General Debate 7 December 2010

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davidp

This is, errr, odd:

“After nearly 10 years of marriage that produced five children, Mufleh Mohammed of Saudi Arabia still has not seen his wife’s face. Mohammed Hilal, another Saudi husband, could not identify his wife who was killed in a road crash until her veil was put back on her face.”

Full details at http://www.emirates247.com/news/region/saudi-women-s-veil-versus-modernity-2010-12-05-1.325035?
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December 7, 2010 8:05am
Brian Smaller

Better news
http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/major-general-richard-rhys-jones-head-defence-force-134299

A fellow Kapiti Fusilier.
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December 7, 2010 8:16am
Manolo

The racists are divided: some want 100%, others 200% of it!
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10692490
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December 7, 2010 8:20am
MikeMan

Robyn Malcolm – Was deeply involved with the shit that went down over the Hobbit. NZ Heralds response?

Finalist for New Zealander of the Year 😮

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10692549

All I can say is WTF!!!
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December 7, 2010 8:35am
TripeWryter

Heard Keith Locke this morning speaking against the proposals to give the Spooks more powers.

This old Marxist always bemuses me on these sorts of things. The first thing the Russian Bolsheviks did in the so-called revolution of 1917 was get into the Czarist secret police files and compile lists of their enemies. Then they used their secret police to liquidate them.

In 1918 the great mass murderer Lenin abolished a democratically elected parliament because the Bolsheviks didn’t win a majority. Then he and his fellow champions of the oppressed set about stifling dissent by killing the dissenters.

Lists, secret police, spying on people, liquidating the opposition, suppression of human rights on the road to the Communist-Marxist-Socialist paradise on earth … now, you can’t blame Keith Locke for all of those. But he’s an adherent to it.
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December 7, 2010 8:35am
Pete George

Ministries like Ethnic Affairs and Women’s Affairs are just about universally condemned here as a waste of time and money. Why? It’s easy to not like them because they don’t sound useful, or because they sound “PC”. Has anyone actually analysed any of their their good versus cost? Or are they just an easy hit with no justification needed.
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December 7, 2010 8:37am
Doug

Hellen Kelly (CTU) should learn to shut her mouth.

Council of Trade Unions president Helen Kelly said last week Whittall should have apologised and the company may be culpable for the 29 deaths.

Brenda Rackley, partner of Pike River contractor John Hale, said she was “angry and upset”, but had not changed her opinion of Whittall.
“This shouldn’t have happened, but who do I point the finger at?
“We don’t know what happened down there, maybe someone lit a cigarette … He [Whittall] has done a great job so far.
“I can’t direct my anger at anyone yet.”http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4429372/Pike-River-fire-going-out
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December 7, 2010 8:52am
Manolo

Why all these union leaders and professional shit-stirrers share the surname Kelly?
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK1011/S00590/tramways-union-concerned-about-manners-st.htm
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December 7, 2010 8:57am
jag

I am speechless over the Robyn Malcolm nomination. Seriously speechless.

In fact my first words when I saw it on their front page was also “WTF”.

This woman has been the public face of vacuous celebrity trying to influence issues well beyond her.

She, in conjunction with Lucy Lawless, are the New Zealand co-presidents of F.A.G.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chp2u2ln8_E
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December 7, 2010 9:13am
pollywog

did i hear Key say we need more legit ‘puter hacking laws to protect the dignitaries at the 3rd largest sporting event in the world ?…since when did the rugby world cup become so huge ?
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December 7, 2010 9:16am
side show bob

“Ministries like Ethnic Affairs and Women’s Affairs are just about universally condemned here as a waste of time and money.” Why. Fine Pete, if you believe they are Gods gift then you fund them. Otherwise they are just socialist creations producing more captive voters beholding to the state for their lively-hoods. The World survived fine without these parasites I’m sure they wouldn’t be missed.

Meanwhile in more hearting news I see the “climate change” conference is a lame duck, good fucking riddance. And Al Bore is scaling back operations, translation, the prick is running out of money and people are seeing the bullshit artist for what he is. You can just about hear the gashing of teeth from here as all the third world counties realise the money pot at the end of the rainbow is rapidly shrinking. I bet Shonkey and the Mad doctor are beginning to sweet.
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December 7, 2010 9:17am
Offshore_Kiwi

Robyn Malcolm, New Zealander of the Year. Doing her bit to accelerate New Zealand’s slide down the OECD rankings. Not happy with tryng to destroy an industry by leading a few smelly eco-mentalists on a stroll down Queen Street in response to the government’s plan to dig up some of the very valuable stuff that lies under New Zealand soil, she then set about trying to destroy another one by becoming the public face of a nasty and spiteful campaign against an industry that has been grown in New Zealand out of virtually nothing.

What a waste of space this POS is.

And Petie, (although I just know I’m gonna regret getting into a discussion with you) there is something inherently wrong with the government funding groups whose job it is to lobby the government. This includes women, maori, pacific islanders, animals, homosexuals and russian cossak dancers. The government should not need to lobby itself. That’s why government funding of women’s affairs lobbyists, maori affairs lobbyists, russian cossak dancing lobbyists, is wrong. It’s not just wrong, it’s plain stupid.
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December 7, 2010 9:21am
Pete George

ssb, I didn’t say I think they’re anything like God’s gifts, just asking if anyone like you has any substantial criticism, not just the usual (repeated here) vague anti-socialism rant. You must be able to point to something specific.

Offshore, all you do is make a statement, not an argument. It could be easily be claimed that those ministries provide another stronger avenue for voters to be heard in government.
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December 7, 2010 9:25am
first time caller

I too couldn’t believe the nonsense of Robyn Malcolm for NZr of the year. Completely bemused actually, mortified Herald could be so bloody stupid…shouldn’t be so surprised. How insulting to think that ignorant woman could be put on a pedestal as someone we should aspire to be like.

