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January 13, 2011 9:17am by David Farrar

General Debate 13 January 2011

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big bruv

“I tell what bigblouse fag I am not angry”

Ha ha…every comment you make is tainted with hatred and anger, you often threaten physical violence and your latest little thing seems to be sending me emails telling me how much you want to meet me so you can “bash some sense into me”.

As for the face to face debate….what on earth do you think I would want to talk with you about?
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January 13, 2011 7:55pm
MyNameIsJack

Don’t bother BB, he never shows up. I know, I’ve waited for him a few times.

Petie, how about a meet up tomorrow? 12:45, Tasty Bakery, Sydenham. Wear a red rose, so I’llknow its you.
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January 13, 2011 7:56pm
dad4justice

RIP big blouse. I have blocked your comments about me. Haha loser.
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January 13, 2011 7:57pm
JiveKitty

” * The letters of Paul: Paul does not mention the virgin birth of Christ and, in fact, Paul’s theology of Jesus as the adopted Son of God at the resurrection implies nothing special about Jesus before the crucifixion and therefore nothing special about Jesus’ birth
* The Gospel of Mark: Not only does Mark not mention the virgin birth of Jesus but Jesus’ family thinks that Jesus is out of his mind and they do not believe him to be the Son of God, implying that nothing unusual happened during Jesus’ childhood to signify his position as the Messiah
* The Gospels of Matthew and Luke: Matthew’s and Luke’s birth accounts contain similar elements (genealogies, the revelation of Jesus birth, Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem but life in Nazareth) but Matthew and Luke approach those situations in different ways. It is obvious that Matthew and Luke seek to harmonize Jesus’ life with Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah (i.e. being born in Bethlehem) but find different ways to do so.
* The Gospel of John: John does not seem to know about the virgin birth of Jesus but as the representative of the latest gospel tradition of Jesus, Jesus’ origins have gone beyond virgin birth to absolutely cosmic in scope. John is not concerned with Jesus’ Jewishness and does not seek to fulfill Old Testament prophecy in Jesus’ life.

So where does this leave us? Was Jesus born of a virgin? I’m skeptical. Not only is it medically problematic, but the earliest Christian sources don’t even support a virgin birth. And later mystical traditions (The Gospel of John) don’t mention the virgin birth either. The only accounts that talk about the virgin birth of Jesus (Matthew and Luke) have some major discrepancies between them because they are obviously trying to create a story from scratch according to some Old Testament specifications for the coming Messiah. Of course the biggest prophecy they sought to fulfill in Jesus was the virgin birth of the Messiah, a tradition steeped in the translation clusterfuck of the Greek Septuagint which mistranslated the Hebrew word for “young woman” as “virgin”.

And with that, my fellow doubters, I hope you have been enlightened to the evolution of Jesus and religion. Just as modern Christians adapt their arguments and theology in the face of new evidence (“Intelligent Design” comes to mind), ancient Christians also adapted their message to different audiences and in the face of new challenges. So when you meet someone who claims to love Jesus, worship Jesus, and bask in the saving power of Jesus, I want you to explain the evolution of Jesus in the Bible and ask them this question:

Which Jesus?”

http://undergroundskeptic.tumblr.com/post/2618274791/twelve-the-evolution-of-jesus

Keep on with the apologetics.
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January 13, 2011 7:57pm
big bruv

MNIJ

Really?..according to D4J his pals the cops will even come along to provide security….

Of course he could be telling lies again….
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January 13, 2011 8:01pm
dad4justice

MyNameisbigfagblousewiththeJack;sydenham policestation would be better, you know about the malicious phone calls to Alex and all that needs to be sorted asap. Midday c### see you there eh? Do you want the complaint reference?
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January 13, 2011 8:03pm
MyNameIsJack

You mean like the bikers he sent around to “pay me a visit”?

And his “sons” who are going to “teach me a lesson”?

Yep, just like Jesus, figments of Peties imagination.

