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December 9, 2010 8:56am by David Farrar

General Debate 9 December 2010

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General Debate

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hj

On pretty much any morning in Jomtien Beach, you can take an early stroll on the beach and find it carpeted with garbage. On Pattaya Beach, schools of dead fish and jellyfish have been washing up on shore for the past several weeks. Even seas off of Pattaya’s Near Islands are lime green and frothing with slimy good brought on by huge over populations of plankton feeding on the garbage in the water.

Inland the situation isn’t much different. Leave your windows open for more than a day or two and you’ll find your high-rise condo covered in greenish-black soot. Mammoth tour buses clog the streets and our lungs with their billowing diesel clouds. Sewers overflow during rainstorms, belching up feces and all manner of crap onto the streets. And, in Pattaya, every street or alleyway is a trashcan.
Quite simply, runaway development killed Pattaya. And it’s doing the same all over Thailand.
http://www.bangkokdiaries.com/2008/07/08/overdevelopment-killed-pattaya-phuket-is-koh-chang-next/

Up the road in Queenstown, nature is in full flight.

Queenstown advertises itself as “The Adventure Capital of the World,” where you can bungy jump, heli-ski, jet-boat, or sky-dive. The confines of the modest town can no longer accommodate the throng of thrill-seekers. Soaring mountains still fringe the lake, but condos are creeping along the shore, a snake of traffic clogs the road into town, and Louis Vuitton has set up shop along with Global Culture, a clothes store.

If your idea of a holiday is a seething mass of cars and people, topped off by a cacophony of helicopters, Queenstown may be for you. Otherwise, it serves only as a warning of the perils of overdevelopment.

“Queenstown used to be nice, but it’s a mess, now,” Verduyn says, as we continue our trip down the Upper Clutha. “We don’t want to get like that.”

He points out a bunker-like private dwelling atop a bluff, and shakes his head.

“It was a disaster to put that building in there,” he says. “People from all over the world are coming here seeking a wilderness, a sanctuary. The worst-case scenario is that we damage the environment, which brings people to New Zealand in the first place.”

http://www.boston.com/travel/articles/2004/11/07/new_zealand_at_a_crossroads/
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December 9, 2010 9:02am
kaya

Fresh snapper on toast for brekkie……nice.
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December 9, 2010 9:03am
Jimbob

Record low temperature at Cancun on Dec 7th of 53 deg F, for this time of year. They are not having much luck on selecting a venue for this circus.
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December 9, 2010 9:05am
Inventory2

It looks like another one of Chris Carter’s prophesies has been proved correct …

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/12/trouble-at-tmill-in-manurewa.html
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December 9, 2010 9:07am
Rick Rowling

Hey DPF – about we have 2 daily discussions …

(1) General Discussion

(2) AGW is a conspiracy and believers are naive / AGW is real and deniers are evil – Daily Discussion
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December 9, 2010 9:11am
MT_Tinman

hj, I fail to see why you posted the piece of Pommy writer’s fiction.

Was there a reason?
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December 9, 2010 9:12am
Rodders

Inventory2 says “It looks like another one of Chris Carter’s prophesies has been proved correct …”

As if Chris Carter had anything to do with it. He is nothing more than a blabber.
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December 9, 2010 9:20am
Lucia Maria

There is an article in today’s Dominion Post by Don Carson, the acting chief executive of NZ Islamic Meat Management, where he argues that the Jewish community should not have an exemption from animal welfare rules to allow for Shechita slaughter.

I doubt that a Halal certifier is neutral on this issue.

I find myself revolted that an article of this type has made it into the paper. It’s akin to someone of Islamic faith gloating, while feigning an interest that animals don’t suffer. I look forward to an opinion piece by Don Carson on the barbaric Islamic practice of stoning. But then that’s human beings, so I don’t expect him to bother.
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December 9, 2010 9:21am
shady

Rick Rowling 9.11am. YES!!! I was thinking exactly the same yesterday – however – I thought 3 GD headings.

(1) General Discussion

(2) AGW is a conspiracy and believers are naive / AGW is real and deniers are evil – Daily Discussion

(3) Religious debate. God exists. No he doesn’t. Allah is great.

Leave GD for just that – GD.
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December 9, 2010 9:21am
hj

As with Thailand in order to facilitate growth foriegn buyers and more tourists are needed.

”
(Greg Ross) Who’s buying here at the moment?
(Wayne Foley): “There’s still a lot of overseas interest in Queenstown.”
(David Broomfield): “Locals are struggling to get in. Buyers are usually Australians picking up a second home.””

[“that’s because the Australians value them more” – an economists rationale.]

The choice is expensive or tacky (no kiwi baches)?:
“There’s a misconception about low land prices; the important thing is to add value to the land when you develop it. When land prices are unrealistically low they actually reduce developers ability to do a good job, because they have no margin to re-invest in the product. The reality is, developers can only do the extras because a margin allows them to: with this gone it’s a downward spiral and there is a risk Queenstown will only attract developers who are prepared to undertake very basic unattractive development. That would be very unfortunate for Queenstown.”

(Wayne Foley): “Yes, the Council needs to seriously look at what incentive$ they can put into the marketplace to stimulate quality build outcomes.”

They don’t bring new sewage systems with them:
“The biggest cost that the public doesn’t really see is the $38k development levy. It’s the key barrier to the market; it makes it difficult to make anything out of a new-build.”

(Alastair Porter): “We need to grow the economy, to grow the town. This obviously includes tourism but there are also opportunities here to do other things. It’s about creating revenue rather than just focusing on costs. Then, as more people come to live and work here, houses will sell and that bolsters the property market, and broadens the rating base.”

