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January 10, 2011 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 10 January 2011

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Scott Hamilton

‘the Frankfurt School (the mother of PC)…The theory is to criticize… ‘Critical Theory’ – which is basically to criticize everything to bring down Western culture The theory is that the way to bring down Western culture and the capitalist order is not to lay down an alternative. They explicitly refuse to do that’

Oh dear oh dear, more silliness. Just as Komata hasn’t read Cook, Fletch evidently hasn’t read the Frankfurters. Walter Benjamin, who is easily the most famous and influential of the crowd, was a Jewish mystic who insisted upon the necessity of utopianism to contemporary politics. His last and most famous work, which he wrote shortly before being forced to take his own life to escape Nazi persecution, is called ‘Theses on the Philosophy of History’, and uses imagery from Jewish mystical traditions like the Kabbala to argue against the ‘economism’ (ie, preoccupation with material, short-term matters) of the contemporary West.

The second most famous Frankfurt School thinker is probably Herbert Marcuse, who became a hero to the hippy generation because of his rejection of ordinary politics and his advocacy of utopianism. Fletch might like to check out Marcuse’s book Eros and Civilisation, which sets out a pecture of a utopian future somewhat reminiscent of that provided by William Morris in the nineteenth century. He might also want to read The Aesthetic Dimension, which is Marcuse’s tribute to some of the great works of Western literary tradition. Marcuse felt that the likes of Balzac and Goethe and Dickens should be read and honoured, because the richness of their works provided clues to how a future society might be built.

The third major Frankfurt School thinker was Theodor Adorno, who was so ‘politically correct’ and so popular with radical feminists that his last-ever public appearance was famously disrupted by a group of topless feminists. Like Marcuse, Adorno loved and wrote about Western high culture. Some of his writings on classical music have become canonical.

The comments by Fletch and others on this thread are compelling evidence for the claim that the internet has not raised the level of intellectual debate in our society.
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January 10, 2011 6:03pm
MyNameIsJack

Redbaiter (12,716) Says:

All that has to happen for that to occur is for you stinking cultural Marxists to go peddle your totalitarian crap elsewhere. We never had any problems until you showed up and started perverting our television mostly controlled by News Corp and the Jews and our films mostly controlled by News Corp and the Jews and our radios and our schools and our universities and look at the number of Jewish names in the Universities, are they all communists? and our bureaucracy and our government with your barbarian doctrine. Telling us what to say and how to think
something you’d never do. Oh, wait…

You’re ALWAYS telling us what to think. And that’s because YOU’VE been told by Glen Beck what to think.
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January 10, 2011 6:16pm
Manolo

More nonsense from the warmists: http: //www.stuff.co.nz/national/4525379/New-Zealands-glaciers-face-great-melt. Such alarmist prediction is made without telling the analysis’ methodology, the data sources, and so on. Shameful, to say the least.

By the way, I predict NZ will be invaded by lizard-looking aliens wearing pink tutus before 2100.
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January 10, 2011 6:29pm
Redbaiter

“Redbaiter (12,716) Says:”

Except I never said it.

More evidence of the stinking cowardice that leftists all subscribe to. I have never changed a message on this blog that was written by someone else so as to alter its meaning. You commies have no morals and no scruples. You are just lowlife. And yet you seek to govern us. A pitiful demonstration of just how deluded you are.
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January 10, 2011 6:30pm
Scott Hamilton

I suspect that when Fletch talks – or, rather, when the bit of text Fletch has found somewhere on the net and taken out of context talks – about the Frankfurt School hating the West, the reference is to Adorno and Max Horkheimer’s book The Dialectic of the Enlightenment, which is an attack on the Enlightenment and on Western humanism. Horkheimer and Adorno claim that, beneath its slogans about freedom and secularism and rational inquiry, the Enlightenment represented a new mode of thought that was in its own way as bad as the religious doctrines it aimed to replace. They believe that modern, post-religious European thought, with its interest in quantifying and calculating everything and its forgetfulness about the limits of rationality, was one of the ingredients of the wars and genocides of the first half of the twentieth century. Adorno and Horkheimer’s claims in The Dialectic of the Enlightenment are extremely provocative, and have never been accepted by more than a handful of thinkers on the left. They were not even accepted by many other members of the Frankfurt School.