(Of course, one time I did ask him to meet and gave him the address of a Police Station – the phukwit went in and asked for me. 🙂
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January 13, 2011 8:03pm
MyNameIsJack

No, NOT midday, 1245. And at Tasty Bakery. I work across the road.
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January 13, 2011 8:04pm
Shunda barunda

It’s 90% “filling in the gaps”, and people fill it with assumptions and what they would like to believe.

Except you of course.
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January 13, 2011 8:06pm
big bruv

Will this “Alex” be able to deal with the numerous threatening emails you have been sending me D4J?
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January 13, 2011 8:06pm
MyNameIsJack

dad4justice (7,124) Says:

January 13th, 2011 at 7:57 pm
RIP big blouse. I have blocked your comments about me. Haha loser.

No surprise d4j uses Firefux, not man enough for a REAL browser
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January 13, 2011 8:07pm
dad4justice

Unbelievable lies from a very disturbed blogger. I don’t need such lying psycho’s.

I always knew the internet would create moronic satanic monsters. Just look at the creep above.
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January 13, 2011 8:08pm
MyNameIsJack

satan luffs me,
this I know,
for the devil tells me so

Yes, satan luffs me,
yes satan luffs me.
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January 13, 2011 8:13pm
big bruv

D4J

Does “Alex” provide the glass cleaner or just the supervise the visits?
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January 13, 2011 8:14pm
Nomestradamus

big bruv (7,798) Says:
January 13th, 2011 at 7:55 pm

[@D4J] [Y]ou often threaten physical violence and your latest little thing seems to be sending me emails telling me how much you want to meet me so you can “bash some sense into me”.

Big Bruv, out of curiousity, I’ve just clicked on your blog link, and I really can’t see how D4J would have located your email details (on what seems to be Clint Heine’s blog for the most part). So does D4J = Dad4Violence or not?
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January 13, 2011 8:14pm
dad4justice

The sickness continues. Great stuff at kiwiblog.

Nomestradamus, big blouse is lying, to which I can prove, as my lawyer has access to my email accounts and he can verify big blouse is a lying mongrel c###. Ok fact. I have had enough of this bastard.
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January 13, 2011 8:15pm
Pete George

writers always end up with a “Jesus” who’s an exaggerated version of themselves

You can see an illustrated version of this in the Uffizi Gallery in Florence. Paintings of Jesus and biblical scenes evolve over century after century of painting, each new version depicting fashions and appearance ideals of the age, in the main aimed at pleasing those who paid the bills.
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January 13, 2011 8:17pm
dad4justice

Come on big blouse you vile lying creep, show me evidence of violent emails. You are one very sick unit.
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January 13, 2011 8:20pm
big bruv

Nomestradamus

D4J has had my email addy for some time now, he used to send abusive emails about once a week but lately they have become more graphic and a lot more more threatening.
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January 13, 2011 8:22pm
big bruv

“Come on big blouse you vile lying creep, show me evidence of violent emails. You are one very sick unit.”

Is RIP not working D4J?
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January 13, 2011 8:23pm
dad4justice

“he used to send abusive emails about once a week but lately they have become more graphic and a lot more more threatening.”

Prove it liar.

More lies to which my lawyer can prove in a Court of law! What is the beef with this very disturbed creep.
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January 13, 2011 8:24pm
Pete George

Some good statements:

“At a time when our discourse has become so sharply polarized — at a time when we are far too eager to lay the blame for all that ails the world at the feet of those who think differently than we do — it’s important for us to pause for a moment and make sure that we are talking with each other in a way that heals, not a way that wounds,”

…some corny…

“If there are rain puddles in heaven, Christina is jumping in them today,”

but worth noting…

“All of us — we should do everything we can to make sure this country lives up to our children’s expectations.”
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January 13, 2011 8:33pm
Put it away

shunda – “It’s 90% “filling in the gaps”, and people fill it with assumptions and what they would like to believe.”

Except you of course.

