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December 21, 2010 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 21 December 2010

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reid

They keep banging on about his mansion being worth 30 million. But, I understand it is worth only about 16 million.

If you have a look the Herald related Hotchin links, you see heaps of photos. It looks like a nice place, built over three full-size sloping sections. However those articles also say (a) soil stability problems (b) all the rooms are massive (c) it’s like he put a big house on the photo-copier and pressed x4. It just looks ridiculous and doesn’t work.

So it looks to me like a man with no taste and evidentally no ethics found himself in charge of a lot of OPM. The appalling thing is of course one expects a gentleman to have taste, at least. Bah.
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December 21, 2010 8:38pm
MyNameIsJack

I do not hate xianity, but I despise the idiots who claim to follow it and yet are vile, despicable scum.

Somewhere in the world a man has abducted a little girl. Soon he will rape, torture and kill her. If an atrocity of this kind is not occurring at precisely this moment, it will happen in a few hours, or days at most. Such is the confidence we can draw from the statistical laws that govern the lives of 6 billion human beings. The same statistics also suggest that this girl’s parents believe at this very moment that an all-powerful and all-loving God is watching over them and their family. Are they right to believe this? Is it good that they believe this?

Nah, they’re fucking gormless idiots.
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December 21, 2010 8:42pm
kaya

wreck1080 and NickB – I’m glad you were smart enough to realise it was a Ponzi scheme, many obviously weren’t. I certainly didn’t have a cent with them, probably because I didn’t have a cent to spare. 🙂

However I personally know of people who sold their farm, decided to downsize and retire. THOUGHT they were doing the right thing by hiring a “financial advisor”. Refused to put any of their money in middle or high risk investments. Were absolutely conned into believing that their investment was secure by some parasitical con artist working on commission in a system that is as bent as 9 dollar note. They thought they had done everything right.

Yes, we know that now, but as a non financial person unaware that swimming with sharks results in painful outcomes, what else were these people supposed to do? All credentials looked good, letters after the name, sharp suit, sharp car, fancy talk? These were not stupid people, they had others like Richard Long and Colin Meads telling them how good it all was. How is a cockie from the boondocks supposed to understand that? They were ripe for the picking and they got picked clean by vultures.

What sort of system allowe these scavangers to prey on the vulnerable in the first place? A fucking corrupt and bent one, bereft of real jobs and ways to truly increase wealth through the creation of real products and services that people actually want to buy.

The only good thing to come out of all this is that the financial sector is now looked upon with more disdain than used car dealers and real estate agents.

Then we witness a wet bus ticket to 3 of these conmen in our “justice” system.

“For investors to have confidence in the financial markets they need to know there will be quick and effective intervention by a law enforcement agency with the powers and resources to deal with serious and complex fraud,” Serious Fraud Office chief executive Adam Feeley said in a statement at the time.

Tui all round please.

The place really is turning into a shithole.

On the positive side, now is a great time to develop a business providing good products and services, REAL stuff, HONEST service, because people have had enough of the “cheap and easy” couple of decades we just endured. The sooner the better.
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December 21, 2010 8:43pm
Johnboy

“The only good thing to come out of all this is that the financial sector is now looked upon with more disdain than used car dealers and real estate agents.”

So they are still rated higher than our Politicians?

Fair enough I suppose. Lets face it even the worst of the arseholes haven’t screwed us as much as our glorious leaders have.
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December 21, 2010 8:48pm
dad4justice

“Nah, they’re fucking gormless idiots.”

Are you describing your personality disorders , MyNameIsClap,big bruv,fot and fugley?
Get help creep.
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December 21, 2010 8:50pm
MyNameIsJack

d4j, I hear there is a bridge missing a troll.

any one who believes, in the face of all the evidence, that there is a god and that god is good and that god cares about them is, by definition, a gormless fucking idiot,
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December 21, 2010 8:53pm
kaya

Reid – as an add-on to your list. This one from CNN is stunning.

Here is a list of companies we’ve confirmed are “Exporting America.” These are U.S. companies either sending American jobs overseas, or choosing to employ cheap overseas labor, instead of American workers.
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December 21, 2010 8:53pm
dad4justice

MyNameIsSlap – Is that Clap Fugley or Big Blouse talking tough?
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December 21, 2010 8:54pm
Johnboy

MNIJ:

May I suggest “gormless inter-coursing idiot”.

Just to avoid the demerit monster you understand. 🙂
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December 21, 2010 8:57pm
MyNameIsJack

Thanks johnboy, but I see no reason why we cannot use all the words in the English language. I will not be bowdlerised.
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December 21, 2010 9:00pm
kaya

Nice….

