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November 4, 2010 7:58am by David Farrar

General Debate 4 November 2010

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Yvette

I challenge Hone Harawira to declare a rahui on tobacco products.
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November 4, 2010 8:08am
Murray

Too many Maori are dying from smoking… ban all Maori from smoking. Seems like the obvious answer to me.

Ban them from KFC while we’re at it. No need to punish everyone.
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November 4, 2010 8:12am
mawm

Too many Maori are drowning…ban them from the foreshore…;)
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November 4, 2010 8:30am
Inventory2

Wellington’s new Mayor has hit the news …

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/11/quote-of-day-thursday-4112010.html

Did she offer to dub Hillary back into town?
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November 4, 2010 8:32am
Murray

How much rate payers money is she pissing away by spending an hour and half peddling about on the rate payers dime when she should be working Inv?
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November 4, 2010 8:34am
david

What is the carbon footprint of reflective vest material, fibreglass, polycarbonate and resin (as in helmet), batteries and flashing lights?
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November 4, 2010 8:55am
Scumsucker

From The Gates of Vienna…

The Iranian “adulteress” who was sentenced to death by stoning and then reprieved will die tomorrow. The regime announced that Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani will be executed by hanging on Wednesday, November 3.

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/

No outrage on Frogblog. No outrage at the ‘Greens’ website.

Thundering silence.

What is wrong with their munted brains?

FFS
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November 4, 2010 8:55am
shady

So are Labour and Green MP’s still the biggest troughers?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10685209
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November 4, 2010 8:58am
Murray

http://hurryupharry.org/2010/11/02/urgent-sakineh-will-be-executed-on-nov-3-join-us-to-save-her-life/

There you go Scum.

Where the hell is the Iranian embassy in Wellingto anyway?
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November 4, 2010 9:02am
backster

I wonder if Keith Locke, Norman, or that mad woman will be waiting to ambush Hilary in the Parliamentary foyer.
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November 4, 2010 9:05am
adze

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_2010_Baghdad_church_attack

So, I guess we can expect the Catholic priests around the world to stir up rallies of thousands, with burning effigies, threatening placards, and angry faces shouting into TV cameras on tonight’s news?

No…?
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November 4, 2010 9:08am
Offshore_Kiwi

Nope backster, I imagine they’ll be too busy writing protest letters, putting up blogposts and organising a protest against the stoning of Sakineh by the adherents to the religion of peace.

Or mebbe not. The American left is a much better (i.e. less incendiary) target than the religion of peace.
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November 4, 2010 9:10am
Komata

‘The welcome party also included Wellington mayor Celia Wade-Brown, who arrived at the terminal at 4.55am on her bicycle;’

Ummm, Wellington, my favourite city, you appear to have acquired a nutcase as your Mayor.

The most powerful foreign diplomat TO HAVE VISITED THIS COUNTRY IN YEARS, from the most powerful country in the world arrives on your city’s doorstep, and your Mayor arrives on a BICYCLE!!!!

I have no idea about what Ms Clinton must have thought, but words like ‘Hick-town’, ‘Quaint’, Ridiculous, and ‘Pathetic’ come to mind, as does the old military phrase ‘Conduct Unbecoming’

Your Mayor has the courage of her convictions, but I do wonder if being made a laughing stock as a result of them wass really what you had in mind when you elected her as Mayor of your fair city.

I can see the headlines now: ‘Mayor on a bicycle – diplomats left stranded’, ‘Wellington, laughing Stock of the World’, ‘Wellington – in a word ‘Cute’, Wellington’s Mayor ‘Sorry i’m late, my ‘bike had a puncture’ etc, etc, etc,

I hope that I’m wrong, , but one must wonder how she will greet any further diplomat who dares to arrive at Rongatai? On Roller Blades?

BTW – how did she return home . . . .?

One wonders.
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November 4, 2010 9:10am
CraigM

Tamihere is to be released after 20 years or so.

Prior to his committing a double murder with obvious sado-sexual overtones, he had a conviction for manslaughter. At the time of his arrest he was wanted by police for sexual assault of which he was later found guilty and was serving that sentence concurrently with the murder sentence.

Now, apparently, he has been rehabilitated and is no longer a danger to society.

Was his sentence long enough?
Should he have been kept inside until he revealed the whereabouts of Heidi Paakkonen’s body?