That’s right! I make no attempt to fill the gaps because it’s just over elaborate guesswork to justify what the jesus “historians” already believe for other reasons. If I were to write a historical Life of Jesus, it would be this long:

It’s reasonably likely a man, possibly called Yashua – very inaccurately transliterated in some modern languages as Jesus – , lived some time in the first three decades AD ( bible contradicts itself on the clues to the year of birth – during the reign of King Herod ( ended 4 BC) AND in the year of the Roman census ( 6AD ) ten years apart WTF?) , and the possible year of death covers a span of about ten years ( the tenure of Pontius Pilate). He evidently developed a following who spread stories about him, passed around as rumours among illiterate people, and they were written down between 40 and 120 years later by people who’s real name and relationship to Jesus is unknown, none of his words are recorded the in same language as he woudl have spoken, there is no external evidence of anything he said or did or that he was at any particular place, and frequently the four writers contradict each other. So here the biography ends because there is no possibility of firmly establishing a non-contradictory story from the material available.
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January 13, 2011 8:34pm
Pete George

Interesting ideas on Islam versus Islamism.

Are we to conclude that the deranged individual who killed six people in Tucson is analogous to the far-reaching Islamist political movement and its terrorist vanguard? And are Al Qaeda and scores of other Islamist and terrorist groups just “loudmouthed and rude and ignorant” extremists whom we only need to “work to try to prevent” from committing violence?

This misses the fundamental point. Terrorists who fly into buildings, blow themselves up in markets, wage insurgencies and dream of importing Iranian nuclear material into the U.S. are the product of something much larger. And that something is not an abstract comparative description (“extremism”) but a philosophy of government that unfortunately is highly appealing to millions.

That philosophy is not the religion of Islam, but the ideology of Islamism. Among its goals are the unification of mosque and state and the replacement of the world’s democracies, monarchies and other states with the model of government we have seen most clearly in Iran since the revolution there in 1979. It early roots draw back farther still to the wake of World War I.

It is actually quite possible to be a fundamentalist or “extremist” Muslim and not subscribe to Islamism or pose a threat to America. Millions of Muslims who eschew modernity do not concern themselves with forcing their wills on others or upending established governments. Conversely, it is quite possible to be an outwardly moderate and modern Muslim, and nonetheless support Islamism or outright terrorism. — Many of Western Europe’s recent terrorists fit this category.

Understanding this is key.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/01/12/arizona-message-sending-america-world/

But does anyone want to try and understand?
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January 13, 2011 8:45pm
dad4justice

Nomestradamus I rest my case. Big blouse has been caught out lying big time and anybody that associates this malicious dishonest blogger with the word credibility needs a lobotomy. Did the fool not think that I wasn’t lawyered up. Oh well I can prove he is a scoundrel lying piece of dog shit. bye bye big blouse. Try fot again.
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January 13, 2011 8:46pm
virtualmark

Manolo,

There are no counterfits of Aberlour Cask Strength 14 y.o. single malt. Utterly delicious.

Agreed. I had some as recently as yesterday. Amazing how a whiskey with nigh on 60% alcohol can be so smooth.
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January 13, 2011 9:00pm
big bruv

D4J

Just stop sending the emails and all will be well.
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January 13, 2011 9:08pm
dad4justice

“Just stop sending the emails and all will be well.”

I can prove that I have not sent you one single email. FFS stop lying you insane c###. You are the biggest fucking liar on the internet. My lawyer will prove you a scumbag liar if need be!!
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January 13, 2011 9:10pm
MyNameIsJack

dad4justice (7,130) Says:

January 13th, 2011 at 8:15 pm
The sickness continues. Great stuff at kiwiblog.

Nomestradamus, big blouse is lying, to which I can prove, as my lawyer has access to my email accounts

Hmm, whose lawyer has access to their email account? those not competent enough to manage alone.

Or are you accusing your lawyer of emailing BB?
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January 13, 2011 9:13pm
dad4justice

Oh FFS I have had it with this place. F off you deranged c###’s! All the lies have made me ill. It must be the 13th. Good one dark one.
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January 13, 2011 9:15pm
bereal

from about 6pm today onwards the bottom dropped out of the whole discussion.
Any body who has read back care to dispute that statement ?
You guys should be ashamed of yourselves.
How long can you keep up with this PUKE ?

Let me guess, you morons can carry this nonsence on and keep going 2morrow.

Same morons same nonce arguments .
Pittifull.

