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March 7, 2011 7:25pm by David Farrar

A billboard I like

Hat Tip: Whale

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NZ Politics
MMP
Winston First

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jaba

no no no no no
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March 7, 2011 7:42pm
Inventory2

Bloody good billboard that; Winston gets hoist by his own petard 🙂
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March 7, 2011 7:44pm
jaba

shit .. just read the link to Tumuku .. whatever .. Bombers site .. he he fucking mad?? what’s the saying about being careful what you wish for
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March 7, 2011 7:58pm
Viking2

Well you could put Hone in the picture and certainly Turiana and or Dunne as all could be in the same frame. Look what we have now with the various parties pulling strings that most of us didn’t vote for as opposed did vote for.
We didn’t vote for ETS, nor did we vote for the Foreshore and seabed to be traded away for sweet f*** all.
But we got them courtesy of the same racist behavoir.

We did vote for financial prudence, growing nz economy, lower taxes, removing the anti smacking bill (89%, wasn’t it) and so on. All these seemed to have escaped the notice of the PM and his lot whilst he has bent over backwards to accommodate those things we didn’t vote for because the racists seem to have the power and control as they are the majority group in Parliament.

Its a feeble attempt to pervert the course of democracy by the anti representative vote.
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March 7, 2011 8:03pm
Crusader

Look, you could have a 2 party FPP system, and have the same dudes in parliament (Winnie was a nat, remember), just haggling with eachother in closed rooms, rather than slagging it out in the media. We could have a close election result and it all depend upon one maverick backbencher threatening to cross the floor. The 2 party system did not save Australia from a hung parliament and a small number of independents calling the shots. It’s all just politics, man.
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March 7, 2011 8:39pm
Liberty

The media keep going on about Winston standing for an electorate Seat.
He will not for a number of reasons.
He would have to put in the hard craft for months. That means work.
He needs an electorate with at least 3000 paid up NZF member that aren’t in the grave.
Bolger is no longer the PM. Pissing of National party members.
NZf still hasn’t paid back the $150,000
If he was a real MP he would have to work.
The haughty one is gone. No more junket jobs.
Parliament is far more constructive without him.
He is a has-been.
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March 7, 2011 9:03pm
toad

Peters is vile, bigoted, and corrupt. I never want to see him in Parliament again.

But a fair and democratic electoral system should give him the opportunity. If enough people vote for Peters and what he represents, then they deserve representation in Parliament.

That is what democracy is about – representation of the electorate. I despise everything Peters (supposedly) stands for – as I do Rodney Hide for that matter – but that doesn’t mean the people who support their views should not be able to be represented in Parliament. MMP allows that.

FPP results in an effective dictatorship. Remember that in 1978 and 1981 Rob Muldoon retained Government (without having to form a coalition or support party relationship) with less than 40% of the popular vote, and in each case less of it than Labour received.

Much as I despise NZFirst’s bigotry, if sufficient New Zealanders support bigotry, then they should have the right to be democratically represented.
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March 7, 2011 9:27pm
dime

Dime loves the two party system.

FPP was great. Get rid of shit heads who cant win seats (green party). Get rid of pandering to small parties. Awesome.

Ya think national would be this piss weak in a 2 party system? no chance.
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March 7, 2011 9:32pm
Whaleoil

I don’t think many people want FPP, I certainly don’t. But I also want to stop scum list mPs dominating the parliament.

Frankly if you can’t win a seat you don’t deserve to be in parliament. We can have proportional representation without the rort that is MMP.
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March 7, 2011 9:36pm
Viking2

Sorry Dime but you need to bone up on the Nats. history. Been hopeless since Holland went and they became socialists.
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March 7, 2011 9:36pm
PaulL

Toad. I agree with your sentiment – MMP is better than the alternatives, and just because you don’t like someone’s politics isn’t a reason to try to disenfranchise them.

Your actual points are a bit shaky though.
1. Effective dictatorship. I think you don’t understand what a dictatorship is. Tyranny of a substantial minority, yes. But it remains true that he could be voted out, and he was. He maintained power with substantially less than 50% of the vote, and that was bad. But don’t over-egg it.

2. Rodney Hide. Tell me what you think he stands for. I think you’re debating a straw man. What do you have against the rule of law, equal rights for all, and the government getting out of both our social and economic lives? Despise is a pretty strong word.

