General Debate 03 January 2011

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pdm

Gotcha – first time for 2011.
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January 3, 2011 8:05am
All_on_Red

“The dramatic and threatening environmental changes announced for the next decades are the result of models whose main drive factor of climatic changes is the increasing carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Although taken as a premise, the hypothesis does not have verifiable consistence.”

“The anthropogenic wasting of fossil fuel CO2 to the atmosphere shows no relation with the temperature changes even in an annual basis. The absence of immediate relation between CO2 and temperature is evidence that rising its mix ratio in the atmosphere will not imply more absorption and time residence of energy over the Earth surface.”

http://www.scirp.org/Journal/PaperInformation.aspx?paperID=3447&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=ijg13&utm_campaign=01

Just for Pete and Luc. Another Peer Reviewed nail in the coffin of the warmists from the International Journal of Geosciences

So;
Sea Level rise is minimal (3mm pa)
Arctic Ice has recovered well
Antarctic Ice has expanded (90% of the worlds ice here)
Global Temp anomaly is only .38 degrees above average and is dropping.

Will they apologise for the waste of all those resources diverted to “fix” this non existent problem. How many children could have been provided quality water if governments had spent the money on that instead of all those conferences around the world and expensive worthless research?

Murderers.
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January 3, 2011 8:19am
jaba

looks like our Wellington friends are in for interesting times regarding Council expenditure .. lucky you have a new mayor to sort it out .. a little like us poor bstds in the Akld region even though our swimming pools will be free to use .. soon?
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January 3, 2011 8:25am
singularian

All on red – I’m also looking forward to our refund from John Key, Nick Smith and various other suckers as their ETS looks more and more like theft from us taxpayers. How long do you think it will take for them to admit they are wrong? Will they ever repeal the ETS? Or will they continue to steal from us to NOT solve a non exsistent problem?

I hope all KB readers will attend a National party candidate political meeting this election and question the candidate over this blatant theft from the NZ public.

A pox on all their houses.
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January 3, 2011 8:30am
Manolo

Planning to move to the UN?
Key, the man of steel, threatens but it’s unlikely to happen given Labour’s state of disarray and infighting.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10697623
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January 3, 2011 8:34am
hj

Rawiri Taonui has a piece in SST: Opportunists exploit migration data for cheap shots at Maori. ”

Analysis of more than 1,400 radio carbon dates from 47 Polynesian has thrown up some groundbreaking ideas – none more interesting than the proposition that East Polynesia was settled several hundred years later, but much faster than previously thought. After migrants arrived in Tahiti in 1025-1120AD the remainder of East Polynesia was settled via an intense migratory “pulse” between 1190-1290AD probably driven by population growth,technical innovation in sailing vessels, climatic change or environmental disaster. Opportunists have exaggerated or misrepresented the findings of this specialised but narrow study to cast a negative light on a number of Māori issues in a manner echoing the Warrior Gene debate of 2007.
The 1250 date for New Zealand has been misrepresented as “new”. One of the researchers, ProfessorAtholl Anderson proposed it in 1999. Discussion has overlooked that the proposed chronology is based on just 200 of the 1,400 radiocarbon dates canvasses, which although they produce higher precision narrower time frames, set aside several hundred more equally important broader range samples suggesting Tahiti, the Northern Cooks, New Zealand and Easter Island weresettled as early as 350BC. The researchers admit their hypothesis is “falsifiable” – another piece of a larger puzzle not the lastword on the subject. For instance, rising Holocene sea levels beginning from about12,000 years ago did not reach current levels until around 600AD which may have obliterated the earliest coastal sites*.

So a close look is equal to a not so precise examination which “suggests”?
* and Richard Pearce may have flown before the Wright brothers.

Rather than a negative for Māori achievement, the new proposition suggests East Polynesian seafarers achieved an unprecedented rate of dispersal in prehistory settling more than 500 islands within just 200 years.
Rather than a negative for Māori achievement, the new proposition suggests East Polynesian seafarers achieved an unprecedented rate of dispersal in prehistory settling more than 500 islands within just 200 years.

It included long migratory voyages across open water without western navigational instruments to Hawaii, New Zealand and Easter Island at a time when European mariners clung nervously to the coastlines of Europe and the Mediterranean several hundred years before Christopher Columbus accidently bumped into the Americas.

he doesn’t mention the other “achievement ” which is (on the arrival in NZ) the fastest mass extinction of a megafauna “a blitzkrieg” in human history.

he is suggesting that this doesn’t change anything but as I pointed out before google: “Maori + 1000 years” and this meme of Maori , New Zealand and antiquity is/was firmly entrenched. plus the notion of a deep and hallowed reverence for the land and all its fauna and flora.
If Maori arrived “between 1210 and 1385 AD” then they either get browny points for wiping out the wildlife very fast and more time to develop a reverent conservationist culture or it took them longer and they get less time.