Good luck to your families.
JEEZ
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January 13, 2011 9:20pm
dime

lets hug it out bitches!!!

what a thread! dam!

bruv – emailed ya today, but no reply 🙁
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January 13, 2011 9:22pm
big bruv

Check your email Dime
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January 13, 2011 9:30pm
big bruv

“Oh FFS I have had it with this place”

Is that a promise?
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January 13, 2011 9:31pm
dime

thanks mate!
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January 13, 2011 9:32pm
Hurf Durf

Me, haven’t you lot been busy bees today?
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January 13, 2011 9:36pm
Hurf Durf

Me as in Do-Re-Mi, naturally.
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January 13, 2011 9:41pm
Nomestradamus

Hmmm…

big bruv (7,804) Says:
January 13th, 2011 at 9:31 pm

“Oh FFS I have had it with this place”
Is that a promise?

Er…

dad4justice (7,131) Says:
November 9th, 2010 at 8:28 pm

hey big bruv every reader or commentator on here knows you like shit stirring people who do not want to comment any further on here because of your vile and malicious rhetoric. I wonder what makes a #### like yourself tick.
I told you and Farrar I have finished here days ago = SO FUCK OFF!

Clearly not.

But seriously, Big Bruv, is D4J-baiting some kind of recreational sport for you? Is it too late for you guys to just, like, move on from your personal differences and stop fucking up GD threads?
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January 13, 2011 9:43pm
reid

Partial explanation for Queensland floods.
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January 13, 2011 9:47pm
joana

Reid.
A poster on an earlier topic linked to an Aussie article which blames the Greens..Peter Garret etc..After the 74 flood scientists made various recommendations for dams etc..They built the first one Wihoven but the Greens including Garret objected to other dams and other measures..so they were never implimented.
Garret is the person who wanted to take the Us Antartic base away from CHCH.
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January 13, 2011 10:03pm
reid

Further to previous
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOKT7r58mCg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGqd_03C4wk&feature=related
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January 13, 2011 10:08pm
reid

Garret is the person who wanted to take the US Antartic base away from CHCH.

Really? Thanks joanna. I wonder what Wussell has to say about that, since he’s an Aussie after all. Wussell, oh Wussell?

(Probably emitting thousands of tonnes of CO2 as he jets awound the world on his taxpayer-funded unbelievably long vacation while the west of us are back at work paying for it all.)

Good vid of the floods here. VW’s really do float!
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January 13, 2011 10:21pm
Hurf Durf

Heard about that, Joana. Peter Garret once again has blood on his hands. Funnily enough, I don’t see the media making much of a fuss about it. Hypocrite scumbags.
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January 13, 2011 10:28pm
virtualmark

Put it away,

It’s reasonably likely a man, possibly called Yashua – very inaccurately transliterated in some modern languages as Jesus – , lived some time in the first three decades AD ( bible contradicts itself on the clues to the year of birth – during the reign of King Herod ( ended 4 BC) AND in the year of the Roman census ( 6AD ) ten years apart WTF?) , and the possible year of death covers a span of about ten years ( the tenure of Pontius Pilate). He evidently developed a following who spread stories about him, passed around as rumours among illiterate people, and they were written down between 40 and 120 years later by people who’s real name and relationship to Jesus is unknown, none of his words are recorded the in same language as he woudl have spoken, there is no external evidence of anything he said or did or that he was at any particular place, and frequently the four writers contradict each other. So here the biography ends because there is no possibility of firmly establishing a non-contradictory story from the material available.

Funny, and pithy. But ultimately sacrificing accuracy in order to gain a laugh.

Critics over-do the “the gospels are contradictory” line. Yes, there are gaps between the gospels. But, none of the gospels sets out to be an exhaustive and complete biography. None of them are a detailed itinerary of Jesus life. All purport to contain only small snapshots of parts of Jesus’ life. And it is clear we have only incomplete remains of at least one of them (Mark).

Yet none are contradictory on the key matters of Christian faith. Yes, they report different events, and so could be considered to be overlapping. But I am not aware of any core elements that are contradictory. In fact it’s more the opposite. Four different writers writing on the same broad set of events, with considerable distance and time between them. But all very consistent on the core and important points.