I’d have gone the other way. I despise Peters because in power he never did any of the things he promised in the election campaigns, and then turned up and campaigned on it the next time. He appears to me to have been corrupt and taken bribes, he was involved in all sorts of dubious dealings, and he couldn’t lie straight in bed. His interviews with the media are a case in point.

The Greens I don’t agree with. But I don’t despise them, I just wish their policies had even a whiff of realism about them, and I wish that their policies matched the branding on the box (i.e. were Green). I think it’s important that we save adjectives for the things that they were intended for, rather than overusing and devaluing them.
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March 7, 2011 9:37pm
Maggie

So the scare tactics begin. Who is behind this billboard, Farrar? You?

[DPF: The NZ branch of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy of course.]
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March 7, 2011 9:38pm
Yvette

What would happen if MMP remainder but Parliament allowed no coalitions?

It would mean all measures would have to be argued in a way that would require more true work from politicians, and to hold those decisions, or the means by which they were made, up full public scrutiny would require more true work from the media, and a lot more work from the public themselves.

Oh – right – now I see why this truly hasn’t a fucking chance of working.
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March 7, 2011 9:51pm
emmess

That is what democracy is about – representation of the electorate. I despise everything Peters (supposedly) stands for – as I do Rodney Hide for that matter – but that doesn’t mean the people who support their views should not be able to be represented in Parliament. MMP allows that.

So why is one of the lefts current talking points to remove the rule that allows a proportional share if a party falls below the threshold but wins a electorate seat, and to the lower the threshold?
Seems to me it is only aimed at ACT and to benefit Winston First when other partys have benefited and been hurt from it in the past.
Hypocrisy?
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March 7, 2011 9:51pm
PaulL

Maggie, last I looked DPF supported MMP. Doubt he’d be behind this billboard. Your random accusations need to have a least some probability of being correct, surely?

[DPF: I support MMP over FPP. This does not mean I support MMP over all other options]
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March 7, 2011 10:03pm
Whaleoil

I’m behind this billboard. Actually I’m in front of it….I’m not skulking or hiding nor will I be using parliamentary funds to push my agenda.
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March 7, 2011 10:13pm
noskire

Imagine Peters as Earthquake Recovery Minister – priorities would be to restore Addington and Riccarton racetracks ASAP, urgent rebuild of the 3 Wise Men branch in the CBD, not to mention the commandeering of helicopters…
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March 7, 2011 10:33pm
Jeff83

Winston having lost Tauranga is hardly a sure fire bet of ever getting into parliament again, and not a reason in itself to get rid of a truly representational system. Much good has come from having more diverse view points in parliament.

You can always focus on the negatives, but there are negatives with any system. FPP effectively brought NZ the closest it has come to full unrest through the divisive politics of Muldoon, and his ilk have been shuned by what is required in MMP.

Ironically it has been the middle, rather than the extremes which has benefited from MMP. If you compare the NZ house to the disgrace which is the UK, there is no way I ever would want to go to FPP, or AV.

STV is interesting, but potentially to complicated.
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March 7, 2011 10:35pm
Rich Prick

“Peters is vile, bigoted, and corrupt.”

But toad, your lot were happy to work with him last time arround. We take it the Greens will not rule Winston out as National has done? Do your lot have any principles? Or will your lot snuggle up if it gets the Greens onto the treasury benches?
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March 7, 2011 10:38pm
Rich Prick

maggie, DPF is the Dark overlord of the vast right-wing conspiracy, you should sign up for the newsletters. They will tell you where we have our prayer meetings for Saint Ruth and Disciple Roger. The Holy Grail is still missing, Mother Thatcher had it the last time we looked.
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March 7, 2011 10:51pm
Liberty

The reason why the electorate is so cynical about mmp is because Bolger, Peters and Clark used it for their own self gratification. Under Bolger and Clark the electorate voted but the Government was arranged by a select few.
John Key has change that .
The A team is National, Act, Mäori
The B team is Labour, Peters and any flotsam.
Coalitions should be decided before the election.
No more deals and junket jobs.
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March 7, 2011 11:10pm
Rich Prick

Liberty, I do agree, we should be entitled know which dogs the tails will attach themselves to before the election. We are the voters afterall. I think National has done the right thing saying which flea it doesn’t want.