Ironically, Adorno and Horkheimer’s condemnation of the Enlightenment has been far more attractive to socially conservative intellectuals, like the current head of the Catholic church, than it has been to the left. Ratzinger was certainly acquainted with Adorno in the ’60s, when they were both opponents of the student radicals who were asserting themselves on German campuses, and he appears to be heavily influenced by Martin Heidegger, whose ideas about the decline of the West are very similar to those expressed in The Dialectic of Enlightenment. I blogged about this a while back:
http://readingthemaps.blogspot.com/2009/10/is-pope-marxist.html
[Note to the skim-reading brigade: the title of the post is a joke]
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January 10, 2011 6:32pm
Manolo

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4525379/New-Zealands-glaciers-face-great-melt
Apologies for the mistake in providing the link.
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January 10, 2011 6:35pm
Pete George

Scott, Fletch is a regular member Cherry Pickers Anonymous.
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January 10, 2011 6:42pm
Thrash Cardiom

Such alarmist prediction is made without telling the analysis’ methodology, the data sources, and so on. Shameful, to say the least.

You are complaining about this information not being in an article in an online news service. Perhaps you should get a copy of this weeks Nature Geoscience and see if the information is actually contained in the actual published research.

The research, published in Nature Geoscience this week,
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January 10, 2011 6:48pm
Fletch

Scott, I’m well aware of Marcuse et al – he who came to America from Frankfurt and stayed. he’s one of the instigators if the hippy movement in the 60s and why just about every American University is steeped in PC and cultrual Marxism. You can read about the cases going on in Universities HERE. No such thing as political expression any more there.

One of Marcuse’s books was the key book. It virtually became the bible of the SDS and the student rebels of the 60s. That book was Eros and Civilization. Marcuse argues that under a capitalistic order (he downplays the Marxism very strongly here, it is subtitled, A Philosophical Inquiry into Freud, but the framework is Marxist), repression is the essence of that order and that gives us the person Freud describes – the person with all the hang-ups, the neuroses, because his sexual instincts are repressed. We can envision a future, if we can only destroy this existing oppressive order, in which we liberate eros, we liberate libido, in which we have a world of “polymorphous perversity,” in which you can “do you own thing.” And by the way, in that world there will no longer be work, only play. What a wonderful message for the radicals of the mid-60s! They’re students, they’re baby-boomers, and they’ve grown up never having to worry about anything except eventually having to get a job. And here is a guy writing in a way they can easily follow. He doesn’t require them to read a lot of heavy Marxism and tells them everything they want to hear which is essentially, “Do your own thing,” “If it feels good do it,” and “You never have to go to work.” By the way, Marcuse is also the man who creates the phrase, “Make love, not war.” Coming back to the situation people face on campus, Marcuse defines “liberating tolerance” as intolerance for anything coming from the Right and tolerance for anything coming from the Left. Marcuse joined the Frankfurt School, in 1932 (if I remember right). So, all of this goes back to the 1930s.
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January 10, 2011 6:55pm
Fletch

Pete, anyone who doubts that Political Correctness stems from the Frankfurt School and the cultural Marxists is very much mistaken. It didn’t just grow from nowhere.
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January 10, 2011 6:57pm
Pete George

That quote is featured in: Haters of Herbert Marcuse (the “personification of ‘True Evil’, as one writer put it).

http://www.marcuse.org/herbert/booksabout/haters/haters.htm
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January 10, 2011 7:12pm
Scott Hamilton

Fletch, can you honestly say you’ve read a book by any of the dozen or so thinkers associated with the two generations of the Frankfurt School? Those thinkers range in themes and in arguments enormously. Adorno and Marcuse are in many ways chalk and cheese.

If you take the trouble to read Adorno, or even just find out some of the basic facts about his life, you’ll learn he was bitterly at odds with the student movement in the universities in the ’60s. Radical feminists hated him and, as I noted, disrupted his last lecture.