That said, there are some apparent direct contradictions. Not just items mentioned in one book and omitted from others, but supposed contradictions. But AFAIK all have reasonable explanations and none relate to a core article of Christian faith. But by all means, wow us with your novel insights. Fair to say though that clever people have been trying to point out important contradictions for nearly 2,000 years and no one’s found one yet. But perhaps the Kiwiblog cognoscenti have unique talents?

Also fair to note that:
* In antiquities terms all of the accounts of Jesus life were completed very shortly after the events they report (less than 60 years). Compare that to, for example, what we know of Alexander the Great, where the best and most reliable source is written 375 years after his death.
* Rather than being illiterate people the Jews were very well read, and had strong traditions of scholarship, philosophy etc. Remember, the Old Testament had been available in Greek (which was the working language of the Roman empire, not Latin) for over 200 years.
* Just because something is written by someone whos real name and relationship to Jesus is unknown doesn’t mean it’s inaccurate. Pretty much every biography of a historical person is written by someone with no real relationship to their subject. It doesn’t mean that the scholarship is automatically suspect.
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January 13, 2011 10:32pm
reid

Fair to say though that clever people have been trying to point out important contradictions for nearly 2,000 years and no one’s found one yet.

Don’t forget the OT linkages to Yahushua as well. Those are critical.
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January 13, 2011 10:50pm
Fletch

joana (358) Says:
January 13th, 2011 at 10:03 pm
Reid.
A poster on an earlier topic linked to an Aussie article which blames the Greens..Peter Garret etc..After the 74 flood scientists made various recommendations for dams etc..They built the first one Wihoven but the Greens including Garret objected to other dams and other measures..so they were never implimented.
Garret is the person who wanted to take the Us Antartic base away from CHCH

Yes, as joana says, thanks to an earlier poster for that link HERE about how it’s actually the fault of green thinking that caused the floods. The same area was flooded in 1974 in almost the exact same place, and scientists predicted that it occurs in 30 year cycles.

They had plenty of time to prepare, building dams, but a greenie convinced the Govt that because of Climate Change there would be no more floods, so they nixed the dams and build (now useless) desalination plants instead.

Also, one town which may have been spared had a dam been built, was not, because a dam was not built because of threatening – a fish…

Queensland – you can thank the Greens for your current circumstances.
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January 13, 2011 11:03pm
RobbieBlack

Off my head last night, sincere apologies to DPF, Luc and all those that had to endure it.

I think I’ll stay off the whiskey for a while.
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January 13, 2011 11:24pm
Put it away

Also fair to note that:
* In antiquities terms all of the accounts of Jesus life were completed very shortly after the events they report (less than 60 years). Compare that to, for example, what we know of Alexander the Great, where the best and most reliable source is written 375 years after his death.

Alexander left a trail of hard evidence during his lifetime. There are coins of him issued while he was alive so we even have an idea what he looked like http://rg.ancients.info/alexander/tets.html . There are inscriptions eg http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/gr/d/dedication_by_alexander.aspx . There is not one single contempory physical trace of Jesus or any way to verify anything about from external sources. All you have is unattributed stories, many of them highly unlikely, unsourced and unverified.
Why is it always Alexander though? How about Julius Caesar? Two of his books ( De Bello Gallico, and De Bello Civile ) have survived in the original Latin. These are the actual words Julius wrote, no translation, no chinese whispers, no folk stories. There are letters to and fro between Caesar and Cicero, who had legal dealings ( Cicero was a lawyer). And so on. Again, nothing like this exists for Jesus, no mention of him anywhere by anyone during his lifetime.

“But AFAIK all have reasonable explanations”

including the two impossible-to-reconcile statements about his birth? Was it during Herod the great’s reign ( pre- 4BC ) or during the first census ( 6 AD )? This is not insignificant, because it suggests the census story was made up to explain why “Jesus of Nazareth” was born in Bethehem as required by prophesy. Fairly clear instance of a story being made up to fulfill prophesy. Rather concerning, don’t you think?

