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January 8, 2011 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 8 January 2011

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dad4justice

There isn’t a conservative politician within the shady ranks that infest the beehive.
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January 8, 2011 6:42pm
MyNameIsJack

Then why don’t you stand. dad?

Oh, that’s right, you did, and your party dumped you when they got wind of your demented ravings on blogs.
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January 8, 2011 6:44pm
Redbaiter

You’ll be right with Labour though Jack. The more revolting and depraved there, the further you go.
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January 8, 2011 6:46pm
dad4justice

Sorry MyNameIsClap I do not understand, obviously the syphilis is getting worse for you and your brain is starting to rot.
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January 8, 2011 6:49pm
reid

if you think big spending governments expanding at an ever increasing rate and enacting law afer law and promoting state education and welfarism, as all parties do, has ever been “Conservatism” rather than “Progressivism”, then you’re even more off your fucking rocker than I think you are, and that is saying something. Piss off. You’re an idiot.

But I don’t think that RB, why ever would you think I would? Honestly, it’s like you’ve never read anything I’ve ever said. You’re quite mental, aren’t you.

See there’s a big distinction between what normal people think about the definition of “conservatism” and what you think, and perhaps that’s your problem. You’re just not normal. You’re not even correct.
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January 8, 2011 6:51pm
nickb

Nats are conservative RB

In what possible way, shape, or form could National be called conservative?

Their spending policies are socialist, their tax and redistributive policies marxist, their law/order/justice system policies fascist.
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January 8, 2011 6:52pm
Redbaiter

“You’re just not normal.”

I’m not a victim of cultural Marxism. Never have been. Never will be.
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January 8, 2011 7:00pm
reid

I’m not a victim of cultural Marxism. Never have been. Never will be.

Does it ever occur that other people who don’t subscribe to your view aren’t either?

Or is that just impossible?

In what possible way, shape, or form could National be called conservative?

Er. They implement policies designed to conserve not erode our way of life? Possibly some National govts are more conservative than others. Are you asking about this one, or other ones?
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January 8, 2011 7:04pm
Kris K

MyNameIsLegion 6:16 pm,

At long last, Kris Klux Klan has posted a bible verse I agree with
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him.

For your information, Legion, the “natural man” refers to individuals like you – those without the Spirit of God indwelling them. The same Spirit required to understand God’s word. But thanks for proving my point – you do a better job than I ever could.

Of course if you’d been honest enough to requote the WHOLE verse –

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

– others would see that the verse is self-explanatory.
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January 8, 2011 7:05pm
Redbaiter

“Does it ever occur that other people who don’t necessarily subscribe to your view aren’t either?”

Reid, when you claim the Nationals are Conservatives, you’re obviously deep within its clutches.
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January 8, 2011 7:05pm
dad4justice

The National Party is about as conservative as Peter Davis at the big gay out.
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January 8, 2011 7:07pm
Redbaiter

“But I don’t think that RB, why ever would you think I would?”

Go away Reid. You’re completely irrational and self contradicting. A time waster. You just said the Nationals were Conservative. That’s why I think you think it.
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January 8, 2011 7:09pm
Kris K

reid 7:04 pm,

Does it ever occur that other people who don’t subscribe to your view aren’t either?

It appears, Reid, that the only person backing you up at the moment is MyNameIsLegion. And with his skewed view of the world I would say you’re not in very good company. You are quite simply wrong, and that seems pretty apparent to most of us here.
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January 8, 2011 7:15pm
Redbaiter

“They implement policies designed to conserve not erode our way of life?”

Man, what an idiot. What policies and what “way of life”? We have a Marxist country here. Any policies designed to “preserve” that state are not “Conservative”.
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January 8, 2011 7:21pm
Redbaiter

Hayek- The Road To Serfdom

There is one aspect of the change in moral values brought about by the advance of collectivism which at the present time provides special food for thought. It is that the virtues which are held less and less in esteem and which consequently become rarer are precisely those on which the British people justly prided themselves and in which they were generally agreed to excel.

The virtues possessed by Anglo-Saxons in a higher degree than most other people, excepting only a few of the smaller nations, like the Swiss and the Dutch, were independence and self-reliance, individual initiative and local responsibility, the successful reliance on voluntary activity, noninterference with one’s neighbor and tolerance of the different and queer, respect for custom and tradition, and a healthy suspicion of power and authority.