Use of the study to question Māori indigenous status is disingenuously. Professor Anderson described it as “illogical.”The United Nations defines indigenous people as the descendants of the first occupiers of a land who have a distinct culture and language. Whether Māori arrived in350BC or 1250AD – the fact remains they beat Europeans to our foreshores by several hundred years.

the problem is that while Michael King argues that Pakeha have an indigenous culture. Prominent Maori (and sickly white liberals) argue vehemently against .

http://uriohau.blogspot.com/2011/01/opportunists-exploit-migration-data-to.html

“… human hunting and habitat destruction drove the eleven species of moa to extinction less than 100 years after Polynesian settlement of New Zealand …”

R. N. Holdaway & C. Jacomb, Rapid Extinction of the Moas (Aves: Dinornithiformes): Model, Test, and Implications, Science, March 24 2000

Allegiance to One’s Origins:
The Consequences of Belief
Michael King, Historian
http://sof.org.nz/origins.htm

“While neither Mallard nor King hankers for the day when we will all be one people, their claim to indigeneity is similarly an assertion of their right to be here. But what does such an assertion really entail? Avril Bell has this to say about the Päkehä claim to indigeneity:
If Pakeha are to be indigenous they are cut off from their history as the descendants and inheritors of the privileges of the colonisers of Aotearoa. This history is discarded as Pakeha are ‘born’ post colonisation out of the New Zealand soil. Such a move represents a desire to be ‘born again’ New Zealanders, disowning their parents and imagining themselves adopted . . .”

“I regard tikanga as the first law of Aotearoa. It arrived here with our ancestors and it operated effectively to serve their needs for a thousand years before Päkehä came. ”
http://brucejesson.com/item/2008/07/bruce-jesson-memorial-lecture-2004—professor-ani-mikaere
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January 3, 2011 8:48am
jaba

don’t tell me that Cullen was considered for GG, description sounds right
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January 3, 2011 8:49am
starboard

Rawiri Taonui is a fat racist m/f..what he has to say about anything is of no consequence to anyone.
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January 3, 2011 8:55am
Manolo

Ah, those Latins. Brazil’s new Second Lady is hot as hell (a mere 43 years his junior):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105×9589832
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January 3, 2011 9:07am
hj

“Rawiri Taonui is a fat racist m/f..what he has to say about anything is of no consequence to anyone.”

Unless the wisdom of Professors Mutu, Mikarere, + Malcholm Mulholland, etc etc make their way into Maori society and government policy.
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January 3, 2011 9:09am
Manolo

Are you talking about Professor Taonui, the peaceful man? http://www.stuff.co.nz/4366846/Outspoken-Rawiri-Taonui-resigns
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January 3, 2011 9:12am
dad4justice

FFS what century will moaning maori stop playing the poor me card?
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January 3, 2011 9:15am
hj

“The researchers admit their hypothesis is “falsifiable” – another piece of a larger puzzle not the lastword on the subject. For instance, rising Holocene sea levels beginning from about12,000 years ago did not reach current levels until around 600AD which may have obliterated the earliest coastal sites*. ”

….
anyone else get the feeling he doesn’t understand falsifiable (in a scientific sense)?
http://uriohau.blogspot.com/2011/01/opportunists-exploit-migration-data-to.html
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January 3, 2011 9:20am
Offshore_Kiwi

D4J you know the answer to that one. It will never stop until the gravy train pulls into the station for the last time and the line gets closed, along with the wallet. Then there will be a further period of whingeing and moaning, with the UN enlisted to try and prise the wallet back open. If the government of the day manages to stand fast (haven’t seen any politician with brains or balls to do that in the last 20 years) and refuses, there will likely be a civil war as the scab is ripped off the festering wound of race relations in New Zealand.
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January 3, 2011 9:23am
dad4justice

Indeed Offshore Kiwi, it’s really sad that bitter and twisted maori just can’t get along with being a kiwi.
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January 3, 2011 9:24am
Lee C

Has Key regally shafted Goff here?

http://monkeyswithtypewriter.blogspot.com/2011/01/ill-quit-if-i-lose-keys-smiling.html#comment-form

Thnx – Lee MWT
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January 3, 2011 9:26am
Offshore_Kiwi

I think he has Lee. He’s told Goff almost the exact date on which his political career will end. He’s told him this year’s election will be no lolly scramble because there are no lollies (I wonder incidentally if that will equate to a record-low turnout, or if the election will, for a change, be fought as a contest of ideas). For those of us with an interest in politics it’s a master-stroke. But will the sheeple pick up on it? Does it matter whether they do or not, since the entire interview was constructed as a clear message to Liarbore?
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January 3, 2011 9:39am
hj

We need a shift away from parties to policies.
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January 3, 2011 9:51am
Tauhei Notts