And then we need to do it all again or we have people out of work.
http://locationsblog.co.nz/2010/07/05/greg-ross-talks-to-queenstown-property-developers/
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December 9, 2010 9:22am
Manolo

Key’s treasonous government continues the selling out of New Zealand. Not far from institutionalised racism.

The review is part of a confidence and supply agreement between National and the Maori Party.
Dr Sharples said the constitutional review would be a chance to look at how New Zealand’s legal and political systems could better incorporate Maori.

“I know Maori want to talk about the place of the Treaty of Waitangi in our consultation, and how our legal and political systems can reflect Tikanga Maori,”

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10692881
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December 9, 2010 9:23am
sbk

frigging hilarious….It seems the esteemed and knowledgeable delegates at Cancun want to ban the use of Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO)…..from,Whats up with that,

..”Despite the apparently not-so-obvious reference to H2O, almost every delegate that collegian students approached signed their petition to ban that all too dangerous substance, which contributes to the greenhouse effect, is the major substance in acid rain, and is fatal if inhaled”.

…says it all really.
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December 9, 2010 9:30am
hj

# MT_Tinman (1,163) Says:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:12 am

hj, I fail to see why you posted the piece of Pommy writer’s fiction.

Was there a reason?
……………………….
Values.
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December 9, 2010 9:31am
pollywog

…not wanting to spam as i posted this in yesterdays GD not long ago but more suited here.

chur

UMBRELLAS UP…froth froth

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4438237/Sammy-Wongs-search-for-roots-linked-to-factory-visit-train-deal

Translation : SAMMY and PANSY WONG = SYSTEMIC PERK ABUSERS !!!

and yes, you’d still have to be a total fuckwit to think otherwise and an even bigger one ( if thats at all possible) to think it’s muckraking to continue to search for the truth on this matter…

we deserve so much more than what Huge McPhailure could be bothered unearthing and wayyy more accountability from Key as leader in charge of keeping his house in order. be nice to see that smirk wiped of lockjaws face for once

ZERO FUCKING TOLERANCE !!!
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December 9, 2010 9:37am
hj

“I know Maori want to talk about the place of the Treaty of Waitangi in our consultation, and how our legal and political systems can reflect Tikanga Maori,”

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10692881

Bring it on , place it in front of the public for long enough so that people see what is really meant behind the language.
The truth is that the treaty is and never was the “foundation stone of the nation”. it was only a foundation stone as long as it didn’t carry more than a few cartons of crap from the Waitangi tribunal. The treaty was signed when there were only 2000 Europeans and up to 100,000 Maori with a martial culture at a time when it took at least 6 months for a letter to be answered. The foundation stone of our nation is the fact that we are here (in great numbers) and what ever other factors that hold us together such as cross-pollination. Note it is the nasties on the left who are opposed to assimilation; they see a way to opt out of our society into a new utopia.
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December 9, 2010 9:46am
tom hunter

Meanwhile it’s popcorn time for watchers of the US political scene with two delicious pieces:

Obama has no confidence in Democratic leadership on Capitol Hill

I would think Nancy and Harry might have a few things to say in return about a President who pretty much sat on his ass providing no leadership on either the Porkulus or health insurance bills until it came time to try and sell both abortions to the US public.

Why Obama can’t shake Bush

I’m sure most far-lefters will claim that they always saw this coming with George W Obama, but they were awfully quiet during 2008.
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December 9, 2010 9:48am
MyNameIsJack

Every time a new law impinges on liberty, the government and its apparatchiks say “If you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide”.

Odd how they don’t like Julian Assange applying the same ideal to them.
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December 9, 2010 10:16am
hj

The only problem I have with Wikileaks is that (as during the Vietnam war) it is one sided. When will we have wikileaks from Iran or China or Saudi Arabia?
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December 9, 2010 10:22am
tom hunter

“If you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide”.

I use that phrase every time a helicopter from Environment Waikato flies over my farm.

The funny thing is that I’ve never been able to get any Green or leftist to share my concerns. It’s almost as if there’s a double standard being applied when it comes to a state enforcing laws that Greens and Leftists love.
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December 9, 2010 10:27am
Rodders

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4439379/Labour-to-turn-its-back-on-foreshore-bill

anyone surprised?
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December 9, 2010 10:42am
hj

Re Pansy Wong
“Recently, Wenzhou’s Fortune Weekly conducted a survey of local millionaires. One question was: If forced to choose between your business and your family, which would it be? Of the respondents, 60 percent chose business, and 20 percent chose family. The other 20 percent couldn’t make up their minds.”
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/06/instant-cities/hessler-text/2

(Wayne Foley): “The Australian market is all we need. I wonder why we bother marketing to international markets clearly in major recession, like Europe. Or to share-volume markets (like parts of Asia) that contribute little to the local economy, save a couple of tourist operators.”
http://locationsblog.co.nz/2010/07/05/greg-ross-talks-to-queenstown-property-developers/
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December 9, 2010 10:44am
hj

“Labour is preparing to pull its support for the replacement foreshore and seabed legislation, with leader Phil Goff branding it a ”farce” that will not provide a lasting solution. ”

It is like Cadbury’s find the gold bar competition except that Maori will be very good at finding the gold bars (wahi tapu).
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December 9, 2010 10:50am
Pete George

“When will we have wikileaks from Iran or China or Saudi Arabia?”

When someone with access to information there leaks it? They might be a bit more worried about possible consequences in places like that.

