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February 4, 2011 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 4 February 2011

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General Debate

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Monty

The sooner John Hatfield is expelled from the Maori Party the better the the country. His arrogance would give Winston Peters a run for his money.

Dragons
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February 4, 2011 8:02am
Manolo

The Messiah’s policies of cronyism to reward his wealthy supporters:

Obama issues global warming rules in January, gives GE an exemption in February

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/02/obama-issues-global-warming-rules-january-gives-ge-exemption-febr
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February 4, 2011 8:17am
philu

http://whoar.co.nz/2011/commentwhoartvnz-breakfast-show-interviews-hone-harawiraand-on-reporting-the-interviewgets-it-totally-wrong/

w.t.f. are they smoking up at tvnz..?

hone harawira was just interviewed on tvnz breakfast..

..and of course one of the questions many wanted answered was about the rumoured new left wing party…

..when asked about this…harawira said he wasn’t planning to leave the maori party..but that (quote:) ..

..’you can never say never..’

now..to me..that is a fairly clear statement of intent..

..namely..not now..but maybe later…

so how does the tvnz news bulletin report the interview..?

‘hone harawira rules out joining any new left wing party…’

i mean…could they be more wrong…?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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February 4, 2011 8:40am
jcuknz

Interesting if un-scientific survey at Yahoo this morning with 83% saying Smile and Wave’s “infamous Hurley i/v” was just a bit of fun. Sample was large when I put in my penny’s worth …. 21,091
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February 4, 2011 8:44am
dime

Anyone know if “The Daily” is available outside the US? tried to access it in the app store, with no luck.
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February 4, 2011 8:59am
Manolo

The chief warmist and unsurpassed crook Al Gore explains the biggest snow storm of recent times in the U.S.

If the planet is warming, why is a third of America locked in a deep freeze, with record-low temperatures as far south as the Mexican border, where the thermometer in Ciudad Juarez plummeted Wednesday night to a bone-chilling 9-below zero?

Self-proclaimed planetary climate czar Al Gore thinks he has answer.

“As it turns out, the scientific community has been addressing this particular question for some time now, and they say increased heavy snowfalls are completely consistent with what they have been predicting as a consequence of man-made global warming,” Gore write in a blog post.

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/02/03/worsening-winters-come-global-warming/
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February 4, 2011 9:00am
Murray

Phool is asking what other people are smoking. Why looking for a new supplier to give our money to dickhead?
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February 4, 2011 9:01am
Manolo

Some friendly natives go the extra mile to welcome visitors to our country.

Three British tourists have been robbed at Whangarei Falls, losing a large amount of cash and their passports.
Police say the tourists had only been in the country a week. The robbery was at 4.10pm yesterday and despite police cordoning the area, the three offenders and the bag were not located.

The three are described as male Maori teenagers wearing dark clothing.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/national/4617045/Tourists-robbed-in-Whangarei
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February 4, 2011 9:06am
big bruv

Idea’s to improve the Wellington sevens.

1. Do away with the Rugby, nobody gives a shit and it gets in the way of the party.
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February 4, 2011 9:09am
big bruv

Murray

Leave Phool alone, he is busy cooking at the moment.
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February 4, 2011 9:10am
Inventory2

Stuff the Sevens; we’re off to Palmy tonight with 15,000 others to see some hard-hitting, non-PC, fossil fuel burning petrolhead action!! Saving the planet will have to wait unrtil next week …

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2011/02/smash-hits.html
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February 4, 2011 9:13am
Jimbob

Manolo @9:00am. Even a child from kindy can see how silly Al Gore has become over his AGW claims. Give them enough rope and they will silence themselves.
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February 4, 2011 9:28am
MT_Tinman

People visit “Palmy” voluntarily?
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February 4, 2011 9:29am
Chthoniid

I don’t get any of my science from Gore @Manolo, but in broad terms, AGW makes two claims about the climate-
1) there is a detectable long term trend in global temperatures; and
2) short term weather patterns will be increasingly volatile as a result of this trend in global climate. Increasing extremes of heat and cold are consistent with AGW.
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February 4, 2011 9:38am
AlphaKiwi

Finally! RIP filter for Firefox is working for me now.

I filtered out just two commenters on Kiwiblog and I’ve got to say it feels good.

I imagine it’s like being constipated for a month and then finally managing to take that first dump. 🙂
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February 4, 2011 9:46am
paws

A bit of a chuckle here in Wellington,some maoris have stolen a waka off the tenths trust maoris and the Wellington city council and will not give it back.Maoris stealing from maoris now thats a new one.
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February 4, 2011 9:46am
Lucia Maria

Paws,

that waka issue is all over NewsTalk ZB in Wellington this morning.

I’m amazed that the police aren’t getting involved to get it back.
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February 4, 2011 9:49am
Lance

@Chthoniid
The people you are replying to have been told this many many times but continue in their positions.
About as productive as reasoning with JW’s.

If it is overly hot they say this is no proof of AGW (and to some extent that is true) but when it is overly cold they say it is PROOF that there is no AGW.

This topic has been done to death and they are desperately trying to whip some life back into their debates.

Yawn.
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February 4, 2011 9:52am
Manolo

The Luddite Celia Wade-Brown makes promises again. The building, a true eyesore, will open with a “ring-in” waka, whatever that means.

How much “koha” is needed to solve the problem?

A ring-in Whakatane waka has arrived at Wellington’s new wharewaka before its elaborate Waitangi Day opening ceremony on Sunday.