Audrey Young’s interview with John Key in this morning’s N.Z. Herald is worth reading in full.
In April 2009 I commented to an Aussie that I thought the possibility existed that John Key might become one of New Zealand’s greatest prime ministers. A lot of water has to pass under the bridge before I can confirm that possibility but I think that the water has passed under that bridge. I think now that he might be right up there with the best.
His damning of the Labour Party is brilliant;
“I can’t be leader of the opposition as I am not a negative person.”
I have never ever seen Goff, Mallard & Co. so firmly put in their place. And done in the nicest possible way.
His delightful comments about his 15 year old son’s behaviour on the golf course will resonate with every 40+ year old father in the country. And his nice comments about his wife are delightful. I just think that she might be the neck in their family. In any good family the husband is the head of the family and the wife is the neck. And if you know anything about human physiology you will know that the only thing the head can do withhout permission of the neck, is wink.
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January 3, 2011 10:15am
Tauhei Notts

Without
not withhout.
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January 3, 2011 10:18am
jaba

Life support switched off for nightclub assault victim Josephine Tovey
January 3, 2011
.
John Hopoate Photo: James Brickwood

THE family of a man injured during a confrontation with bouncers, including the former rugby league player John Hopoate, outside a Kings Cross nightclub, decided to turn off his life support last night.

Wilson Duque, 33, suffered head injuries after an altercation with bouncers near the Trademark Hotel on December 18. The hotel is owned by the Kings Cross identity John Ibrahim.

His family told News Limited that his brother Wilmer, 27, had argued with bouncers after being refused entry to the club. Wilson had rushed to his brother’s defence after the bouncers had chased him down Darlinghurst Road.

Advertisement: Story continues below Hopoate was arrested that night and questioned at Kings Cross police station. He was charged with assaulting the younger brother, occasioning actual bodily harm and affray.
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January 3, 2011 11:03am
gravedodger

Happy birthday Gravedodger, we start another year on the right side of the grass. Thanks to all who contribute to my stipend.
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January 3, 2011 11:22am
Fletch

Very good review HERE of MTV’s show about abortion, following young teens have it done, and the mentality of the feminist Left.
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January 3, 2011 11:53am
hj

You’d think God would dissociate having children form the sex act and make “every child a wanted child”?
Sometimes I wonder why God does things the way he does given his high I.Q
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January 3, 2011 12:23pm
nickb

It’s hard to get worked up about things political on the first day of an ashes Test… bliss

Lets hope the Poms dish out another spanking
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January 3, 2011 12:24pm
Fletch

Again, New Zealand must be one of the few countries in the world where there is no Midday News on the main channel at this time of year because all the newsreaders go on holiday.

Don’t they have young up-and-comers who can do it? The ones who do it on TV 7? Or are the main anchors afraid that they’ll lose their jobs to newbies before they come back.
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January 3, 2011 12:32pm
redeye

Why anyone would watch television news is beyond me.
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January 3, 2011 12:45pm
eszett

TVNZ 7, Fletch, news on the hour. And the 8pm news is not only better than the 6pm News, it’s at a time when you can actually watch the news. If you are into watching the news on TV these days.
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January 3, 2011 12:52pm
AlphaKiwi

Trevor Mallard makes a valid point that John Key saying that he will quit politics, when he is no longer prime minister makes him appear to be more of a C.V. builder than in it for the long haul. Hence, the lack of tough decisions from him.
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January 3, 2011 12:55pm
reid

The PM’s role always has been a passing fancy for him which makes him unique in my memory. Every other candidate has considered it a pinnacle and I’ve always had the impression for him, it’s just another phase in life. Which is fine. But I don’t necessarily draw any connection between that and the lack of tough decisions – I put that down to his lack of deep understanding which takes years to develop, of what success in the job is about and as we all keep saying, it’s not about being popular.
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January 3, 2011 1:06pm
hj

Tariana Turia:
As mana whenua, our turangawaewae and ükaipö, the places where we belong, where we count, where we are important where we are suckled and where we can contribute are absolutely essential to who we are.

The relationship is indivisible between us and those places. That’s why the protection and preservation of our land, our whenua, is of such critical importance because our whole well-ness is associated with her. Any damage to Papatuanuku impacts on our health and spiritual well-being.

http://alfgrumblemp.wordpress.com/2010/12/14/yes-the-white-man-chopped-down-forests-but-only-those-that-survived-maori-burnings/
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January 3, 2011 1:19pm
hj

Greenfly looks for a loose brick on the Wilmshurst wall (on behalf of the post modernist Green Party faction) and declares:

Rats!
“New evidence from research into kiore, the Pacific rat, reveals that they and their human co-colonizers
arrived here in Aotearoa no earlier than 1280 AD. This puts pay to claims that humans first arrived here around 2000 years ago. Perhaps. I found the work done with native tree seeds and the marks left behind by rat chew very interesting and took one of their images to illustrate this post.
From the article (hat-tip Geoff ).”
http://robertguyton.blogspot.com/2010/12/rats.html
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January 3, 2011 1:37pm
Swiftman the infidel

At all cost, the progressives of universal interfaith dialogue in New Zealstan will steer government resources into keeping the ‘bread and butter’ Kiwis ignorant of the terrible cancer of Islam that has been inflicted upon us by fully Islamic conscious international migration plans.

