General Debate 28 December 2010

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Rodders

More huffing and puffing from the Bain camp

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4497691/Government-rejects-Bain-compensation-deal
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December 28, 2010 8:15am
dad4justice

As a former lawyer trained in the art of lying our inept Justice Minister Simon Flower wants more expensive litigation to proceed in the Bain case. Great stuff said the bankrupt kiwi worker!!!

FFS replace this dummy with a live person. Mr Justice Minister what about Rex Haig, Peter Ellis etc..etc.. ???
Mr Justice Minister on the balance of probabilities I do believe you are a brainless show pony who is completely out of his depth.
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December 28, 2010 8:18am
Manolo

Younger and younger thugs appear to be the norm these days: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/4497085/Copycat-fear-in-machete-attack

At the sametime, another moron makes the headlines; http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/4496940/Burning-his-socks-backfires-on-teenager
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December 28, 2010 8:20am
starboard

Younger and younger thugs appear to be the norm these days: http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/4497085/Copycat-fear-in-machete-attack.m

..thanks to Klark and her years at the helm. Great legacy ya left behind Hulun. As for the copper , why didnt he just pull his sidearm and blow their b**** heads off…oh thats right…our coppers still only have a piece of wood to protect themselves with…meanwhile in lala NZ life goes on…
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December 28, 2010 8:29am
Inventory2

Ricky Ponting lost the plot big-time yesterday. It’s so sad to see the Australian cricket team collectively spitting the dummy

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/12/captain-grumpy.html
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December 28, 2010 8:31am
Inventory2

I couldn’t disagree more Dad4J – David Bain should not be getting one cent in compensation, and Simon Power is absolutely right to have rejected the settlement deal.
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December 28, 2010 8:33am
dad4justice

Ok Inventory2, let’s have another expensive round of compensation litigation. The Bain camp will not stop, so the New Zealand taxpayer will be the loser (again) on the day.
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December 28, 2010 8:39am
Pete George

The Justice Minister can’t selectively ban legal process. It may end up costing the taxpayer, but the alternative would be very costly for fair justice.
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December 28, 2010 8:44am
Inventory2

Dad – this is a case which has to go to court. To simply pay Bain out without the proper legal test as to whether his claim has merit would be an albatross around the neck of the taxpayer for years to come.
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December 28, 2010 8:51am
Pete George

Lindsay Mitchell’s “meal-ticket children” is based on what? Research? Or a guess? My guess is that most abused kids are not planned births, and many are victims of relationship circumstances.

While by no stretch of the imagination wholly explaining the incidence of abuse, the more that ‘poor’ families are paid to look after their children, the more abuse has occurred or, at least, has been notified and substantiated. More money certainly isn’t curing the problem. So perhaps it is time to ask if more money is exacerbating it?

Paula Bennett needs to consider this ugly aspect of social security, acknowledge it and work to change it.

While Mitchell “asks” the question she seems to have already made up her mind what the answer is based on nothing more than personal assumptions.

I don’t think it is that simple.
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December 28, 2010 8:59am
Yvette

“Mr Bain was found not guilty at a retrial last year of the 1994 murder of his parents and three siblings in Dunedin after spending 13 years in prison.

I thought the finding was that the original court case was ‘unsafe’ – meaning defective – but there was insufficient evidence to declare who had murdered the family, so David Bain was found ‘not guilty’, but was not proven ‘innocent’.

That ‘The Government has rejected a proposed financial offer by David Bain’s legal team to settle his compensation claim for wrongful imprisonment.” would indicate there is insufficient evidence to establish Bain’s innocence, and so entitle him to compensation.

To prove “on the balance of probabilities” Mr Bain was innocent, “… is going to involve a huge case, which in our estimation may end up costing everyone about $10 million, with an overseas judge to be appointed,” Mr Reed said … “This is going to involve a huge case, which in our estimation may end up costing everyone about $10 million, with an overseas judge to be appointed,” Mr Reed said.