But the mayor is vowing to ensure the return of “Wellington’s waka” – Te Raukura – which the building was specifically built to house. Wellington ratepayers paid $100,000 for Te Raukura to be carved in 1989 and $80,000 for it to be rehulled about seven years ago, but talks to have it returned broke down on Wednesday.

Wellington Mayor Celia Wade-Brown said it would have been “lovely” to have Te Raukura for the opening ceremony.
“The council is committed to having the waka returned to the people of Wellington.”

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/4616097/Ring-in-waka-arrives-for-opening
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February 4, 2011 9:54am
MyNameIsJack

One more reason to be glad i’m not a catholic.

MPs have asked ministers to explain why £1.85m ($3m) from the international development budget was spent on the Pope’s UK visit in September.

that’s right, Pope nazi, head of one of the world’s biggest and richest businesses has cost UK taxpayers bigtime. this was money earmarked for the world’s poor, but it has been given so Pope Nazi didn’t have to open his purse.

Pope Benedict’s four-day visit in September was estimated at the time to have cost Whitehall departments £10m.

I wonder if Pope Nazi feels any shame?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12351583

[DPF: 10 demerits for Pope Nazi. I’ve said before not to use that term]
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February 4, 2011 9:59am
backster

LUCIA……..The Police will need to consult their in house Kaumatua and Maori studies Officers then follow protocol and hold hui with all the relevant Iwi before they decide to do nothing. Who paid for it and who owns it will be of little relevance.
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February 4, 2011 10:12am
Lance

MNIJ
I recommend psychological therapy for your obsession with the Pope.
And I am not a Roman Catholic.
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February 4, 2011 10:20am
grumpyoldhori

Manolo noticed you did not mention that pakeha who killed that old lady in her home by hitting her twele times on the head with a hammer, why is that ?
Now some of you extreme right wing types suggest that ALL Maori are responsible for a crime commited by a Maori.

But you do not rant that all pakeha extreme right wing types are responsible for a crime commited by a pakeha, why is that ?

Or is a killing by a pakeha on a old lady different ?
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February 4, 2011 10:26am
Fletch

MNIJ,

1) The Pope was invited.

2) Is the Church “rich”? Not really.

A snippet from a tourist visiting the restored Sistine Chapel –

I could not take photos in there because a Japanese company owned the copyright. The Vatican didn’t have enough money in the budget to restore the Sistine Chapel so a Japanese company did it in exchange for the copyright privileges. The Vatican itself has a yearly budget that is equivalent to the Archdiocese of Chicago, and frequently runs on a deficit.
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February 4, 2011 10:44am
MyNameIsJack

[DPF: 10 demerits for Pope Nazi. I’ve said before not to use that term]

Ratzinger was a member of Hitler Youth.

That, in my opinion, made him a Nazi.

Had he been older, he probably would have been a Brownshirt and then later, in the SS. Their bling would have been to his tastes.

Now, before the catholics come crawling out of the woodwork to whinge “It was compulsory. He could have been jailed or killed for refusing” I say “So fucking what?”

A lot of Germans DID resist the nazis. They were jailed. They were tortured. They were killed.

Ratzinger did not offer resistance.

To say Ratzinger had no choice is to denegrate the memory of those who DID follow their consciences, who DID stand up and who were prepared to do whatever was necessary to defeat that evil regime. It was a creature of the German people, it was their duty to tame it.

Ratzinger was a nazi then; I believe he would still be one today.
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February 4, 2011 10:45am
grumpyoldhori

Inventory2 is motor racing etc a sport ? seems strange calling a pastime a sport when women can take part and have a good chance of winning.
This is a sport, not girly so motor sport.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-f5pfBgpNE
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February 4, 2011 10:48am
paws

Grumpy im really pleased this piece of white druggie pisshead crap is going away for a minimum of 18 years Heres to his early death inside
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February 4, 2011 10:48am
Fletch

I know this is childish and a bit silly, but someone posted it on my facebook today and gave me a good laugh 😀

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0-rCjhxrUs&feature=player_embedded
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February 4, 2011 10:50am
MyNameIsJack

Sorry, Fletch, I don’t accept your spin.

Bankers’ best guesses about the Vatican’s wealth put it at $10 billion to $15 billion. Of this wealth, Italian stockholdings alone run to $1.6 billion, 15% of the value of listed shares on the Italian market. The Vatican has big investments in banking, insurance, chemicals, steel, construction, real estate. Dividends help pay for Vatican expenses and charities such as assisting 1,500,000 children and providing some measure of food and clothing to 7,000,000 needy Italians. Unlike ordinary stockholders, the Vatican pays no taxes on this income, which led the leftist Rome weekly L’Espresso last week to call it “the biggest tax evader in Italy.”

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,833509,00.html#ixzz1Cw1omIXK

And how much more did Roberto Calvi piss up against the wall? And Bishop MArcinkus?
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February 4, 2011 10:52am
Lucia Maria

MNIJ,

Just because, as a teenager, the Pope did not resist in the way that would have made you happy, ie losing his life, does not mean he was ideologically aligned with the Nazis. It’s a bit rich for someone who wasn’t in that situation himself pontificating upon the actions of a person he dislikes.
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February 4, 2011 10:54am
philu

“..This topic has been done to death and they are desperately trying to whip some life back into their debates…”

lance..a recent global poll found 83% believe we are effecting climate-change…

so there are 17% of you knuckle-dragging deniers left…

..shine on you crazy diamond..!..eh..?

you and act…(snigger..!..snort..!..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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February 4, 2011 10:58am
Fletch

MNIJ, you obviously didn’t go and read my link.