I believe we can vote on this. VOTE HER OFF for goodness sake!
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December 7, 2010 9:27am
pollywog

hmmm yeah…why don’t we have a Ministry for Homosexual Affairs ?

🙂
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December 7, 2010 9:32am
Ryan Sproull

Whoo! Ted Thomas is in there! THE TEDINATOR.
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December 7, 2010 9:33am
southtop

does anyone need any more proof about where the Heralds sympathies lie?
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December 7, 2010 9:37am
pollywog

Lets replace Robyn Malcolm with Peter Whittal for NZer of the year cos man that guy is a bloody hero.

the way he took charge, stalled, obfuscated, witheld information and gave false hope in the early stages of the Pike river deaths all in the name of public safety was truly inspiring stuff !!!
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December 7, 2010 9:37am
MT_Tinman

pollywog (417) Says:
December 7th, 2010 at 9:32 am

hmmm yeah…why don’t we have a Ministry for Homosexual Affairs ?

and make the Labour Party caucus redundant?
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December 7, 2010 9:37am
Offshore_Kiwi

Tinman beat me to it: Polly, we do. Its other name is the Liarbore Party Caucus.

Pete, your logic is astounding. Why should any minority group get influence disproportionate to their ability to vote? This is the only influence the majority gets. Why should there not be a Ministry for the Development of Children of Scottish Immigrants to advocate on my behalf? The short answer is that if they want a voice, they should stand candidates either under a party banner or as independents. Tax dollars should not be used to fund these groups whose only role in life is to lobby the government.
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December 7, 2010 9:40am
Pete George

Offshore, your logic is absent. Many Ministries represent minority interests. Corrections. Agriculture. Defence. Tertiary Education. Courts. Senior Citizens. Trade. Etc etc.

I haven’t offered any logic, I’ve just questioned why some people keep criticising without and substantial supporting information. It doesn’t do any harm to question assumptions, does it?
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December 7, 2010 9:47am
Redbaiter

“Heard Keith Locke this morning speaking against the proposals to give the Spooks more powers.”

He’s always had it in for the SIS. He’s against the west and for its enemies. No wonder he finds a home at the Watermelon Party. It is a disgrace that people who sit in our parliament are effectively assisting in espionage against the USA. These treacherous scum should never ever be within a light year of government, and I am amazed that they ever draw a vote from people who live in the free world.
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December 7, 2010 9:53am
Redbaiter

“It doesn’t do any harm to question assumptions, does it?”

It doesn’t do any harm to suggest answers now and again. An addiction to questions at the expense of solutions demonstrates a mind as undeveloped as that of a small child.
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December 7, 2010 9:57am
RRM

^^^I see you’re remodelling yourself in Philip Ure’s image, Baiter. Whoaring your own page daily on KB in a forlorn effort to drum up a readership for yourself.

From now on I shall call you… Mini Phule. Or maybe just Phool? Hmm, decisions decisions…
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December 7, 2010 9:58am
Pete George

Redbaiter, are you suggesting it’s ok for the government to take more secret powers? You’re fine just to trust that they know best? Ultimately our freedom is protected by giving up freedoms?

You’d be happy for the SIS to have an accumulating file on you? Access to your computer without you knowing?

You’d benefit from questioning some of your own assumptions occasionally.
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December 7, 2010 10:00am
grumpyoldhori

Some laughter in Greymouth, having a mate who is a contractor and a rescue miner I had to point out to him that ACT types believe that contractors on good money should have ACT type political views.
Heh, first time he has ever been speechless.
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December 7, 2010 10:06am
grumpyoldhori

Damn, redbirther confused once more, NZ is not an ally of the septics unlike the Saudis etc.
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December 7, 2010 10:10am
Manolo

Another warmist speaks: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-05/obama-made-big-mistake-on-climate-bill-turner-says-update1-.html
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December 7, 2010 10:14am
Ryan Sproull

The difference between Philu and Redbaiter posting links is that Philu would just quote his (or someone else’s) entire incoherent rant, whereas Red fitted the link into a separate comment.
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December 7, 2010 10:18am
Manolo

Labour trougher caught red-handed as the SMH reports: http://www.smh.com.au/national/mp-linked-to-prostitutes-20101206-18mxe.html
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December 7, 2010 10:23am
Redbaiter

I get (surprisingly) adequate hits without flogging TrueblueNZ on Kiwiblog. The benefit to me is in having an outlet for my views where they can be expressed without the poisonous hatred, misrepresentation and lies that usually accompanies any expression of them here. As RRM and GOH and PG demonstrate so well. Who needs such idiocy?
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December 7, 2010 10:23am
Pete George

Here’s something Redbaiter could ask himself – why he comes here soliciting for his blog when he describes “Kiwiblog of course is nowadays basically a home for left wingers”.

Red, it’s good you have your own outlet for your views, controlled by your own whims. Maybe now when you come here you won’t have to resort to your poisonous hatred, misrepresentation and lies that used to often accompany your posts.
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December 7, 2010 10:26am
Redbaiter

” without the poisonous hatred, misrepresentation and lies that usually accompanies any expression of them here. ”

Oh and (thanks for reminding me Pete) I left out the most annoying one of all- miscomprehension.
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December 7, 2010 10:28am
Pete George

Yes, you were good at that too.

Surprising how you can actually post when you put your mind to expressing yourself instead of attacking others. You can post some interesting stuff – most of it misguided or over the top but much better than your raving rants.
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December 7, 2010 10:29am
Viking2

GOH: Where did you get that shit from?What the hell has ACT got to do with this mine? Gerry’s in charge.
Next you will be nominated for clown of the year. Yep they either come from the South or the A
We can nimate you to the HOOrald if you want.uckland.
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December 7, 2010 10:29am
John Gibson

Redbaiter:- “I get (surprisingly) adequate hits without flogging TrueblueNZ on Kiwiblog. ” Yeah Right!!!

