuclear incident? The Japanese authorities have a reputation for downplaying bad news and this is yet another example.

The Japanese PM has just now called the situation “very grave.” Live on Al Jazeera.

Hurf, so you going to go and camp outside the reactor? Take reid with you.

And no, I don’t think “nuclear bad”. I think it’s just so sad for the locals.

Earthquake, tsunami, nuclear incident, tardy aid response by the government there.

If I knew how to set up an NGO I would set up an “Adopt a Family” movement along the lines of Save the Children. One NZ family could directly aid one Japanese family or individual until their lives are sorted out. Anyone want to help?
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March 19, 2011 12:25am
Luc Hansen

Hurf, the delay is the nature of diplomacy.

You don’t usually give a stuff about Arabs or Muslims. Why the sudden change of heart?

PS Check out my contribution to DPF’s “Outbidded” post and you will see why your mistakes are now important.

Wipe your chin first.
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March 19, 2011 12:29am
Hurf Durf

I don’t really see what’s diplomatic about a civilian uprising being crushed under tanks. This isn’t a trade pact or a cultural exchange.

You’ll note that Russia and China don’t back this action, by the way. It’ll be an entirely Western affair. So is Gaddafi now back to being a brave resistor of American imperialism again?

One good outcome of this is that it’ll teach the British government the importance of aircraft carriers.
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March 19, 2011 12:51am
Luc Hansen

Goes to show, Hurf, we can’t even be on the same side!

The multilateral, UN, approach is the right thing to do. The US, especially, given its record in the region, had to seek that mandate. Of course it could have been faster, but the major battle was to get China and Russia to abstain rather than veto (which is most wielded by the US in favour of Israeli colonialism and human rights breaches).

Now, as we speak, the US supported election-rigger of Yemen is having peaceful protesters shot in the streets. I’m watching it live on Iranian TV. (You should try it. You won’t go blind.) And this is as the US supported autocracy in Bahrain shoots its own people in its streets. The humanity of the US government is selective, to put it politely. In reality, it is based on geopolitics and, above all, oil. Think about it.

And also live, Libya government has declared an immediate ceasefire, thanks to the UN resolution. Well done Cameron.
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March 19, 2011 1:41am
Luc Hansen

Tens of thousands of brave Bahrainis in the streets, now, in breach of martial law, protesting following funerals of protesters.

When will rulers learn that killings are followed by funerals?

I wonder if the US will withdraw its Fifth Fleet and stop buying Bahraini oil in protest?
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March 19, 2011 1:51am
Hurf Durf

but the major battle was to get China and Russia to abstain rather than veto

Or we could just circumvent them and use NATO (like we did with Kosovo, only then it took years to realise the UN option was LOL). Because, you see, it doesn’t really matter if it’s the US or the UK or France who leads the effort – to Chavez and Ahmedinejad and their Western allies of convenience, it’s all the same evil Jewish neocons plotting in the darkness to steal the oil. Optics is a joke when you consider hard-wired paranoia in people and power politics.

I’m watching it live on Iranian TV.

The humanity of the US government is selective, to put it politely. In reality, it is based on geopolitics and, above all, oil.

You see? Thank you for proving my earlier point.

And also live, Libya government has declared an immediate ceasefire,

So we could have just sailed a carrier battle group around the Med and made some growling three weeks ago and he may have blinked and three weeks of carnage would have been avoided? Great one. Hard power complements (Hah!) soft power, it can’t be removed completely like Bryla thinks. Well done to Cameron for sticking to his guns when leftists mocked his initial proposal, and admonishments to certain other politicians who hemmed and hawwed for days on end.
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March 19, 2011 1:57am
Luc Hansen

Hurf

It’s such a shame you can’t stick to the topic without demonising others, even those who basically agree with you!

We both agree the no-fly is a great idea. It’s had an effect even though not one western planes has taken to the skies.

You missed my point that the US, especially, needed a UN mandate. Did you not see coverage of all those Libyan placards a week ago: NO FOREIGN INTERVENTION. No?