What about all the sculptures and paintings and buildings that the Vatican has?

Well, no one really “owns” them. The assets are “public wealth”. It’s like a museum, or the art that at Buckingham Palace – it belongs to the people. Bishop Fulton Sheen once famously said in one of his programmes that if the Catholic Church sold every single thing it owned, there would only be enough to give tuppence to every person in the world. And then what?

To quote from David MacDonald –

The big beautiful traditional Churches that receive the most complaints were not built with big bucks. They were built with the sweat of the brow of volunteers who worked ’till 11 PM every night after a full day of working their regular day jobs. They would do this for years until their community Parish was built. I wish I had that kind of tireless faith and dedication. That is the real wealth of the Catholic Church – the people, and 2000 years of prayers of the faithful.
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February 4, 2011 10:58am
MyNameIsJack

Lucia Maria (615) Says:

February 4th, 2011 at 10:54 am
MNIJ,

Just because, as a teenager, the Pope did not resist in the way that would have made you happy, ie losing his life, does not mean he was ideologically aligned with the Nazis. It’s a bit rich for someone who wasn’t in that situation himself pontificating upon the actions of a person he dislikes.

Lucyna, I may not have been in exactly the same position as Ratzinger, but somewhat similar, and I made my stand in the knowledge that there could well be very unpleasant consequences for me. But I took my stand based on the belief that what I was doing was right, and I did it without needing a Sky Pixie for support.

If you’re happy to have a moral coward as pope… well….
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February 4, 2011 11:02am
MyNameIsJack

And a bit truncated from last post…

How odd, I find it, that those who talk most loudly about sacrifice are the least prepared to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. A bit like Jesus, I suppose…
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February 4, 2011 11:05am
big bruv

Fletch

The Vatican has assets and cash in excess of $40 Billion dollars in 1994, please stop trying to tell us that the Catholic Church is broke.
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February 4, 2011 11:10am
grumpyoldhori

MyNameIsJack come off it, you are saying that those who tried to kill Hitler were thinking only of the poor bastards being slaughtered by the Nazis.

They tried to kill Hitler because Germany was losing and like WW1 and after they wanted Germany not to be occupied, they did not give a flying fuck about the Jews etc.

Before you rant about the Hitler youth, Rommel’s son was in the Hitler youth, they had no choice in it.
And Rommel was no bloody Nazi, he handed Jews captured in North Africa over to the Italians after Hitler wanted them sent to the final solution camp.

I have no time for the Catholic church but saying Ratzinger was a Nazi because he was in the Hitler Youth is plain wrong.
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February 4, 2011 11:17am
kowtow

There is a definite long term warming,no doubt.

That’s why there is civilization in Northern Europe and Canada etc

What made the fiords in Norway and our very own South Island,not to mention our lovely lakes etc?

Advancing and retreating fricken glaciers! Argh,retreating glaciers,the world is in peril…..as to Al Gore I watched his Goebellian propaganda and I’m still wondering where those climate refugees that he claimed came to good old Aotearoa came from! Oops they don’t exist. But that’s OK we expect politicians to lie.
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February 4, 2011 11:19am
Pete George

Chris Trotter: It’s nowhere near enough comrades.

The combined 2008 vote for centre-left parties (Labour, Greens, Progressives) was 41.62 of the vote. The far left parties (Alliance, Workers Party, RAM) attracted just 0.14% (3306 votes).

He’s right (on this).
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February 4, 2011 11:23am
tom hunter

AGW and Religion on GD – again.

Okay – how about this. Thank Ben Bernanke for the Egyptian uproar? It’s not a de-linked as you might imagine – Egypt and Global Inflation. I did like this quote:

And for all of those who are still out there cheering this on because it’s good for the inflation in our portfolios, here’s some global starvation math we can’t hide from – immediate-term inverse correlations between the US Dollar Index and three major global food prices:

1. Corn = -0.91
2. Rice = -0.90
3. Wheat = -0.85

Those are extremely high (and alarming) correlations. So the next time someone tells you that the US Dollar and the policy that backs it doesn’t matter to the price of the Number One food staple for 3 billion of the world’s people (rice), forward them the math. Risk managers like me wouldn’t be perpetuating higher food prices by trading them with a bullish bias if we didn’t fully expect American policy makers to let its currency burn.
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February 4, 2011 11:24am
Fletch

big bruv, as I said, does that make them rich? Lots of people have assets worth a lot of money but that doesn’t make them rich. My folks’ house is probably worth a fair bit of money too, and the farm, but that doesn’t make them rich. Auckland City probably owns a lot of public land/buildings but does that make them rich or help with the yearly budget? No.

You could say the same about Buckingham Palace. The Queen doesn’t own it, nor does the Pope own the Vatican. It’s not liquid wealth.
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February 4, 2011 11:25am
tom hunter

My god Grumpy – you made a reasonable and well-argued point that countered a piece of extremist idiocy from MyNameIsJackOff.

I think I actually shed a tear for hope and change!!
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February 4, 2011 11:27am
KevinH

An alliance of left wing factions would provide some light entertainment for the more serious voter. Who could forget the travesty of Alamein Kopu being pulled this way and that by her alliance colleagues, that was a comedic farce. No doubt we would get a repeat of the same, especially if Matt and Willy and Hone are involved.
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February 4, 2011 11:37am
cha

How did the church acquire the wealth, try Polo y servicios, the bastard son of the Encomienda system whose granddad was Dum Diversas.