These people know what happens when Muslims migrate. They know that massive suffering will occur due to the direct link between the Quran and behavior.

The ruling class of the West, after 1400 years of secretly pining for a way to have the glory Muslim sultans had, a permanent serf society mandated by God. The feudal system broke down when people began to read the bible for themselves.

This civilizational war is being fought against any people with a semblance of free will left in them. Our ruling class – Clark, Key etc will no longer tolerate a king higher than them. Unless its a god that ensures might makes right as a core value. The only way the peons will stand for it is if they all share the same faith thus accepting their place because Allah wills it. Didn’t Helen Clark open a big Mosque near Hamilton a few years back?

This is an artificial quickening of the conditions necessary for pure, unadulterated hell on earth.

The only people looking forward to that are those who have already insulated themselves from the fray and inserted themselves into the system.
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January 3, 2011 2:01pm
Kris K

Well said, Swiftman (2:01 pm).
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January 3, 2011 2:41pm
nickb

No wonder freedom in NZ is dead and buried…

Look at what passes for “academic research” in our universities:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10697411

And the facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/twodrinksmax#!/twodrinksmax?v=wall

If any of you are on facebook I would urge you to give some of these do-gooders a kick in the arse. Look at some of the comments!

Maybe all cars in NZ should be required to have breath test ignition – take the thinking out of it, since ppl obviously can’t make the right decision after they’ve had a few..

A car is a deadly weapon. It’s been said SOOOOO many times that it actually makes my head hurt just thinking about it. Yet here we are again, kids killed and booze in the mix. If I had it my way there’d be no drinking and driving at all.

What???

Doug Sellman would be a heck of fun over a pint (or orange juice, more likely)
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January 3, 2011 2:55pm
Cobra Kai

>Didn’t Helen Clark open a big Mosque near Hamilton a few years back?

Swiftman, you may find it useful to do some fact checking before shooting yourself in the foot.

The mosque in Hamilton has been there for almost 30 years. That’s a massive “artificial quickening” and has really turned Hamilton into a hotbed of Muslim terrorism, hasn’t it?

The new mosque was built on the same site, i.e. same land area, in the late 90’s. Helen Clark did not attend the opening. What she did attend was the re-opening. You see, a re-opening was required because some dimwits like yourself firebombed the place, burning it to the ground and requiring it to be completely rebuilt.

I’d say that given the evidence, Muslims in NZ have more to fear from people like yourself than the other way around.
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January 3, 2011 4:23pm
reid

Good point, Cobra Kai. I fully expect all those here who preach of nothing but Muslim peril and demand Islamic leaders condemn the extremists, also condemn this extremist act, just to set an example.

Will they, or won’t they?
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January 3, 2011 4:29pm
Fletch

reid, true. It would be better for everyone if so-called “moderate” Muslims stood up and condemned terrorist acts done in the name if Islam, but strangely, all you hear is silence…
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January 3, 2011 4:42pm
reid

strangely, all you hear is silence…

It depends on what you listen to Fletch. I addressed this question with Kris some months ago and provided him with several links detailing thousands of Imams who’d condemned terrorist acts committed in the name of Islam. I could probably find them again but can’t be arsed for I don’t consider it to be a telling, important or significant angle in this issue as your side seem to hallucinate it is.

See so what if they don’t. What possible difference does it make? What conclusion can you possibly draw from that which isn’t better drawn from other sources? For example, if you wanted to understand how many Muslims tacitly support terrorism, then who cares? The number you want is the precise number of those who actively do so, and that means, every single one of them including all knowing donars. No doubt there are many Muslims who give (because it’s a fundamental part of their religion) and their money unknowingly actually does go to terrorist groups. You probably won’t believe that but in the human world of this 7 or so billion today, in 2011, such things actually happen you know. So you want to distinguish those, don’t you. The unknowing from the knowing.

And how many in total do you seriously really think there are. Say there is a total of I don’t know, 1.8 billion Muslims on the planet. Specifically, how many of them do you think knowingly support terrorism?
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January 3, 2011 4:49pm
Steve

Auckland’s Queen St was great today. Ferry over from Devonport. Two Cruise Ships in town so heaps of tourists. Hardy any places charging a holiday surcharge and they were doing very well.
Point of interest; the window display at Smith and Caugheys, Cinderella Act Deco style. Yes I bought the book.

Only sad thing was our Cultural Indigenous People lying in the doorways drunk, asleep or smashed. One in a pool of spew. Another by a rubbish bin he just raided, litter everywhere. Body odour was in the air. Disgusting. Right in front or the tourists. All this at 2pm ffs

It will be good when they go back to work
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January 3, 2011 5:32pm
Ryan Sproull

It goes without saying that Christians in general oppose child sexual abuse. It’s offensive to ask them to make some kind of official statement condemning child sexual abuse, because it implies that the default position of Christians is to be in favour of something everyone condemns.
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January 3, 2011 5:35pm
reid

Only sad thing was our Cultural Indigenous People lying in the doorways drunk, asleep or smashed.