A link from within a Kiwiblog post (effectively an endorsement by DPF) through to a minor blog is worth a huge amount in traffic to that minor blog. I bet “The Pigeon”will be seeing a big spike in traffic today. The link whoring being undertaken by Redbaiter is worth a lot less but will generate some additional traffic from the curious.

Despite Redbaiter’s distaste for “pinko’s”, “atheist’s” & “homo’s” at Kiwiblog he is a pragmatist and needs the traffic.

What I am curious about is the reappearance of Redbaiter coinciding with his disappearance from Crusader Rabbit and his appearance at his own blog.
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December 7, 2010 10:33am
kowtow

This morning Al Jazeera featured a climate change/rising sealevels/unprecedented rain endangered Georgetown Guyana,as part of their climate panic news related to the anti west Cancun nonsense.

Their propagandist (he can’t be called anything else) waxed lyrical about rising seas,poverty etc. He stated the city lies 2 meters below the high tide level. All panic,fear,using scarce resourses to fight climate which could be spent on hospitals etc etc….you get the picture.

Do some elementary research.

Guyana ,land of rivers. Georgetown on the banks of the Demerera River and lowlying coastal swamp. Subject to flooding and coastal erosion for hundreds of years.

The Dutch first colonised the place,(probably felt at home). No doubt back then it was a tiny settlement on what ever high ground was available ,a bit like New Orleans. Then it grows as do the problems. They build canals and a sea wall. Constantly subject to flooding and erosion. Silly place to put a city.No doubt population growth and urban sprawl play a part.

But now it’s called climate change and the UN wants whitey to pay for it. And the MSM will never give the true context of the story.Left wing ,anti west fear mongering.
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December 7, 2010 10:34am
TimG_Oz

Robyn Malcolm – What a joke!!

I have just nominated David Farrar as New Zealander of the year. If you agree, then e-mail: newsdesk@nzherald.co.nz
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December 7, 2010 10:34am
Mr Magister

I hear that tomorrow’s nomination by the Herald for New Zealander of the year is Graeme Burton.

Welcome back Redbaiter. Tell me, does your new blog have an email address? I could not find any contact details.

Interesting that there are a couple of NZ mirrors for Wikileaks (apart from the Greens’). Just about guaranteed to earn one an SIS file, I should have thought.
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December 7, 2010 10:41am
John Gibson

No celebrity, media personality, actor , or other celebrity or any one involved in politics should ever be NZer of the Year. They don’t actually produce anything. They are good at getting attention and nothing else.

Some man/woman slogging his guts out in a factory in south Auckland is far more worthy of being NZ’er of the year.
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December 7, 2010 10:43am
Redbaiter

Thankyou Mr. Magister. I don’t have a public email address. If one is put up it is always signed up to spam mail or deluged with hate messages by/ from the left. It just ain’t worth it. If you wish to contact me you can do so through the email address on Crusader Rabbit.
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December 7, 2010 10:47am
Pete George

I’m surprised that Robyn Malcolm has been nominated for New Zealander of the year too. Main media sites can be a bit celebrity orientated. Malcolm may be a “loss leader” – she has attracted some attention to the “honours”.

It’s not clear how the honours will be decided, nor how the finalists were selected.

Every day this week in news, business and sport we feature the finalists for the Herald New Zealander of the Year. Top honours will appear in the Weekend Herald on Saturday.
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December 7, 2010 10:55am
Kris K

Ryan Sproull,

I responded to you just now over on GD of the 3/12/10:
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2010/12/general_debate_3_november_2010-2.html#comment-774037
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December 7, 2010 10:56am
Yvette

New Zealander of the Year Finalist: Robyn Malcolm
She defended Simon Whipp of the Australian actors’ union late one night when they were followed by angry film workers, stepping in and saying: “It is entirely inappropriate for anybody to speak at midnight … this is actually harassment now.”
When the dispute was settled she said she was “thrilled and relieved” that The Hobbit was staying in New Zealand and wished Sir Peter and the crew all the best, saying she hoped they had “an awesome shoot”.

Why does Robyn Malcolm remind me of the proverbial sign which supposedly read:
‘DO NOT THROW STONES AT THIS SIGN’ ?
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December 7, 2010 10:56am
Fletch

re: Robyn Malcolm; the media seem to have this blindness to anything wrong that one of their own PC leftist liberals might have done. As long as she’s for Greenpeace, supports the effort to combat climate change, supports the unions et al, they will ignore anything else.

It’s like in America where the delveoper of the mega-mosque has been name by NBC as ~~Man~~ Person Of The Year – from jihadwatch.com –

NBC names Ground Zero Mosque developer Sharif El-Gamal “Person of the Year”

“Meanwhile, the thug Sharif el-Gamal has been sued for an unpaid loan, and faced eviction from his SoHo office over $39,000 in back rent. He was found to owe $21,000 in fines on a property with 13 violations. And there are other unanswered questions.”

El-Gamal has also threatened a Muslim opponent of the Islamic supremacist mega-mosque at Ground Zero; spoken at an event for Hamas-linked CAIR; and has a history of thuggishness, including a recent comment about how beating people up is “exercise & stress relief.”

And despite all that, he is NBC’s Person of the Year.

And now this.

“Citibank sues Ground Zero mosque developer Sharif El-Gamal for $100G,” by James Fanelli for the New York Daily News, December 3 (thanks to all who sent this in):

The developer of the so-called Ground Zero mosque owes nearly $100,000 in overdue credit, a new suit charges.

So, yeh – the liberals don’t have a good track record with voting. They vote for their own, especially those who are advancing their liberal ideology. Look at how Obama won the Nobel Peace prize for doing….nothing.
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December 7, 2010 11:28am
Pete George

From kowotw @ A free xmas present for political geeks

I prefer “xmas” with the Christ in it. ,ie Christmas.