“We grant you [Kings of Spain and Portugal] by these present documents, with our Apostolic Authority, full and free permission to invade, search out, capture, and subjugate the Saracens and pagans and any other unbelievers and enemies of Christ wherever they may be, as well as their kingdoms, duchies, counties, principalities, and other property […] and to reduce their persons into perpetual slavery.
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February 4, 2011 11:48am
kowtow

Don’t worry the people who critcise the Vatican for holding treasures would also be critical if those treasures were sold off to sick capitalist billionaires who would be the only ones to enjoy them in the privacy of their tax dodging Swiss mansions.

For the Vatican it is a lose lose situation.

As to the Pope his family were anti Nazi and he deserted his flak battery at the end of the war which could have had him shot.

As to the Valkyrie plot,don’t believe grumpy (as if you would) that it was undertaken cos they were losing.
Churchill makes references to the early anti Hitler plots in the German high command . These were thwarted by Hitlers political successes in the Ruhr ,Czechoslovakia etc.
One of the main plotters was Admiral Canaris,head of German military intelligence who was in touch with the western allies from before the start of the war! He died on a meat hook.
The secret war is not widely known and is worth researching.
A quote from “C”by Anthony Cave Brown,C was Churchills spy master.
After the July plot…….”Throughout the German Reich a total of 4980 men and women the remnants of the social elite of Germany were arrested and executed. The last flicker of military resistance to Hitlers rule and to the Nazi regime was vanquished eliminating any chance of an early surrender. The process of the nazification of the army was completed ensuring that the armed forces would fight to the bitter end.”

I dont have the reference to hand but from memory Canaris betrayed the Nazi plan to invade Switzerland so they mobilised and Hitler changed his mind. And also the plan to invade Russia but Stalin ignored it ,to his loss.(rather the loss of millions of peasant soldiers)

Lots of resistance to the Nazis in Germany but the west tends not to highlight it as it makes the Germans more evil.And as evil more of an enemy to be dehumanised and destroyed. All’s fair…….
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February 4, 2011 12:30pm
Fletch

I don’t know if you’ve been following it or not, but there’s been a huge story around Planned Parenthood in the US (our version is Family Planning of course). They’ve been busted on tape giving abortion advice to a couple posing as a pimp and his prostitute – on how to get around the law so as to get abortions for underage (14 and 15) year old illegal immigrant sex workers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9Zj9yx2j0Y&feature=channel

(Links at the youtube page of the 2nd undercover sting as well).

Of course the MSM have tried to spin, spin, spin the story: after all, abortion is one of their sacred cows.

Several days ago, while visiting the home of a dear friend, Andrew Breitbart, I was asked to view a series of videos which were intended for immediate release into the news cycle. They were made through the efforts of Lila Rose, a woman I had never met. The videos depicted several senior staff members of various Planned Parenthood clinics aiding the efforts of a supposed human- sex-trafficker of children. The pro-life activists who made the videos were posing as a victim of sex-trafficking and as a perpetrator who was actively involved in illegally abducting and smuggling little girls into our country for the purpose of holding the children against their wills and allowing grown men to rape them for money.

Needless to say, a deeply profound conversation took place once he finished showing me the material. He asked me what I thought the Mainstream Media Establishment would do with this evidence. I told him there was no way they would be able to defend such injustices. He said they would — that they would misrepresent the facts and attack the videos creator. He, in graphic detail, described what the media would do. I didn’t agree and couldn’t imagine such an effort could be pulled off. I explained that it was impossible for two reasons: The videos were clear and the consciences of the journalists and editors would prevent such a dastardly spin from occurring. He explained that the Left’s darlings are always above reproach and the media would protect them to the point of absurdity.

[…]

The following morning started early with a cab ride to LAX. The first Planned Parenthood video was released on BigGovernment.com and I began frantically doing media analysis. Lo and behold, Andrew had been right.
The first dishonest spin I could find came from Media Matters. They asserted that the video was a “hoax” and that Planned Parenthood had immediately contacted the FBI to report a potential human-trafficking ring. This assertion was patently false. The truth is that these videos had been made in numerous locations. In each setting, a senior Planned Parenthood staff member did everything they could to help the supposed perpetrator continue to profit from the raping of children. They even went as far as instructing the supposed perpetrator on the importance of making sure the little girls “kept their mouths shut,” lest a concerned employee would get nosy and report them.

MORE

I guess protecting the sacred cow of abortion is more important to the Left than the evil of child trafficking for sex.
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February 4, 2011 12:32pm
Pauleastbay

MNIJ

Grumpy is spot on, he had to belong. I have belonged to unions in the past, not because I wanted to but because I HAD to,, had to is i.e compulsory..

Forget the religious side of this, if you want play pointy finger, point it at Eugenio Pacelli – Pope Pius XII – known as Hitlers Pope
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February 4, 2011 12:38pm
starboard

Manolo noticed you did not mention that pakeha who killed that old lady in her home by hitting her twele times on the head with a hammer, why is that .

Racist old hori…
No doubt the scumbag has some Ngai something-or-rather in him.
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February 4, 2011 12:43pm
big bruv

Fletch

The catholic church has plenty of ready cash tucked away, as you well know, the catholic church is supposed to be the church of/for the poor.

Pope John Paul the first was going to do something about returning the wealth to the people and returning the church to one for/of the poor.

We all know what happened to him.

