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December 18, 2010 8:33am by David Farrar

General Debate 18 December 2010

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MyNameIsJack

Manolo (2,518) Says:

December 18th, 2010 at 7:24 pm
Remember this next time the organisation asks for your money: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-152361/The-Red-Cross-bans-Christmas.html#ixzz18QQ1q5aP

And so they fucking SHOULD – some of their staff need to be reminded from time to time that the Red Cross is NOT a religious body.

Its why I am happy to donate.
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December 18, 2010 7:55pm
pollywog

Reid…are these families both dirt poor on the benefit, starving with no job prospects, who live in rented shitholes with bills backed up to last year and with say 3 kids each who are constantly dressed in rags and rarely got to school ?
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December 18, 2010 7:56pm
reid

No they’re good conservative Christian folk who wisely marshall and share their meagre resources and somehow miraculously survive the hardship to emerge stronger and better and who have left the “dark times” [their words] behind them.

Or that’s what they could be if they wanted to be.

Equally they could be as you described.

Which state do you think we should encourage them to move toward?
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December 18, 2010 8:14pm
bereal

Hey pollywog,
why are you unable to answer a straight question with a straight answer ?
The best you seem to manage is to answer a question with a question.
Thats when you are not abusing the questioner.

Typical of your type.
Good luck to your family.
They need it.
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December 18, 2010 8:19pm
pollywog

hmmm…good conservative christian eh ? so how does their outlook change if they are not ? cos there’s probably a lot more not good, not conservative, not truly christian out here in the ‘real’ world than not.

Maybe they were back in the day, but they kind of got a bit disillusioned with God, from watching all the greedy scumbags livin large within the ‘law’ and got tired waiting for the meek to inherit the earth.

Just wondering, are you a glass half empty, wondering where the rest of it is, or a glass half full, waiting for it to be filled kind of guy ?
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December 18, 2010 8:29pm
reid

Personally, I was wondering pollywog whether you were going to respond as promised with your statement above which promised:

i’ll answer it in kind [if you] frame your question in one coherent sentence…

…to which I did but still nothing substantive from pollywog. This is childish. Put up or shut up pollywog. You don’t have an answer do you. Not one. Not even a really eeeny weeeeny one you don’t even have one of those, do you.
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December 18, 2010 9:14pm
bereal

pollywog
have a try, just once to answer any question thats put to you.
Trust me , you will feel so much better the first time you do.

Your poor kids are going to grow up with a huge chip on their shoulders because they’ll find
out that the world is not fair and the wealth the fatcats and bankers have will not be distributed to them
just because they exist. As you have taught them.

People of your ilk just do not get it.

Back to the drawing board for you my friend.
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December 18, 2010 9:31pm
pollywog

Well to be fair reid, i’m still waiting for you to frame your question in one coherent sentence. As it is, i answered your question in kind. Maybe you were expecting a different answer, a really simple one like 42. So to put it simply, there are no simple answers and there is no truly correct answer.

Suffice to say the answer you seek is in my questions. Just because they’re on the same income doesn’t mean they make the same choices or have access to the same information to make informed choices. There’s mitigating factors like religion, culture, upbringing, education, employment etc etc that need to be taken into account.

All things being equal, both families shouldn’t be criminals or they both should, depending on whether you see their glasses as half full or half empty. The problem is, in this world, all things are not equal, least of all incomes or people.

You happy with that ?
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December 18, 2010 9:43pm
adze

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control
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December 18, 2010 9:50pm
reid

“You happy with that ?”

Uh.

Duh.

I’m not really sure pollywog for I don’t understand your point.

Lets try and deal with the world as it is rather than the world as we’d like it to be were everything just so simply super and also neaty that things just couldn’t be any better and it was Christmas time as well and everyone was gay, just imagine that.

Now tell me your plan re: how to get there from where we are now and explain how it’s better than mine, as outlined above.

The problem is, in this world, all things are not equal, least of all incomes or people.

This is not a problem pollywog this is quite simply reality. Wring your hands all you like it’s still reality. So everyone should earn as much as you do pollywog? Is that right? What do you earn pollywog? $60k? Sorry, that’s way not enough for me. If you earn that now, it means you’ve got less than a sixteenth of the skillset I have. Why the fuck do you want me to subsidise you? Why? What have you done, to deserve me?
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December 18, 2010 9:54pm
Luc Hansen

So Hurf, since you are happy to use Wikileaks to illustrate a point, I take it you have donated to the site? Especially to Assange’s legal defence fund?