Field hospital needed for drunken London corporates

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business-editors-picks/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501981&objectid=10695634

“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars”
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December 21, 2010 9:01pm
nickb

Have to agree kaya.

Regarding the SFO, slightly different but I have a few friends in the finance industry.

The inside stories they tell about the competence of the Securities Commission (more correctly, the lack thereof) are quite illuminating.
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December 21, 2010 9:03pm
big bruv

Johnboy and MNIJ

Would “gormless fornicating idiot” also work?
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December 21, 2010 9:03pm
dad4justice

big blouse a true schizo on display.
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December 21, 2010 9:05pm
Johnboy

“I will not be bowdlerised.”

I quite agree MNIJ. Sounds damn painful to me.

I am more concerned that you will be Peguinised. 🙂
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December 21, 2010 9:07pm
kaya

Groom kills bride, best man, self at wedding

The website Globo.com quoted a sister of the bride who left before the shootings as saying she didn’t believe it was a crime of passion.

“My sister was a wonderful person who loved and wanted to be loved,” Lucia Helena Coelho was quoted as saying.

“He was happy, she was happy, the party was beautiful. His family adored her and doesn’t understand this,” Coelho told Globo.com. “He revealed himself as a sociopath who fooled the entire family and killed his best friend, who was … the best man.”

Sounds like he might have been the “best” man indeed! Oh hush ma mouth, obviously the groom was just a psychopath…….right.
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December 21, 2010 9:09pm
Nookin

Methinks this thread is being dadlerised. Give it a break Dad.
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December 21, 2010 9:11pm
dad4justice

Oh sorry Napkin I was only stating a fact that big bruv and MyNameIsJack are one and the same.
Point proven.
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December 21, 2010 9:15pm
Johnboy

Whats happening in marshmallow city Dad?

Did your earth move for you on the night of the great shake?
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December 21, 2010 9:18pm
big bruv

Ever heard of Andy Goram D4J?

He was/is a Scottish footballer who was diagnosed with schizophrenia, he played for Glasgow Rangers.

The Celtic crowd used to sing “there’s only two Andy Gorams” whenever Celtic played Rangers………. another fine example of religious tolerance in action.
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December 21, 2010 9:21pm
dad4justice

Johnboy today I had to strop the cows down in the paddock as the Nor Wester threatened to blow them away.

big bruv stop talking Jack Shit. Your intense hatred of Christ is beyond reason to which you need urgent intensive treatment.
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December 21, 2010 9:22pm
MyNameIsJack

But BB, most religious visions have come during mental disturbances, it’s why the mentally disturbed find religion so appealing.

Point proven.
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December 21, 2010 9:24pm
Johnboy

You’re a hard man Dad. I’ve never been brave enough to use bondage on anything bigger than a sheep. 🙂
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December 21, 2010 9:25pm
big bruv

D4J

How can I hate something that does not exist?
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December 21, 2010 9:27pm
dad4justice

Oh look big blouse and Jack agree. Just imagine what goes on in that insane twisted head. Gawd some people are real sick. fot and fugley will soon join the fray.
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December 21, 2010 9:28pm
Sonny Blount

Look what you’ve done DPF:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbuYb6lLHX8&feature=related
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December 21, 2010 9:30pm
kaya

Sonny Blount – now I see why there is such prejudice………lol
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December 21, 2010 9:38pm
Hurf Durf

kowtow, we both know that Puke Hansen is an auspicious liar. And, from yesterday, a racist genocidal self-loather:

A dwindling minority in a world of non-whites, your day will soon be done as the majority gradually puts you out to pasture.

Just imagine the bunk he fills his kid’s head with. I feel sorry for her.
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December 21, 2010 9:42pm
wat dabney

reid,

Sorry, but I’m afraid that list you posted really is nothing but a collection of complete irrelevancies which amount to nothing but a display of economic ignorance.

US manufacturing output is at an all time high, and the fact they US companies offshore so much of the grubby low-margin stuff is an indication of economic strength not weakness.
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December 21, 2010 9:46pm
reid

US manufacturing output is at an all time high, and the fact they US companies offshore so much of the grubby low-margin stuff is an indication of economic strength not weakness.

Well I’m looking forward to hearing and reading evidence about that strength all the time wat but I’m just not hearing it.