I doubt there is a more corrupt organisation on the face of this earth than the catholic church.
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February 4, 2011 12:48pm
Lucia Maria

PaulEB,

Forget the religious side of this, if you want play pointy finger, point it at Eugenio Pacelli – Pope Pius XII – known as Hitlers Pope

Dead men cannot defend themselves. “Hitler’s Pope” only became so after Pius XII died through a Soviet inspired play called “The Deputy”. The Soviets needed to destroy the moral authority of the Popes in the West, and smearing a very good, holy man was one of the ways. More recently, they tried to have JPII shot – bullet almost killed him.
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February 4, 2011 12:53pm
Fletch

Pauleastbay – only he was not “Hitler’s Pope” – I have lost count of the times I’ve had to defend this – but it just isn’t true.

It always angers me when I see revisionist rubbish being brought up like this

Here is what the New York Times published in an editorial Christmas Day 1941 –

The New York Times, Christmas Day, 1941: “The voice of Pius XII is the only voice in the silence and darkness that developed in Europe this Christmas . . . He is the only ruler left on the continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all.”

And Einstein (a Jew) says in the December 1940 issue of Time magazine –

Albert Einstein (December 1940 edition of Time): “Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then, I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they like the universities were silenced in a few short weeks… Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone had had the courage and intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced to confess that what I had once despised I now praise unreservedly.” (After the war Einstein wrote, “Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty.”)

Adolph Eichmann, Nazi SS Lieutenant Colonel:

In early 2000 the government of Israel, after nearly 40 years, released the diaries of Eichmann who had been executed in 1962 “for crimes against the Jewish people and against humanity.” Eichmann wrote of the deportation of Jews from Rome and that the Vatican “vigorously protested the arrest of Jews, requesting the interruption of such action; on the contrary, the Pope would denounce it publicly.”

In fact, the greatest defenders of the Pope – those who spoke in praise of him – are Jews
I could fill this page with quotes from them, but here are some –

Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli: “What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts….Priests and even prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism. Volumes could be written on the multiform works of Pius XII and the countless priests, religious and laity who stood with him throughout the world during the war. No hero, in all of history, was more militant, more fought against, none more heroic, than Pius XII in pursuing the works of true charity…and thus on behalf of all the people of God.”
– he later converted to Catholicism, taking the Pope’s name as his Confirmation name.

Grand Rabbi of Jerusalem, Dr. Isaac Herzog (February 29, 1944): “The people of Israel will never forget what his Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundation of true civilization are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history. Which is living proof of divine Providence in this world.”

Rabbi Barry Dov Schwartz (Summer Issue 1964 of Conservative Judaism): “Many Jews were persuaded to convert after the war, as a sign of gratitude, to that institution which had saved their lives.”

Golda Meir, Israel’s Minister of Foreign Affairs, representative to the United Nations (first delegate to react to Pius XII’s death), later Prime Minister of Israel; “We share with the grief of the world over the death of his Holiness Pius XII. During a generation of wars and dissensions, he affirmed the high ideals of peace and compassion. During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims. The life of our time has been enriched by a voice which expressed the great moral truths above the tumults of daily conflicts. We grieve over the loss of a great defender of peace.”

And so why, after having praised him during and after the war, and even at his death has Pius XII got such a bad reputation now? Because of a fictionalized play called The Deputy in 1962 written by a German.
And people wonder why Catholics get upset by rubbish like The Da Vinci Code. It’s because some people believe the fiction and it gets passed on as truth.

If you really look at the history – I wasn’t there and you weren’t there, but if we look at the comments of people who WERE there – prominent Jews, the New York Times, and other publications, then Pope Pius saved more Jews than Schindler.
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February 4, 2011 12:56pm
kowtow

Oh oh here we go Hitlers Pope. Our host David Farrar has banged on about this too.

I like Golda Meir’s quote about the so called Hitler Pope . You’ll find it here.

http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/truth.htm
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February 4, 2011 12:57pm
Fletch

big bruv (8,094) Says:
February 4th, 2011 at 12:48 pm
Fletch

The catholic church has plenty of ready cash tucked away, as you well know, the catholic church is supposed to be the church of/for the poor.

Pope John Paul the first was going to do something about returning the wealth to the people and returning the church to one for/of the poor.

We all know what happened to him.

He died at a ripe old age after having accomplished a huge amount, including helping destroy Communism in Russia?

bruv, I’m sorry, but I can’t really take you seriously. So, tell me what the Vatican is supposed to do – give all it’s money away, thus making it unable to do the job it is supposed to do? Why don’t we ask the Queen to sell Buckingham Palace while we’re at it.

I think you’ll find that Catholic charities, schools, hospitals, adoption agencies, relief organisations (and on and on) do much for the poor and suffering in the world. Isn’t it true that you’d be against the Church no matter what they did? You just don’t like them.
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February 4, 2011 1:02pm
cha

So the apology and the admission of guilt never happened Lucia?.
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February 4, 2011 1:03pm
Fletch

cha, I simply don’t believe it. It’s revisionism.

Perhaps the Pope thought that issuing an apology for supposed injustices wouldn’t do any harm, but, in truth, I do not think he had anything to apologize for. As I said previously, the praise from Jews both during the war and after the death of Pius speak volumes about his character and the actions he took.