Marcuse was much more popular with students, but his views had absolutely nothing to do with some of the claims in the latest quote you present. He was in no way in favour of showing ‘intolerance for anything coming from the right’ and ‘tolerance for anything coming from the left’. If you look at a text like The Aesthetic Dimension, which he published in 1978, near the end of his life and at the height of his popularity, you’ll see he quite explicitly argues *against* a lot of works of art created to express left-wing ideas in a propagandistic way, on the grounds that art should not be a vehicle for propaganda, and that he defends works of art created by right-wingers from leftists who would dismiss them out of hand (he talks, for instance, about Balzac as a man who had reactionary politics but was nevertheless a great writer). In The Aesthetic Dimension Marcuse also attacks a number of forms of art thrown up by the hippe generation as shallow and inferior to the great works of the bourgeois writers of the nineteenth century. He denies, for example, that the Happening, which was a very popular artform amongst the 60s-70s counterculture, has any real aesthetic or political merit. Marcuse never abandoned his belief in socialism, but he was always opposed to dogmatic or sloppy thinking, whether it came from the left or the right. He was fiercely attacked for this by some of the more hysterical groups of the ’60s and ’70s – the Maoist Progressive Labour Party, for example, seized on the fact that he had worked for Allied intelligence during World War Two, and accused him of being a police informer. It seems to me that if you’d read some of Marcuse’s books you wouldn’t make such silly claims about his views.
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January 10, 2011 7:14pm
Komata

Scott Hamilton

Please, Scott, re-read my post / reply to BB – I think that you’re missed something important (although everyone else seemed to have understood the point I was making) – namely that at no time did I denigrate James Cook. What I wrote was actually a ‘send-up’ – a wry and somewhat-sarcastic comment on current educational teaching in New Zealand schools, largely as a result of the activities of the socialists and their Ministry of Education Poodles over the last decade or so – the reason IMHO that James Cook is not largely untaught-about in New Zealandschools in the 21st-century.

And, FWIW, I HAVE read Beaglehole et al and probably actually know quite a lot about Cook, his ships, exploits and his crew etc, etc.

BTW – I’m also a Historian (seriously). . .

Thought you might like to know.
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January 10, 2011 7:15pm
joana

Half the EQC assessors in CHCH are ex cops all employed by an ex cop Barry Searle. This is corruption. What skills do they have? Where are the builders and engineers? The ex cops are being paid 500 to a 1,000 dollars a day. EQC officials have also employed their children who are being paid similar rates. Opportunists one and all and who is paying?? You are of course.
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January 10, 2011 7:27pm
Scott Hamilton

‘Marcuse joined the Frankfurt School, in 1932’

I’m probably banging my head against a wall, but I should note that the Frankfurt School was an institution, a sort of department at Frankfurt University. It wasn’t a political party or a secret society. The founder of the Institute for Social Research, as it was officially known, was a bloke named Henryk Grossman. He was a hardbitten, number-crunching Marxist economist of the old school, the sort of man who devoured tables of stats and had no interest in discussing culture. Marcuse and Adorno and the mob who got jobs in Grossman’s department had no time at all for Grossman’s intellectual interests – they were interested in analysing culture, although they came to very different conclusions about culture from each other.

Just as Marcuse differed from Grossman, so later arrivals at the School differed in their thinking from Marcuse. Jorgen Habermas, for example, ditched Marcuse’s radical politics and developed some of the ideas which have become known in Britain as the ‘Third Way’. In the early noughties Habermas acted as an advisor to Blair’s German ally Schroeder and publically supported Bush’s post-9/11 foreign policy. Habermas was in no way the first Frankfurter to take a rightward intellectual trajectory: Adorno and Max Horkheimer both moved to the right in the last decades of their lives. As I noted, Adorno opposed Germany’s left-wing student movement. On one occasion he called the police when he found that left-wing students had occupied the buildings of the Frankfurt School. Horkheimer became a supporter of LBJ’s war in Vietnam. It really is foolish to try to make a politically heterogenous collection of thinkers like the folks who taught at Frankfurt into some sort of secret super-radical revolutionary clique, but I don’t suppose the spectre of foolishness has ever deterred some people.
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January 10, 2011 7:31pm
Rex Widerstrom

Falafulu Fisi and Scott Hamilton:

Just wanted to say thanks for the informative posts. It’s a rare day I can say “I learned something useful on Kiwiblog today”. This has been one of those days. In fact, you’ve put me about three hours behind in my work schedule, so thanks for that 😛
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January 10, 2011 7:47pm
cha

.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/01/dick_winters_of_band_of_brothe.html
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January 10, 2011 8:03pm
cha

Dick Winters.
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January 10, 2011 8:05pm
Hurf Durf

A is followed by B therefore A is responsible for B even if A had nothing to do with it anyway because A “was just there.” Case closed Your Honour pass me the nooses SHUT UP.

Top work there, guys. Top. Work. You’ve all done very well!
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January 10, 2011 9:00pm
hj

Scott Hamilton Says:
Wilmshurst’s findings are exciting and important, and may well lead to some changes in theories about Eastern Polynesian prehistory, but they do not question the view that the ancestors of the Maori were the first settlers of New Zealand. They don’t even affect the accepted date for settlement of New Zealand, which has for sometime been around about the thirteenth century.