It’s true, it could be considered churlish to mention oil in the Libyan’s moment of need, and the US is so often generous when the need is there – it has 14 ships off the coast of Japan, doing what they can. I remember the generous assistance in December, 2004. There seemed to be no strings attached there, and the end result was a degree of autonomy for Aceh. So fair enough.

However, the fact is that the US so often intervenes when oil is involved, if it possibly can. In this case, unlike Iraq under GW, it accepted the authority of the UN. The UN is relevant again. That’s great for peace. Now let’s see the US stop vetoing resolutions supporting freeing Palestinians from Israeli occupation.
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March 19, 2011 2:38am
Hurf Durf

You missed my point that the US, especially, needed a UN mandate. Did you not see coverage of all those Libyan placards a week ago: NO FOREIGN INTERVENTION. No?

I also remember people begging for Western intervention and support the day after, fearing an absolute hammering at the hands of Gaddafi’s army. And, of course, the whole optics of intervention was rendered moot when it turned out Obama asked Saudi Arabia to supply arms to the rebels. In fact, I wonder if there was an element of realpolitik in that and an element of truth in your assertion of the importance of oil (probably more geopolitics, though) – “we’ll help them out if you keep hush when we act in Bahrain.” Ah, politics. Never change. :/

Of course, for us two internet warriors it’s all a matter of perspective, isn’t it?

The UN is relevant again. That’s great for peace.

Eh, questionable. When you compare the UN’s performance here to the Ivory Coast, it shows that it’s only really relevant when the West (and yes, Russia and China) is actively using it to provide its wider goals some diplomatic legitimacy. In this sense, the UN’s image of toothlessness is amplified. The diplomatic situation is very similar to the Korean War IMO.
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March 19, 2011 2:47am
Luc Hansen

Now that’s a good, civil, even reasoned post Hurf. You should stick to that style. It suits you.

And I have little argument with that post, although I’m not sure about the relevance of the Korean war. China was never going to allow the west to get too close. But I do think it will allow, now, a peaceful unification someday. I look forward to that.

Iran’s PressTV has got good coverage of the Friday demonstrations in the ME. Dozens dead on Yemeni. Bahrainis are marching. No shooting reported so far. But shootings in Saudi Arabia.

It’s dilemma time for the US.

Personally, I doubt Tony Blair would have done what Cameron has done.

But Cameron’s financial ideology is going to drive his country into an inequality tailspin.
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March 19, 2011 3:08am
Falafulu Fisi

But Cameron’s financial ideology is going to drive his country into an inequality tailspin.

That’s a fact of life. Deal with that. Inequality will always be there, irrelevant if there’s wealth redistribution.

Surprise there Luc. You now pro-western for action against Libya. Fuck the UN. The US or Western countries with common interests could have taken action earlier on without UN approval. I’m surprised that the UN made a decision to enforce a no-fly zone this fast. I thought that they will debate, debate, debate (God for how long) this issue for longer than 2 years while Gaddafi massacred its own people.

Palestinian & Israeli conflict is different. Israel retaliates back to provocation from the Palestinians and that’s a face. If you hit me, I hit you back. If you keep hitting me then afterwards because you don’t learn, then I’ll keep hitting you back. Don’t crybaby if I keep hitting you back, since you don’t stop hitting me. Stop hitting me & I’ll stop hitting you? Is that logic simple enough or not?
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March 19, 2011 8:52am
Inky_the_Red

There is a big difference between Libya and Bahrain;

1. The west like the dictatorship in Bahrain but not the one in Libya
2. The Bahrain Government has called in reinforcements from other country to put down protests in Bahrain
3. In Libya there is a civil war. Both sides are killing each other. In Bahrain the people are protesting and as far as I can tell it is only the government that is doing the killing

There is no doubt Gaddafi has gone too far murdering his people in a cowardly way. However his is not the only regime doing this so why single out Libya. Bahrain and Yemen are just as bad
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March 19, 2011 10:22am

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