Some of the Jewish organizations that praised Pope Pius XII at the time of his death for saving Jewish lives during the horror of the Nazi Holocaust were:

+ The World Jewish Congress
+ The American Jewish Committee
+ The American Jewish Congress
+ The Anti-Defamation League
+ The Central Conference of American Rabbis
+ The National Conference of Christians and Jews
+ The National Council of Jewish Women.
+ The New York Board of Rabbis
+ The Rabbinical Council of America
+ The Synagogue Council of America

No serious scholar contests the evidence that Pius XII took direct and indirect measures to save Jews from the Nazi death machine.
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February 4, 2011 1:14pm
tom hunter

Since you’re here cha, I thought I’d take this moment to have a laugh at how yet another of your left-wing narratives has backfired – in this case the attempt to smear Beck as an anti-Semite: Groups Whose Quotes Used By Soros Group to Attack Glenn Beck, Repudiate Anti-Beck Effort.

Still, it’s good to know the left can be put into the pocket of a billionaire like Soros, and at such cheap rates!
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February 4, 2011 1:15pm
cha

And now, Benny the Popes regime reckons Marx becomes ‘especially relevant’.
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February 4, 2011 1:17pm
cha

Yet the ADL differs Tom.

On his November 10 radio show, Beck described how Soros, who was born in Hungary to Orthodox Jewish parents, “used to go around with this anti-Semite and deliver papers to the Jews and confiscate their property and then ship them off. And George Soros was part of it. He would help confiscate the stuff. It was frightening. Here’s a Jewish boy helping send the Jews to the death camps.”
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February 4, 2011 1:21pm
Fletch

cha, I don’t get it – what has this professor got to do with the Vatican, or the Pope?
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February 4, 2011 1:23pm
big bruv

Misleading headline.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4617875/High-value-state-house-sell-off-nets-millions

When I first noticed the headline I thought “Great, about time the government started to get out of the home rental market”, it was only then that I realised that the socialist National government had reinvested that money in more bloody state houses.

I wish Neville Key had asked us if we wanted our money back before he decided that he would waste it.
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February 4, 2011 1:26pm
cha

His article was published in L’Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper.
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February 4, 2011 1:28pm
Manolo

Just to keep GOH happy: more from the same violent locals:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/4618320/Hammer-attack-trio-sentenced

Common sense from the NZ Police: No charge for pharmacist in burglar’s death.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/crime/news/article.cfm?c_id=30&objectid=10704065
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February 4, 2011 1:31pm
Fletch

cha, it’s a newspaper. The Vatican is a country (albeit the smallest in the world), the same as any other country with newspapers. It’s not an official mouthpiece for the Pope or the Church. L’Osservatore Romano likes to take things out of context (the recent article about the Pope’s supposed changed view on condoms for example) like any other newspaper.
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February 4, 2011 1:33pm
cha

You swallow Gellers tripe Fletch but the Vatican’s official mouth piece takes things out of context, wtf?.
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February 4, 2011 1:40pm
bearhunter

” Pope John Paul the first was going to do something about returning the wealth to the people and returning the church to one for/of the poor.

We all know what happened to him.

He died at a ripe old age after having accomplished a huge amount, including helping destroy Communism in Russia?”

Wrong JP, Fletch. There was another one before Karol Wojtyla, remember.
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February 4, 2011 1:41pm
dime

i gotta admit.. i also struggle with the current pope and his past. not on imho
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February 4, 2011 1:43pm
cha

~~official~~ unofficial mouth piece
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February 4, 2011 1:47pm
starboard

I swear its true….

> > On a recent trip to the U.S.A. , Maori Party M.P. Hone Harawira (alias
> > John Hadfield, his true name, his grandfather was a pakeha) was
> > invited to address a major gathering of the American Indian Nations in
> > Kitimat, B.C. Due to his recent examples of how to inflame the Maori
> > Indigenous situation in New Zealand …
> >
> > He spoke for almost an hour, echoing his racist mother’s
> > doomed-to-fail radical ideas for increasing any First Nation’s
> > standard of living.
> >
> > At the conclusion of his speech, the tribes presented Hone with a
> > plaque inscribed with his new Indian name – “Walking Eagle”.
> >
> > The proud Hone then departed with his entourage, waving to the crowd
> > as he left. A news reporter later asked the American Indian Chiefs
> > how they came to select the new name given to Hone..
> >
> > They explained that “Walking Eagle” is the name given to a bird so
> > full of shit it can no longer fly
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February 4, 2011 1:51pm
grumpyoldhori

Kowtow, what utter bullshit, the German generals knew as early as 1933 what Hitler’s plans were about the Jews etc.
Until the Waffen SS got going about 1939 they had every chance of slamming Hitler against the wall and slotting him.
But, those general and I include Rommel in this had dreams of a field marshalls baton no matter how many Jews had to die.

To be blunt the Germans got off lightly, they killed twenty million Russians, men, women and chidren, should the Russians have not paid that back ?

Before you look at the Catholic church look at Switzerland, how many billions of gold do they still hold from melted down Jewish teeth ?
Did any banks from Switzerland help fund the America’s cup challenge that was crewed by Kiwis for the Swiss ?

If a Swiss bank did give funding there ought to be a lot of shame among that new Swiss mob.
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February 4, 2011 1:55pm
cha

Fletch, Spe Salvi.
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February 4, 2011 2:06pm
big bruv

Fletch

Re Pope John Paul 1, JP1 “died” after 33 days in office at the “ripe old age” of 65.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_I

“bruv, I’m sorry, but I can’t really take you seriously. So, tell me what the Vatican is supposed to do – give all it’s money away, thus making it unable to do the job it is supposed to do? Why don’t we ask the Queen to sell Buckingham Palace while we’re at it.”

Yes, if the Catholic church really did care about the poor as they pretend to do they would give all its money away, it is interesting that you claim that the Catholic church does any work, from what I can see they are nothing but parasites taking from the people they are supposed to be serving.