Like many I’ve seen quite a few cycles come and go and this one is different in that IMO it’s epochal. The US has never been played like a violin for so long. Offshoring got started with Bush 41 and Clinton and continued for fifteen years without anyone even caring then it was shielded for five years by share prices built on mortgages taken out to buy shares and then it wasn’t there anymore and what’s left.

That’s the less than rosy actual reality. It’s not attacking the US to recognise it and stare it in the face, you know. Also if you think those factors don’t exist or are exagerrated then sources are given in the article, go ahead and attack those. Those resonate with me prima facie because it’s what I’ve been reading for about ten years now and I’ve watched it happen in front of me.
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December 21, 2010 9:52pm
kaya

wat dabney – The US is toast (economically) unless there are some dramatic changes maded very soon. Actually it is toast now, it just hasn’t read the obituary yet. All that QE has done is give the financials more monopoly money to drive up the price of commodities.
Nuts.
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December 21, 2010 10:00pm
Luc Hansen

Kowtow

Thanks for the link. I think I misused the word in that context, but you really should stop stressing over that one instance. For your own sake. I don’t give a damn, actually, what you think. But I am concerned for your mental well being.

Hurf Durf

Please feel free to use facts (rather than gratuitous personal abuse) to prove me wrong. I like facts and, if confronted with new facts, I change my mind. What do you do?.

So go ahead. Change my mind!

Reid

Thanks.
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December 21, 2010 10:07pm
wat dabney

reid,

You haven’t explained what you see as a problem. Handing-off low margin, low skill jobs is surely a good thing.
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December 21, 2010 10:09pm
Luc Hansen

wat

not if we accepted tens of thousands of people into the country to fill those low paid jobs then turned the tap off!

That’s why I think the dole should be at least doubled. We did bad by these people, so we should recompense.
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December 21, 2010 10:21pm
wat dabney

kaya,

I agree that the US is toast. Not because of increasing globalisation (offshoring) but because, thanks to the lefties, the economy has been brought more and more under political control (as in all other Western countries.) Crony capitalism (aka fascism) has largely replaced true Capitalism, and combined with a socialised financial system which privatises profits and nationalises losses the result could only ever be disaster. Throw in state borrowing and plundering for the benefit of special-interest groups, and state-controlled central banking, and you have complete national ruin.

All very good reasons to restrict the power of the state to a few bare essentials.
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December 21, 2010 10:28pm
reid

Many things wat.

Firstly it’s not low-margin low-skill jobs lots of high value manufacturing technology in electronics, alloys, robotics, you name it, it’s all gone East and it won’t be long till they start to lure the university professors. The last real in-house capable heavy manufacturing industry they have is defence and aviation. One of them’s not a good thing to flood the market with.

Secondly the decimation of small and now medium town USA by Wal-Mart and cheap imports.

Thirdly the urgent and expensive infrastructure decay on the transport network.

Fourthly the fact her entire political leadership continues along the same path which lead them into this in the first place, like a cartoon character just walked off the cliff and he’s just hanging before he drops.

Lot’s of other things as well worry me, all of those 19 factors for example.
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December 21, 2010 10:37pm
Luc Hansen

I agree that the US is toast.

Not in our lifetime, or well beyond. Just look at the per capita income of its citizens compared to pretenders like China or India.

That’s why we need to stand up to them.

Weak at the knees Key and his mirror image Goff are definitely the wrong men for that job!
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December 21, 2010 10:39pm
kaya

wat dabney – I think one of the main problems is that the Government have NO control over central banking. Why would socialists throw billions of dollars into Wall Street? It appears that the US financial system has been hijacked.

I agree in restricting the power of the state as much as possible but the means of exchange should never be allowed to be run by private banks. It isn’t a “product”, it is a tool to allow society to trade with each other. Not a vehicle for insane profits and bonuses.
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December 21, 2010 10:40pm
Put it away

Luc Hands-on “I like facts and, if confronted with new facts, I change my mind. What do you do?.”

Oh for fuck’s sake, now you’re just taking the piss. Hardly a day goes by in here without you being busted for completely making something up to support whatever cause you already believe. Facts are what suits you, and if you don’t have any, you invent them.
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December 21, 2010 10:45pm
kaya

Well obviously the bigger the fraud, the lesser the punishment.

$700k got this fella over 4 years,

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/3855648/Company-director-jailed-for-tax-evasion

yet 5 Star directors get just over 2 years for almost $50 million. Is this company part of the DGS?
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December 21, 2010 10:54pm
wat dabney

reid,

Your fundamental error is that you see this as a zero-sum game. It isn’t.