Recent wikileaks have not been very complementary about Russia.
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December 9, 2010 10:53am
hj

Catherine Delahunty:
“I explained that as a Pakeha I had a very limited relationship with the foreshore and seabed but “loved the beach” generally. This did not compare well to the 1000 years of whakapapa and site specific responsibilities that Betty and her hapu maintain to this day. Yet she had been refused a chance to speak. I also waved a copy of Te Tiriti around in a flamboyant manner.
Betty talked very clearly about her people and their relationship to their foreshore and how Te Tiriti reaffirms their customary rights, therefore the Bill cannot pass. She is 71 years old and has given her whole life to kaitiakitanga. It was a privilege to be beside her. It was also great to have Tariana and Metiria at the table emanating their respect and love for her korero. From the window we could see across to Hauraki and Te Moehau the mountain shining on the horizon as she rises up from Tikapa Moana.
Then Gordon Jackman, wearing his “qualified archaeologist” hat took the Committee on a journey from a beach of sand and shells through to the 1868 Deed of Cession on the East Coast, wherein the foreshore and seabed were never ceded. He explained how from the archaeological layers they uncovered at the Port of Gisborne, you can see people arriving, establishing manawhenua and adapting to population expansion from within their cultural framework, and then the violent imposition of Pakeha power in that place. Gordon challenged the committee to re assess their limited understanding of the term “ownership” and to recognise that the Bill was a continuation of Crown violence based on a crude and absurd underestanding of the word”ownership” He described the process as part of “democratheid” a word he has coined which describes the majority imposition of racist policy in a democrarcy. He also described the consequences as not civil war in the conventional sense but a long term proliferation of misery, poverty, misunderstanding and injustice.
http://www.greens.org.nz/misc-documents/diary-debacle-archive-6th-september-15th-september
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December 9, 2010 10:54am
Lucia Maria

Manolo and hj,

And then there is the Dom Post article on page A2 called Review studies longer term of office. In the article is this most interesting (unfortunately not direct quote) by Pita Sharples:

Dr Sharples said one of the reasons for excluding republicanism from the terms of reference [for the constitutional review] was because it was not a high priority for Maori … he hoped the review would focus on other matters, such as legal recognition of Maori customs.

I’m not for republicanism myself, I’m just amazed that Sharples may have admitted that the terms of reference given for the review were set by what was high priority for Maori.
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December 9, 2010 11:04am
Pete George

LM, the way I it some of the terms of reference were influenced by what was not a high priority for Maori. And that Sharples hoped the review will look at what is high priority. Doesn’t seem unusual to me.
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December 9, 2010 11:09am
grumpyoldhori

hj nasties on the left who are opposed to assimilation ?
You seem confused dear boy, it is we on the left who practice assimilation, example, my wife is pakeha, yes yes I realise it was white of me to marry a pakeha.

Yet, one from the right a pakeha of course sent his daughter a letter stating how disgusting he found it that she would be sharing a bed with a Maori.
Now he is whining to his lawyer that he has never seen nor will he ever see his grandchildren.
Too bad oh dear.
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December 9, 2010 11:18am
Grendel

it always irks me how empty headed people like Mad Catherine and others will use a maori word in an english sentence when an english word will do fine.

are they trying to make it seem more important because they used maori? is maori now a point of emphasis?

reading HJ’s post i wonder why they cannot use “the treaty” instead of “te tiriti”, family instead of hapu, children instead of korero.

it really does strike me that by using a maori word they are trying to make something more than the mundane reality it is. hapu sounds more mystical and important than family, whakapapa more weighted with grandiose than history for example.

otoh, it could just be that catherine is barking mad and is not sure what planet she is on anyway. i guess its better than her singing again 🙂
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December 9, 2010 11:24am
tom hunter

….it is we on the left who practice assimilation, example, my wife is pakeha, yes yes I realise it was white of me to marry a pakeha.

Hate to tell you this, but the modern left dumped that idea in favour of multiculturalism about forty years ago. Assimilation is merely a tool used by right-wingers to maintain their capitalist, imperialist and racist hegemony and control of society.

Ask pollywog.

But thanks for doing your bit.
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December 9, 2010 11:27am
grumpyoldhori

tom hunter, to maintain their capitalist, imperialist and racist hegemony ?
Does not work so well then does it when the kids are shall we say, a bit off white.
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December 9, 2010 11:38am
tom hunter

It’s not my theory Grumpy, it’s a left-wing theory.

And you’ve glimpsed the insanity inside it. Perhaps it will cause you to think further about the ideology that produced it.

Well done that man.
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December 9, 2010 11:43am
Pete George

Does the current Wikileaks represent “the first really sustained confrontation between the established order and the culture of the internet. There have been skirmishes before, but this is the real thing.”?

And as the backlash unfolds – first with deniable attacks on internet service providers hosting WikiLeaks, later with companies like Amazon and eBay and PayPal suddenly “discovering” that their terms and conditions preclude them from offering services to WikiLeaks, and then with the US government attempting to intimidate Columbia students posting updates about WikiLeaks on Facebook – the intolerance of the old order is emerging from the rosy mist in which it has hitherto been obscured. The response has been vicious, co-ordinated and potentially comprehensive, and it contains hard lessons for everyone who cares about democracy and about the future of the net.

There is a delicious irony in the fact that it is now the so-called liberal democracies that are clamouring to shut WikiLeaks down.

Consider, for instance, how the views of the US administration have changed in just a year. On 21 January, secretary of state Hillary Clinton made a landmark speech about internet freedom, in Washington DC, which many people welcomed and most interpreted as a rebuke to China for its alleged cyberattack on Google. “Information has never been so free,” declared Clinton. “Even in authoritarian countries, information networks are helping people discover new facts and making governments more accountable.”

She went on to relate how, during his visit to China in November 2009, Barack Obama had “defended the right of people to freely access information, and said that the more freely information flows the stronger societies become. He spoke about how access to information helps citizens to hold their governments accountable, generates new ideas, and encourages creativity.” Given what we now know, that Clinton speech reads like a satirical masterpiece.

Wikileaks seems to be turning a few “ideals” on their head.
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December 9, 2010 11:44am
tom hunter

“When will we have wikileaks from Iran or China or Saudi Arabia?”