This what should be “conserved’. The Nats have done as much to destroy those virtues as Labour.
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January 8, 2011 7:27pm
reid

Reid, when you claim the Nationals are Conservatives, you’re obviously deep within its clutches.

You see RB, “conservative” doesn’t to me have the same deep, almost religious significance to me which you appear to subscribe to it. A lecturer once explained to me that older people are usually conservative because they have more to conserve. That seems to me to encapsulate pretty well the base for every single conservative political party on the planet. That’s honestly about as much as I’ve every thought about the conservative philosophy. My whole life doesn’t revolve around them, as it appears, yours does.

Kris, you’re still here, thought you’d “retired.” How’s about answering Pete’s question, or are you still unwilling? Is this because it would fundamentally expose your flawed thinking on the Muslims, or is there another reason? Even if you’re not prepared to answer it, simple enough though it is, are you prepared to tell us why, or is that still “too much information?”
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January 8, 2011 7:52pm
Lucia Maria

MNIJ,

Why just today we have had two other miraculous conversions – Lucia Maria at NZ Conservative admitting Catholic Priests are not human and Ken Ham destroying the entire foundations of his faith.

What are you talking about? I know this is just a ploy to get me to comment, so I’m guessing you are really feeling your pain right now and the drink just isn’t helping. But seriously, just making shit up to get my attention?
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January 8, 2011 8:03pm
Offshore_Kiwi

Oh I see now. Reid thinks he/she/it is playing a clever word game, highlighting the difference between conservative and Conservative. That explains it; Reid would not know Conservative if it was right in front of him.
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January 8, 2011 8:07pm
Redbaiter

“That seems to me to encapsulate pretty well the base for every single conservative political party on the planet.”

Yet more evidence of how completely bloody clueless you are.
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January 8, 2011 8:08pm
Lucia Maria

Reid,

It’s very simple. National are not “conservative”. I know it’s all the rage to label anything not extremely liberal as “conservative”, but it’s simply not the case. There’s no need to think that there is a religion about it or anything, it’s just a set of principles that need to be kept to conserve that which is good in society. If you don’t keep with the principles, the conservation doesn’t happen. Ergo, the label does not a conservative make.
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January 8, 2011 8:09pm
MyNameIsJack

Lucia Maria (534) Says:

January 8th, 2011 at 8:03 pm
MNIJ,

Why just today we have had two other miraculous conversions – Lucia Maria at NZ Conservative admitting Catholic Priests are not human and Ken Ham destroying the entire foundations of his faith.

What are you talking about? I know this is just a ploy to get me to comment, so I’m guessing you are really feeling your pain right now and the drink just isn’t helping. But seriously, just making shit up to get my attention?

In the topic why homosexuality is incompatible with conservatism at NZ Conservative, you wrote

What it means to be human, is to have a sex.

Do you deny thAT?

As for the rest, I thought abusive comments were beneath you, but it seems you are infected with the same faux xianity as Kris Klux Klan
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January 8, 2011 8:14pm
Lucia Maria

MNIS,

To have a sex is not the same as having sex. I don’t like the word “gender”, I prefer the old-fashioned “sex” instead

s for the rest, I thought abusive comments were beneath you, but it seems you are infected with the same faux xianity as Kris Klux Klan.

That’s abusive?
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January 8, 2011 8:16pm
Redbaiter

“As for the rest, I thought abusive comments were beneath you,”

Ahahhahahah.. you unbelievable arrogant rank hypocritical numbskull. You haven’t got the intelligence of a garden snail. Typical dumbarsed thick as a brick knuckle dragging commie moron. No pride. No honesty. No self respect. Just utter human garbage. Thanks for the demonstration of just how utterly and hopelessly depraved leftists are.
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January 8, 2011 8:24pm
eszett

…those without the Spirit of God indwelling them. The same Spirit required to understand God’s word.

What, you need to be drunk to understand the Bible? Wow, I am sure you would get a lot of converts if you hand out booze.

The Spirit of God. What a great name for a Vodka.
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January 8, 2011 8:25pm
reid

Actually Lucia I don’t really care about “conservative” or “Conservative” and never have. The question I’m more interested in is the one Kris refuses to address.