The Supreme Court of New Zealand has been set up specifically so that such overseas appointments or court use [Privy Counsil] may not be used – such use now is to question New Zealand sovereignty, or were Clark and Wilson wrong in that too?

And Reed’s estimation that future court action on behalf of Bain “… may end up costing everyone about $10 million” should raise questions about any rights to taxpayer funds [legal aid] – how many court cases and funds should one person be entitled to?

Particularly before consideration of other cases, like Peter Ellis.
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December 28, 2010 9:00am
TripeWryter

I suggest that Michael Reed, QC, is engaging in scare tactics with his $10 million.

When the Privy Council declared Mr Bain’s conviction might not be safe, and he was freed from prison, there was much agitation that a retrial was going to cost millions, and that since he had already served 13 years, why not pardon him?

Mr Bain had enjoyed much public support, including from me.

His retrial last year caused some people to look at things again. Including me.

In a way, justice was served in that Mr Bain did 13 years.

I do wonder, though, if justice was served when he was found not guilty last year.
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December 28, 2010 9:26am
pdm

He should not receive a cent and nor should he get Legal Aid to fund his case.
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December 28, 2010 9:43am
nickb

Totally agree with you D4J without a hint of sarcasm- Power needs to go back to small town conveyancing and let someone with half a brain take the job. NOT Judith Collins or Stephen Joyce either FFS.
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December 28, 2010 9:45am
Inventory2

One can’t help but wonder who David Bain is seeking to compensate; himeself, or his mate Joe.
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December 28, 2010 9:45am
Offshore_Kiwi

Petie “many are victims of relationship circumstances” wrong again. They are the victims of half-witted, booze- and drug-addled once were warrior fucktards who think it’s OK to use their fists (and feet) to express themselves. These people should be either (a) treated like stray animals and de-sexed, or (b) treated like rabid animals and put out of their (and our) misery. They should *not* be given any more of your hard-earned money as an inducement to breed more punching bags.
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December 28, 2010 9:45am
Inventory2

So nickb; you’d just hand over $10m to Bain and send him on his way, would you?

As others above have said, Michael Reed QC is trying it on, and we should be grateful that Power has not fallen for it. The burden of proof for Bain to receive compensation rests on him.
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December 28, 2010 9:49am
peterwn

Mr Reed’s argument is effectively that he can end up costing the Government $10M even if all the legal action he tries falls flat on its face. Therefore the Government might as well cough up a few million now and be done with it.

Fundamentally, there is no real legal avenue in this instance. The Crown owes no duty of care in this case. The judges even if they got it wrong are totally indemnified. The jailers could be sued (the Crown in practice indemnifies jailers against false imprisonment claims), but the detention was lawful (including a remand in custody pending retrial if the judge had refused bail after the Privy Council decision).

Compensation if granted is essentially an act of mercy by the Sovereign and thus cannot be scrutinised by the courts.

Seems Mr Reed will try and formulate some ’causes’ then start rattling the doors for legal aid.

As far as involving overseas judges is concerned, this is a matter for the executive government and does not appear to be challengable in court. Possibly public opinion could be some inflence here but public opinion is sharply divided on this case anyway. If the Supreme Court runs short of judges for any particular case then retired judges or Appeal or High Court judges would be ‘roped in’ to hear the case.

Just a point on the inheritance. Seems as if David Bain has asked his rellies for the inheritance that would have come to him but has been rebuffed in part or whole. I do not know the law here but I suspect that he is out of luck or at least would need to show on balance of probabilities that he did not do it. In any case the maximum liability of the rellies may be for identifiable items which would include money that has been invested as distinct from spent. As far as the Every St property is concerned, the purchaser of it has indefeasible title under the Torrens System so he cannot be required to relinquish it.