As for the Queen, well last time I checked Fletch Buck house was not a church.
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February 4, 2011 2:07pm
Bryla

Actually Bruv, old stick, have you considered that the Catholic Church IS Christ’s body on Earth and an instrument of God’s will. When God deems a person unworthy, they are filled with a deep and abiding hatred of the Church, and then led to the kind of unreasoning agitato so effectively displayed by your good self. This is to give you the taste of hell on earth that you’re experiencing now, to assist other sinners in recognising their need for redemption, and to give you one last chance to acknoledge and accept God’s grace. The choice is yours cobber. I’ll pray for you.
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February 4, 2011 2:21pm
big bruv

Bryla

When it comes to the Catholic church the only thing I consider is how corrupt, evil and downright dishonest that organisation is.

As for praying for me, well if you want to waste precious time praying to your non existent god then knock yourself out, it is no skin off my nose.

It saddens me that people like you waste your one and only life by dedicating it to an object of middle eastern superstition.
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February 4, 2011 2:31pm
Bryla

Out of interest Bruv, what do you dedicate your life to?
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February 4, 2011 2:37pm
Chthoniid

@Bryla

I think the notion that billions of galaxies were created for the express purpose of nailing a Jew to a stick, in the promise that anyone who says a magic spell (‘I believe in Jesus’) and eats zombie flesh, will get the chance to worship him for eternity, pretty much doesn’t merit serious consideration in this day and age. (With or without the Catholic Church).
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February 4, 2011 2:37pm
big bruv

Bryla

“Out of interest Bruv, what do you dedicate your life to?”

That Bryla, is none of your business, unlike religious types or bible bashers I keep what is important to me private, I do not seek to force other people to live by my morals or by what I think is right.

Give it a crack sometime, it is refreshing.
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February 4, 2011 2:42pm
Shazzadude

So, I see that “the party that shall not be named” hit a three year-high of 5.5% in today’s Roy Morgan poll.

Will we have a story for this poll like we did on the last one I wonder…
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February 4, 2011 2:45pm
Manolo

Palmy is getting more famous by the hour:

A pervert with a penchant for pastry has been jailed and banned from central Palmerston North after he was caught maturbating outside an inner-city bakery.

Steven Karu, 41, was also ordered to attend a habitual sexual offenders programme, after he was busted peering through a Broadway Ave bakery window at female workers, while “stimulating his genitalia”.

Karu had already racked up more than 180 convictions dating as far back 1993, with 29 of them being of a sexual nature.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4617669/Jail-time-for-lewd-bakery-act
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February 4, 2011 2:50pm
joana

From Lee Kuan Yew…We can integrate all religions and races except islam.
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February 4, 2011 2:55pm
Bryla

Chthoniid, nice caricature, funny even, but a long way from my understanding of the church and a life with faith.

Bruv, I suspect you have nothing in your life that you concede is greater than yourself, or to which you dedicate yourself in service to others. You might call that refreshing, but I call it empty. BTW, dodging the question always illustrates weakness of argument.

joana, Lee Kuan Yew ought know, he stands out as a very tolerant and inclusive tyrant.
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February 4, 2011 3:06pm
joana

I repect him and so do many other people.
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February 4, 2011 3:13pm
MyNameIsJack

Fucking hilarious watching the catholics defend the indefensible.

Best line of the lot from kowtow.

As to the Pope his family were anti Nazi and he deserted his flak battery at the end of the war which could have had him shot.

Coward once for not resisiting the nazis.

Coward twice for deserting his post.

Coward thrice for running away to avoid the justice that would ahve surely come his way.

Yeah, and I suppose he couldn’t have been shot BEFORE then because he was protected by a sky pixie? I reckion the world would have been done a favour if some Tommy or GI Joe HAD shot the bastard as an enemy soldier.

This just reinforces the absolute stupidity that religion forces a mind to accept.
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February 4, 2011 3:14pm
Pauleastbay

Fletch

Your credibility falls down down when you start quoting The New York Times, and Time FFS The NYT especially who have a history of just making shit up.

When you don’t know the difference between John Paul the 1st and John Paul the second you also take a beating there.

Fletch, The vatican is not a country. It is as says here …….Vatican City was established in 1929 by the Lateran Treaty, signed by Cardinal Secretary of State Pietro Gasparri, on behalf of the Holy See and by Prime Minister Benito Mussolini on behalf of the Kingdom of Italy…………..Vatican City is an ecclesiastical[5] or sacerdotal-monarchical[6] state

Flecth , I presume I am older than you you and will have a lot more whippings from brothers , priests etc. and I am a piss poor Catholic, but I do know one thing, if you are going to pontificate here be accurate otherwise you will get ripped to bits

Read – Hitler’s Pope, The Secret History of Pius XII by John Cornwell ISBN 0-670-88693-9 Cornwell is a Catholic, respected academic with no axe to grind. Wikipedia has a very synopsis of this book under Cornwells entry.

Remember, we have religion (thats yours and my business) and we have churches run by humans, and we all know humans are mongrols
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February 4, 2011 3:21pm
Bryla

Let me check that I understand your argument here jack… hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, stupid. Is that it?
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February 4, 2011 3:22pm
big bruv

Manolo

How long before Rex arrives and tells us that all Steven Karu needs is a good cuddle?

180 Convictions, why is this man on our streets?
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February 4, 2011 3:25pm
bereal

joana @ 2.55

Mr Lee is not politically correct.