While I know you’re not one of them, it’s interesting to me that all of Kris’s “Conservative” mates and ‘every Muslim is a terrorist’ fellow traveler is busy dissembling on his behalf. The reason I’m interested is I thought dissembling was a purely leftist tactic, but now I see it’s been adopted by “Conservatives” as well. Strange really cause I thought “Conservatives” didn’t really approve of leftist tactics, but now I see that just like the hated leftists, they’ll use whatever propaganda it takes to transmit their execrable message, and I expect also that just like the hated leftists, they’ll deny they’ve ever been using such as well.
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January 8, 2011 8:27pm
eszett

What it means to be human, is to have a sex.

Hmm, Rabbits have a sex, too.

Ergo, what it means to be a rabbit, is to have a sex.

I hope those rabbits realise that when they do their rabbit thingy.
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January 8, 2011 8:34pm
Redbaiter

Reid, you claimed that the Nats were Conservatives. That was bullshit and you’ve been called on it. You’ve also demonstrated in your flailing about that (in spite of pretending otherwise) you’ve never had a damn clue what Conservatism means. Stop the waffle and cut your losses.
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January 8, 2011 8:35pm
Lucia Maria

Reid,

Ah, you expect better behaviour from those that consider themselves conservatives. The thing is, leftists have developed certain behaviours as tactics, while as those who don’t use those behaviours as tactics are not necessarily immune from using them, ie, we are not perfect, we are sinful human beings who will succumb to our baser impulses at least some of the time. Though we may not sink as low as those who have nothing holding them back.

My opinion on “every Muslim is a terrrorist”, is not that every Muslim is a terrorist. But that the religion of Islam in and of itself, breeds terrorists. It takes a lot to make a person overcome the laws written on everyone’s heart to not murder innocents, yet Islam succeeds in doing that with a worrying number of it’s more strict adherents.
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January 8, 2011 8:41pm
Kris K

… and I wonder why I limit my commenting on Kiwiblog thesedays …
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January 8, 2011 8:44pm
Hurf Durf

Paul Thomas is a piece of shit arsehole, about the kind of person I’d expect from an Auckland University graduate.

That is all.
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January 8, 2011 8:47pm
MyNameIsJack

It takes a lot to make a person overcome the laws written on everyone’s heart to not murder innocents, yet Islam succeeds in doing that with a worrying number of it’s more strict adherents.

And your death cult doesn’t do that?

What is it about thst torture symbol you proudly display?

What is it that drives xians to murder doctors?
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January 8, 2011 8:49pm
reid

” But that the religion of Islam in and of itself, breeds terrorists.”

Yes but you’re a Christian as well Lucia and there is a serious fallacy in this argument, for how can a book, make a person strap something on and blow themselves up?

This is what Kris alleges is the secret desire in the heart of every single Muslim to the point he suggests that to allow them into NZ at all, and to those who are already here, one must require they renounce Islam.

This is mental.

Anyone who is religious understands the difference between the words in a book and the actions of a zealot and they are not the same. Why, if this is the case, then why isn’t every single committed Christian just as zealous as Saul? We’re not, are we. There’s only been one Saul, hasn’t there. But unfortunately Kris hasn’t made that distinction in his own mind, and persists in spreading his poisonous perspective, to the detriment of the innocent.

What is it that drives xians to murder doctors?

Exactly MNIJ. You may have noticed, not every Christian does this so it can’t be the book, can it.
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January 8, 2011 8:53pm
eszett

# Kris K (3,489) Says:
January 8th, 2011 at 8:44 pm

… and I wonder why I limit my commenting on Kiwiblog thesedays …

What, you don’t know? Well, maybe the Spirit of Kiwiblog is not indwelling in you. The same Spirit required to understand Farrar’s word.
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January 8, 2011 8:53pm
dad4justice

“What is it that drives xians to murder doctors?”

The insane prick that wrote this vile madness should be in secure facility wearing a straight jacket.
FFS what a nutbar!
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January 8, 2011 8:56pm
Redbaiter

“Paul Thomas is a piece of shit arsehole, about the kind of person I’d expect from an Auckland University graduate.”