When someone with access to information there leaks it? They might be a bit more worried about possible consequences in places like that.
…
Wikileaks seems to be turning a few “ideals” on their head

Of course when “ideals” can only be applied in one direction….

“Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me.'””

Mind you, I can understand the Guardian’s need to direct the narrative onto a different path (but still steering by their North Star of American Not Free, America Hypocrite, America Bad!) – given that the Wikileaks release has destroyed two common themes of recent years from the Western Left:
– that the Iranian nuclear “threat” is just another story trumped up by America.
– that the North Korean “threat” is the same and that China stands with them in solidarity.

Heh, heh, heh.
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December 9, 2010 11:59am
pollywog

Assimilation is merely a tool used by right-wingers to maintain their capitalist, imperialist and racist hegemony and control of society.

Ask pollywog.

actually we’ve re territorialised the word. Assimilation is now a tool used by modern Pasifikans to reassert our inherent cultural superiority

the action you describe Tom Hunter is Futility 🙂
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December 9, 2010 12:03pm
MikeNZ

Lucia Maria (523) Says:
December 9th, 2010 at 9:21 am

It’s nothing I don’t expect from the DOMPOST.
after all they had a pseudo priest photo fronting a byline called “Honest to God” which was anything but.
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December 9, 2010 12:05pm
tom hunter

The hen is the wisest of all the animal creation because she never cackles until after the egg has been laid.
A Lincoln
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December 9, 2010 12:09pm
Fletch

Gee, thanks Obama –

Gitmo Recidivism Rate Soars
A new report by the DNI shows the number of GTMO detainees returning to jihad has doubled in last two years.

150 former Guantanamo detainees are either “confirmed or suspected of reengaging in terrorist or insurgent activities,” according to a new intelligence assessment released by the Director of National Intelligence’s office on Tuesday. In total, 598 detainees have been transferred out of U.S. custody at Guantanamo. 1 out of every 4, or 25 percent, of these former detainees is now considered a confirmed or suspected recidivist by the U.S. government.

MORE

The man’s a ****** idiot.
What did he think they were going to do once released? Give up their ideology because the nice leader of the US let them go? That they’d feel some kind of gratitude?
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December 9, 2010 12:23pm
Luc Hansen

The Revenge of the Nerds

visa.com is down after coming under attack from Wikileaks supporters.

Bloody good job.
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December 9, 2010 12:24pm
Luc Hansen

And Mastercard.

Of course, Ddos attacks are illegal, so we couldn’t possibly express our delight at this revenge, could we?
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December 9, 2010 12:31pm
Fletch

Luc, and you think this is good? I don’t see it as a “bloody good job”. I see it as a case of liberals who can’t STAND the fact that they or wikileaks could possibly be wrong and go on the attack to destroy those they disagree with. It’s the same with Liberals and leftists everywhere – the notion that they could possibly be wrong can’t even enter their tiny little minds.

That’s the big difference with conservatives. Most conservatives make an argument, backed up with facts and desire to get into a dialogue, which is largely ignored by Liberals, whose only response is violence, smearing, and attacks.

Pathetic.
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December 9, 2010 12:39pm
Luc Hansen

Um, Fletch, Operation Payback is about retaliation.

The US government is the nasty here, not supporters of Wikileaks.
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December 9, 2010 12:46pm
joana

Pollywog…I am with you on the Wongs..it is only a matter of time and more digging..I have been married into a large Chinese clan for years now…There is never any separation between personal and business..whilst on personal trips they are always looking for ”opportunities .” This is the norm. They do have a very strict separation between family and friends..You can be married into a family for decades and never meet anyone’s friends..Home is for family…friends are entertained in restaurants.
Lucia Maria…Is that the ex communist party , Vic Uni Don Carson? He has held the same views for years..
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December 9, 2010 12:53pm
joana

The American who leaked all the files is a homosexual who was making some kind of protest about the DADT policy..Where is he now?
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December 9, 2010 12:55pm
Luc Hansen

How come everyone here is so quiet on the PISA 2009 results?

Chris Barton does a pretty good analysis: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10482412

I would add to his analysis only that one reason why we have maintained the same high standards as before NCEA, he forgets that all countries have been making education a priority, so to hold our placings is a good performance.

Many myths are dispelled in the report. Voucher systems, national standards, pay for performance all seem to be red herrings. What it shows is that the best teachers are committed to their calling.

We don’t need the moronic and Stalinist National Standards dumbing down our primary school kids education to understand where we should be, and are, applying extra effort – while the government cuts programme after programme designed to do just that.

The main conclusion to be drawn from the report, to me, is that our teaching profession actually knows what it is doing.
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December 9, 2010 12:56pm
Pete George

The hen is the wisest of all the animal creation because she never cackles until after the egg has been laid.

Maybe they should wait until they hatch.
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December 9, 2010 1:05pm
Luc Hansen

And as Cancun predictably winds down with no achievements to trumpet, the planet continues to heat up towards a catastrophe for our children and grandchildren.

I saw Tim Grosser said New Zealand’s position at the conference is firmly in the mainstream. I think we will find he means the mainstream of rich, white nations who largely created the problem in the first place and are now desperately trying to force the developing (and undeveloped) nations to carry the cost of reducing emissions.

He doesn’t understand that the time for cute diplomatic nuances is fast running out.

Even the Herald gets in on the denial bandwagon by referring to a WMO scientist as a global warming “advocate.” I actually haven’t seen any scientist advocate warming – quite the opposite, they are horrified at the implications.

Mathew Hooten referred to AGW as a theory. That is just idiotic. The carbon cycle and the effects on the planet are now well known and credible debate is about the extent of the effects. To dismiss observed science as theory is just grossly dumb. It’s like the people who try to say evolution is a theory. It’s not. Evolution is observed fact. The theory is Natural or Random selection. The original title of Darwin’s groundbreaking book was: “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection.”