I would also like to point out that of course Cuba’s health system is no longer its ideal because the US, with what can only be described as evil intent, keeps the country poor instead of engaging with its leadership with a long term goal of liberating the Cuban people. But the fact is that Cuba does assist many countries with its paramedics, usually in return for hard goods, like oil.

And I wonder why on earth such a cable should be classified as secret.

Finally, notice the weasel word…reportedly…”?
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December 18, 2010 10:08pm
bereal

You’ve just got to feel sorry for kids being raised with a parent such as polliwog.
Bye the way Reid, its no suprise you dont understand his/her point.
People of that ilk can only winge and whine that it’s not FAIR
they don’t have a point other than that the system is not fair. Others have more than they do.
They can offer no solution now communism is discredited.
Come on polliwog, you dont like democracy, what do you feel would be more fair ?
Try to answer a question directly, any question. I dare you.
What do you really want ?
Its like shooting fish in a barrel with polliwog because all he can do is winge and whine
there is never any alternative solution offered.
Try to adress any of these questions polliwog.
How about starting with your ideal solution.
Bet you can’t.
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December 18, 2010 10:28pm
pollywog

I’m not really sure pollywog for I don’t understand your point.

Choices is what makes the difference between the 2 families being criminal or not. Understanding the factors that go towards them making different ones given the same set of present circumstances is how we improve their/our lot.

The sole standard by which you want to measure the difference in choice is income. Not, in my books, a good enough yardstick. Measuring others as you wish to do by one’s own culture and values is not exactly foolproof either.

Your relative measure of criminal behaviour seems to be based on a level of tolerance towards soft crime and becoming less as crime escalates towards violence.

There are no absolutes. One man’s freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. Is their glass half empty wondering where the rest is or half full waiting to be filled ?

You don’t seem too happy if your cup doesn’t runneth over and expect we should all aspire likewise…why is that ?
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December 18, 2010 10:31pm
bereal

Thats got to take the cake tonight.
Luc Hansen
The problem with Cubas health system is that the USA keeps them poor.
You can only laugh.
The USA should engage with Cuban leadership to liberate the Cuban people
Is there a better example of confused, wrong headed, ludicrous logic anywhere ?
Well done Luc
Just for another laugh that was the best today.
The pittifull thing is, you probably believe that.
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December 18, 2010 10:46pm
pollywog

How about starting with your ideal solution.
Bet you can’t.

It’s probably something approaching PROUT theory with some Anarcho-Syndicalism thrown in for good measure which aren’t too dis-similar to traditional Pasifikan collectivised societal models.

a socio-economic theory developed in 1959 by Indian philosopher and spiritual leader Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar (1921-1990), as an alternative global economic model based on his neo-humanist spiritual philosophies

Prout is a system that places the value of life before the value of objects or money. Sarkar designed Prout to stimulate the poor to take responsibility for their own advancement, while ensuring everyone’s ongoing success via democratic representation and by placing limits on how much wealth could be accumulated

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_utilization_theory

Anarcho-syndicalists believe that only direct action – that is, action carried out by the workers themselves, which is concentrated on attaining a goal directly, as opposed to indirect action, such as electing a representative to a government position – will allow workers to liberate themselves.[6] Moreover, anarcho-syndicalists believe that workers’ organizations – the organizations that struggle against the wage system, and which, in anarcho-syndicalist theory, will eventually form the basis of a new society – should be self-managing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism

You happy with that ?
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December 18, 2010 10:50pm
Hurf Durf

A poll to make your heart sing.

I hope it’s more a reflection of Stuff’s readership than the great general public.

Cuba’s always been dirt poor, Puke. Before it was equally poor with Soviet economic aid, now it’s equally poor with the limited Canadian, European and Chinese business investment. Sorry you can’t blame the evil Yanqui Empire for everything.

P.S. I couldn’t care less about Wikileaks or Asshat, the diplomatic cables interest me because I am a geopolitics nerd. They also strengthen the case against Iran, something someone like you must hate.
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December 18, 2010 10:54pm
pollywog

What do you think of this Hurf ?

Who is Behind Wikileaks?

Iran’s Nuclear Program

The leaked cables are used to feed the disinformation campaign concerning Iran’s Weapons of Mass Destruction. While the leaked cables are heralded as “evidence” that Iran constitutes a threat, the lies and fabrications of the corporate media concerning Iran’s alleged nuclear weapons program are not mentioned, nor is there any mention of them in the leaked cables.

The leaks, once they are funnelled into the corporate news chain, edited and redacted by the New York Times, indelibly serve the broader interests of US foreign policy, including US-NATO-Israel war preparations directed against Iran.