That just leaves Labour, or what’s left of it, the Greens with Delahunty throwing cats at the camera and uncle Tom-cobbly. Nice. Just nice.
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March 7, 2011 11:24pm
francis

Even after many years of looking at this system, as an American, it STILL just looks like cricket. Unless you’re born to it, it makes no sense.
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March 7, 2011 11:33pm
rakuraku

Its going to be an interesting year I can see the the Greens, Winnie’s NZ First and Hone Hatfields Party holding the balance of power will be hilariously good fun watching the sideshow.
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March 8, 2011 2:45am
Maggie

RP, didn’t know you were connected to the BRT. but it hardly comes as a surprise.
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March 8, 2011 4:10am
Maggie

Liberty, how can you decide upon coalitions before you know the election result? You have to play with the hand you are dealt, surely.
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March 8, 2011 4:13am
Inventory2

@ toad (9.27pm) – your opening statement cannot be faulted.

@ Maggie – ridicule the VRWC at your peril; they are EVERYWHERE!
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March 8, 2011 5:59am
Pete George

Even after many years of looking at this system, as an American, it STILL just looks like cricket. Unless you’re born to it, it makes no sense.

A cricket system must be better than one where each conference has it’s own rules, and the main sport is wallet walloping – that’s not cricket for sure.
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March 8, 2011 6:47am
Pete George

how can you decide upon coalitions before you know the election result?

Obviously you can’t decide on coalitions before the election, but nothing wrong with the major parties indicating who amongst the small party options they would be prepared to work with.

Would Labour deal with Act if it meant the difference between cobbling together a ruling coalition or not?
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March 8, 2011 6:57am
Bobbie black

Maybe doesn’t matter this time around as National look like romping in anyway.

Probably the best situation, MMP without a coalition.
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March 8, 2011 7:09am
Inventory2

@ Pete; Labour would deal with the devil if that was the price of power. Remember 2005?
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March 8, 2011 7:10am
ross

Who would’ve thought – another person besides DPF who is obssessed with Winston. He’ll be deciding the next PM when I win Lotto.
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March 8, 2011 7:23am
Nookin

Ross

Please don’t buy any tickets. Even with the odds as they are we cannot afford the risk.
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March 8, 2011 7:34am
Manolo

Brilliant way of rejecting both, the venal Peters and the wretched MMP.
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March 8, 2011 7:35am
Guy Fawkes

Germany has managed to prosper with MMP, but that may be more to do with their efficiency and mindset. Personally I favour FPP.
But that is very flawed as well. I agree with DPF. There are better forms of PR, and just maybe what we have already with fine tuning makes the most sense. I favour any coalition possibility, but only if formally agreed, and pre-declared to the electorate franchise.

Only then will we know what we are voting for. Labour agreeing to work with the likes of Winston First and having to declare it will almost certainly cost them more votes than they might gain as a party.
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March 8, 2011 7:45am
toad

@PaulL (3,848) 9:37 pm

Point take re “effective dictatorship” – it wasn’t the correct terminology, although having gone through 9 years of Muldoon, it felt like it at the time.

Agree that “despise” is a pretty strong word, and it isn’t one I would have used in relation to Hide until recently. I’ve always disagreed with his “small government, privatise everything, the market know best” approach. But I only came to despise him when he started to cynically deny anthropogenic climate change as a political ploy (he’s too clever to actually believe the rubbish that the likes of Monckton spew out) and after he was exposed as one of Parliament’s biggest rorters while having railed for years against Parliamentary perks.
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March 8, 2011 7:59am
Pete George

I agree on Hide, his principled stands seem to have morphed into cynical wannabe populist – albeit trying to appeal to a minor demographic (maybe he thinks it’s much bigger than it is). Much like Peters.
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March 8, 2011 8:05am
toad

@Whaleoil 9:36 pm

Do I presume you support STV then?

The difficulty with STV in New Zealand is that because of our small population and its concentration in the north, multi-member electorates in the South Island would be huge and there would a likelihood that many people would live nowhere near a “local” MP. Mind you, I suppose that happens now with the Maori seats to some extent.
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March 8, 2011 8:09am
KiwiGreg

“and there would a likelihood that many people would live nowhere near a “local” MP.”

Who cares. Who in their right mind would voluntarily want to see “their” MP. People need to learn to sort their own shit out.
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March 8, 2011 8:17am
s.russell

Simpler solution: don’t vote for Winnie.
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March 8, 2011 9:00am
Bobbie black

Winnie-the-pooh probably did National a favour, they now know to play the race card as they are safe to dump the Maori party forever.