I can understand he may not be the same person today that he was at the time of his brutal crimes, but I feel very uneasy about him being out of prison. 10 years for each murder and the sexual assault thrown in for free seems a very low price to pay.

I know that there are those who will propose the cost of keeping him in prison outway his potential danger or non danger (hi Rex) to society, but I just feel that justice for the victims, including the families, has not yet been delivered.
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November 4, 2010 9:15am
TCrwdb

‘The welcome party also included Wellington mayor Celia Wade-Brown, who arrived at the terminal at 4.55am on her bicycle;’

How does one go about explaining the sweaty underarms and body odour…. shudder…
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November 4, 2010 9:17am
DavidR

“How much rate payers money is she pissing away by spending an hour and half peddling about on the rate payers dime when she should be working Inv?”

Read the story again, Murray. Wade-Brown arrived at the terminal at 4.55am. Clinton arrived at 6.08am. Presumably she’d ber back on her bike by 7.00am.

What time do you start work anyway?

And if the story makes headlines around the world, so what? Isn’t she leading by example?

cheers
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November 4, 2010 9:17am
Murray

Offshore they’re not going to stone her, Iran has listened to the concerns of the world and has decided that stonning might be wrong. So they’re going to hang her.
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November 4, 2010 9:19am
Ryan Sproull

Capital punishment is fucking barbaric, however it’s done. Do we export meat to Iran? Can’t we threaten to stop?
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November 4, 2010 9:35am
Murray

Shit no, you can’t go upsetting Muslims Ryan. We’re passing a special law to STOP kosha killing practices just as we passed special laws to PERMIT Halal killing.

We should be so proud being the only western country to introduce laws to restrict Jewish practices since Nazi Germany while bending over to take it from Muslims.
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November 4, 2010 9:49am
Ryan Sproull

Shit no, you can’t go upsetting Muslims Ryan. We’re passing a special law to STOP kosha killing practices just as we passed special laws to PERMIT Halal killing.

I haven’t heard about this. Why a law to stop kosher killing?
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November 4, 2010 9:55am
Murray

David she has to get back to work, I did read it you read it idiot, whendid the plane arrive. If you want to pay your mayor to fucking arsing about making a politcal statment on your money go nuts.

Clearly your fucking mayor has.
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November 4, 2010 10:01am
CHFR

# shady (116) Says:
November 4th, 2010 at 8:58 am

So are Labour and Green MP’s still the biggest troughers?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10685209

YEP based on that article.
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November 4, 2010 10:05am
kaya

So the Fed has decide to throw another $600 billion Disney dollars (with the option for more later!) into the markets for the speculators to play with.

Good article covering possble outcomes here:

http://www.moneyweek.com/investments/fed-reserve-quantitative-easing-junk-bond-market-04313.aspx#comments

The bubble in the financial markets is going to get bigger than it already is. It should make the coming pop extremely interesting (and loud). Cover your ears!!
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November 4, 2010 10:09am
MikeNZ

Ryan
it was discussed on KB a few months ago.
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November 4, 2010 10:19am
MikeNZ

Scumsucker (40) Says:
November 4th, 2010 at 8:55 am

what is wrong with our brains and the UN members brains, Iran is in line to be part of the leadership team for womans rights at the UN and we have not protested as a UN member.
Go the Nats.

give a free trade agreement to China and ignore women (and men) being raped and murdered by a fellow member’s state organs!
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November 4, 2010 10:22am
MikeNZ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Teiaxmaas&feature=player_embedded

well worth watching.
it also has a pt 2,3 4.
hat tip – the gates of vienna.
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November 4, 2010 10:25am
DavidR

Idiot, Murray? Having comprehension problems? What part of “the plane arrived at 6.08am” would you like explained?
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November 4, 2010 10:32am
Ryan Sproull

Okay, found it.

It’s not so much banning kosher killing specifically, but mandating humane killing practices across the board. I can see why practising Jewish people would be upset by it. Religious freedom versus animal rights. Tricky one.

Was there no consultation before the law change went through?
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November 4, 2010 10:33am
Ryan Sproull

Oh, interesting update. Shechita has resumed in New Zealand, and the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee actually recommended that an exemption was provided for kosher killing. The Minister (David Carter) chose to ignore the recommendation.
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November 4, 2010 10:40am
big bruv

Nothing tricky about it at all Ryan.

