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February 17, 2011 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 17 February 2011

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General Debate

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Luc Hansen

RN

Much more likely to be the other way round.

Given the demographic trends, secularism is doomed.

Just facts.
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February 17, 2011 11:13pm
Luc Hansen

What’s going on with DPF’s maths?

In his running poll on SOE’s, he has 491 vs 481 as 50% each, and that they total 987 when I get only 972.

Is this binary code maths for geeks?
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February 17, 2011 11:19pm
Hurf Durf

Bet you’re looking forward to that, Puke. A lot of religious zeal motivating the war to destroy the Zionists. You’d probably sign up.
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February 17, 2011 11:20pm
RightNow

I bet against the trend then Luc. It will happen, eventually everything will be diluted, fundamentalists on all sides will be squeezed out. The trend towards global peace will temper Islam. This will cause the ratio of rational moderates to crazy extremists to increase, tolerance will prevail, muslims will increasingly enjoy their freedom and eventually they’ll say to their kids (as my Christian father said to me) “when you’re 16 you make up your own mind”.
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February 17, 2011 11:24pm
reid

What we’re waiting on is the tipping point for secular prevalence in muslim countries as per has happened in western countries.

That maybe eventually but what currently looks like coming before that on a trend basis is a Muslim+?Asia? vs Western/Christian war, which could be interesting. It’s a long long way from that at the mo, but the trend has been building for a decade or so and it continues. In another two decades who knows what will be happening, on current trends.
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February 17, 2011 11:25pm
reid

It will happen, eventually everything will be diluted, fundamentalists on all sides will be squeezed out.

Why do you say that RN?

I can’t see it happening. Christianity is coming on very strong in Africa. The West doesn’t comprise the whole world. The reason people usually say that is cause they think somehow science and Christianity compete and that science will “win.” These people misunderstand they’re not even competing and fail to realise that every thinking Christian applauds science with enthusiasm because we see it as uncovering the glory of His creation. It’s only the people with no spiritual background who see it as a competition and they’re quite wrong indeed.

So I’m just not seeing the driver for the extinction RN. I agree the West is currently being badly misled and we’ve seen the outcomes over the last few centuries.
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February 17, 2011 11:32pm
RightNow

The transition period to global secularism could very well be unpleasant. However I don’t believe there will ever be a significant united muslim bloc that could wage war in any menacing manner. Their terrorist attacks are annoying like sandfly bites but they’re not in any way powerful enough to be a genuine threat to the rest of the world.
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February 17, 2011 11:33pm
RightNow

Sorry reid, to be clear I’m not suggesting extinction of religious groups. I’m positing that they’ll become a minority versus secularism.
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February 17, 2011 11:34pm
Luc Hansen

Hurf

Zionists will destroy themselves. It’s just a work in progress. And I mean that in a non-violent sense. Just like ACT is doing its best to destroy itself. But some suckers keep giving them sustenance – in the case of Zionists, its the US. That will cahnge.

RN

One thing I have learned in my somewhat long life (my two year old notwithstanding) is that self-obvious trends somehow fail to materialise.

For example, in my heyday as a surfer, so many of us (guys and girls) were going naked or partially naked on the beaches that I figured togs would be old hat by now. Boy, was I wrong!

You need to realise that the pull of Islam is strong and will be stronger as the planet heads into new conditions.

And that doesn’t mean I support Islam. It’s just the way it is.
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February 17, 2011 11:36pm
Luc Hansen

and reid, Islam is streeting Christianity in Africa for new adherents and converts.
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February 17, 2011 11:39pm
RightNow

Call it the new enlightenment. The things our ancestors attributed to ethereal sources have largely been explained by science.
On the whole people are coming to accept that we’re just animals, with no great purpose other than survival of the species, but we’ve developed a bit more than other animals and we can think creatively and use tools better. The concept of just not living anymore is now readily accepted as a trade off for the possibility that somehow you can pass on to eternal life in heaven.
I could just as easily propose that your afterlife is determined by the dream in your head when you die. The same fraught intricacies are inherent with either proposition, but one doesn’t require belief in a sentient all powerful being, that refuses to provide tangible evidence of its existence.
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February 17, 2011 11:42pm
Luc Hansen

RN

Islam doesn’t need to wage war these days. Its got the internet and a powerful message, not to mention emigration as a proselytising mechanism.

If that makes you afraid, you should be very afraid!

Cheers
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February 17, 2011 11:42pm
reid

Islam doesn’t need to wage war these days.

It doesn’t Luc. Some of its more extreme adherents do, but they’re in the vast minority, at the mo, until the Christians do something really dumb like stir them up somehow, which would never happen, of course.
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February 17, 2011 11:46pm
RightNow

Luc, the vast majority of muslims are moderate who just want to live a peaceful daily existence. They will continue to do so and ironically be aided and abetted by those muslims who have emigrated to western countries where they fully accept that their day to day existence is considerably better, more peaceful, more civilised, then in their original countries. The internet will only increase the spread of this message, and for the extremists to succeed they will need to sabotage the internet.
In time all issues (including Maori grievances) will fade into history. Think the timeline of slavery.
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February 18, 2011 12:00am
RightNow

I think it’s also important to remember that natural citizens of muslim countries don’t usually have a choice about whether they are considered muslim, compared to here in NZ where any citizen can declare whatever denomination they want. That makes any statistics about muslim demographics somewhat suspect. In a Mugabe gets 100% of the votes kind of way.
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February 18, 2011 12:04am
RightNow

PS Luc, you just need to know which beaches are designated clothing optional
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February 18, 2011 12:15am
Luc Hansen

RN

In time all issues (including Maori grievances) will fade into history. Think the timeline of slavery.