And Hone gave them the key, so to speak.

There is a God after it all it seems.
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March 8, 2011 9:06am
Liberty

Maggie asked

how can you decide upon coalitions before you know the election result?

Key has done It. The voters have been given a clear choice. The A team or the other lot.
Where as in the past. The lust for power Bolger and Clark both drank from the poison chalice.
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March 8, 2011 9:26am
peterwn

See that Winston is talking to the oldies at the Porirua Club today promising more goodies for the oldies.

This would give Labour a real double whammy. Not only would they need to finance their own set of promises, they need to be prepared to finance Winston’s ones as well.
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March 8, 2011 9:41am
Maggie

Thanks for that, Whaleoil. I assume as you are a beneficiary, the money came from National Party coffers?

Clearly there are some coalitions you can rule out. Greens/National/ACT, Greens/Labour/ACT are pretty unlikely combinations. But no-one kows where the Maori Party will go and Peter Dunne is a loose cannon.

[DPF: The National Party is far too stingy to fund Whale. Whale and I get funded directly from Haliburton]
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March 8, 2011 12:14pm
Mark

It could be even worse it could be Rodney Hide or oh crap it could be both of them. Ideally both Winston and Rodney will get the red card at the next election and we can all breathe a little easier
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March 8, 2011 1:41pm
Shazzadude

Peter Brown came very close to winning Kaimai in 1993, which if he managed to pull off would have allowed Winston Peters to decide the prime minister under FPP as well.

A move away from a representational system to an electorate-based one doesn’t remove this possibility, as evidenced in Australia and the UK.
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March 8, 2011 1:45pm
Batman

So I read here everyday and hardly comment. but this is something I happen to know about.

As a recent political Science student who did research on electoral systems and on this year’s MMP referendum, I feel that I can offer some insight into this issue…. hopefully without partisan people getting their thongs in a twist. DISCLAIMER: I happen to favour MMP, based on the statistics which show that it is the most democratic system out of the four options and my love for true representative democracy (no, i’m not a lefty at all).

– This billboard is a rather cheap shot at MMP. if you going to criticise an electoral system, do it on its perceived weaknesses, not who happens to be in standing under it. the way to stop Winston getting into power is to convince people to NOT VOTE FOR HIM, easy peasy! it makes no different whether it is under MMP, FPP, STV, SM or AV. all up, a 1/10 for effort.

– parties declaring partners before the election. the main parties can only work with other parties who are viable partners, THE VOTERS determine which minor parties are viable by using their party votes (mostly) and electorate votes. If all of NZ is sick of the minor parties, don’t vote for them. STRATEGIC VOTING is the way to determine our government, for the people and by the people blah blah blah.

– ‘elective dictatorship’ was a phrase coined by political scientists to describe how NZ was governed under MMP, so it is actually very accurate. here is a very good and short article by Prof. Margaret Clark http://www.futurestrust.org.nz/images/stories/FTA/OurChoices/clark.pdf

– this referendum is very complicated, such is the nature of the subject. but very simply, FPP is too disproportionate and results in large sectors of society missing out. Supplementary Member is OK but is less representative than MMP, best of the rest. STV is OK but can be very contentious as we saw in the Wellington Mayoral race. Alternative vote is what they use in AUS, very satisfying to rate candidates in order! but is complex and has high rates of invalid votes due to mistakes by voters.

must go now, back to saving the world with a utility belt and a PVC costume. will keep an eye on this thread so sing out if you want me to answer Q’s 🙂
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March 8, 2011 1:54pm
Pete George

The MMP list wouldn’t be so bad if it was used a lot smarter, the parties and the voters are using MMP poorly.
Every system can be used or abused, it depends on who it is implemented.

Electorate MPs should be voted in for their abiity to look after an electorate. Electorates are used far too much as a safe secure seat.

PM, dPM, ministers, speaker, and opposition leader at least should be list MPs, they should be too busy to have to deal with an electorate.

Media and the internet should be used to highlight the right details rather than simply pushing a presidential style contest.
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March 8, 2011 1:59pm
Maggie

As Whaleoil is not skulking or hiding I expect him to reveal who is paying for the billboard – Peter Shirtcliffe, perhaps?
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March 8, 2011 2:12pm
Whaleoil

Maggie, you must be congenitally feeble of mind. I posted the image, one I made myself with photoshop for free. In my post which David linked to I clearly explain what I intend to do.