That quote from him is a self evident truth that PC indoctrination in NZ
prevents many people from recognising.

Many who do recognise it are frightened to express it.

Very few in this country will debate the contrary because there is no real
argument against a self evident truth.
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February 4, 2011 3:26pm
Bryla

Bruv the dove, because God wants him there?
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February 4, 2011 3:27pm
big bruv

Bryla

“Bruv, I suspect you have nothing in your life that you concede is greater than yourself, or to which you dedicate yourself in service to others. You might call that refreshing, but I call it empty. BTW, dodging the question always illustrates weakness of argument.”

Given that there is no “greater being” then dedicating myself to a non existent god would be a complete waste of time don’t you think?
Again, I say to you that what I do with my spare time and how I help others in the community is none of your bloody business, however, I would wager that I do a lot more than you.

As for dodging the question, how can I dodge the question of God when he does not exist?
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February 4, 2011 3:29pm
Pauleastbay

And Fletch

Grand Rabbi of Jerusalem, Dr. Isaac Herzog (February 29, 1944): “The people of Israel will never forget what his Holiness and his illustrious delegates……

The above little gem in all your writing. Israel wasn’t even established until 1948 !!!!!
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February 4, 2011 3:30pm
Bryla

Bruv, the question had nothing to do with God, it was “what do you dedicate your life to?” “something greater than yourself” includes: the planet (I hope you agree this exists), the Galaxy (and other astronomical phenomena), democracy, justice, nonviolence, reason, community. Maaaaaaate, get the blinkers off, and try some thinking for a change. It’s refreshing, honest.
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February 4, 2011 3:34pm
Fletch

Pauleastbay, Cornwall has long been discredited – he’s not a historian, but a ‘popular’ writer and ex-seminarian with an axe to grind. You ought to check out ‘Hitler, The War, and The Pope‘ by Ronald J Rychlak, who teaches trial law, and approaches the case dispassionately as would a trial lawyer.
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February 4, 2011 3:40pm
big bruv

Bryla

The arrogance of you bible bashing types never ceases to amaze me.

As I said there is one cause in particular that I do spend a lot of my time on, but, as I said, that is none of your business.

I find it interesting that you talk about others “thinking”, that can be directed straight back at you, if you are as smart as I think you are then it is inconceivable that you can believe in middle eastern superstition.
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February 4, 2011 3:42pm
Fletch

Pauleastbay, Israel has been around since Biblical times. Look in the Bible. ‘Palestine’ is not officially recognized as a state, but people refer to Palestine, and Palestinians. So, what of it?
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February 4, 2011 3:44pm
Pauleastbay

Fletch , hes returned to the church, but what about all your quotes above, the don’t even make sense, they are talking about the church not the Pope, mostly, Golda Mier isn’t going to say, .. the pope was an arsehole after he died is she FFS.

I don’t know all the facts, nor do you, but there is enough to show that the church could have used its position to much better effect than it did,. this is about a human with all th e flaws, especially vanity in Pius XII.

Trial lawyers, please mate…

Im sure you you’ll get brownie points for blind obedience, but we live in a grey world not black and white
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February 4, 2011 3:48pm
joana

Lee Kuan Yew has a new book out “Hard Truths to keep Singapore Going.” Read more on Winds of Jihad.
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February 4, 2011 3:50pm
Pauleastbay

P S Fletch

The Catholic Church runs the greatest spin machine ever seen…. they have covered up a lot of crime over the years…

Its like politicians they think people will forgive and forget… no we don’t
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February 4, 2011 3:51pm
Fletch

Fletch

Your credibility falls down down when you start quoting The New York Times, and Time FFS The NYT especially who have a history of just making shit up.

Was this always the case? I think back in 1944 the NY Times and Time had a better reputation.

By the way, I am sure you’d be the first to point to the NY Times for ammo in Pope bashing (such as the recent so-called ‘scandals”). So, it’s OK for you to quote the NY Times, but not me?
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February 4, 2011 3:53pm
TimG_Oz

“The above little gem in all your writing. Israel wasn’t even established until 1948 !!!!!”

Yes Paul, but Jerusalem has always been a Jewish city…. It stands to reason it had a Grand Rabbi.
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February 4, 2011 3:55pm
Bryla

Bruv, you can’t find a single example of “bible bashing” on my part. Just a defence of my faith against bigotry and unfair caricature. I don’t believe in “middle eastern superstition” but in the evidence of my own life, interpreted through a story and belief pattern that has meaning for me. I’m not asking you to share that belief. I wouldn’t claim that all Christians believe as I do – clearly many do not. But I will continue to insist that I and everyone else be treated with respect. That can be achieved even when some folk’s bad behaviour needs to be constrained. I’m glad you have a cause.
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February 4, 2011 3:56pm
MyNameIsJack

And here’s one more reason why I am proud I am not a Catholic.

look at this POS.

http://jezebel.com/5750118/

Fletch, I gues he’s one of yours.
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February 4, 2011 3:58pm
Manolo

The brain drain to Australia continues unabated, while Key and English sit on their bums doing nothing at all to improve our economy.

Four thousand more people left New Zealand to live permanently in Australia in 2010 than 2009, although the outflow remained well below levels seen in 2008 and 2007, figures released by Statistics New Zealand show.

The numbers come against the backdrop of an economy struggling to recover from a recession that ended in mid 2009, with the possibility now of entering a double-dip recession, after a 0.2 per cent fall in GDP in the September quarter last year.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10704081
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February 4, 2011 4:01pm

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