We are not made poorer now that South Korea, for example, has gone from being a poor country to a relatively wealthy one. We get great imports from there.
And we will not be poorer as more Chinese people attain a decent standard of living. We will trade with them for mutual profit and both become richer.

Sure, not everyone is a winner in the short term all the time. But overwhelmingly the benefits outweigh the short-term disruptions. Think of all the countless jobs lost due to technological progress over the last century: bad for some in the short term, but overwhelmingly beneficial. It gives us the standard of living we enjoy today.

By any standard US manufacturing has done remarkably well over the last 20 years and more. You are simply mistaken to believe otherwise. Sure, the number of manufacturing jobs has fallen, but that’s a good thing because it’s due to productivity improvements (just as agricultural employment has dramatically decreased due to mechanisation.)

Small town America being decimated by imports? Hardly. Just what manufacturing capability did these places have to begin with? They are remnants of America’s agricultural history. All over the world people are moving to cities. These small towns are going to dwindle whatever happens.

As for the other things you mention, you are conflating economics with politics. I agree the US is heading over a cliff, but that’s because he lefties have introduced fascism and not because of globalisation.
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December 21, 2010 11:01pm
Hurf Durf

For Lucy Hansen, facts are irrelevant, only what he can pull out of his climate blogs and Naomi Klein books matter.
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December 21, 2010 11:26pm
Put it away

# kaya – “Well obviously the bigger the fraud, the lesser the punishment.

$700k got this fella over 4 years,

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/3855648/Company-director-jailed-for-tax-evasion

yet 5 Star directors get just over 2 years for almost $50 million. Is this company part of the DGS?

So presumably these cases are identical in every respect except the amount of money, for you to be able to make some kind of comparison? No important differences such as, the Five Star guys plead guilty?
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December 22, 2010 12:07am
RightNow

Luc at 5.43 pm, the main point “even at NASA they’re revising their climate sensitivity down for a doubling of CO2” remains true. But you can keep the candy.
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December 22, 2010 12:28am
reid

wat that’s not actually true. I understand very well the wealth equation, whereby you grow the pie by giving to others and in return you too become wealthy I understand it very well and its beautiful for it works in both spiritual and material arenas with equal elegance.

So I don’t play or believe in zero-sum. But I do believe in Karmic balance as I understand it which I emphasise is perhaps not how a scholar would see it, in any way. But I mean by that a evening out in the big picture. Do good things, things by and large work out. It plays out all the time second-by-second minute-by-minute etc everywhere on earth. Things get out of whack in wartime and they gradually return to balance.

Because this applies in every single arena of life family career wealth health social friends you can apply the analysis to any arena, including the political and geopolitical.

And that’s why I draw the conclusions I have. I genuinely don’t think the US has acted as a force for good in the world as it used to, for a few decades now. I think history proves me right everyday that more and more material is published and as more and more actual and real results involving real people’s lives in all countries but especially in the US itself reveal itself, in terms of their own parlous situation. The US people never asked expected nor wanted what they got but it happened nevertheless. This is a valueless judgement in that I always view the world in a-human concerns. That is an not anti-human attitude, it’s an a-human attitude as in the somewhat critical and significant distinction between immorality and amorality.

Therefore I neither condemn them nor praise them. They didn’t ask for it, it was done to them. I know that and I see it and therefore I have no harsh words at all indeed the opposite and my heart weeps, it really does, because I can see what’s coming to them.

As for the other things you mention, you are conflating economics with politics. I agree the US is heading over a cliff, but that’s because he lefties have introduced fascism and not because of globalisation.

OK. Economics is politics. Haven’t you noticed the Treasury is No. 1 and the RBNZ is No. 2 The Terrace, directly across the street from Parliament, there’s probably an underground tunnel as well. The pedestrian crossing lights just there are the most alacritous I’ve ever come across. Traffic stops all the time, for us. It’s quite good. (I share the route, I don’t work at either.) But generally what do you think that means in general global terms when you look round and do you think it’s coincidental?

Always a bad idea to mix facism and globalisation but not sure helpful. What we’ve observed from history is first Bush 41 trashed the US reputation with Iran-Contra [and a lot of other stuff] then Clinton trashed it again but at the same time he managed to implant the timebomb of the GFC by Greenspan merging the dot-bomb debt-bubble into the soon-to-be property market buying bonanza fuelled by deregulated derivatives and no-one repeat no-one understood in terms of their content.

Then Bush 43 et al to now. It’s quite obvious from the history wat. No analysis required.
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December 22, 2010 9:02pm

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