Because you are too dim to either follow the link or if you have, failed to understand I am wanting ordinary citizens to stump up for a billboard in their town.

There is no “big money” bogey man behind this, there is no conspiracy, I am simply trying to give voice as a citizen to concerns that MMP be allowed to continue without valid and open criticism.

It says more about you that you are scared of a debate and even more that you think individuals like Peter Shirtcliffe are not allowed a part int eh debate because…well just because.

For the record I have never met Peter, nor ever spoken to him on the phone, nor even been in email contact, given that he is over 80 it is highly unlikely he even knows who I am.

Sometimes things are just as they appear. A person with an idea, and photoshop wanting to start something to get debate going.

Might I suggest Maggie, that you go read the post so you can grasp what is trying to be done. Then you might have some valid comment to make instead of just slinging shit everywhere.
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March 8, 2011 2:25pm
Pete George

Maggie, the best way to compete and promote MMP is to make it work better. Ditch all the negative petty politics. Promote a list as a viable government in waiting – that means finding people who can display strong pragmatic leadership rather than rewarding the faithfull fillers.
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March 8, 2011 2:32pm
Nookin

Batman: reasoned comment and possibly right. Unfortunately you miss the mark in 2 respects: 1. A lot of voters don’t like reasoned judgements – they like pictures and 2. Even if there is a reasoned judgement most people will ask for it to be translated into reality. What does that mean? The sign says that MMP may lead to Peters dictating who is the next government. It’s happened before – twice. And the sign has a touch of irony about it. Elections aren’t determined by political scientists. A lot of the time they are determined by dumb people. So — talk their lingo!
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March 8, 2011 2:32pm
Maggie

Whaleoil, being an individual of discernment and taste I don’t read your blog. There is just so much crap a person can stand.

I’m delighted you are using your time as a beneficiary in such useful pursuits. The taxpayer is certainly getting value from you.

Given your past history you should be the last person to accuse anyone of throwing shit. Personal insults are your stock in trade as your posting clearly demonstrates.

I am not against debate and believe our system of MMP needs refining. I do believe the debate needs to be open and honest, terms you would not understand.

[DPF: I have a theory – that whenever someone feels a need to publicly proclaim they don’t read a particular blog, they in fact read it every day addictively]
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March 8, 2011 3:23pm
Batman

OK then, *translator on*

MMP is defo tha way 2 go bro, itz liek betta than tht dum shit liek FPP n shit. itz liek fare n shit. MMP good. voteing for Winst0n iz bad aye
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March 8, 2011 4:08pm
Maggie

DPF, I’m sure you have loads of theories. Not all of them are accurate. Do you really think any intelligent individual could put up with TWO National Party blogs in one day?
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March 8, 2011 4:28pm
Batman

On a serious note, I find it worrying that the MMP review that is triggered by MMP winning the referendum has not been publicised enough. many people do not know this will happen so could perhaps vote MMP out even though they may prefer a comprehensive review that results in a better form of MMP.

Lord knows that MMP has some weaknesses that can be addressed!
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March 8, 2011 4:43pm
nasska

…..”Do you really think any intelligent individual could put up with TWO National Party blogs in one day?”…..

Why risk your mental equilibrium? Try putting up with NO National Party blogs per day. It will be hard without you but we’ll try to cope.
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March 8, 2011 5:03pm
Nookin

Batman 4.08.
Much better.
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March 8, 2011 5:21pm
Maggie

nasska, thank you so much. It is good to feel welcome here.
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March 8, 2011 7:01pm
big bruv

Maggie

“Personal insults are your stock in trade as your posting clearly demonstrates.”

Prove to me that you are not full of crap, pop over to the EPMU and Labour blog the Standard and say the same thing to them.
You might think Whale is a bit rough but for naked hatred you cannot go past the Standard.
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March 8, 2011 7:33pm
Maggie

Prove to me you are not full of crap and stop giving gratuitous advice.
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March 8, 2011 9:18pm
rakuraku

I’ll stick with Winston he has the ability to read between the lines.
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March 8, 2011 10:51pm
Rich Prick

“You might think Whale is a bit rough but for naked hatred you cannot go past the Standard.”

I’d rather run naked through Kirks than look at that “other bog”. Thanks.
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March 8, 2011 11:09pm

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