Steve one thing I’ve never understood is why since the 80’s we’ve as a society tolerated street kids now street adults to first appear now proliferate. What is wrong with us as a society that firstly we tolerate this treatment or lack thereof of these people and secondly that we have for now three decades. In the early 80’s there were no street kids at all now there are thousands and all that time none of us apart from the City Missions have been doing systematic work understanding and thereby preventing them in future.

We reap what we sow and we haven’t as a society done right by any of these people. I know almost all of them will to live there, but why? How come we haven’t made any effort whatsoever over three decades to attempt a detailed understanding and prevention of such twisted values. It is sad.
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January 3, 2011 5:43pm
Kris K

Of course Reid’s definition of a “moderate” Muslim is anyone who hasn’t strapped on a bomb pack and blown themselves, and anyone in the general vacinity, to smitherines.

Whereas others, like myself and Fletch, view all those Muslims who remain silent at the latest Islamic atrocity as OTHER THAN “moderate” Muslims. I refer to them as “sleepers” because, lets face it, you only get one shot with a bomb pack masquerading as wearable art.

But I’m sure Reid has many personal Muslim friends who fall into the “moderate” category …
And when you get a chance, Reid, you might like to ask them about their views on Israel and the Jews, and whether they feel either have a right to exist. I’m sure their answers will be most enlightening.
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January 3, 2011 5:57pm
Ryan Sproull

What does not remaining silent involve, Kris?
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January 3, 2011 6:07pm
Swiftman the infidel

Cobra Kai = useful idiot = dhimmi
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January 3, 2011 6:34pm
Swiftman the infidel

‘re-opening’ = re-establishing
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January 3, 2011 6:35pm
Manolo

Stormy weather ahead for the Messiah: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/03/us/politics/03repubs.html
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January 3, 2011 6:37pm
reid

But I’m sure Reid has many personal Muslim friends who fall into the “moderate” category … And when you get a chance, Reid, you might like to ask them about their views on Israel and the Jews, and whether they feel either have a right to exist. I’m sure their answers will be most enlightening.

Indeed I do Kris [have moderate Muslim friends]. I wouldn’t be friends with any others as I wouldn’t be friends with Christians who I thought weren’t observing the right path, either.

I’m aware of the Islamic attitude toward Jews Kris. Why is this a big problem for you? Do you understand why the Muslims feel this way? Of course you do. So its even, isn’t it. See Kris, neither you nor I can possibly impact let alone resolve this age-old problem so why even discuss it? Let’s move on to something that can be solved, like why Muslims are really really angry these days. Why do you think that is? Are they just being completely unreasonable, or is there another possible explanation?
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January 3, 2011 6:39pm
Kris K

Ryan 6:07 pm,

What does not remaining silent involve, Kris?

How about marching in the street in protest over Islamic atrocities, in much the same way as they manage to march in the streets in protest when someone publishes a cartoon of Mohammed. For instance, how many Muslim protest marches were there when film maker Theo Van Gogh was murdered by a piece of Islamic filth as a result of having jihad declared upon him for his part in producing the film “Submission”? Can’t recall any.

Or when the Twin Towers came down …
Or when Muslim animals in Western nations rape non-Muslim women …
Or when they set up pedophile rings consisting of non-Muslim underage girls …

As Fletch said earlier, all we hear is silence.

I encourage you to read the following article, Ryan – it addresses this very issue.
You too, Reid:

The Complacent Muslim and Your Obedience to Mohammed

It is often said in defense of 21st Century Islam in this current climate of conflict, in fact, war between the world of Islam and the West, that most Muslims do not participate in, nor support, the actions of the extremists acting in the name of that religion. That is a misguided and tragic defense, as history has proven again and again that in a totalitarian regime, the silent become irrelevant when the terrorists take power. It doesn’t matter what the complacent want or don’t want, feel or don’t feel, agree or don’t agree, they are part of what the extremists control in large part as a result of the inaction of this majority. Those who do not speak up in the Muslim world today should understand that what they become, as a result of this silence, are the compatriots of the Islamic extremists who incinerate American civilians, behead their own homosexuals, stone to death Muslim female rape victims, and who are authorized by their religious leaders to brutally torture and murder anyone else who isn’t a doctrinaire follower of the prophet Mohammed according to the Koran.