Wikileaks, Iran and the Arab World

The released wikileaks cables have also being used to create divisions between Iran on the one hand and Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States on the other:

“After WikiLeaks claimed that certain Arab states are concerned about Iran’s nuclear program and have urged the U.S. to take [military] action to contain Iran, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton took advantage of the issue and said that the released cables showed U.S. concerns regarding Iran’s nuclear program are shared by the international community.” Tehran Times : WikiLeaks promoting Iranophobia, December 5, 2010)

The Western media has jumped on this opportunity and has quoted the State Department memoranda released by Wikleaks with a view to upholding Iran as a threat to global security as well as fostering divisions between Iran and the Arab world.

“The Global War on Terrorism”

The leaks quoted by the Western media reveal the support of the Gulf States and Saudi Arabia to several Islamic terrorist organizations, a fact which is known and amply documented.

What the reports fail to mention, however, which is crucial in an understanding of the “Global War on Terrorism”, is that US intelligence historically has channelled its support to terrorist organizations via Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. (See Michel Chossudovsky, America’s “War on Terrorism”, Global Research, Montreal, 2005). These are US sponsored covert intelligence operations using Saudi and Pakistani intelligence as intermediaries.

In this regard, the use of the Wikleaks documents by the media tends to sustain the illusion that the CIA has nothing to do with the terror network and that Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states are “providing the lion’s share of funding” to Al Qaeda, the Taliban, Lashkar-e-Taiba, among others, when in fact this financing is undertaken in liaison and consultation with their US intelligence counterparts:

By Michel Chossudovsky

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=22389
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December 18, 2010 11:13pm
reid

Choices is what makes the difference between the 2 families being criminal or not.

Correct and as I said, choices don’t cost even a single penny.

The sole standard by which you want to measure the difference in choice is income.

Grossly incorrect and represents fundamental misunderstanding. Suggest urgent re-read of today’s entire conversation re: this matter.
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December 18, 2010 11:25pm
bereal

OK pollywog you win. you actualy trumped Luc for the best laugh of the day.
Yeah , I’m happy with that.
So your answer is the teachings of Prabat Sankar.
That leaves you and Prabhat in a minority of 2
Just so I can really get it, in your mind what does ‘anarcho-sydndialist ‘mean other than the poor want more?,
Also, how old were you when you picked up/ were converted to this truth ?
Pasifican collectivised societal models, strewth. Sort of like Tonga ? or say Samoa ?
I bet you really believe this.
Has Luc heard of this truth ?
Maybe he could be the second deciple.
Mate, you must realise how rediculous you sound.
I dont believe you are really old enough to have kids of your own, but if you do
all i can repeat is, the poor sods, they have no chance.
Merry Christmas.
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December 18, 2010 11:31pm
pollywog

choices don’t cost even a penny.

everything costs. ain’t no such thing as a free lunch, somebody always pays

suggest you re-write coherently and think through the consequences instead.

so after all that, what was your point again ?
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December 18, 2010 11:38pm
bereal

pollywog
don’t keep revealing your ignorance by asking what was the point again and again.
If you don’t get it, just accept you cant get it.
Everybody else does.
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December 18, 2010 11:45pm
bereal

So much fun.
Better than shooting fish in a barrel.
Just go to sleep mate.
You’ve been found out.
Don’t make a bigger idiot of yourself.
Maybe you should call prabhat sankar for some guidence
you need some help mate.
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December 18, 2010 11:48pm
pollywog

au contraire my friend, i think you’ll find it is you who have been found out to be an ignorant dumbfuck who couldn’t string two words together to save himself, has trouble grasping higher concepts without ridiculing them and has to look to others for support while presuming to speak on their behalf

My advice to you, if you havent already bred, is to cut your penis off with a blunt knife right now and kill your kids in their sleep, if it’s too late and some sad sorry bitch let you procreate with her already. Save them from a lifetime of suffering having a dickhead for a parent and save your ancestors the shame of failure for having bred an evolutionary dead end.

hahaha…i’m afraid it is you and your kids who don’t stand a chance.

*mwah* g’night

[DPF: 50 demerits and goodbye for now]
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December 18, 2010 11:59pm
kaya

Money and finance now constitute a worldwide system. As it works today, it results in systemic inefficiency and injustice in almost every sphere. It imposes a perverse calculus of values, compelling or encouraging almost everyone in the world to compete against one another for a greater share of planetary resources and, in doing so, to turn planetary resources into waste.

Very wise words from a sensible fella, James Robertson.
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December 19, 2010 12:00am
Hurf Durf

So all the leaked cables are real except the stuff concerning Iran which is Zionist propaganda.