Having said that, it’s hard to disagree with his statements that we need to concentrate on adaptation, including preparing to ward off hordes of refugees. Well, yes. Surely we could put down the Indonesian army by lunchtime? Without even raising a sweat?

I’d like to see Tim Grosser negotiate our way of that one!

However, I still hope that the world will come to its senses, perhaps faint hope.

Finally, a word about RNZ’s Brian Crump’s infantile comments on the topic. Last week he first complained about the carbon footprint of delegates at Cancun (red herring nonsense) and compounded that by saying that God determines the number and intensity of hurricanes.

Science seems to have passed him by in his splendid isolation from reality.

But he’s not alone in that, is he?
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December 9, 2010 1:19pm
tom hunter

catastrophe
…
idiotic
…
infantile
…
spendid isolation from reality
…
desperately
…
And as Cancun predictably winds down with no achievements to trumpet,

Another world control project down the shitter. It’s as if the global left is controlled by Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz

I need more popcorn.
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December 9, 2010 1:44pm
RightNow

I wonder Luc, do you know how they determine what proportion of CO2 in the atmosphere is from human activity? What if it turns out that measure (proportion of c13/c12 isotopes) is unreliable because there are other (non-human) origins of C12 CO2?

What if it is also determined through proper statistical methods that the influence of urbanisation on temperature records is not properly accounted for in homogenising the raw data? That the hand waving scientists who claim the UHI effect only accounts for 0.0056 deg C in the temp records are out by a factor of 100, and that the real UHI signal is actually 0.6 deg in the recent temp records.
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December 9, 2010 1:51pm
RightNow

In other news:
“A new NASA computer modeling effort has found that additional growth of plants and trees in a world with doubled atmospheric carbon dioxide levels would create a new negative feedback – a cooling effect – in the Earth’s climate system that could work to reduce future global warming.”

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/cooling-plant-growth.html
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December 9, 2010 1:58pm
Luc Hansen

In actual fact, RN, in James Hansen’s latest paper, at the behest of peer reviewers, he removed all recordings from populated areas (as determined by satellite light detectors) and found no statistically significant variation in the results.
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December 9, 2010 2:02pm
Pete George

Even more popcorn?

First Mastercard, next Visa, then Palin? She is claiming to be another victim of Operation Payback.

“No wonder others are keeping silent about Assange’s antics. This is what happens when you exercise the First Amendment and speak against his sick, un-American espionage efforts.”

Her speaking out is patriotic, others exercising their First Amendment rights is sick? That’s the implication in her email to ABC’s Tapper – they mustn’t be a part of the MSM she despises, or maybe in this case they’re potentially useful to try and get a piece of the Wikileaks publicity..
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December 9, 2010 2:05pm
RightNow

Luc, satellite light detectors have been shown to be a crap way of determining for urbanisation. Sometimes the co-ordinates for the stations actually map to an area over water, rather than the city they should be measuring light from.
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December 9, 2010 2:06pm
Luc Hansen

So you trust Nasa in your link, but not where it doesn’t suit your purposes.

And here is important information you left out of your post about that Nasa article above: “This feedback slows but does not alleviate the projected warming,” Bounoua said.”
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December 9, 2010 2:17pm
Pete George

Amazon, Paypal, Visa and Mastercard have shown they will withhold their services to anyone they think (or they are told) might “encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity.” (Paypal terms)

Who next? There must be a few other companies and organisations in the world that have done even worse than WikiLeaks.

Is the current tit for tat DDoS attacks just a progression, an unfolding reactive escalation? Or has WikiLeaks really got something in common with bin Laden, and are drawing the US into a quagmire? One thing’s for sure, there’s plenty of eggs flying and faces lining up.
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December 9, 2010 2:20pm
tom hunter

It would seem Palin is in good company…

“[a] strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means.
– Thomas Jefferson

I admit that this argument will merely result in left-wingers furrowing their brows in puzzlement, since to them the sacrifice of the ends to the means is de rigueur.
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December 9, 2010 2:23pm
RightNow

Luc “So you trust Nasa in your link, but not where it doesn’t suit your purposes.” – I don’t trust NASA at all, particularly now when it transpires their ‘arsenic based’ life form most likely was surviving on scraps of phosphorous the whole time, and simply had arsenic stuck to it’s boots.
It is interesting to see that they could be considering more negative feedbacks though, it’s a glimmer of hope that some real science might be underway rather than the pavlovian response to public money we’ve become accustomed to with Climate Science (TM)
And what a delectable quote: “slows but does not alleviate the projected warming”. Here’s something else that slows the projected warming – empirical evidence.
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December 9, 2010 2:25pm
Redbaiter

“The American who leaked all the files is a homosexual who was making some kind of protest about the DADT policy..Where is he now?”

In the Marine Corp brig in Quantico Virginia awaiting trial. Facing charges with a maximum jail term of 52 years. I hope they charge him with a few more that either get him jailed for life or shot. Preferentially the latter.
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December 9, 2010 2:34pm
Luc Hansen

The latest empirical evidence, your denialist mindset notwithstanding, shows that warming is continuing unabated at the rate of .15-.2C per decade since 1970.

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/paper/gistemp2010_summary.pdf
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/paper/gistemp2010_draft0803.pdf

I don’t know why you take comfort at a projected future cooling feedback that results from increasing the global average temperature by 2C, that may eventually decrease that by .3C. And why stop at one doubling? We are not going to magically stop our emissions at that point – at the rate we are going we will suck all the fossil fuel out of the ground and get to three doublings! And that’s not taking into account new discoveries. A fat lot of good your .3C will do then.
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December 9, 2010 2:37pm
Ryan Sproull

That’s the big difference with conservatives. Most conservatives make an argument, backed up with facts and desire to get into a dialogue, which is largely ignored by Liberals, whose only response is violence, smearing, and attacks.

lol
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December 9, 2010 2:42pm
Lucia Maria

Joana,

This guy?