You’re talking about his Palin bad-Carter good we must slow down on the roads stuff right? What more could you expect from a Herald opinion writer. They’ve never read anything outside the Washington Post of the New York Times or watched any TV other than TvOne or CNN and the only radio they listen to is RNZ. If by any chance they had, they wouldn’t get a job at the Herald. Hopeless.
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January 8, 2011 8:58pm
Kris K

Lucia Maria 8:41 pm,

My opinion on “every Muslim is a terrrorist”, is not that every Muslim is a terrorist. But that the religion of Islam in and of itself, breeds terrorists. It takes a lot to make a person overcome the laws written on everyone’s heart to not murder innocents, yet Islam succeeds in doing that with a worrying number of it’s more strict adherents.

Well said, Lucia – Exactly what most of us have been trying to convince Reid of for the last few days (few years?). While not EVERY Muslim is a terrorist – as Reid accuses me of implying – Islam encourages terrorism, especially amongst those who take its teachings seriously. And it doesn’t seem to take much to change a so-called ‘moderate’ into a full-blown jihadist willing to murder any and all comers. And until they show their full hand you can never tell exactly who is who. That Reid can’t “get this” is probably linked to him not “getting” what is and isn’t conservative government.

The “Pete George” lack-of-comprehension virus must be catching. Reid obviously needs to upgrade his firewall and anti-virus.
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January 8, 2011 8:59pm
reid

you’ve never had a damn clue what Conservatism means

RB I’ve never cared what your particular definition of conservatism means for it’s completely irrelevant to daily life as far as I can see from the impact or lack of it you make. I understand the definition of a conservative as far as I need to and it works for me so far, in that I can use my analysis to make predictions which actually do in fact happen and that for me is the only reason I give a shit.

As far as I can see, you’d go OK in some pol studies dept somewhere maybe in Northern Queensland, but as far as applying your philosophy to daily life in any country in today’s world, forget it, what’s the point.
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January 8, 2011 9:03pm
Redbaiter

“understand the definition of a conservative as far as I need to”

Yeah. About as far as zero. How about you stop preaching about something you admit you don’t have a clue about? It just makes you look more of a jaw flapping idiot who writes so many words here but in reality says nothing.
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January 8, 2011 9:06pm
Lucia Maria

MNIJ,

Those that kill doctors who routinely chop up unborn babies, consider that they are saving lives by doing so. And they are correct. Personally, in a society that hands out RU-486 like it’s candy, it makes no difference if you kill a doctor who kills the unborn, because it’s like trying to stop an avalanche. That mother that might have gone to the dead doctor to get her baby killed is going to go to another doctor to kill her baby, or maybe she’ll strangle it at birth and dump in in a bin. But, you know, some people think it makes a difference to kill the abortion doctor. I don’t, nor do I condone it.

Trying to equate Islamists who kill the infidel, because they are the infidel, with Christians who think they are saving babies from Dr Death is quite a stretch.
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January 8, 2011 9:07pm
reid

While not EVERY Muslim is a terrorist – as Reid accuses me of implying

The only “safe” Muslim is one who has left Islam; one who has fully renounced its teachings, its prophet, and its false god – IMHO.

All your words Kris.

How about you stop preaching about something you admit you don’t have a clue about?

RB how about you stop dissembling like the good little lefty you actually are. We left that topic ages ago. No-one cares. OK, fine. I understand nothing about what you understand about conservatism. Is it all better now?
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January 8, 2011 9:08pm
big bruv

“… and I wonder why I limit my commenting on Kiwiblog these days …”

Thank the non existent god for small mercies.
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January 8, 2011 9:08pm
Lucia Maria

Reid,

Yes but you’re a Christian as well Lucia and there is a serious fallacy in this argument, for how can a book, make a person strap something on and blow themselves up?

Is the internet making you type comments into this little box or are you choosing to do it of your own free will?
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January 8, 2011 9:08pm
big bruv

Hey Red…

1. Name the one thing your eleven year war has achieved?

2. What Ford did you purchase that costs $70,000?
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January 8, 2011 9:10pm
MyNameIsJack

No, its only a stretch in your lack of morallity zone.

Murder is murder, no matter the motivation.

Killing babies is murder.

A foetus is not a baby.

But you, like the warped, evil catholics, would rather see a woman die and leave 4 orphans that an abortion performed, eh?

And just like the evil catholics, and their NAZI pope, you think it OK that an 11 year old rape victim be forced to carry to term, rather than be given release by abortion.