It is the observable, and repeated, facts of history that tell us this. The same thing happened in Soviet Russia, in Nazi Germany and in imperial Japan, among many other examples.
[continues]

Well worth reading the whole thing.
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January 3, 2011 6:45pm
Kris K

reid 6:39 pm,

Are they just being completely unreasonable …

I guess the answer to that question depends on whether or not you view Mohammed as ‘reasonable’ …
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January 3, 2011 6:51pm
Cobra Kai

> ‘re-opening’ = re-establishing

Wow, I am stunned at the power of your argument and use of facts Swiftman. If you’d bothered actually reading my response, the mosque was burnt down, and was then re-built. It was rebuilt to the exact same specifications as it was before it was burnt down. Not sure how you may interpret this as “re-establishing”…

>Cobra Kai = useful idiot = dhimmi

Keep trying – one of these days you may actually get a clue. I have previously posted on this forum that I am a Muslim. Which obviously means I cannot be a dhimmi…
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January 3, 2011 6:56pm
reid

I guess the answer to that question depends on whether or not you view Mohammed as ‘reasonable’ …

Personally I base my assessment of ‘reasonableness’ on their humanity and not on their professed religion. Doing so on the latter brings a limited circle of friends and acquaintances furthermore goes against Paul’s general message of missionary reaching out doesn’t it so yep, Mohammed said stuff which I don’t happen to believe but which others do. That’s a shocker to me but I’m prepared to live with it. How about you Kris?
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January 3, 2011 7:01pm
Kris K

Reid 7:01 pm,

That’s a shocker to me but I’m prepared to live with it. How about you Kris?

Perhaps that’s where we part company, Reid – I’m pretty intolerant of the intolerable.

PS Did you read the article I linked to in my 6:45 pm comment?
It puts to bed the notion of “Moderate Islam”.
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January 3, 2011 7:13pm
Steve

reid @ 5.43pm
“We reap what we sow and we haven’t as a society done right by any of these people. I know almost all of them will to live there, but why? How come we haven’t made any effort whatsoever over three decades to attempt a detailed understanding and prevention of such twisted values. It is sad”

The more you give, the more they will demand reid. Pissing up and stoned/smashed happens more in the dark hours. This was 2pm in the fucking afternoon, in front of the visitors to New Zealand. Just a festering sore on the taxpayer. Where are the Police? Where are the City Leaders, Mr Len Brown hah. The Council was not working today, spew on the footpath, rubbish bins overflowing.

I did not see any whities laying down, nope, they were standing up and working in the shops and cafes’.
Racist? dont give a shit. Truth speaks
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January 3, 2011 7:27pm
Ryan Sproull

How about marching in the street in protest over Islamic atrocities, in much the same way as they manage to march in the streets in protest when someone publishes a cartoon of Mohammed. For instance, how many Muslim protest marches were there when film maker Theo Van Gogh was murdered by a piece of Islamic filth as a result of having jihad declared upon him for his part in producing the film “Submission”? Can’t recall any.

Or when the Twin Towers came down …
Or when Muslim animals in Western nations rape non-Muslim women …
Or when they set up pedophile rings consisting of non-Muslim underage girls …

As Fletch said earlier, all we hear is silence.

Did you protest in the street when any of those things happened?

And about whom are you talking when you say “they manage to march about cartoons of Mohammed”? How many of “them” did that, compared to how many who didn’t?
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January 3, 2011 7:30pm
reid

Perhaps that’s where we part company, Reid – I’m pretty intolerant of the intolerable.

Yes but the irony is Kris this was a sarcastic Parthian Shot and you’ve taken it seriously, which says a lot.

PS Did you read the article I linked to in my 6:45 pm comment? It puts to bed the notion of “Moderate Islam”.

Kris you don’t get it, fundamentally. This is classic cross-talk. The point in your 6:45 addresses nothing I’ve ever been saying. Look, here’s a clue. I’ve been aware for about two years now you believe Muslims are on this commie-like crusade and unless we all wake up right now it’s all over and the evidence is all around us not least of all in the very Koran itself. Duh-dah-dahhhhhh.

Yes we all get it Kris.

The point some of us have been patiently making over the years – sigh – is that reality doesn’t actually look like this. Yes, we understand what you’re saying and the historical precedents in great and insightful detail but nevertheless, it’s not happening like that, repeat, sigh, it’s not, repeat not happening the way you say it is.

Crikey Kris. How many more times is this going to take.
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January 3, 2011 7:37pm
Ryan Sproull

It seems that if some Muslims do something bad, only those Muslims who march against it actually oppose it.

BUT if Muslims march about a cartoon, all Muslims are guilty of marching about it.
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January 3, 2011 7:41pm
reid

Steve my point was going a bit deeper than the NY mess, would be good if you could address that.
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January 3, 2011 7:43pm
reid

Look Kris or Fletch at the end of the day it’s a simple question: as given above:

So you want to distinguish those, don’t you. The unknowing from the knowing. And how many in total do you seriously really think there are. Say there is a total of I don’t know, 1.8 billion Muslims on the planet. Specifically, how many of them do you think knowingly support terrorism?

Just give us a number, that’s all you have to do just give us a number. Do you want mine? I’ll give you mine if you prefer then you can rip it apart if you can.