I don’t know if he’s the same person. I’ll keep searching…
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December 9, 2010 2:46pm
Luc Hansen

I know Ryan, I just couldn’t be bothered going there…

For RN, who probably can’t face reading facts as opposed to disseminating his cherished beliefs, a quote from the GISS global temp analysis up to July 2010:

(3) The 12-month running mean global temperature in the GISS analysis has reached a
new record in 2010.

It also states 2010 is likely to be a new calendar year record, even though solar irradiance is at its cyclical low point.
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December 9, 2010 2:49pm
RightNow

Luc, just for today see if you can do this without the ad-hom stuff ok?
So, up until around the middle of the year 2010 was set to be the hottest year on record. We have to remember this is after Gisstemp adjusted 1998 downward, but let’s ignore that and draw a straight line from 1998 to 2010 temperatures on our graph. What do we have? A horizontal line, a trend of zero for 12 years.
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December 9, 2010 2:58pm
Pete George

Tom, what is most at risk here – the country, or secrecy? Do you know what Jefferson had to say about what effect creeping secrecy might have on a country’s wellbeing?

I agree with you (or Jefferson) in principle, I’d break laws or keep or reveal secrets to protect myself, my family, maybe even my country. But there are balances, and there are conflicts – freedom of speech and open government, and protections.

Maybe WikiLeaks have a Jefferson point to make – they may believe that the good of the country and the good of the world is best served by possibly illegal releases of information.

One thing that’s fascinating about all this – the many contradictions and conundrums it presents.
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December 9, 2010 3:00pm
thedavincimode

Shady

There is a fourth: US politics and the adulation of Palin. This is pressing given m’baiter is now out of the sin bin.
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December 9, 2010 3:03pm
hj

grumpyoldhori (1,510) Says:
December 9th, 2010 at 11:18 am

hj nasties on the left who are opposed to assimilation ?
You seem confused dear boy, it is we on the left who practice assimilation, example, my wife is pakeha, yes yes I realise it was white of me to marry a pakeha.
………….
admittedly “nasties of the left” is a loose description but the supporters of Maori nationalism come from groups like Peace Justice Aotearoa

To quote Chris Trotter:
A willingness on the part of Pakeha leftists to be guided by the Maori nationalist advocates of tino rangatiratanga had by the mid-1980s become the litmus test of authentic revolutionary praxis. As proof of their commitment to the cause of the tangata whenua individuals and institutions were required to elevate Te Tiriti o Waitangi to the status of holy writ.
http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2010_05_01_archive.html

Quoting Toad of the Green Party:

1. toad (2295) Says:
May 30th, 2010 at 4:42 pm

She is right, but in pushing the Foreshore and Seabed Act through, she pandered to the racism she now criticises. The principled thing would have been to make a stand for the rule of law and the right to test ownership in the court, attack the racists who were stirring up trouble (I seem to recall one Nick Smith was at the forefront of that), and try to move the country on from the legacy of colonialism and assimilationist policies.

Instead, she gave succour to the racists, and the credibility of despicable arseholes like Lhaws, which should be nil, was inadvertently enhanced by Clark.

That will be her legacy.

Unfortunately, with Key unilaterally abrogating the Tuhoe settlement, which had been negotiated in good faith by his own Minister Finlayson, he has demonstrated he is no better than Clark. An his “cannibal” reference is in the same league as her “haters and wreckers”.

I am fearful for race relations in this country, because no Prime Minister seems to be prepared to take a principled stand on Treaty issues and provide the leadership to bring Pakeha New Zealanders with them. The failure to do so is likely to give rise to greater radicalism and agitation by those who have been dispossessed of their property rights.

================
toad (2295) Says:
May 30th, 2010 at 6:54 pm

@hj 6:41 pm

What exactly do the Greens think will happen by vesting control of the foreshore and seabed in the hands of iwi and hapu Toad?

Justice! And goodwill between the peoples of our country hj.

But it should be vested in them only if they can demonstrate continuous customary ownership, or if it was alienated from them by a rip-off. There is some foreshore and seabed that has found its way into private hands by legitimate means. Iwi and hapu have no claim to that.
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December 9, 2010 3:03pm
wreck1080

Legal aid should have some limits.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4440474/Knock-for-womens-fight-against-eviction

These gang associates have cost the government at least 150k in trying to evict them. They have likely been given many thousands in legal aid .

If they were income earners, they would have given up a long time ago and just accepted the eviction , due to the high cost of litigation.

So, why are these horrible people granted greater rights than someone who pays taxes and is not a leech from society?

It is ludicrous, entirely bought about by the welfare culture where people have a sense of entitlement for doing nothing.

But I err on one point, these people are not doing nothing- they are raising a whole new generation of clones to also become criminals and societal rejects. 13 of them, it’s atrocious, why can’t they just stop bumping uglies?
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December 9, 2010 3:10pm
DJP6-25

[Redbaiter 2:34] A few days in the a Marine Corps brig, and he’ll soon wish they had shot him.

PS: I’ve read your new blog, and will keep doing so.

cheers

Dsvid Prosser
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December 9, 2010 3:49pm
tom hunter

One thing that’s fascinating about all this – the many contradictions and conundrums it presents.

Oh I quite agree. I actually don’t have much of a problem with the release of diplomatic cables (diplomats in private give frank, honest and sometimes nasty assessments of the people they deal with – who knew?). Seemed more like tabloid gossip to me.