I don’t.

A collection of cells, a parasite on the host, if you like, is not human.
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January 8, 2011 9:12pm
calendar girl

What a dreadful GD thread from soon after 2.00pm. The intolerant and the intolerable at unintelligible war with each other.
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January 8, 2011 9:17pm
MyNameIsJack

Jesusonapushbike, how did redbaiter miss this?

Surely Graeme Wood should be strung up from the nearest lamp post.

He mada fortune and then used it support the Greens, obviously to red, a class traitor.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/web-millionaire-bankrolled-greens-20110107-19iw9.html
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January 8, 2011 9:17pm
Redbaiter

Oh heck Graham the Auckalnd taxi cab driver is back doing his jack booted interrogater imitation. I’d tell you to f*ck off you useless khunt, except you’d probably run whining to Mr. Farrar like you did last time. All you dumb taxi driving bastards are the same. Driving round in your damn cabs with your fat guts and your know it all attitude and the radio incessantly on talkback. No wonder you’re being replaced by so much smarter Sikhs and Hindus.

Run back to Panda Sports with your dumb mates where you can yap incessantly about who took the most wickets in England’s 1949 summer tour.
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January 8, 2011 9:17pm
MyNameIsJack

Redbaiter (12,649) Says:

January 8th, 2011 at 9:17 pm
Oh heck Graham the Auckalnd taxi cab driver … earns money, pays tax and contributes to society.

redbaiter sits on his lazy arse, collects the dole and plots to overthrow a foreign govenment.
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January 8, 2011 9:22pm
Kris K

reid 9:08 pm,

Actually, now I think about it, you may have just nudged Pete George out of the No.1 spot for non-comprehending fool on Kiwiblog.

The two statements of mine you just quoted ARE NOT mutually exclusive – both can apply and not be contradictory.

For goodness sakes – if you can’t distinguish between so-called ‘Moderate’ and full blown ‘Jihadist’ Muslims then, BY DEFINITION, no Muslim is “safe”.

Thanks for totally stuffing GD today, Reid – Goodnight!
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January 8, 2011 9:24pm
Redbaiter

All that fat farting fool contributes to society is an excess of methane.
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January 8, 2011 9:24pm
Lucia Maria

MNIJ,

A collection of cells, a parasite on the host, if you like, is not human.

That about sums it up, doesn’t it. Any one who believes this, has no problem with defining out of existence of any person they want to get rid of. That’s how the Nazis did it. As one of the “sub-human” races they didn’t like, I can easily see the equivalence between the dehumanising of the unborn baby that goes on today and the dehumanising that allowed the Nazis to kill those they wanted to exterminate.
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January 8, 2011 9:26pm
reid

Is the internet making you type comments into this little box or are you choosing to do it of your own free will?

Exactly my point Lucia. How come Kris don’t get it?
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January 8, 2011 9:26pm
MyNameIsJack

And your contribution is…?

You’re not a contributor, you’re a taker.

Get a job and become a full member of society.
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January 8, 2011 9:27pm
Hurf Durf

Carter was a useless failure, like Paul Thomas and JackOff here. The sooner proggy piggies stop trying to fetishise the dolt, the better.
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January 8, 2011 9:27pm
nickb

Paul Thomas is a piece of shit arsehole, about the kind of person I’d expect from an Auckland University graduate.

I was mulling over today who is the worst columnist at the Herald, and found it a harder question that most I have been posed in my life so far.

Take your pick. Tapu Misa, Brian Rudman, Garth George, Paul Thomas, Paul Holmes and countless dozens more whom do not come to mind as I would rather cut my legs off off than read the Herald front to back these days.
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January 8, 2011 9:30pm
MyNameIsJack

Lucia, why do you, and your fellow evil catholics, along with your NAZI pope, have more compassion for the foetus than you do for the living, breaTHING, humans?
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January 8, 2011 9:30pm
Hurf Durf

I can’t believe you forgot Matt “Brainbox” McCarten in that list, nickb. However, at least he wears his ideology on his sleeve unlike people like Thomas who hide under the arrogant pretense of being intellectual and therefore knowing best.
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January 8, 2011 9:37pm
Lucia Maria

Reid,

Well, not quite. You live in a society where internet access is commonplace. It’s normal to go online and comment. Your free consent to the comment itself is just the last step of a whole lot of enabling factors.