I had wondered where the X came from, now I know:

Xmas
“Christmas,” 1551, X’temmas , wherein the X is an abbreviation for Christ in Christmas , from first letter of Gk. Christos “Christ”. The earlier way to abbreviate it was Xp- or Xr- , corresponding to “Chr-,” and the form Xres mæsse for “Christmas” appears in the “Anglo-Saxon Chronicle” (c.1100).
http://dictionary.reference.com/cite.html?qh=xmas&ia=etymon

After all that’s what gift giving and Christmas is about.

Yes, for some people, not for everyone. Gift giving has become a mad commercial overkill in some ways. Kid’s Christmases can be Plastic Fanatics.

For many it’s a time to gather with family, if they’re not spread around the world too much.
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December 7, 2010 11:29am
kowtow

Hey Pete thanks for that ,learn something new every day.

I never associated the x with the Greek chi.Always thought it a commercial abbreviation.

My reference to gifts is from Mathew 2 .11. “and going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother,and fell down and worshipped him.Then opening their treasures,they offered him gifts,gold frankincense and myrrh.” Gifts are part of Christmas,no one says they have to be expensive or even bought!

Agree about the crass commercialisation too.
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December 7, 2010 11:56am
grumpyoldhori

Viking2, Oh I was asked how I knew that those down in the mines had rational views ie not extreme right wing.
Of course how often would you find those who live by Rand’s creed helping any other bugger ?
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December 7, 2010 12:05pm
Fletch

Geert Wilders made a very good speech in Tel Iviv about Israel. First he expressed his sympathy about the fire in Israel, and then he goes on to the history of Israel and ‘Palestine’, the refugee problem and makes the point that, actually, Jordan is Palestine, if you look at history.

But as long as the West refuses to understand how the Palestinians are used as a weapon against Israel, it will not be able to see who is truly to blame; it will not be able to see that it is not Israel’s duty to provide a Palestinian state – for the simple reason that there already is a Palestinian state and that state is Jordan.
Indeed, my friends, Jordan is Palestine. Take a look at the map of this part of the world after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire following World War I. Both contemporary Israel and contemporary Jordan were part of the British Mandate of Palestine.

In 1922, the British partitioned Palestine into Cisjordan and Transjordan – the latter comprising 78 per cent of the territory of Palestine. The British handed that territory over to their ally, the Hashemite strongman Abdallah ibn Hussein. Abdallah was the son of the emir Hussein bin Ali, guardian of the Islamic holy city of Mecca. The Hashemites belong to the Quraish tribe – the tribe of Islam founder Muhammad. They are a foreign body in Palestine.

In 1946, Transjordan became an independent state under Hashemite rule. In November 1947, the United Nations proposed to partition the remaining 22 per cent of Palestine. The territory between the Jordan River and the sea was divided into a Jewish and an Arab part. The Jewish representatives accepted the UN partition plan, but the Arab representatives refused. In an attempt to “drive all the Jews into the sea,” they began the 1948 war – which they lost.

They took revenge, however, on the Jews in East Jerusalem and the rest of Cisjordan – the ancient provinces of Judea and Samaria – held by the Arab forces. This entire region was ethnically cleansed of all Jews. Even the names of Judea and Samaria were wiped off the map and replaced by the ridiculous term “West Bank.”

Israel, including Judea and Samaria, has been the land of the Jews since time immemorial. Judea means Land of the Jews. Never in the history of the world has there been an autonomous state in the area that was not Jewish. The Diaspora of the Jews, which began after their defeat by the Romans in AD 70, did not lead to the departure of all the Jews from their ancient homeland. Jews had been living in the Jordan Valley for centuries until the Arab invaders drove them out in 1948, when the provinces of Judea and Samaria were occupied by the Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan, which abbreviated its name to Jordan in 1950.

[…]

Until the late 1980s, Jordan’s Hashemite rulers did not deny that their country was Palestine. They said so on numerous occasions. In 1965, King Hussein said: “Those organizations which seek to differentiate between Palestinians and Jordanians are traitors.” As late as 1981, Hussein repeated – I quote – “Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.”

In March 1971, The Palestine National Council, too, stated that – I quote – “what links Jordan to Palestine is a national bond […] formed, since time immemorial, by history and culture. The establishment of one political entity in Transjordan and another in Palestine is illegal.” – end of quote.

By the late 1970s, however, the Arab authorities began to differentiate between Jordanians and Palestinians. What was previously considered to be treason and illegality suddenly became the propaganda line.

In March 1977, PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein admitted in a candid interview in the Dutch newspaper Trouw: – I quote –

“Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot lay claim to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.” – end of quote.

MORE

Or watch video of the speech HERE
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December 7, 2010 12:07pm
Manolo

The Messiah suffers from a gaffe attack: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/12/06/whats-sputnik-obama-makes-s-space-race-rallying/
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December 7, 2010 12:17pm
hj

Kieth Locke doesn’t want the spooks to have more powers as they nab his mates:

Kerry Tankard will be well known to some readers.

She is a Wellington based anarchist, connected to the 128 Abel Smith Street crowd. She also worked with three of the “Urewera 17” Simon/Rongomai Bailey, Emily Bailey and Marama Mayrick, on the anarchist/Green Party supported radical environmentalist film Kotahi Ao.

Tankard, is also a Green Party activist and often posts on Green Forum under the name Katie.

She posted this on Green Forum, the day after the October 15th anti terror raids.

Location: Aro Valley, Wellington

Activist arrests in Wellington Posted: 16 Oct 2007 21:36

In the interests of supporting those who have been arrested, discussions were held last night at 128 Able Smith St.

I am re-posting a statement verbatim from Indymedia Collective, as a response to those who are concerned or confused about what is being said in media and local gossip.

Quote:

This morning I opened the herald to see what the bullshit the media were spinning about the raids and saw a comment allegedly from a flatmate of one of the activists arrested yesterday in Auckland.