Yet none are contradictory on the key matters of Christian faith.

Because the ones that are more contradictory got left out of the Bible for that reason. You are reading the final edited selection from hundreds of different writings circulating amongst the various regional and sectarian groups in the early church. Doctrinal arguments were solved by leaving out the contentious ones and making a compromise selection.
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January 13, 2011 11:25pm
Pete George

Queensland is next door and there are a lot of Kiwi connections there so the flooding is very newsworthy, but at the same time:

Brazil flood deaths rise to 375

TERESOPOLIS, Brazil (Reuters) – Rescue workers struggled on Thursday to reach areas cut off by devastating floods and landslides that have killed at least 375 people in one of Brazil’s worst natural disasters in decades.

Stuff don’t have it in their world headlines section (it’s down under Americas), and you have to look hard in the World page for it at the Herald.
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January 14, 2011 6:31am
immigant

Stuff have nothing in their World Headlines. Must be a brezzy day being the Intenational news editor just copy/paste shit from the Herald and BBC news.
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January 14, 2011 6:55am
immigant

WTF. A sleepout with no lights and petrol stored in it. Why don’t they just call it what it is, a garden shed. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4540065/Boy-a-walking-fireball-as-petrol-fumes-ignite
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January 14, 2011 7:02am
immigant

Who was saying in the ‘Flyer’ thread that the Chinese will not turn to race based politics? I laugh at your naive comments.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10699542
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January 14, 2011 7:36am
KiwiGreg

@ Put it away “There are coins of him issued while he was alive so we even have an idea what he looked like” – well we have an idea of how he WANTED to appear at least. 🙂
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January 14, 2011 7:57am
Rufus

Pete and Immigrant re: Brazil

I noticed this the other day, and I mentioned it to my wife. I think the reason our “news” agencies haven’t really bothered with Brazil is exactly as you suggested – Queensland is almost next door. Far too easy to just regurgitate what they find on the Aussie news. Easy to fill papers that way.

I’d have thought the body count alone of the Brazilian floods would have warranted them some more front page space.

Shame really.
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January 14, 2011 7:58am
iMP

the fact we’re still discussing Jesus of Nazareth today with such passion 2000 years after the fact, I think says it all. He has such pulling power and nothing in his natural life can suggest why this should be so. I am amazed at nay-sayer’s convoluted explanations about the remarkable reasons why Jesus is so predominate (to split time) or the rise of the church across two millennia in the face of radical persecution and suppression (Judaism, Rome, Mao Tse Tung, Communism, Islam, etc).

Let’s remember, this was a hated and horribly persecuted sect by the super power of the day, think America verse a small sect of Morris Dancers in Oamaru. And we are expected to accept that somehow, this group rose to become the largest cultural phenomenon of history simply as an accident of timing or culture? Yeah Right. Something much more powerful at work here, folks.

Our own NZ Parliamentary prayer still acknowledges this…(pervasive).
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January 14, 2011 8:17am
dad4justice

Amen to that iMP.
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January 14, 2011 8:24am
Pete George

well we have an idea of how he WANTED to appear at least.

Yes – the term “warts and all” didn’t surface until much later, the first recorded account of it is in 1764 (long after Cromwell died). Painting to flatter was the norm:

At the time of the alleged instruction, Cromwell was Lord Protector of England. Lely had been portrait artist to Charles I and, following the restoration of the monarchy in 1660, he was appointed as Charles II’s Principal Painter in Ordinary.

Charles IILely’s painting style was, as was usual at the time, intended to flatter the sitter. Royalty in particular expected portraits to show them in the best possible light, if not to be outright fanciful.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/warts-and-all.html

When the money and the axe are both under the King’s orders then a bit of flattery could be excused.
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January 14, 2011 8:26am
ciaron

How do coins make Herodotus’ accounts more reliable?
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January 14, 2011 8:56am
Pete George

Money talks.
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January 14, 2011 8:57am
Ryan Sproull

the fact we’re still discussing Jesus of Nazareth today with such passion 2000 years after the fact, I think says it all.