There is no reason why animals should have to suffer just because of stupid religious beliefs.
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November 4, 2010 10:46am
TripeWryter

Stuff had a story this morning about one William Findlay, of Wellington, who says that a staffer from the prime minister’s office told him he could not ask a question of John Key on Justin du Fresne’s morning talkback (NewstalkZB, Wellington).

Findlay says he wanted to ask Key about the remarks Maurice Williamson made at a builders’ dinner about Muslims apropos Paul Henry’s about the governor-general.

I don’t know Findlay, and I don’t care much about his question. I don’t know Williamson either, and I have no opinion on his comments.

What I do care about is a flack from the prime minister’s office usurping the role of the station’s staff. That should not have been allowed to happen.

And I am surprised that NewstalkZB has apparently not told the prime minister and his office that such a thing must not happen again.

NewstalkZB bills du Fresne’s sessions with the prime minister as a forum where you get to ask questions of the prime minister. If the producer had flagged the call I’d have no problem. She is a staffer presumably with the right to exercise that responsibility.

It ain’t the prime minister’s PA, or whoever.
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November 4, 2010 10:54am
Ryan Sproull

Nothing tricky about it at all Ryan.

There is no reason why animals should have to suffer just because of stupid religious beliefs.

Your concern for the animals’ well-being is a part of your worldview, and the rightness of their ritual killing methods are part of theirs. Nothing stopping them from saying, “There is no reason why our religious practice should be impeded just because of stupid sentimentalism for animals.”
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November 4, 2010 10:57am
adze

“Nothing stopping them from saying, “There is no reason why our religious practice should be impeded just because of stupid sentimentalism for animals.””

Exactly, which is the main problem with moral relativism.

The question is, who decides which world view wins out, and how?
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November 4, 2010 11:08am
big bruv

There is every reason in the world Ryan.

My world view is based on fact, the Kosher way of slaughtering an animal is cruel.

Their world view is not based on fact, it is based on stupid middle eastern superstition.
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November 4, 2010 11:09am
eszett

Exactly, which is the main problem with moral relativism.

Just how does moral absolutism help you in this case?
Is it morally right to kill an animal in cruel way (i.e. causing unnecessary suffering and distress) just because your religion demands it?
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November 4, 2010 11:14am
Ryan Sproull

Exactly, which is the main problem with moral relativism.

The relative nature of morality is a fact. What we have here is a problem with reality.

The question is, who decides which world view wins out, and how?

Historically, the people with the bigger guns. More optimistically, worldviews are seldom completely distinct and separate. The most effective way of dealing with such differences is to look for values that are common to both, and argue each case from a standpoint of that common ground.
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November 4, 2010 11:17am
KevinH

The fault with moral relativism is that it is subjective and interpretive according to your specific moral and ethical code.
For instance in India according to Hindi belief cows are sacred and are not a food source of first choice. In New Zealand we don’t eat possums and rabbits which other cultures would. There are numerous examples of this behaviour and we could have fun listing them.
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November 4, 2010 11:54am
Ryan Sproull

The fault with moral relativism is that it is subjective and interpretive according to your specific moral and ethical code.

That’s not so much a criticism of moral relativism as a description of it.
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November 4, 2010 11:56am
adze

@eszett
You’re assuming I’m arguing from a moral absolutist standpoint. I’m not. I’m pointing out a key problem in contemporary ethics.

@Ryan Sproull

The relative nature of morality is a fact. What we have here is a problem with reality.

Actually, I would argue amorality is a fact. Morality in general is a construct – it has no independent existence at all except in terms of “what will work” in any given context – which does depend on what is a) possible and b) valued, but not on moral principles.

Historically, the people with the bigger guns. More optimistically, worldviews are seldom completely distinct and separate. The most effective way of dealing with such differences is to look for values that are common to both, and argue each case from a standpoint of that common ground.

I like your optimistic scenario. But it’s easier said than done, particularly when two competing values (religious demands and animal rights) are held equally strongly. In these cases the “home rule” applies, I would have thought, which is why the Welfare organisation’s decision surprised me. I’d be interested to see their statement.
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November 4, 2010 12:04pm
MikeNZ

Worldview is everything isn’t it?

The core position for me is what is best for the animal if it is going to be killed before processing.

Assuming the core position isn’t should animals be killed for food 🙂
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November 4, 2010 12:07pm
Kris K

Are the Xenophobes Correct?