The oddballs who believe New Zealand was settled thousands of years ago by advanced, pacifist Celtic races of leprechauns and giants (yes, they really do make those claims) should take no solace from Wilmshurst’s new findings. ‘

You can google Maori + 1000 years and find this is (or was) a strong meme.

As for odd-ball:

Maori and the Environmet: Kaitiaki
Forward: Dr Pita Sharples Minister of Maori Affairs

For a thousand years prior to the first wave of immigration, Maori lived in harmony with the environment. As tangata tiaki, we appreciated the need to protectthe mauri or physical lifeforce of everything in the natural environment..
.
And yet in the 19th and 20th century NZ during a period of colonial settlement, the land, the sea and the forests suffered from exploitation in the mistaken belief…..
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January 10, 2011 9:07pm
hj

The primary characteristic of indigeneity is therefore a close relationship with defined territories, land, and the natural world.

These five secondary characteristics – time, culture, an indigenous system of knowledge, environmental sustainability, and a native language ? as well as the primary characteristic, the over-riding relationship with the natural environment, bring indigenous peoples into a circle of shared understandings.
Indigeneity, and the Promotion of Positive Mental Health Mason Durie, Massey University
http://www.mentalhealthnz.org.nz/newsletters/view/article/2/12/#page-comments

Sustainability:
http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/moa/
http://www.archaeologydaily.com/news/201012155770/Hungry-Maoris-burned-forests-to-grow-food.html
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January 10, 2011 9:34pm
Pete George

McDonald’s said it was a family restaurant chain, and as part of offering the Wi-Fi service, its policy was that content must be of a family friendly nature, or suitable for a child to view.

“Because of this, access to a number of websites is blocked, including access to GayNZ.com, gambling, tobacco and adult mature content websites,” a McDonald’s spokeswoman said.

Apparently access is also blocked to Family Planning – a sly move by McDonald’s to get proven dupable customers to breed more?
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January 10, 2011 9:53pm
Fletch

Scott, yes I know it was a think tank started at the Frankfurt School, but everyone refers to it as the Frankfurt School kind of by default. I’m not saying Adorno’s ideology agreed with everything Marcuse did after they left again. Heck, when a student rebellion broke out in Germany where Adorno was and came into his classroom, he called the Police on them, and had them arrested [edit, as I see you have mentioned as well] But still,l Frankfurt was the origin of this idea of cultural Marxism and Critical Theory, after economic Marxism failed. Just do a google on “Political Correctness” and “Critical Theory” and up pops Frankfurt. There are even youtube video documentaries about it.

To me, the origin is pretty clear (David Kahane says the same thing in his book, Rules For Radical Conservatives). In the end it really doesn’t matter where Political Correctness started, as long as we can agree that it is bad.
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January 10, 2011 10:05pm
Dirty Rat

God Redbaiter is a boring twat

yawn yawn yawn
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January 10, 2011 10:05pm
Hurf Durf

It’s my right to look at huge tits while I have my Chicken McBites and no internet snooper will ever stop me!
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January 10, 2011 10:11pm
reid

McDonald’s said it was a family restaurant chain, and… its policy was that content must be of a family friendly nature, or suitable for a child to view.

Pete if this story had broken during Hulun’s reign it would have been action stations on the ninth floor. Phone calls made to the McDonald’s leadership, tame journalists lined up, the Rainbow division alerted, UNITE would have been protesting, Maryan Street prepped to plant a few PQs, etc. We MUST have our children exposed to gaity AT ALL COSTS and at all times no matter what. How else can we build our brave new world? Stamp.
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January 10, 2011 10:21pm
Pete George

What’s the biggest threat to the good of the nation, Gaity or McDaity?
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January 10, 2011 10:25pm
adze

Neither, Pete; it’s the Salami Pirates [sic; seen in Stuff comments today].
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January 10, 2011 10:35pm
nickb

15 years of living in Northland has convinced me nothing short of a nuke dropped on it will make it better:

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/aos-stood-down-after-kaikohe-brawl-3995747
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January 10, 2011 10:38pm
Right of way is Way of Right

A great man has passed. reports are coming out of the United States that Col Dick Winters has passed away. Dick Winters was the commanding officer fo Easy Company, the unit whose exploits were covered in the series “Band of Brothers”.