Nice one pollywog.
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December 19, 2010 12:09am
bereal

pollywog 11.59
oh dear, you just disgraced yourself mate.
I suggest another bevvy.
Maybe its just an alcohol problem.

Like I said, shooting fish, etc etc
When your superficial arguments run out you reveal your true colours.
Name calling, cut my penis off etc, etc. dear oh dear. I got to you big time eh ?

You must be ashamed of yourself.
Let yourself down would be an understatement.
How sad.
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December 19, 2010 1:01am
kaya

Wikileaks Drug firms tried to ditch Clark

Not that I wouldn’t have been glad to get rid of Clark, but to see proof that medical corporations are interfering in the country’s affairs is a concern. The tin foil hat “nutters” are being exonerated more with every leak. Well done Mr Assange.
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December 19, 2010 8:19am
Pete George

Kaya, that’s just US style politics, the lobbyist’s “democracy”, where the dollar rules the pork barrel republic.
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December 19, 2010 8:35am
kaya

It now appears that five adults knew about the abuse but turned a blind eye.

What the fuck is wrong with this generation? I know it has happened before but surely not to the extent we see today?
Poverty is no excuse, there is no excuse for torturing a child, especially your own progeny.
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December 19, 2010 8:45am
kaya

PG – I understand the lobbying thing (don’t agree with it) but this is a step beyond that. It is actually plotting to take down an elected representative because they don’t toe your company line. That is worrying. Or am I naieve?

What else has been happening that we don’t know about? I’m sure more will come out.
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December 19, 2010 8:48am
Pete George

Key exposed over Dalai Lama sounds alarm bells.

It is among an extensive collection of WikiLeaks cables about New Zealand – a staggering 250,000 words worth of cables

The only thing staggering about that is the overdramatisation. For some reason 250,000 seems to be an “in” number.

Among the cables is a briefing which stated that Key told Jiabao in April last year neither he nor any of his ministers would meet the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama.

“PM Key had earlier conversed with Premier Wen Jiabao concerning the Dalai Lama’s December 4-7 visit to Auckland, saying that neither he nor any of his ministers would meet with the Dalai Lama.”

Ok, Key tells Wen Jiabao something.

The statement broke a promise Key had made before the election

No details of the promise. Did Key make a specific “promise” that he broke?

But the statement might also have landed Foreign Affairs Minister Murray McCully in trouble after he assured Parliament that there was no boycott.

On November 19, Green MP Keith Locke asked McCully: “Is it government policy that no minister will officially meet with the Dalai Lama when he visits next month?”
McCully answered, “No”.

When does a decision who you are not going to meet become a boycott?

Political scientist Bryce Edwards said the disparity could be explained one of three ways – Parliament having been misled, the policy being “unofficial”, or the cable being wrong.

Ah, near the end of the item is some expert “balance”.

Key had left the country and was unavailable for comment yesterday. Spokesmen for acting Prime Minister Bill English and McCully did not respond by deadline.

And no official response in time, that could be clever stalling, or just inconvenient timing for the reporter.

Key may be a lying prat – or not. McCully may have misled the house – or not. But a dramatic story seems to have been decided on then built around a handful of the “staggering” number of words in the cables.

Have we been left in suspense for the holidays? Will the next few weeks be filled with anxiety, not knowing what the official intentions were? Does it really matter if the PM or any ministers meet some old religious dude? Should we be incensed we haven’t got a FTA agreement under way for prayer wheels and incense?
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December 19, 2010 9:43am
Pete George

What Key said on the Lama non-meeting last year:

Prime Minister John Key has decided not to meet Tibet’s exiled spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, when he visits in December.

Mr Key said he had received an invitation to meet the Dalai Lama, but had decided against accepting.

“I may in the future, but I have met with him in the past and decided on this occasion there is no particular need to meet with him,” Mr Key said.

Mr Key believed no ministers would meet the Dalai Lama, but a representative from the National Party might.

But it does seem to be a change of mind from:

Prime Minister John Key has said he will meet the Dalai Lama when he comes to New Zealand next year – one week after China retaliated against the French president for doing the same.

“The Prime Minister will treat the Dalai Lama in the same way as any other significant visitor, and will meet the Dalai Lama should his diary permit,” said a spokesman for Mr Key.

Maybe “his diary” didn’t permit. And the relative significance of the visitor was reassessed.
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December 19, 2010 10:04am
Viking2

HERE WE GO AGAIN.
DESPITE MANY CALLS FOR TRIMMING QUANGOES AND VARIOUS NON ENTITIES LIKE WOMENS AFFAIRS ETC ETC ETC. THE GOVT. IS INSTEAD ATTACKING ITS MOST IMPORTANT FUNCTION. SAFETY AND SECURITY OF THE RESIDENTS OF NEW ZEALAND.