I thought it would be obvious not to comment to the media but apparently not.

I guess I just want to remind people not to talk amongst themselves and speculate and especially do not talk to the media. They are not your friends and they will use you to get the inside scoop.

This was obvious in another article I got forwarded this morning from Bomber’s blog. He was sniffing around last night at Unite and had cornered some less experienced activists and was asking them what was going on…

As someone quite rightly put it last night….’if not one talks, everyone walks’.

It is not gossip it is fucken serious and some of our comrades are facing a long time behind bars, it would be good if people could remember that.

Now is an important time to remember AND PRACTISE those good old rules about security culture and solidarity!

The media are easy to ignore however the filth is a different story and it is likely that they will want to ‘talk’ to some people. If you are concerned about this and don’t know what your rights are etc… please seek the advise of an experienced activist who you TRUST. Maybe we need to have a workshop around this sometime in the next few days so that everyone is confident.

Love and solidarity!

Please respect the very serious position that the arrests have put some of our very dear friends in.

We have already seen a former policeman, Detective John Dewar, convicted for perverting the course of justice in the Shipton/Schollum/Rickards case; we know they lie.

The case at hand is under District Court strictures, there are suppression orders in place. We would prefer activists not to be branded as terrorists, in the face of Police PR and dubiously executed search warrants, and media clutching at straws to create a “good story”.

To all who have offered support, thanks on behalf of activists who do not have access to these forums. A legal fund has been started, and practical support for the arrestees on remand has begun.

Kerry Tankard
(Katie)
Member
http://newzeal.blogspot.com/2007/12/evidence-of-green-partyanarchist.html

What the bugs revealed
The Dominion Post | Wednesday, 14 November 2007

Suspect tells another it would be good to kill Pakeha to get trainees used to killing. Also suggests making their own tracer ammunition and using tungsten projectiles to go through a “cop vest” and through “his f…… mate”.
Bug in vehicle, recorded April 6, 2007.
“Get someone to assassinate the prime minister, the new one, next year’s one. Just been in office five days, bang … Yeah. John Key … just drop a bomb … Just wait till he visits somewhere and just blow them … They won’t even find you.”
Two suspects in bugged vehicle, August 17, 2007.

http://www.webcitation.org/5TKxD2fdq
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December 7, 2010 12:18pm
EverlastingFire

What does it take to get charged with cold blooded murder in this country?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4430061/Young-killer-to-be-sentenced

“The boy then picked up his father’s gun and said “Bay I’ll shoot youse (sic)” after Triston called him “an asshole”.

He poked Triston multiple times with the rifle before grabbing two bullets and loading the gun, asking: “Are you going to get cheeky now I’m sticking bullets in it?”

Triston was shot in the back of his shoulder as he turned his back, the bullet destroying his windpipe.

He died almost immediately, in a pool of blood on the floor. “
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December 7, 2010 12:19pm
Kris K

Fletch 11:28 am,

NBC names Ground Zero Mosque developer Sharif El-Gamal “Person of the Year”

“Meanwhile, the thug Sharif el-Gamal has been sued for an unpaid loan, […] spoken at an event for Hamas-linked CAIR; and has a history of thuggishness, including a recent comment about how beating people up is “exercise & stress relief.”

And despite all that, he is NBC’s Person of the Year.

So, yeh – the liberals don’t have a good track record with voting. They vote for their own, especially those who are advancing their liberal ideology. Look at how Obama won the Nobel Peace prize for doing….nothing.

Yep, Liberals/Socialists vote for their own – like Gore and Obama receiving the Nobel Peace Prize. Of course we have unrepentant Muslim terrorists like Arafat also getting the Nobel Peace Prize, and then the Muslim thug mentioned above being voted “Person of the Year” by NBC. So not ONLY do they vote for their own, they sell out to Islamic extremists and/or terrorists – I think we used to call this TREASON?!
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December 7, 2010 12:25pm
Viking2

GOH> More often than you recognise I’d suggest.
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December 7, 2010 12:32pm
Kris K

Fletch 12:07 pm,

But as long as the West refuses to understand how the Palestinians are used as a weapon against Israel, it will not be able to see who is truly to blame; it will not be able to see that it is not Israel’s duty to provide a Palestinian state – for the simple reason that there already is a Palestinian state and that state is Jordan.
Indeed, my friends, Jordan is Palestine.

Indeed, Fletch.
A fact those who hate Israel conveniently forget. Having a selective memory must be a wonderful thing – especially when it comes to rewriting history.
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December 7, 2010 12:33pm
hj

# Luc Hansen (2,212) Says:
# December 6th, 2010 at 7:17 pm

Hone Harawira is suggesting the Govt should prove the Crown’s claim to the foreshore and seabed, not Maori.
Hey! That’s what I’ve been saying here for ages! Do you think Hone got the idea from Kiwiblog and Yours Truly?
And when our sea levels rise and the foreshore moves inland, I guess the goalposts move too and in Maori favour!
……………….

S # hj (566) Says:
# December 6th, 2010 at 7:39 pm

Just to get this clear Luc Hansen: Maori were here first so they own the foreshore and seabed (even though most have more European ancestors than Maori)? So you see that as a better outcome than common ownership by all New Zealanders? Do you see Maori as superior to non Maori?
……..
# Luc Hansen (2,212) Says:

hj
As usual, your posts are fact-free. And anyone who talks of superiority on the basis of race is racist. Whatever Maori did [Chatams] is such small fry compared to our deeds where the deaths of indigenous peoples numbers in the hundreds of millions.
And regardless, whatever they have done does not impinge on their rights as indigenous people. Europeans don’t have such rights here, by the way. Just like in Palestine.
…………..
I’d still like to hear why people like Luc Hansen think it is desirable that people with indigenous ancestry own the foreshore and seabed and how this cannot be racist.
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December 7, 2010 12:33pm
grumpyoldhori

Heh,heh, I wonder how many pakeha believe this, a lot no doubt.