Vale, Col Winters.
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January 10, 2011 10:47pm
reid

Would you like some warning nick or would you prefer just to die in the rubble?

Edit: cha has already mentioned that RowiwoR.
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January 10, 2011 10:48pm
nickb

haha. not there anymore, thank god.
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January 10, 2011 10:55pm
reid

I remember reading years ago nick, Northland in the late 70’s had the highest % of Ph.D’s in the country, before it went to pot, literally. Now I understand, that title belongs to Marlborough.

It used to be beautiful.
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January 10, 2011 11:02pm
nickb

Really? That is a pretty crazy stat… take the h.D off now and you would be right
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January 10, 2011 11:06pm
reid

P has really changed our country hasn’t it – damned philosophy. When will those people stop thinking.
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January 10, 2011 11:10pm
Redbaiter

Any more quotes from your favourite non-partisan sheriff Reid.. or Olbermann??

Pffftt… p a t h e t i c………………!

BTW, did you read where the shooter was a 9/11 truther??
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January 10, 2011 11:26pm
Scott Hamilton

Fletch, the problem with your method is contained in this statement:

‘Just do a google on “Political Correctness” and “Critical Theory” and up pops Frankfurt’

For goodness’ sake, the internet isn’t peer-reviewed or quality-controlled in any way! You didn’t reply to my question as to whether you’d actually read a book by any Frankfurt school thinker. I’m sure you haven’t. I’m also sure you haven’t read one of the scholarly studies of the different aspects of their work, or one of the several general surveys of the Institute. Call me old-fashioned if you like, but I like to find out about something before I make broad generalisations about it.

But your lack of real interest in the Frankfurt School is shown by this statement:

‘In the end it really doesn’t matter where Political Correctness started, as long as we can agree that it is bad’

In other words, you’re not going to feel any embarrassment about making the most ridiculous generalisations about a whole series of thinkers (claiming that Adorno was a friend of radical feminism, or that Marcuse hated traditional Western culture), because such claims are only a means to your end of making some sort of statement about ‘political correctness’. You seem to understand political correctness as an attempt to shut down rational discussion. It seems to me that your lack of concern with the truth and your willingness to tar very different thinkers with the same brush actually makes rational discussion very hard.

‘Frankfurt was the origin of this idea of cultural Marxism and Critical Theory, after economic Marxism failed’

Yet another silly claim. Have you ever heard of chaps like Lukacs and Gramsci? They were writing about culture using Marxist concepts decades before the likes of Marcuse. As I noted, Henryk Grossman, the founder of Frankfurt, was a number-crunching economist par excellence. And not all of the people who came to work at the Institute later were interested in cultural rather than economic inquiry. During World War Two and the period afterwards the US government actually sponsored a series of quantitative surveys of different aspects of Western society by Frankfurters. Marcuse was focused on culture, but never abandoned his belief in the key tenets of classical Marxist economics. Adorno and Horkheimer on the other hand did. The sort of simplistic categories you’re using here just don’t match up with a complicated and rather interesting history.
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January 11, 2011 8:41am
jinpy

Scott, TIL – Thanks for your detailed posts. Highlights just how little I’ve read…

hj, yes I see your point on Sharples nonsense re kaitiaki, its clear the Maori destroyed habitat and extinguished species well before European arrival. I am interested in the concept of kaitiaki beyond Sharples myth though, my guess from a basic knowledge is that Maori had begun to introduce systems consistent with conserving the environment (kaitiakitanga) through rahui limiting taking of fish stocks and the like, perhaps as a consequence of overstretching the environment and learning from that. I’d like to know how successful or consolidated these attempts were. I acknowledge that the rewriting of history can be tempting from all parties though…

“These five secondary characteristics – time, culture, an indigenous system of knowledge, environmental sustainability, and a native language ? as well as the primary characteristic, the over-riding relationship with the natural environment, bring indigenous peoples into a circle of shared understandings.”

As for these comments, I think there is something in there, indigenous cultures do seem fundamentally different in the worldview and approach to Western cultures, and indigenous cultures around the world do seem to share attributes and acknowledge similarities. Such differences are difficult to tease out without experiencing the culture directly I would say, coming as most of us are from one culture it is hard to understand how others differ, or to acknowledge their merit.

Fletch, “Rules For Radical Conservatives” — must be some freethinking radicals..!
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January 11, 2011 9:13am

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