What was that about the cultural vibrancy of multi-culturalism again??
————————————–
German minister criticises Muslim youths

Berlin – German Family Minister Kristina Schroeder on Tuesday criticised Muslim youths for displaying hostility towards Germans. “Such abuse is unfortunately commonplace amongst youths in certain areas – in the school yard, but also in the underground,” Schroeder told daily tabloid Bild. “We are dealing with fundamentally hostile attitudes towards other groups – particularly against Germans and Christians,” the minister continued, adding, “We need to act as decisively against this as against xenophobia.”
[Continues]

[Hat tip: Redbaiter, Crusader Rabbit.]

“We need to act as decisively against this as against xenophobia.”

What do you mean – “as against xenophobia”? This IS xenophobia in the truest sense. Muslims view all non Muslims as sub-human; no better than animals. Most of us here know that for a Muslim to kill an infidel is not murder according to Sharia law, but in fact is one of the highest callings for a Muslim – Allah commands the Muslim to rise up and kill the Jew, the Christian, and the infidel.

When is the West going to wake up to the fact that we need to revoke the invitation to Islamic immigrants. And those already here (ie naturalised citizens) are ticking time bomb enemies of the state just waiting to be activated when the time is right.

As much as I believe all citizens of a country should be entitled to call it home, I think we need to make an exception in the case of 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims. They are loyal first and foremost to Islam, and to the establishing of a global Islamic caliphate. On that basis I believe they should all be repatriated to the Islamic homeland of their parents/grand parents.

Did I say before that I believe all, yes ALL, Muslims are enemies of the state – enemies of the Judeo-Christian West and the freedoms and democracy which under-gird it. Time to wake up to this fact!
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November 4, 2010 12:13pm
Ryan Sproull

I like your optimistic scenario. But it’s easier said than done, particularly when two competing values (religious demands and animal rights) are held equally strongly. In these cases the “home rule” applies, I would have thought, which is why the Welfare organisation’s decision surprised me. I’d be interested to see their statement.

Well, there’s more to a religiously Jewish person’s values than simply Judaism, and there’s more to Judaic values than simply killing animals without any marks on the body. The Torah includes a sense of God mandating Man with a sort of stewardship over creation, which could provide some common ground with those concerned about animal rights.

According to the BBC, “Judaism teaches that animals are part of God’s creation and should be treated with compassion. Human beings must avoid tzar baalei chayim – causing pain to any living creature.” That link also includes a large number of relevant verses in the Torah.

And, on the other hand, there is more to the values of animal-rights-concerners (gonna need a better noun) than simply the way in which an animal is killed. I would expect that most people concerned about animal rights are also concerned about religious freedom (Big Bruv being exceptional rather than the norm, if I’m right).

So there’s some common ground there, I think. And that’s how competing worldviews talk in a morally relativistic world.
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November 4, 2010 12:29pm
malcolm

@Kris

Did I say before that I believe all, yes ALL, Muslims are enemies of the state..?

IIRC, you’ve mentioned it once or twice before.
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November 4, 2010 12:33pm
kaya

Whatever you say about Islam, their banking system makes ours look like Bernie Madoff on a greedy day.

“The beauty of Islamic banking and the reason it can be used as a replacement for the current market is that you only promise what you own. Islamic banks are not protected if the economy goes down — they suffer — but you don’t lose your shirt

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/30/AR2008103004434.html
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November 4, 2010 12:50pm
Jack5

The Hooer-ald makes a mistake today in linking a surge in the NZ dollar today to unemployment and other NZ figures.

The kiwi dollar has surged because the US is about to print $US600 billion worth of cash to try to stimulate the US economy.
This means world currency war is in full swing, and NZ export industries will come under enormous pressure. NZ is but a cork on the world economic ocean.

A good report on the US spendup:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8108735/Fed-prints-another-600bn-to-keep-US-recovery-on-track.html

And the Hooer-ald

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10685235
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November 4, 2010 12:52pm
Kris K

Further to my comment at 12:13 – Of course we have our own issues regarding problems with Muslim immigrants/refugees here in New Zealand:

1) A mate of mine who taught at Hutt Valley High said they had a lot of trouble at the college with Somali/Muslim students. One thing I recall him saying was the Somali/Muslim male students had major issues with respecting female students and teachers.

2) And we of course have our own case of a Muslim in New Zealand who hijacked a plane and knifed both of the pilots and a female passenger back in 2008:

Plane hijacker’s troubled history

Two pilots have been praised for a “miraculous” landing after being injured in an alleged hijacking by a crazed, knife-wielding woman.