“This was [supposedly] a veritable crossroads of the ancient world. Phoenicians were here, Celts, Vikings, you name it, they were all here except for the Maori.”

Of course pakeha do not have to prove they did not buy stolen foreshore, no surprise in that.
Now what were you pakeha saying about property rights, oh, only applies to the whiter shade of pale does it ?
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December 7, 2010 12:47pm
Fletch

grumpy, I do think that others were here before the Maori. This view was taken by the Archaeological Association Conference in 2002 at which was said –

Despite the clear evidence, some archaeologists did not want to accept the story the bones told: that the accepted theory of human settlement in New Zealand from AD1200-1300 was incorrect. The method of ash layer dating was vigorously attacked, but intensive retesting found it to be sound. A vote at the 2002 Archaeological Association Conference was split – 27 voted for and 24 against early human arrival. There was eventually a majority consensus that humans had brought the rats to New Zealand in 100AD, but didn’t stay.

Then there was the excavation of the “stone city” in the Waipoua Forest, which cost the taxpayer half a million dollars in the 80s and which the general public was turned away from seeing.

But most of the people of New Zealand do not know what was found in Waipoua Forest over the three year investigation, at a cost to the taxpayer then of $500,000. The detailed mapping and notes of the complex of stone walls, hearths, stone structures defined as altars by the archaeologists, incised obelisks, petroglyphs (rock carvings), standing stone circles, circular stone mounds and stone-lined waterways were instead sent away to remain hidden under a 75 year embargo, restricted until 2063.

Why under embargo? What’s so important that we’re not allowed to know?

Eventually access was given to the reports, including those that show material in midden dumps dating from the year 950 (before Maori).

Actually there is so much evidence that points to others being here before Maori that it must take a huge effort of some people to deny it all.
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December 7, 2010 1:24pm
hj

Heh,heh, I wonder how many pakeha believe this, a lot no doubt.

“This was [supposedly] a veritable crossroads of the ancient world. Phoenicians were here, Celts, Vikings, you name it, they were all here except for the Maori.”
….
I suppose it’s abit like Richard pearse being first to fly: if knoone saw it it doesn’t matter.

Of course pakeha do not have to prove they did not buy stolen foreshore, no surprise in that.
Now what were you pakeha saying about property rights, oh, only applies to the whiter shade of pale does it ?
…………
Perhaps it is Pakeha culture that we don’t believe people should own the foreshore (even though Moari and Pakeha do have private title in places). For a long time the lord owned everything and peasants could be executed for stealing a wild pheasant but we have managed to be free of such dorks. Now we have greedy Maori hiding behind indigenous ancestral connection and dubious religious beliefs (we are connected to mother Earth).

As for the property rights angle, we are talking about a territorial landmass not a crate of beer. Maori are arguing prior occupation = aboriginal title =ownership and since that covers the whole of NZ………..?
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December 7, 2010 1:25pm
Inventory2

The Australians are collapsing like Black Caps – 287 for eight, and still 88 runs needed to make England bat again.

In the meantime, I reckon that Simon Doull is on to something …

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/12/stolen-generation.html
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December 7, 2010 1:34pm
Pete George

One difference is the Black Caps didn’t have as far to fall.

Doull could be right. The All Blacks went through a period where they were too robotic and couldn’t think for themselves on the field. Cricket could learn a bit from the rugby remedies.
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December 7, 2010 1:39pm
redeye

Fletch 12:07pm

http://www.danielpipes.org/298/is-jordan-palestine

The Jordan-is-Palestine argument rests on four main premises: that Palestine historically included Jordan; that the British-governed Mandate of Palestine included the entire territory of today’s Israel and Jordan; that the two regions are geographically indistinguishable; and that Palestinian and Jordanian leaders themselves believe Jordan and Palestine identical. The trouble is, neither the historical record nor the map unambiguously supports any of these propositions. Rather, they are based on a selective knowledge of history and geography, a narrow and eccentric reading of the British Mandate, and a distortion of inter-Arab political dynamics.

Specious arguments tend to have mischievous effects and the Jordan-is-Palestine tactic is no exception. In the end, it is likely to advance the cause of a Palestinian state on the West Bank as well as the East, and will rebound dangerously against both Israeli and American interests.
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December 7, 2010 1:42pm
Inventory2

@ Pete George – you’re right about the fall, but when you’re ranked #1 in the world as the Australians were earlier in the year, there’s only one way to go

BTW, the Aussies are now 300 for nine, and only have about 79 overs left to bat to save the match.
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December 7, 2010 1:53pm
Pete George

And now it’s over. It’s not just a loss for the Aussies, it’s a humiliation. I wonder when they were last beaten by that much. Still plenty of games left in the series but the Aussies are looking defeated, hard to see how they can lift themselves.

Katich and Broad injured and out for the rest of the series.

“The hosts suffer the ignominy of their first innings defeat at home since their capitulation to the West Indies at Perth in 1993. ” (West Indies won by an innings and 25 runs)
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December 7, 2010 2:02pm
trueblue

Boo Hoo Australia, they have had a crap year sportingwise. Rugby, League, Netball and now Cricket.
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December 7, 2010 2:08pm
Pete George

It may be embarrassing. It may irresponsible. But it may not be illegal.

Gillard can’t say what law WikiLeaks has broken

Prime Minister Julia Gillard has again been unable to name any Australian laws broken by the controversial WikiLeaks website or its founder Julian Assange.

Western governments are increasingly calling for Mr Assange to be stopped as WikiLeaks continues to publish more than 250,000 confidential documents from the United States State Department. But asked directly what Australian laws had been broken by either WikiLeaks or Mr Assange, Ms Gillard said the Australian Federal Police were investigating.

“The foundation stone of it is an illegal act,” Ms Gillard told reporters today.

But the “foundation stone” was the leaking of the documents to the website, not the publishing of the cables.