The reason for a number – duh – is threat quantification – first rule of risk assessment. So seriously, you have to have a number yourselves. What is it?
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January 3, 2011 7:47pm
Steve

Meanwhile over on Red Blurt:
Spud says:
January 3, 2011 at 11:59 am
Congratulations on your selection, I look forward to seeing you kicking some serious butt this year! !

@Trev – can I write a guest post sometime?
No Spud. You are not in or likely to be in our caucus. Trevor

Yep, it is Trev the hev defending himself that “Spud” is not his BOT. Ever noticed that they appear at the same time and Spud gets moderated then it’s ok soon after?
John Key has put you in your place Trevor Mallard, as he has with Phil Goff. You wait for Goff to move so you can be top dog? It ain’t gonna happen. Bullies will not be tolerated. Time to buy a house in Taumaranui. Maybe your spud will like that.
Sorry to Kiwibloggers, the mad duck banned me ages ago for being off his topic
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January 3, 2011 7:50pm
Fletch

There are some statistics out there.

According to Pew Research Centre poll, taken 2007,

28% of Egyptian Muslims say they believe suicide bombings against civilian targets are sometimes or often justified
17% of Turkish Muslims agree
10% of Indonesian Muslims agree
14% of Pakistani Muslims
29% of Jordanian Muslims
46% of Nigerian Muslims

In 2007 a book was released called Who Speaks For Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think, written by John Esposito (professor of Islamic Studies at Georgetown University), and Dalia Mogahed (herself a Muslim and executive director of the Gallup Center for Muslim Studies).

This book is the product of a mammoth, multiyear Gallup research study. Between 2001 and 2007, Gallup conducted tens of thousands of hour-long, face-to-face interviews with residents of more than 35 nations that are predominantly Muslim or have substantial Muslim populations. The sample represents residents young and old, educated and illiterate, female and male, and from urban and rural settings. With the random sampling method that Gallup used, results are statistically valid within a plus or minus 3-point margin of error. In totality, we surveyed a sample representing more than 90% of the world’s 1.3 billion Muslims, making this the largest, most comprehensive study of contemporary Muslims ever done.

The results they got –

There is much good news, but some bad. The bad news is that 7% of Muslims would be classified as radical – that is, they support anti-American and anti-Western terrorism, believe it is fully justified, and are sympathetic to violent Islamic extremists.

According to the Gallup poll, 7 percent of [Muslim] respondents think that the 9/11 attacks were ‘completely’ justified and view the United State unfavorably. By focusing on that 7 percent, whom we will call the ‘politically radicalized’ we are not saying that all in this group commit acts of violence. However, those with extremist views are a potential source for recruitment or support for terrorist groups . . . They are also more likely to view other civilian attacks as justifiable

He goes on to point of that 7 percent of 1.3 billion Muslims is 91 million people.
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January 3, 2011 8:36pm
Hurf Durf

Hiya Sprout! I thought you quit this place.

New Proggy Piggy spin: the post-Pax Americana era won’t be that bad, it’ll be just like the Dark Ages. Which, as we all know, were a wonderful time to be alive.

Also on the same site, the same Proggy Piggy manages to associate diplomatic and security ties with military annexation. It’s an easy mistake to make if you’re a Proggy Piggy! Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
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January 3, 2011 8:40pm
Ryan Sproull

Hi, Hurf. I quit for a while. Back now that my faith in humanity has been recharged a bit. Not sure what half the words you’re using mean. Will click on the links to your blog later.
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January 3, 2011 8:50pm
Ryan Sproull

I hope everyone is ready to boycott the upcoming Thor movie.

http://boycott-thor.com/

The Council of Conservative Citizens says so.
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January 3, 2011 8:54pm
Hurf Durf

lol superhero films and lolol comic books in general.
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January 3, 2011 8:58pm
Fletch

Ryan, I saw the Thor trailer and it looked pretty lame. The Green Lantern trailer looked a bit more entertaining 🙂
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January 3, 2011 8:59pm
Ryan Sproull

I dunno, Fletch. I’m a big fan of Taika, but Ryan Reynolds is a bit Jim Carey for me. Which is not to say I won’t be seeing Green Lantern at the movies when it comes out…

Haven’t seen the Thor trailer. I’m sure it’s going to be awful. But if the Marvel movies are working their way into the massive X-Men/Avengers/Fantastic Four/Thor/Iron Man crossover movies I hallucinate they’re going to, it’ll all be worth it.

Even X-Men 3: True Love.
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January 3, 2011 9:08pm
reid

He goes on to point of that 7 percent of 1.3 billion Muslims is 91 million people.

Excellent Fletch now given this fact as it exists for I don’t dispute it one little bit, what is the best general strategy for the west if you wanted to reduce and not increase this number of people who are “a potential source for recruitment or support for terrorist groups?”