The pilot and co-pilot both suffered knife wounds, apparently in confrontations with a 33-year-old Blenheim woman of Somali descent, but managed to bring the Beechcraft 19-seater down at Christchurch Airport.

One of the pilots had surgery on his cut hand in Christchurch Hospital.

A female passenger suffered minor injuries during the Eagle Air flight from Blenheim yesterday while trying to restrain the woman.

After it landed, six passengers were taken to safety while the woman was dragged from the aircraft by waiting members of the armed offenders squad and forced to the ground in scenes described by one witness as reminiscent of a Bruce Willis movie. […]

And while it sounds like she had mental health issues, it doesn’t alter the fact that the first hijacking of an aircraft in New Zealand was carried out by a Muslim. I can almost gaurantee that even in little old New Zealand when people on aircraft see that someone on board is obviously Muslim (or Somali, for that matter, and therefore possibly Muslim) that they feel less safe than otherwise.

Once again, do we really want or need these people in our country?
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November 4, 2010 12:53pm
Ryan Sproull

I can almost gaurantee that even in little old New Zealand when people on aircraft see that someone on board is obviously Muslim (or Somali, for that matter, and therefore possibly Muslim) that they feel less safe than otherwise.

Once again, do we really want or need these people in our country?

People who feel unsafe around dark-skinned people? Probably not, but there are an awful lot of them.
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November 4, 2010 12:55pm
eszett

As usual, Kris K, picks out just the parts he likes and leaves out the rest. If you continue on reading you’ll find:

Schroeder emphasised that she was criticising a small group of Muslim youths, and said their hostile behaviour was down to “poor education and bad friends, as well as macho norms and family violence”.

Ooops, doesn’t fit your narrative of ALL MUSLIMS ARE ENEMIES rhetoric, does it?

Your hatred and your bigotry is vile and sickening. Threats to our freedom and secular democracy are by those spewing hatred, ignorance and intolerance.
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November 4, 2010 1:02pm
TimG_Oz

My world view is based on fact, the Kosher way of slaughtering an animal is cruel.

What fact? The animal loses blood pressure to the brain, and therefore conciousness immediately. However, how often does stunning actually fail? If stunning can fail, surely that is actually the more cruel option.

Their world view is not based on fact, it is based on stupid middle eastern superstition.

Actually no, it is based on the requirement that cruelty to animals is forbidden.
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November 4, 2010 1:08pm
bearhunter

“They are loyal first and foremost to Islam…”

Kris, I find it odd that a fervent Christian should complain about anyone putting their god above the country they live in. After all, Lord Denbigh’s claim back in theb 1870s to be “a Catholic first and an Englishman second” was backed up by Matthew 10:37 – “HE that loveth his father or his mother more than Me is not worthy of Me.”
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November 4, 2010 1:12pm
Kris K

Ryan Sproull 12:55 pm,

People who feel unsafe around dark-skinned people?

Nah, Ryan – just those dark skinned people who are likely to be Islamic. And even then it’s the Islamic bit, not the dark skinned bit that is the worry. Mind you, if you converted to Islam, Ryan, and I knew you were on the same flight as me, I’d be just as worried – eh whiteboy? Shades of Australian Muslim David Hicks.
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November 4, 2010 1:12pm
Pete George

People I see in the streets here (frequently) who I presume are Muslims worry me far less than the religious supremacist (supposedly Christian) comments I see on this blog.
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November 4, 2010 1:19pm
stephen

Unemployment down to 6.4%

Still, the survey “has lost some of its credibility of late because of volatility” and it may not be enough alone to shift the central bank’s thinking. http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/4307357/Unemployment-rate-down

Anyone know what their sample size is??
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November 4, 2010 1:19pm
Kris K

eszett 1:02 pm,

As usual, Kris K, picks out just the parts he likes and leaves out the rest. If you continue on reading you’ll find:

Schroeder emphasised that she was criticising a small group of Muslim youths, and said their hostile behaviour was down to “poor education and bad friends, as well as macho norms and family violence”.

Ooops, doesn’t fit your narrative of ALL MUSLIMS ARE ENEMIES rhetoric, does it?

While Schroeder emphasis the so called “small group” and the “poor education and bad friends, as well as macho norms and family violence” aspects – we KNOW this is just politically correct posturing with the aim of not offending wider Islam.