In practice how much David gets if anything is dependent on public opinion and it would not help if Joe Karam sues anything that moves to try and quell any uprising of public opinion against David’s cause.
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December 28, 2010 9:52am
hj

17 Facts About China That Will Blow Your Mind

http://www.businessinsider.com/amazing-facts-about-china-2010-12#
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December 28, 2010 9:54am
hj

People who support Maori claims to the foreshore ans seabed hide behind “only want justice”, “only want their day in court” and “property rights”. Shouldn’t they be talking about hereditory territorial rights? Was not the whole country once occupied by Maori collectives?
http://tumeke.blogspot.com/2010/12/fsa-2004-repeal-bill-submission.html

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0307/S00029.htm
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December 28, 2010 10:03am
nickb

No definitely not IV2, sorry I was talking about Power’s skills in general, not in the context of Bain. Bain is as guilty as sin and should not get a single cent.

BTW, is anyone else enjoying seeing the aussies get such a spanking? Ponting and Clarke must be on thin ice methinks.
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December 28, 2010 10:04am
gravedodger

Pete George @8 59, It is not that simple but imho there is a significant connection with the incentivising of birthing and the possession of young children through the welfare system and subsequent serious abuse of the young members of families. There is much anecdotal evidence of teenage “girls” making a concious decision to spawn a “dolly” to gain a much improved benefit level and then taking that/those spawned offspring into further relationships where the current squeeze has zero emotional or blood relationship to the spawn and as in other species, will attack the foriegn child when it frustrates his “enjoyment of life”.
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December 28, 2010 10:05am
Pete George

From a study was carried out last year, before last year’s harsh winter…

Cold winters linked to ebbing Arctic ice

Scientists have established a link between the cold, snowy winters in Britain and melting sea ice in the Arctic and have warned that long periods of freezing weather are likely to become more frequent.

An analysis of the ice-free regions of the Arctic Ocean has found that the higher temperatures there caused by global warming, which have melted the sea ice in the summer months, have paradoxically increased the chances of colder winters in Britain and the rest of northern Europe.

Some climate scientists believe that the dramatic retreat of the Arctic sea ice over the past 30 years has begun to change the wind patterns over much of the Northern Hemisphere, causing cold, Arctic air to be funnelled over Britain during winter, replacing the mild westerly airstream that normally dominates Britain’s weather.

Back on the other side of the world, we have a cool wet weather change that’s common at this time of year.
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December 28, 2010 10:07am
kowtow

For the idiot panic mongering warmists out there here’s a seasonal piece from the excellent UK Daily Telegraph

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100069761/christmas-myths-the-mystery-of-the-vanishing-snow/
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December 28, 2010 10:07am
hj

The Maori Cultural Advantage a meme invented by Te Puni Kokiri (Dept of Propaganda)

# Cultural advantage – all Māori have cultural advantage by virtue of who they are – being Māori is an asset, not a problem;
http://www.minedu.govt.nz/NZEducation/EducationPolicies/SpecialEducation/PolicyAndStrategy/GSEMaoriStrategy/Mahere_Rautaki_Matauranga_Maori_Maori_Education_Strategic_Plan.aspx
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December 28, 2010 10:11am
Pete George

There is much anecdotal evidence

Agreed. And certainly some of it is contributing to abuse of kids. But how much?

And simply cutting the benefits is very likely to contribute to a lot of hardship for many kids, at least in the short term. It will make things worse, not better.

Our society as a whole won’t go anywhere near the final solutions proposed by d4j and offshore.
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December 28, 2010 10:13am
Thrash Cardiom

For the idiot panic mongering warmists out there here’s a seasonal piece from the excellent UK Daily Telegraph

Yes, the misquoted words of one man out weighs everything else ever said about climate change.
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December 28, 2010 10:20am
kowtow

Here’s a story that incorporates both global waming and child abuse. Don’t polar bears know they are endangered? If animals have the same rights as humans ,shouldn’t this mother charged ? Probably not the mothers’ fault as her keepers are ultimately responsible…..the mother must come from Aotearoa….
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2010/12/polar_bear_eats_its_young.php
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December 28, 2010 10:21am
hj

People could never influence climate
http://www.businessinsider.com/amazing-facts-about-china-2010-12#
It doesn’t fit ones libertarian philosophy which states that go-getters and successful people can have as much as they want; the only limit is the human mind and by my struggling for more wealth I only benefit others.
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December 28, 2010 10:22am
dad4justice

“Our society as a whole won’t go anywhere near the final solutions proposed by d4j and offshore.”