Just in very very general terms.
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January 3, 2011 9:10pm
Fletch

Ryan, did you see the youtube cartoon of Black Panther on that boycott Thor site? It’s obviously based on the artwork of John Romita Jr (I’d know his style anywhere); but the animation is kind of weird. Sort of like Flash animation of something where they move various parts of the face/body to animate it.

I’ve come to the conclusion over the years that Marvel sucks at animation. Warner/DC stuff is so fluid in comparison…
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January 3, 2011 9:11pm
Ryan Sproull

Just saw the Thor trailer, Fletch. I agree. It looks fucking pants.

But I’ll still go see it.

It’s pathological.
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January 3, 2011 9:13pm
Ryan Sproull

Fletch,

Yeah, that animation sucks. Nothing compares to the original Batman Animated for awesome comic-book animation.
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January 3, 2011 9:16pm
Fletch

reid, I am currently reading Inside The Revolution, by Joel Rosenberg; he separates the Muslims into three movements: the Radicals, the Reformers, and the Revivalists. I’ve only just finished the bit about the Radicals, so I can’t really say yet.

I have read another author say that it is Sharia, not terrorism, that must be the line of demarcation, dividing radical Islam from moderate Islam.
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January 3, 2011 9:24pm
reid

I broadly agree Fletch, again, what is the best general strategy toward containment? Yours? How is it supposed to end, if everyone ends up booting them out of the community they’ve been living in for goodness knows how long? If that’s not your end goal, then what is your end goal?
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January 3, 2011 9:30pm
Fletch

reid, I never advocated booting anyone out of the community. It’s a tough question, to be sure and I’m not claiming to have the answer. I’m not in favour of persecuting any group, and I never claimed a ‘containment strategy” as you put it. All I know is that people have to stand up to the extremists. The media, for one, has to call a spade a spade and not try to hide the fact that this or that act is Muslim related. I notice that Obama is doing a fine job of that – purposely not mentioning Islam in relation to terrorist acts where it is obviously Islamic terror related, like the Fort Hood massacre.

I think more Muslims in the community have to stand up and decry these extremist acts.
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January 3, 2011 10:36pm
reid

I never advocated booting anyone out of the community

If you were a Muslim how would you interpret your advocacy re: this issue?

I think more Muslims in the community have to stand up and decry these extremist acts.

I know you do but I don’t understand why they have to and even if they do what this proves? Christians don’t do it when a Christian commits a crime? Maori’s don’t do it when a Maori commits a crime? Pakeha’s don’t do it when a pakeha commits a crime? Why the fuck are you so keen on Muslims doing it when you don’t demand similar from ALL repeat ALL of those groups, not to mention other groups I could probably think of as well. Why is it just the Muslims, Fletch?
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January 3, 2011 10:45pm
Ryan Sproull

I think more Muslims in the community have to stand up and decry these extremist acts.

And what if they don’t?
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January 3, 2011 10:49pm
Fletch

Ryan, they don’t seem to be saying anything right now, which is not helping. I think that by the moderates not saying anything that it’s easier for Sharia or extreme Islam to “creep” into a country. Perhaps one could make the argument that Hitler would not have become what he was if more of the German people had not just accepted his actions.

This is not to say that I know I would be brave enough to: everyone is brave on a blog site, but it’s a different thing sticking your butt out on the line in real life.
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January 3, 2011 11:07pm
reid

Perhaps one could make the argument that Hitler would not have become what he was if more of the German people had not just accepted his actions.

Fletch, Hitler was assisted by the fact he had total control of the population. The Muslims don’t. Possibly all but the most stupid Muslims actually realise this.

I’m not sure quite how many terrifically stupid Muslims there are in the country, but I imagine not that many. Can I take it therefore that yet another potential threat sub-section of the overall dangerous Muslim population has been eliminated from your radar, given that the only threat from a Muslim who thought they were Hitler or in anyway apparently enthralled by him, would be immediately spotted and dealt with by the general population?
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January 3, 2011 11:27pm
Sonny Blount

Pete Postlethwaite just karked it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/film-news/8237109/Actor-Pete-Postlethwaite-dies-aged-64.html
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January 3, 2011 11:28pm
Offshore_Kiwi

RIP Pete Postlethwaite. The man (I think it was) Spielberg said was the greatest actor of our time.
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January 4, 2011 12:08am
Manolo

The red-blooded socialist MP rises from the stained sheets:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10697761
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January 4, 2011 7:35am
lilman

Absolutely sick of little piss ants running from police and endangering my family because they do want to face consiquences.
I would make it law that failing to stop means 12 month jail no parole 2 YEAR SAT WORK PROGRAM and all cost met by offender PLUS surrender of car ,IM SICK OF THIS SHIT!!!!!!!!
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January 5, 2011 8:44pm
best Anti aging Foods

best Anti aging Foods

General Debate 03 January 2011 | Kiwiblog
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September 8, 2014 4:19am
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General Debate 03 January 2011 | Kiwiblog
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