“It would not happen, information would not be on WikiLeaks, if there had not been an illegal act undertaken,” Ms Gillard said.

“It’s grossly irresponsible and anybody who looks at the pages of today’s newspaper and sees that things like critical infrastructure lists are being put on WikiLeaks … would understand how grossly irresponsible this is,” Ms Gillard said.

Opposition legal affairs spokesman George Brandis accused Ms Gillard of being “clumsy” with her language on the issue of illegality.

“As far as I can see, he [Mr Assange] hasn’t broken any Australian law,” he told Sky News.

“Nor does it appear he has broken any American laws.”

Senator Brandis, a Queen’s Counsel, called for any debate about the publishing of the cables to have a well-defined understanding of the difference between something which appeared to be morally wrong and an act that was illegal.

“As far as I can see, nothing Mr Assange has done does break the law,” he said.

Laws can be a bit inconvenient at times.
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December 7, 2010 2:23pm
trueblue

They cant help themselves…..
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/nsw-mp-rorted-expenses-corruption-watchdog-finds-20101207-18ndh.html

http://www.smh.com.au/national/mp-linked-to-prostitutes-20101206-18mxe.html
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December 7, 2010 2:28pm
Herman Poole

It may be embarrassing. It may irresponsible. But it may not be illegal.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard has again been unable to name any Australian laws broken by the controversial WikiLeaks website or its founder Julian Assange.

Laws can be a bit inconvenient at times.

I don’t think there is any doubt that it is the leaker/s that will be doing the serious jail time. If and when they are caught I would expect them to be put away for decades.
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December 7, 2010 2:58pm
cha

They cant help themselves…..

Unlike the dipton dipper a pommie MP pleaded guilty to claiming rent for his own home.
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December 7, 2010 3:11pm
Fletch

redeye, to be honest, “Palestine” is a word invented by the Romans and there never has been such a people with their own unique culture and language. Even Jews in that geographical area were known as ‘Palestinians’. You can see in this MAP the areas that King David and King Soloman ruled over in Biblical times – all the way to the Euphrates River – before such as thing as Palestinians existed. It was Jewish land, and always had Jews living there.
You can see the same in this MAP dated from 1926 in the lower left. The map in upper right shows “palestine” under the later Kings 953 – 722 BC showing it split into Judah and the Kingdom of Israel. Still can’t see any “Palestine”.

WHAT DOES “PALESTINE” MEAN?

It has never been the name of a nation or state. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when there is no nation or state there.

The word itself derives from “Peleshet”, a name that appears frequently in the Bible and has come into English as “Philistine”. The name began to be used in the Thirteenth Century BCE, for a wave of migrant “Sea Peoples” who came from the area of the Aegean Sea and the Greek Islands and settled on the southern coast of the land of Canaan. There they established five independent city-states (including Gaza) on a narrow strip of land known as Philistia. The Greeks and Romans called it “Palastina”.

The Philistines were not Arabs, they were not Semites. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs. The name “Falastin” that Arabs today use for “Palestine” is not an Arabic name. It is the Arab pronunciation of the Greco-Roman “Palastina” derived from the Peleshet.

HOW DID THE LAND OF ISRAEL BECOME “PALESTINE”?

In the First Century CE, the Romans crushed the independent kingdom of Judea. After the failed rebellion of Bar Kokhba in the Second Century CE, the Roman Emperor Hadrian determined to wipe out the identity of Israel-Judah-Judea. Therefore, he took the name Palastina and imposed it on all the Land of Israel. At the same time, he changed the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina.

The Romans killed many Jews and sold many more in slavery. Some of those who survived still alive and free left the devastated country, but there was never a complete abandonment of the Land. There was never a time when there were not Jews and Jewish communities, though the size and conditions of those communities fluctuated greatly.

At the beginning of the 20th century, there were practically no Arabs in the Holy Land. When General Alenby, the commander of the British military forces, conquered Palestine in 1917/1918, only about 5000 Arabs resided there. They did not call themselves “Palestinians”. The concept of a “Palestinian” to describe the local residents has not yet been invented; neither was there ever in history a “Palestinian Arab” nation. None of today’s Arabs have any
ancestral relationship to the original Biblical Philistines who are now extinct.

In March 1977, Zahir Muhsein, an executive member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), said in an interview to the Dutch newspaper Trouw: “The ‘Palestinian people’ does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel.”

“Palestine” is used as a weapon.
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December 7, 2010 3:40pm
cha

Now all you’ve to do Fletch is find ye olde map to show us where the Phoenicians, Celts and Vikings lived.
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December 7, 2010 3:53pm
Mr Magister

STOP PRESS: The East Anglia Daily Times reports that a UK lottery winner may holiday in New Zealand!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10692716

Or is it Australia? Or maybe neither? Oh well, they will “definitely be planning a long haul holiday in the near future”.

What a non story! It seems one can be a journalist these days by refreshing the page at http://news.google.com/news/search?q=new+zealand

EDIT to add: It seems that “cultural cringe” is alive and well in 2010.
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December 7, 2010 4:52pm
cha

When did you choose to be straight?
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December 7, 2010 4:52pm
fatnuts

“Jordan is Palestine” – a mantra of far right nutters – Israeli President Shimon Peres refers to it as a “baseless hallucination”.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/peres-jordan-is-palestine-plan-is-baseless-hallucination-1.276804

Try again.
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December 7, 2010 6:11pm
Fletch

fatnuts, well, it sure as hell ain’t where Israel is.

And going by the connection of Jordan’s Hashemite roots to Mecca, Abdallah ibn Hussein, Mohammed’s Quraish tribe and Islam, I think there’s a strong case for Jordan/Palestine. What reason do you have for not agreeing, when late as 1981, King Hussein repeated – I quote – “Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.”?
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December 7, 2010 6:24pm
Fletch

I note that Peres doesn’t give a reason why he thinks it’s an idea of “nutters”; he doesn’t like the idea, but has no argument to back up his statement, and neither do you. Name calling is not a good enough reason.
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December 7, 2010 6:29pm
fatnuts

Fletch, that “theory” is somewhat old now. You couldn’t even sell it to the Israeli public. Let alone the rest of the world.