Pop another pill you pathetic nutbar.
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December 28, 2010 10:22am
Pete George

After the obligatory media coverage of Boxing Day madness reality sets in….

Spending figures absolute shocker

Consumer spending figures for Boxing Day are a real worry – all numbers have headed south

Boxing Day consumer spending figures are alarming the chair of Auckland Council’s business advisory panel. Cameron Brewer says the fact that EFTPOS provider Paymark has reported the value and number of transactions well down this Boxing Day compared with last year is a big worry.

Mr Brewer says it’s an absolute shocker and shows we are by no means out of the woods.

He says higher inflation and GST should have pushed the total spend up, but all numbers have headed south.

Mr Brewer says these would be the worst year-to-year Boxing Day figures for a decade.

He says spending at this time of year is a barometer of consumer confidence, but people’s hands are more tightly in their pockets.

Maybe it’s more a case of common sense setting in. Spending like crazy for Christmas and then racing out and spending like mad straight afterward always seemed insane to me.

It’s a sad reflection of our society if a reduction in wasteful spending is seen as a disaster.
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December 28, 2010 10:24am
Kent Parker

For those of you who think that public opinion will now play a part in the Bain case, there is always the petition: http://davidbain.counterspin.co.nz/node/add/signature . Joe Karam got the 2009 verdict as a result of a very successful publicity campaign and in some ways the only way to reverse it is through an equal campaign to counter it. As you may know certain individuals are currently dealing with defamation proceedings meted out by the aforementioned Joe which makes it all the more interesting. Does Karam actually have a genuine grievance against these people or is he just trying to shut them up? You decide. If you feel strongly, sign the petition.
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December 28, 2010 10:25am
starboard

Mahere Rautaki Matauranga Māori/ Māori Education Strategic Plan
Cascading out of these outcome domains are a number of high level education strategies. One of these is the Māori Education Strategy, Ka Hikitia, that has as it’s overarching thrust, the Durie principles

..Cascading…outcome domains…overarching thrust…WTF? I have a reasonable grasp of the english lingo…but what is this man trying to say?
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December 28, 2010 10:28am
MT_Tinman

Pete, before congratulating the public for not overspending on Boxing day i suggest you (and Mr Brewer) remember one city was closed most of that day.
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December 28, 2010 11:02am
bhudson

I think Reed is clearly fearful of putting the Bain defence case to the test of ‘balance of probabilities’ – that is, he thinks that the probability is that the case will fail and Bain will be forever legally tainted as the likely killer on the balance of probabilities.

Surely the truth is worth $10m? (If, in fact it would cost anything like tat.) If it wasn’t Bain would never had the opportunity for appeals and a retrial in the first place. Now, all of a sudden, justice has a ceiling value…
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December 28, 2010 11:13am
Pete George

MT – it may have made a difference but it was only the central area that was closed. I know someone who spent seven hours shopping in Christchurch on Boxing Day, unaffected apart from noticing the biggest jolt which was insignificant to them – that shake seems to have been quite localised.
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December 28, 2010 11:32am
cha

Like..WoW?, a video about being sure that you know what you’re talking about…if you know what I mean..like, you know…by Ronnie Bruce.
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December 28, 2010 11:37am
Manolo

Some followers of the “religion of peace” behaving as they only know: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/12/27/somali-islamist-insurgents-threaten-attack-627018837/?test=latestnews
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December 28, 2010 12:15pm
Manolo

The lunacy of the RMA, which the incompetent greenie Nick Smith is unable and unwilling to overhaul:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/local-government/news/article.cfm?c_id=250&objectid=10696551
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December 28, 2010 12:20pm
reid