However, even in that case, did Assange really think it was a good idea for the North Koreans to find out what their Chinese patrons think of them and their future? Powder keg plus match.

And I certainly do have a problem with the release of the Afghan stuff – that definitely had the potential to get people killed by the Taliban. Not just death there either:
75 year old man escapes across Iranian border. As the WSJ quoted Vahedi:

“This is very bad for my family,” Dr. Vahedi told the New York Daily News on being told about the leak of the cable naming him and describing his exploits. Tehran has a new excuse to target his relatives in Iran. “How could this be printed?”

Indeed. If Assange was an American citizen and willing to face up to the consequences then I would be more inclined to treat him as a principled advocate of free speech even if I disagreed with what he did. But he’s an Australian who has made it quite clear that he wants the US (and the rest of UN force would follow) out of Afghanistan.

He’s not anti-war, pro-peace or pro-freedom of information. He’s on the side of those who want to hurt me, you, Dr Vahedi and our Western societies, and that’s not even – per Orwell – “objectively”. To Assange we’re all Dr Vahedi and we’re all just as much collateral damage as we supposedly are for the USA.
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December 9, 2010 4:14pm
kowtow

tom hunter@223

Salus populi suprema lex esto.

Cicero
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December 9, 2010 4:14pm
tom hunter

Yeah – well that can be perverted too Kowtow. Every leftist I’ve ever known has pushed their ideas as being for the good of the people – so much so that sometimes the people’s current ignorant opinions just have to be over-ridden by small groups of elite experts who know better.

In this case we’ll probably actually see some real democracy in action – in that we will see whether the numbers and activism of people on the Web who think Assange is out to deliberately hurt us, outnumber those Web activists who think what he did was just great.
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December 9, 2010 4:20pm
big bruv

Sitting in the public gallery of Parliament the other day I happened to look over the balcony and discovered to my shock that I was sitting above Mad Delahunty.

The question I have is this…….was it wrong of me to have an overwhelming desire to want to spit over that balcony?
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December 9, 2010 4:35pm
RightNow

yes bb, it was, unless you had the excuse of an empty bladder
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December 9, 2010 4:37pm
Redbaiter

“A few days in the a Marine Corps brig, and he’ll soon wish they had shot him. PS: I’ve read your new blog, and will keep doing so.”

Thanks David. Note how the Assange adoring media are playing down why the documents were released in the first place. For those who don’t know, it was because Manning (the releaser) is a homosexual and he wanted to make some kind of protest against the American military “don’t ask don’t tell” protocols. Some homosexuals (Manning included) want the right to be openly and flagrantly homosexual in the Armed forces.
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December 9, 2010 6:09pm
Pete George

Is the popcorn gone by lunchtime?

Mark Arbib for AUS or US?

Power seeks power. Arbib has wandered along the well trodden path of the Right of the Labor Party cultivating relationships with the world’s most significant superpower never imagining that his conversations with American diplomats would become public.

Poor old Mark Arbib.

Bad old WikiLeaks. It’s nasty. It’s unfair.

Should the Right to secrecy apply here?

RB, how do you know Manning is the releaser of all of this?
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December 9, 2010 6:15pm
RRM

Some homosexuals (Manning included) want the right to be openly and flagrantly homosexual in the Armed forces.

Do you really think gay soldiers will be so busy bumming each other that they won’t bother killing the enemy? My god you’re a joke.

You’re this joke, in fact:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/repeal-of-dont-ask-dont-tell-paves-way-for-gay-sex,17698/
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December 9, 2010 6:18pm
big bruv

Hey Red;

Have you managed to come up with that one thing you have achieved in your ten year ‘war’ against commies and pinko’s as yet?
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December 9, 2010 6:18pm
Johnboy

“The question I have is this…….was it wrong of me to have an overwhelming desire to want to spit over that balcony?”

Yes. You are obviously deeply disturbed.

The majority of people in that position would get a strong desire to have a long and satisfying crap. 🙂
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December 9, 2010 6:20pm
joana

Lucia Maria
Yes it is the same Don Carson…personable enough to meet..but an extreme commie from his students days…Many in his age group were brainwashed into this at NZ Unis..some later discarded these ideas..others committed suicide..and people like Don Carson , Len Richards etc still strongly maintain these views so naturally he would be anti Isreal.
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December 9, 2010 6:20pm
wat dabney

It is an essential element of the alarmist creed – crooks and liars like Hansen – to deny there is any appreciable urban heat island effect. Obviously this doesn’t even pass the smell test. How stupid do they think we are?

Even a child can show this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcsvaCPYgcI
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December 9, 2010 6:21pm
tom hunter

Is the popcorn gone by lunchtime?

Consumption is outpacing production at the moment:

The night Chris Matthews told the truth

BOXER: Well it is great to see you, again Chris. Congratulations on beating CNN in the ratings.

MATTHEWS: It is like Cleveland beating the Carolina Panthers. But thanks. The president just cut a deal with the Republicans on the tax package. Why so glum, chum?

BOXER: Because this compromise extends the tax cuts for millionaires. This is unfair. Millionaires should pay more.

MATTHEWS: You say millionaires. You mean like you? You are worth at least one million dollars, more likely five million.

BOXER: What? But, but, but, Republicans are for the wealthy rich. I am a liberal and we are for the poor.
…
…
…
BOXER: But the Republicans are even richer.

MATTHEWS: Eight of the ten richest people in Congress are Democrats, and not Republicans.

BOXER: Well, I meant people who make a million dollars a year.

MATTHEWS: You mean like me? I make five million dollars a year.

BOXER: Really? Given your ratings, you should be lucky to make minimum wage.

MATTHEWS: Really. I get five million a year. Do you wish to know my secret?

BOXER: Please.