Pretty sure you’re flogging a dead horse.
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December 7, 2010 6:56pm
Fletch

fatnuts, well, apart from your telling me it is wrong, why don’t you explain why you think it is wrong.
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December 7, 2010 7:42pm
Fletch

Interesting youtube video from a BBC series that shows an animated graph of 200 years of life expectancy vs wealth.
Is amazing how Asian countries have caught up very quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo
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December 7, 2010 7:44pm
Fletch

Interesting again –

The marriage killer: One in five American divorces now involve Facebook

It used to be the tell-tale lipstick on the collar. Then there were the give-away texts that spelled the death knell for many marriages.
But now one in five divorces involve the social networking site Facebook, according to a new survey by the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers.
A staggering 80 per cent of divorce lawyers have also reported a spike in the number of cases that use social media for evidence of cheating.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1334482/The-marriage-killer-One-American-divorces-involve-Facebook.html#ixzz17PEM0hTK
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December 7, 2010 7:47pm
nickb

For any accounting or legal professionals out there, what are your thoughts on the new LTC regime proposed?
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December 7, 2010 8:01pm
Hurf Durf

GOH’s primary school edukayshun shining through.

Is fatnuts another Billy Bonkers alt? He should give it up.
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December 7, 2010 8:24pm
Johnboy

Another child killed by an adult. No prizes for guessing the poor little mites skin colour.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10692724

Polys love their children of course.

This is just an anomaly.
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December 7, 2010 8:27pm
Johnboy

Grumpy’s only unedumacated because your colonialist ancestors stole his bright future off his ancestors when they stopped them eating each other Hurf. 🙂
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December 7, 2010 8:36pm
Hurf Durf

I wonder if he can’t type “Americans” because it has too many letters in it. Anymore than eight and he ends up like this.

Oh hell, Redbaiter is going to be thrilled about this. He’ll never give money to World Vision ever again.
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December 7, 2010 8:46pm
fatnuts

Fletch, “Jordan is Palestine”, or alternatively “the Jordanian option” is an overt advocacy of ethnic cleansing.

This is of course the sole reserve of extremists.
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December 7, 2010 8:56pm
Tauhei Notts

Nickb,
I have studied the new LTC (Look Through Company) scene. My first thought is what was wrong with the old Loss Attributing Qualifying Company regime that needed this complete rewrite of the laws. Yes, there were a huge number of property owning companies, but that is the fault of the Tax Department. They have plenty of information technology geeks, but very few experienced auditors who would tear many of those residential property owning LAQC’s apart. For years the Tax Dep’t has paid new employees too much, and well experienced people too little. I imagine that is flow on from the PSA fellows who try to think that everybody is equal, but PSA officials are more equal than others.
I get the impression that there are more changes to be made to the legislation concerning LTC’s so I am forgetting about it all until early March 2011, when a concentrated attack on the structure of various companies will be made; after most of the legislative tinkering has been done.
What pisses me off at the moment is that 33% dividend tax thing. The bastards should have brought it back to 30% at 1st April 2009, then drop it to 28% at 1st April 2011. What I mean is that fully imputed dividends need to have dividend withholding tax deducted and if you do not get the forms exactly correct, then you will punished by a bureaucracy that is driving me nuts. Throw in there the Foreign Investor Tax Credit; if anybody knows anything about that they are promoted to Head Office and there is nobody in the provincial offices who can comprehend it.
I note that Peter Dunne is angry about the cockies who have been gaming the Herd Scheme; get out then get back in. And several beancounters are sad about the Tax Dep’t not allowing 31st August balance dates for syndicates that own a stallion prospect. All this detailed tax talk; I can feel a Jim Beam coming along.
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December 7, 2010 10:00pm
Guy Fawkes

Brown admits he is no ECONOMIST in is latest book.

But please do read this:

GB no doubt approved the science behind the following bailout strategy

Bailout Package

It is a slow day in a damp town. The rain is beating down and the streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit.

On this particular day a rich tourist is driving through the town, stops at the local hotel and lays a €100 note on the desk, telling the hotel owner he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night.

The owner gives him some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked upstairs, the hotelier grabs the €100 note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher.

The butcher takes the €100 note and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer.

The pig farmer takes the €100 note and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel.

The guy at the Farmers’ Co-op takes the €100 note and runs to pay his drinks bill at the pub.

The publican slips the money along to the local prostitute drinking at the bar, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer him “services” on credit.

The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to the hotel owner with the €100 note.

The hotel proprietor then places the €100 note back on the counter so the rich traveler will not suspect anything.

At that moment the traveler comes down the stairs, picks up the €100 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money, and leaves town.

No one produced anything. No one earned anything. However, the whole town is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism.

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is how a European bailout package works.
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December 7, 2010 11:28pm
MikeNZ

Hey fatnuts
guess what you got it wrong.
Jordan is Palestine at least until Winston Churchill got involved.
The Palestinians were the jews!
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December 7, 2010 11:40pm
Herman Poole

# Fletch (1,638) Says:
December 7th, 2010 at 7:44 pm

Interesting youtube video from a BBC series that shows an animated graph of 200 years of life expectancy vs wealth.
Is amazing how Asian countries have caught up very quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo

You should watch his talks at TED if you like that.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html
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December 8, 2010 7:20am
Tauhei Notts

Nickb,
Further to my lengthy post last night;
In future all family trusts should have a grandparent be the settlor, as distinct from Mum and Dad.
Have a look at that Supplementary Order Paper that was tabled yesterday.
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December 8, 2010 8:36am

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