Slavery has faded into history? Tell that to Black Americans locked up in white owned jails! Plus, slavery is still alive and well somewhere in the world.

And has the genocide of Native Americans faded into history? Not to the natives!

You are in fantasyland about Muslims not having a choice. Overwhelmingly, people adopt the religion of their parents. By choice? Maybe not. Just by osmosis.
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February 18, 2011 12:41am
RightNow

Stop being so narrow minded Luc. The issue of slavery is still traversing its timeline, and I didn’t suggest it was all done and dusted, but specifically for the USA it is more advanced than Maori grievances here.
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February 18, 2011 12:45am
RightNow

People often ask me if I have any words of advice for young people:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL7EOauz6X0

“who wants to be the richest guy in some sanitarium?”
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February 18, 2011 12:50am
Viking2

Sorry Day for NZ.

Douglas to bow out of Parliament
By Derek Cheng
5:30 AM Friday Feb 18, 2011

Sir Roger Douglas entered Parliament in 1969 and says he misses the ‘club atmosphere’ of those days. Photo / APN

Sir Roger Douglas is hanging up his parliamentary hat at the end of the term in November, but not before firing a few parting shots at the Government and a lament for the old days.

“I have to think about the fact that I will be 77 at the end of next term if I stayed on,” Sir Roger said.

“I’m looking forward to watching my grandson play cricket, things like that.”

Sir Roger first entered Parliament in 1969, became renowned for the economic reforms of the 1980s that became known as Rogernomics, and left in 1990, only to return this term on the Act Party list.

“Have I enjoyed the last three years? Clearly the answer to that is ‘yes’ and ‘no’. I sit on the sideline, I believe I know what should be done, and that can be terribly frustrating.

“You give the odd speech and write the odd article, but that’s about the limit of what you can do.”

He said Prime Minister John Key had more political credits than anyone he had known in politics, “but he won’t spend any”.

“One day he’ll find all his credits are dead. And you can’t deliver unless you have policies that work, and we don’t.

The only thing he has going for him is that the other lot would be much worse.”

He acknowledged it had been a tumultuous term for Act, including David Garrett’s resignation, the rolling of Heather Roy as deputy leader, and Sir Roger and Act leader Rodney Hide being accused of bad judgment in using the now-axed international airfare subsidy.

“One or two cases, including my own, we brought it on ourselves … I handled that badly. Rodney handled his expenses badly.”

He lamented the camaraderie of the old days. “There was more of the club atmosphere. Government and Opposition members used to have breakfast together. We went to the bar.

“Now I’m sometimes the sole MP in there. They’re scared that the journalists will be up there and someone will say something out of line.”

When asked about regrets, he said: “I would have liked to have done a lot more in terms of social policy, the agenda we started in the 1980s carried through to health, education and welfare. There are regrets, but that’s life.

“I’ve just had enough of having to be in the House until 9pm.”
By Derek Cheng | Email Derek
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February 18, 2011 6:39am
Pete George

Reid at 11.32 pm: The reason people usually say that is cause they think somehow science and Christianity compete and that science will “win.” It’s only the people with no spiritual background who see it as a competition and they’re quite wrong indeed.

I don’t agree. I think most non-religious people see science as ongoing discovery and religion as a quaint relic of past ignorance, quite separate things and too different to be competitive.

It’s a hardcore of religious people that see them as a competition – or even more than a competition, they seem to see science as a threat to their beliefs, to their reason for being. Their only defence is to try and discredit science and cling to the less believable religious imaginations.
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February 18, 2011 6:44am
Pete George

Just what we wanted – another fringe party.

New right-wing party now shopping round

The party is understood to be shopping around for a leader who could help it reach the 5 per cent threshhold needed to enter Parliament.

Apply to http://reform.org.nz/node/33

It’s a good thing that they are asking and searching rather than launching with closed minds, but it’s a huge task starting from scratch. To stand any realistic chance of gaining a parliamentary seathold they really need to find someone with, or capable of winning, an electorate seat. 5% from nothing is unlikely.
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February 18, 2011 7:18am
bhudson

reid – 11:08 pm

I wonder if they can trade-in the one which had Hulun’s bum on it, Luc? If they were wise, they would have restricted her to only the one vehicle. I wonder if they did.

Luc Hansen – 11:12 pm

Inside knowledge tells me the answer is no, reid.

Just where have you been nosing around Luc?
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February 18, 2011 7:35am
Manolo

Who is lying or folloing others in this situation? Neville Key should tell the truth, for once.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10707055

Prime Minister John Key should have been aware of officials’ plans for the multimillion dollar purchase of 34 German limousines in time for the Rugby World Cup, months before the deal was inked, documents show.

The Department of Internal Affairs’ Ministerial Services division decided late last year to replace its three-year-old fleet of BMW 730Ld limousines with the latest model. But with the Government’s focus on cost-cutting in the public sector and ordinary New Zealanders facing hard times, the deal has been widely criticised.

Mr Key this week said the decision had “political” aspects and as such should have been run past him given his responsibility for Ministerial Services. But he says he only learned of it when chatting with his chauffeur last week.

However, the department has now confirmed it was not obliged to purchase the new cars and yesterday Labour’s Trevor Mallard unearthed a July 2010 report on Ministerial Services’ budget which outlined the plan to buy the new vehicles and would have been provided to Mr Key months before the deal was struck.
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February 18, 2011 7:46am
Manolo

What’s going on with DPF’s maths? In his running poll on SOE’s, he has 491 vs 481 as 50% each, and that they total 987 when I get only 972.

In all likelyhood his mathematics teacher was a Labour supporter. 🙂
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February 18, 2011 7:50am

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