MATTHEWS: By never ever pressing rich white limousine liberals like you on the hypocrisy of your rhetoric.

BOXER: Oh?

MATTHEWS: Yes. My employer — GE — pays zero taxes to the USA and GE wants to keep people like you from making a big deal about it.

BOXER: How do they do that?

MATTHEWS: By hiring fools like me who will never call hypocrites like you on the B S you feed the masses. But since this is Xtra Normal Land, I can say what I always wanted to say to someone like you.

Roll on CGI characters that look like the real thing. Perhaps I should post this Xtra Normal Land video on the Lan of Oz thread as it’s such a good fit.
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December 9, 2010 6:28pm
dad4justice

“Have you managed to come up with that one thing you have achieved in your ten year ‘war’ against commies and pinko’s as yet?”

I think red has more than highlighted you big blouse – as the most cowardly jerk on kiwiblog. Such a gutless creep like you are beyond a sick joke.
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December 9, 2010 6:28pm
Redbaiter

D4J, don’t waste your time with him. He’s just another Palin / Christian hating homosexual. They’re around Kiwiblog like flies around a rubbish tip.
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December 9, 2010 6:35pm
big bruv

And out of the shadows come the stalkers…..
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December 9, 2010 6:35pm
big bruv

Come on Red, you claim that your ten year campaign has achieved “lots”.

All I want is for you to tell me one thing you have achieved, surely it cannot be that hard?

Or…..are you telling lies Redbaiter?
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December 9, 2010 6:37pm
dad4justice

The big blouse fly is rather a sick and sad unit. It is a huge asset for the left.
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December 9, 2010 6:40pm
Pete George

Redbaiter at 6:09 pm: “Note how the Assange adoring media are playing down why the documents were released in the first place. For those who don’t know, it was because Manning (the releaser)….”

Who has “released” what documents is still a secret, maybe that information will be released in due course. At the moment it’s only conjecture.

IN the past 11 days, WikiLeaks has published just 1112 of the 250,000 secret diplomatic cables in its possession.

Might take quite a while, unless they are heavily censoring them.
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December 9, 2010 6:43pm
nickb

Tauhei, sorry I missed your informative post the other night.

Do you perceive anything else as being of value in the new LTC regime? One of the obvious downside is the change to the depreciation recovery rules.
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December 9, 2010 6:49pm
Redbaiter

The stash of documents, whether individually released at the moment or not, was originally passed to Assange by Manning. Man its boring correcting such never ending miscomprehensions.
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December 9, 2010 6:56pm
Grant Michael McKenna

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/geotags-and-social-networking.htm
An interesting description of the problems that geo-tagging can cause.
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December 9, 2010 7:02pm
big bruv

“Note how the Assange adoring media”

Where is this “Assange adoring media”?

Most of the media outlets I have seen have taken a surprisingly neutral line, for once they are reporting the events and not giving us their opinion, the rest of the media are calling for the prick to be charged with treason (as he should be)

Seriously Redbaiter, there is no need to make shit up.
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December 9, 2010 7:03pm
Pete George

I presume you mean passed to Wikileaks. There is more to Wikileaks than Assange.

How are you sure Manning leaked all the documents? If he leaked some or all, how do you know Manning is what and who is being reported? There could be some secrets you (and just about everyone) don’t know. Who is really behind all this?

Manning’s charges are still just allegations, with not a lot of detail made known

You persist with birthing nonsense over and over but you just accept “Manning did everything, on his own” without question?
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December 9, 2010 7:07pm
Manolo

Armstrong slams the racists and the spineless: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10693057
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December 9, 2010 7:09pm
Johnboy

McLeod comments on Helen’s only lasting legacy. http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/opinion/4439661/Clarks-legacy-brothels-on-the-golden-mile
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December 9, 2010 7:13pm
tom hunter

Perhaps Obama is the leaker?

My Administration is committed to creating an unprecedented level of openness in Government. We will work together to ensure the public trust and establish a system of transparency, public participation, and collaboration. Openness will strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness in Government.

Transparency promotes accountability and provides information for citizens about what their Government is doing.

Just sayin….
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December 9, 2010 7:16pm
Pete George

Who knows, there’s a lot of subsubterfuge that goes on.

Funny thing – Osama is anti Wikileaks, he was on TV saying he did what Obama requested – that’s the Paypal Osama of course.
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December 9, 2010 7:23pm
wat dabney

Johnboy,

Helen’s lasting legacy is a bit more freedom?
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December 9, 2010 7:24pm
Johnboy

True. Freedom to sell your body to earn enough to pay for your drugs.

Great legacy that.

What a wonderful leader she was.
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December 9, 2010 7:33pm
tom hunter

Looks like those ridiculous right wingnuts have finally allowed their sick fantasies of cold-blooded revenge to take hold and are once again indulging in their primitive ritualistic talk of “traitors”, “spies” and so forth. McCarthyism let loose again….

• Is X in Cabinet? Should he be allowed to be if he’s a spy?

• Absolutely disgusted with the actions of X. He’s a traitor and should be charged.

• this is espionage equivalent industrial esp is serious & min 5 yrs in nick.

• let’s charge X with treason and call him a national traitor
…

Oh wait – that’s the Australian Left wing and they’re talking about the Labor Party’s Mark Arbib.

Heh, heh, heh.
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December 9, 2010 8:11pm
Hurf Durf

Feeling tired, Puke Hansen decides to give himself a holiday, a few weeks somewhere nice and tropical. To Cancun! However, poor Puke Hansen failed to take the necessary precaution when travelling to places such as these: always be careful around rogue cameras. He will rue the day technology allowed this.
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December 9, 2010 8:48pm
Johnboy

That’s not Puke. Looks more like Keith Locke’s gay brother Hurf. 🙂
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December 9, 2010 9:02pm

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