For Islamists, the book doesn’t make them do it (kill) in the literal sense of holding a gun to their back. But their society gears them up to it. There are always calls from radicals to blow people up. That’s how Islam has always worked, if you read your history. They say, if you want to be a good Muslim, you must wage Jihad. Read your history.

For the Eastern Christmas recently, there were calls from Islamic websites to kill as many Christians as possible, down to listing the churches and the times they would be used in order to maximise carnage.

And then the reaction from the head cleric in Islam when the Pope condemned the recent attack on Christians. He told him to mind his own business. This article goes into more detail on that.

And you think it’s just nutters finding an outlet, from what I gather. I disagree.
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January 8, 2011 9:41pm
reid

For goodness sakes – if you can’t distinguish between so-called ‘Moderate’ and full blown ‘Jihadist’ Muslims then, BY DEFINITION, no Muslim is “safe”.

Yes but this has been the point all along Kris, but you’ve never till now conceded it. You’re saying now you do concede it. So can one assume you’ll stop going on and on and on about how every single Muslim is a threat?

(That’s good, BTW.)

Good night Kris. Sleep well.

Nick, Tapu Misa, by a long long way.
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January 8, 2011 9:41pm
nickb

I can’t believe you forgot Matt “Brainbox” McCarten in that list, nickb. However, at least he wears his ideology on his sleeve unlike people like Thomas who hide under the arrogant pretense of being intellectual and therefore knowing best.

Shit, so I did. I think I might have mistaken him for an SST columnist, as it is hard to see where the Herald ends and the SST begins with people like Finlay McDonald, Richard Boock and the like over there.
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January 8, 2011 9:46pm
Hurf Durf

Meanwhile, from the UK, a brief reminder to Shane Jones et al what will happen if they don’t keep their hands out of their trousers:

Chaytor, 61, became the first politician to be convicted and sentenced over the MPs’ expenses scandal revealed by the Daily Telegraph.

The judge said the scandal had angered the public and “shaken public confidence in the legislature”.

Chaytor submitted bogus invoices to support claims totalling £22,650 for IT services and renting homes in London and his Bury North constituency.
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January 8, 2011 9:52pm
Thrash Cardiom

“Those who think that Muslim countries and pro-terrorist attitudes go hand-in-hand might be shocked by new polling research: Americans are more approving of terrorist attacks against civilians than any major Muslim country except for Nigeria.”

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0223/p09s01-coop.html

When a percentage of Muslims support civilian casualties, it’s called an internal threat and terrorism. When an even higher percentage of Americans support intentionally attacking civilians, what do we call it?

http://www.prosebeforehos.com/international-relations/05/31/when-a-percentage-of-muslims-support-civilian-casualties-its-called-an-internal-threat-and-terrorism-when-an-even-higher-percentage-of-americans-support-intentionally-attacking-civilians-what-do/
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January 9, 2011 7:21am

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"Seymour is only doing openly what M?ori nationalists and their Pakeha allies have been doing, quietly for the past 50 years."
Not PC
Do the KCs believe in democracy
Utopia
More young offenders will get boot camp, bus drivers will get some protection – and there’s relief for southern farmers
Point of Order
Your Cheatin’ Ballot III: Pennsylvania Right Now
No Minister
Sowell says
Hompaddock
New Zealand government urged to back ICC arrest warrants for Israeli leaders without equivocation
The Daily Blog
Open mike 22/11/2024
The Standard
The transgender agenda sunk Kamala
Bob McCoskrie's McBlog
SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT
No Punches Pulled (Bob Jones)
What does “reciprocity” mean in New Zealand laws?
Croaking Cassandra
A Day of Reckoning
NZCPR
Media Link: “A View from Afar” on the US elections.
Kiwipolitico
This will not end well
Offsetting Behaviour
Top 14 Predictions for Round 10
Stats Chat
Tory Whanau may have to sell Wellington mayoralty to make ends meet
The Civilian
The Accidental Engagement
Imperator Fish
Making this movie might have been a mistake
Liam Hehir
Why I am retiring from political blogging
Kiwi FireWalker
Angie Warren-Clark: Meet the Newbies
Dan Moskovitz

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