I noticed you ignored my earlier point where Schroeder ALSO said, “We need to act as decisively against this as against xenophobia”, and where I highlighted that THIS was the perfect example of Islamic xenophobia directed by Muslims against Christains and native Germans. Somehow she didn’t even want to identify this for what it is. Must appease the Islamists at ALL costs.

So who’s really just picking out the bits they like, Eszett – me or you?
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November 4, 2010 1:27pm
Chthoniid

Of course, the first act of international terrorism in NZ was actually undertaken by the French. I propose we follow Kris’s exhortations and begin, first, by invading and occupying France (no more appeasement!).
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November 4, 2010 1:29pm
Manolo

Where is the brave Father Gerald Burns to protest and smear blood at the door of the Iranian embassy?
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November 4, 2010 1:30pm
Jack5

Reluctant as I am to get involved in the daily religious debate on Islam, in response to Kaya’s 12.50 post:

The core of Islamic banking is outlawing of riba, or the earning of interest on funds invested. According to Wikipedia these are Islam’s “seven heinous sins”:

* Believing in gods other than Allah.
* Magic.
* Murder.
* Riba.
* Unlawfully taking orphans’ money.
* Fleeing the battlefield.
* Accusing chaste, pious women.

IMHO, Islamic banks contort themselves to disguise interest as something else. Examples are they share profits with depositors. This will be up to a limit to allow the institution to continue function, so is equivalent to paying interest, or more specifically say interest on say non-cumulative preference shares. Dividends on shares as a whole seem similar, at least in dividend structure.

Islamic banks seem happy to use a discount structure to pay interest, as happens with discounted bills in Western capitalism. It is just interest by another name.

The Washington Post article Kaya refers to at 12.50 includes this:

Rather than lend money to a home buyer and collect interest on it, an Islamic bank buys the property and then leases it to the buyer for the duration of the loan. The client pays a set amount each month to the bank, then at the end obtains full ownership. The payments are structured to include the cost of the house, plus a predetermined profit margin for the bank.

This system is of course equivalent to interest. A mortgage over a borrower’s property ties the borrower to the bank similarly, with full ownership coming when this is paid off. The “predetermined profit margin” is another way of saying bank interest. The Islamicists just call this profit margin instead.

Other features of Islamic bankers are paralleled by various Western institutions – for example there are plenty of ethical investors around, and there are plenty (now) who shy away from derivatives etc.

How would you judge which Islamic bank is better than another? Which is safer than another? How would you judge the sharia board with the final say?
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November 4, 2010 1:34pm
adze

“* Fleeing the battlefield.”

Had to chuckle at this one… doesn’t quite fit in with the rest somehow.
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November 4, 2010 1:38pm
MikeNZ

Ryan Sproull (3,876) Says:
November 4th, 2010 at 12:55 pm

again you twist what is said just a little bit don’t you?
you are like petey boy when you do that.

Kris was clearly talking about Muslims and aircraft passengers.
An issue I KNOW you are aware with, with a high profile US TV/Radio person being sacked saying the same thing onm FOX.

This is a repeated deceitful manner by you.
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November 4, 2010 1:38pm
Kris K

bearhunter 1:12 pm,

“They are loyal first and foremost to Islam…”

Kris, I find it odd that a fervent Christian should complain about anyone putting their god above the country they live in. After all, Lord Denbigh’s claim back in theb 1870s to be “a Catholic first and an Englishman second” was backed up by Matthew 10:37 – “HE that loveth his father or his mother more than Me is not worthy of Me.”

While I’m not Roman Catholic, but a Christian, there is no conflict between Christianity and the state – Christian citizenship is a heavenly one – our aim is not to overthrow the secular authorities and establish a Christian caliphate here on earth. Whereas Islam’s primary goal is to establish a global Islamic caliphate here on earth and convert or kill all non Muslims. You guys continue to miss the point regarding the threat Islam represents to Western Judeo-Christian democracies. And this is no more apparent than your continuing to equate biblical Christianity with Islam. More fool you.
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November 4, 2010 1:38pm
Kris K

Pete G[e]orge 1:19 pm,

People I see in the streets here (frequently) who I presume are Muslims worry me far less than the religious supremacist (supposedly Christian) comments I see on this blog.