I think Reed is clearly fearful of putting the Bain defence case to the test of ‘balance of probabilities’ – that is, he thinks that the probability is that the case will fail and Bain will be forever legally tainted as the likely killer on the balance of probabilities.

bhudson I realise you’re referring to Bain’s lawyer. I for one although I don’t really understand the details of the test requirements, feel that overall they seem a bit of a high hurdle. After all, if you are accused then the entire weight of the state is flung against you with unlimited resources to call overseas expert witnesses, conduct sophisticated lab tests etc as much as they want. The defence doesn’t have anything like those resources. If an injustice has been done then setting a similarly high barrier seems harsh.

One understands one must discourage frivolous cases from following the process but surely there are other ways to do that apart from setting a very high barrier.

It’s just that whatever your mileage happens to be on Bain he’s in exactly the same boat as Ellis, Tamihere, Watson and others and I’m talking about the general principle here not just Bain himself.

As we know the legal system is designed by and modified by lawyers. Even many politicians are lawyers. I think on this issue it’s appropriate for the lawyers just this once to actually consult us as to what the barrier and process should be in this case. How about it, FIGJAM?
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December 28, 2010 12:31pm
RightNow

I was thinking of posting something semi serious, but I’m having more fun using my keyboard as a guitar:
http://www.kongregate.com/games/deface/santa-rockstar-metal-xmas-3
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December 28, 2010 1:35pm
reid

Good article on the warmist fanatics in the UK Met Office – why 3 times in a row they have said the winters are going to be warmer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/8223165/The-green-hijack-of-the-Met-Office-is-crippling-Britain.html
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December 28, 2010 2:13pm
Manolo

I cannot remember the name of the fellow commenter who brought to my attention the excellent book ‘Life at the bottom’ by Theodore Dalrymple. Thank you, whoever the person is.

The book is a must read for those interested in the underclass. Although written on England’s, it is very much applicable here. You’ll find in its entirety at http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2009/12/17/you-should-read-theodore-dalrymples-life-at-the-bottom-for-free-online/
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December 28, 2010 3:56pm
reid

Interesting video on the oligarchs and their rise and fall in Russia, pre-Putin when they sponsored Yeltsin’s second term and post-Putin when you-know-what-happened and they all went to London, just before one of them ended up in jail. Berezovsky BTW has ended up staying, since he alone, managed to bridge the gap with Putin. Wasn’t that nice.
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December 28, 2010 4:31pm
hj

“The weather we get in UK winters, for example, is strongly linked to the contrasting pressure between the Icelandic Low and the Azores High. When there’s a big pressure difference, the winds come in from the south-west, bringing mild, damp weather from the Atlantic. When there’s a smaller gradient, air is often able to flow down from the Arctic. High pressure in the icy north last winter, according to the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration(NOAA), blocked the usual pattern and “allowed cold air from the Arctic to penetrate all the way into Europe, eastern China, and Washington DC”(7). Another US agency, NASA, reports that the same thing is happening this winter(8).
http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2010/12/20/cold-burn/
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December 28, 2010 4:49pm
hj

“The charges were laid four weeks before she carried the flag for New Zealand at the Games opening and after the gorse removal disturbed soil, unsettling and diverting water from stream beds.”
….
should have known better?
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December 28, 2010 7:35pm
hj

I think Dalrymple brings the piece that is missing from the left-wing’s entirpretation
of The Spirit Level. As Keith Locke would say: “but we need to look at what has caused these people to behave (so) violently”. We can’t solve crime because officialdum has a paradigm that crims are passive victims of an unjust society.

http://www.city-journal.org/article01.php?aid=1371
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December 28, 2010 7:54pm
Inky_the_Red

Sad to read thar Professor Denis Dutton has died

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/4498558/Professor-web-entrepreneur-Denis-Dutton-dies
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December 28, 2010 11:33pm

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