Yep, his influence is 600 years less long-lasting than the Buddha’s, and always will be 😉
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January 14, 2011 8:59am
adze

From immigant’s link:

Our party leaders will then be talking with Maori tribes to also get their party votes for us to get at least six candidates as MPs at this year’s election.”

I wonder why they think Iwi will be giving them love? Tactical move?
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January 14, 2011 9:16am
Inventory2

re “Robbie Black” – could this person be the same persona as that behind Rebel Heart and Stanley Climbfall, last banned by DPF for eight months? Nomestredamus may have an opinion …

# Rebel Heart (249) Says:
May 16th, 2009 at 3:47 pm

Redbaiter (6162) Vote: Add rating 1 Subtract rating 0 Says:
May 16th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
In fact, these events are down to the degeneration of society that has occurred because of the ideas disseminated by amoral narcissistic left liberals like you, Borker and Rebel Heart (groan, what a truly dipshit name).

‘Sup fag. Man I wish I had a name like yours, reflecting all the red on your anus from all the assfucking aye.

[DPF: 35 demerits]

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/05/jesus_weeps.html
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January 14, 2011 9:24am
KiwiGreg

@ Ryan EXACTLY and Mohammed and Baha’ullah and Jim Jones
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January 14, 2011 9:27am
KiwiGreg

Shoot how could I forget L Ron Hubbard. And we KNOW he’s real.
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January 14, 2011 9:28am
lofty

re RobbieBlack, at least he had the decency to apologise at 11;24 last night, mind you he needed to.
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January 14, 2011 9:41am
virtualmark

Put it away,

Re Alexander and Ceasar. Remember these were the rulers of their day. Not surprisingly their deeds, pronouncements & writings were going to be more likely to be recorded and preserved than the deeds, pronouncements and writings of a “commoner” in a further-flung part of the known world. So it should be no surprise that we have Ceasar’s books and letters. Ask yourself, do we have a more complete record of Queen Victoria’s writings or of “Sarah Smith from Clapham, b1840-d1885”?

That said, I’d contend we have a far more complete and robust record of Jesus’ existence than we do of any other “commoner” from the first century. But yes, not surprisingly the people who wrote about him first were his adherents and followers. He first gets attention from independent third-parties, like Josephus, only later once his teachings have proven their endurance and attraction.

That is in no way surprising, and in no way invalidates what was recorded about him. It is exactly what we should expect to see.

Re the birth dating. Sure, this has been a debate for nigh-on 2,000 years. I have some good material on that debate at home, but I’m at work at the moment.

AFAIK all serious theologians place the birth of Jesus between 7BC and 4BC. Luke says the birth coincided with a widespread census Augustus decreed and that Quirinius ran while hegemon (note, not Governor, as is often-mistranslated) of Syria. Josephus says Quirinius was Governor of Syria when he ran such a census in 6ADish.

Now it’s quite possible that Luke got it wrong.

My own view is that Luke may be referring to the census Augustus ordered in 7BC and which is recorded in Res Gestae. There are indications Quirinius was in Syria around that time, as a military officer. And the governorship of Syria was certainly transitioning. It’s possible that in the lack of a civil administrator a military officer was put in charge of the census.

No one can be certain.

But really, no article of Christian faith rests on whether Jesus was born in 7BC, 6BC or 6AD. Theologically, Christianity rests on what Jesus did and said as an adult. And there is little apparent contradiction on that.

Re the “Because the ones that are more contradictory got left out of the Bible for that reason”. Well yes, sure. Try this little exercise. Scroll back up through this GD thread and count the number of comments you’d say were posted by total and complete wingnuts. If you were, for arguments sake, to want to make a high-quality and focused record of our conversation here, right back to Luc’s original post, then would you include the wingnut off-topic posts? Or would you clean the record up by discarding them?

I’m comfortable with the record that we have now in the New Testament. I’ve read and studied much of the New Testament apocrypha. I’ve sat through lectures analysing why various books were excluded. I can see the robust process the early church went through to get agreement. I don’t see any signs that things were excluded on a whim or without reason. Rather there was some pretty high-quality scholarship going on. I don’t see any conspiracy there.
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January 14, 2011 10:01am

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