Note the obstruction and confusion caused by Bill English.

Police facing cutbacks
Sunday Star Times
Last updated 05:00 19/12/2010

Police Minister Judith Collins
Getty Images
THINNER BLUE LINE?: Police Minister Judith Collins.

Police Minister Judith Collins hit the beat last week at the same time her Beehive colleagues were scrutinising police budgets.

Finance Minister Bill English confirmed there was “an appetite” for a spending review. The department’s budget had blown out to $1.5 billion in the past year.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4473967/Police-facing-cutbacks
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December 19, 2010 10:18am
Manolo

The honest Len Brown in action: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10695215
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December 19, 2010 10:22am
Viking2

This might just piss a lot of us good parents off. Has Sue Bradford got a new job?

All parents lie, declares Starship nurse
TONY WALL – Sunday Star Times
Last updated 05:00 19/12/2010
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A senior nurse at Starship hospital’s child protection unit told a conference of medical professionals that “all parents are liars until proved otherwise”, doctors who attended say.

The revelation comes after a Sunday Star-Times investigation into practices at the unit, Te Puaruruhau, revealed concern it is being run like a police station, with staff treating parents as guilty until proven innocent over unexplained injuries.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/4473859/All-parents-lie-declares-Starship-nurse
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December 19, 2010 10:24am
kaya

Viking2 – it seems the chair polishers are entrenched. The fronline staff will always go first, it’s the backroom parasites who call the shots. There is no one in Government with the balls to call it like it is and shut down those useless, waste of space and oxygen departments. Some of which you mentioned.
Someone once gave a full list on here whuch was very enlightening.
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December 19, 2010 10:33am
Viking2

So Mr Heatley isn’t up to the job once more.These Nat. ministers are a disgrace. Absolutely no control over their responsibilities and could care less it seems. Its worth poiunting out that not only did Uncle Bill remove the depreciation from the rental housing but now his cobbers is socking the repair bills for their tenants to the owners.

The Nats. are abusive towards their voters in exactly the same way the Labour pricks were. Is this a Beehive disease?

Landlords livid over Housing NZ treatment
ROB STOCK – Sunday Star Times
Last updated 05:00 19/12/2010

Revolt is brewing among private landlords leasing homes to Housing New Zealand in a commercial scheme set up to help reduce state house waiting lists.

The landlords, many of whom acquired their properties in the build-to-let schemes that flourished in the housing boom, say Housing New Zealand (HNZ) is mismanaging their properties, paying them less than the market rents they expected, and are too often siding with destructive tenants.

Some of the landlords are so hot under the collar they say their treatment at the hands of HNZ, which is currently advertising for more landlords to lease their properties to it, amounts to state-perpetrated fraud, or a “hidden tax” on private landlords.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/4473837/Landlords-livid-over-Housing-NZ-treatment
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December 19, 2010 10:38am
MT_Tinman

Pete George (8,375) Says:
December 19th, 2010 at 10:04 am

Maybe “his diary” didn’t permit. And the relative significance of the visitor was reassessed.

Hopefully reassessed to the correct would-be dictator of no significance at all.
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December 19, 2010 10:52am
MT_Tinman

Viking2

Are you telling us that private landlords are revolting?
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December 19, 2010 10:53am
Fisiani

copied from red alert for posterity

Monty get with the play.
Anything National does is always BAD
Anything Labour did was always GOOD
Stop laughing!!!
Put a question mark in the title (check)
Use the word considering (check)
intended (check) part (check)
make unsubstantiated allegations about Bill English (check)
Spin 101 Another face plant moment.
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December 19, 2010 11:11am
Pete George

That works both ways Fisiani, there’s a lot of it here as well.

What really cracks me up is seeing right-ish blogs full of “the MSM is anti us and pro them” – and exactly the same moans with role reversals on left-ish blogs. What those proponents really mean is they want all media coverage to support their view and rubbish their opponents, otherwise they see it as biased.
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December 19, 2010 11:21am
Viking2

Tinman; no its the fucking tenants that are revolting. Having cleaned up after a few I can vouch for it. Are you one, tenant I mean. Cause that could put you in the revolting category.
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December 19, 2010 11:22am
Fisiani

Pete what are you on?
Red Alert is nothing like Kiwiblog.
If you make a reasonable critisism it is deleted and a message left saying the post was offensive.
This leaves the readers thinking that the post was actually offensive.
There is only censorship of profanity here
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December 19, 2010 11:57am

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