Another moronic mouth breather who continues not to see the woods for the trees. You really are a waste of good oxygen, Petey.
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November 4, 2010 1:42pm
Michaels

QUOTE OF THE WEEK

Larry Williams to David Farrar…….

“you don’t really drink though”.

source….. 5:40ish NTZB 🙂
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November 4, 2010 1:44pm
MikeNZ

bearhunter (766) Says:
November 4th, 2010 at 1:12 pm

Firstly, name one Christian who loves his/her God before man who has blown up a plane, building or him/herself?

Secondly, If William Wilberforce et all didn’t have that worldview slavery would not have been fought in the house of commons for 20yrs+ until it was made illegal.
The issue Christians work legally unless the authority is illegal or a dictator.

Whereas because of Taqiyya — Religious Deception a Muslim can lie, cheat or break any law if it is in the furtherence of Dawa, ie the Islamisation of a territory or person(s)

Wake up, I have access to the same material as you have.
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November 4, 2010 1:44pm
joana

Kris K
Did you realize the woman you wrote about who did the hijacking is up on another charge? She threw a pot of boiling water over a prison guard..Prison guards are reasonably well paid but noone is paid enough for this horror. She should be deported..Aussies are able to revoke citizenship , we should be able to also.
And no we don’t want these people here..all they do in other western countries is drain the welfare system and hugely increase the crime rate..They are the quintessential non-contributors.
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November 4, 2010 1:45pm
MikeNZ

That’s why he is on my RIP Kris.
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November 4, 2010 1:45pm
Manolo

Islam is a barbaric and vile religion which deserves no respect. I’m utterly intolerant with the intolerant Islamofascists.
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November 4, 2010 1:45pm
MikeNZ

and their enablers too.

http://www.politicalislam.com/
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November 4, 2010 1:46pm
eszett

we KNOW this is just politically correct posturing with the aim of not offending wider Islam.

I noticed you ignored my earlier point where Schroeder ALSO said, “We need to act as decisively against this as against xenophobia”, and
where I highlighted that THIS was the perfect example of Islamic xenophobia directed by Muslims against Christians and native Germans. Somehow she didn’t even want to identify this for what it is. Must appease the Islamists at ALL costs.

“you highlighted”, “you know”!! Of course you do, Kris, you know everything. God himself talks to you, doesn’t he?

YOU saw the things that you want to see. Never mind what she actually said, YOUR version of the truth is that ALL Muslims are evil. Since she didn’t actually say that, then she is appeasing. Such logic!

Spreading such hatred and intolerance like you do is surely not helping and must be acted upon just as decisively.
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November 4, 2010 1:46pm
Pete George

“Islam’s primary goal….”

According to the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Holy Qur’an and the many Hadith’s, the ultimate goal of Islam is the submission of the entire world to Islam.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Whats_the_goal_of_Islam

The goal of Christianity is that people could be forgiven of their sins- which separate them from God and come to have a personal relationship with Him.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_goal_of_christianity

Some Christians in the past have tried to convert the world to their belief systems. But in the modern world I suspect the majority know that is not possible or practical. And a bizarre concept, given the many branches each religion has. If Christians, or Muslims, were able to take over the world completely they would simply argue and fight amongst their own factions – as many have and do already on a sub-global scale.
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November 4, 2010 1:50pm
MikeNZ

Jack5 (2,263) Says:
November 4th, 2010 at 1:34 pm

good last question jack.

My answer is it must be to the level of what Sharia means?

If using Sharia banking aids Dawa or Sharia law anywhere in the world then clearly Sharia banking is part of the problem of Sharia law.
That all Muslims and Muslims companies give zakat, knowing that it can go to Jihad also brings that realm into the mix for decision making.

Sharia Finance is but part of Political Islam and part of the process/program of creeping Sharia.

http://www.politicalislam.com/
http://www.jihadwatch.org/islam-101.html
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November 4, 2010 1:51pm
eszett

# Manolo (2,176) Says:
November 4th, 2010 at 1:45 pm

Islam is a barbaric and vile religion which deserves no respect. I’m utterly intolerant with the intolerant Islamofascists.

No religion deserves respect. Why would it?
I am also utterly intolerant of any fascists, be it based on Islam or the Christian version.

And mind you there are more of the christian version here on this blog.
You are kidding yourself if you think they are any better.
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November 4, 2010 1:54pm
big bruv

“our aim is not to overthrow the secular authorities and establish a Christian caliphate here on earth.”

Maybe not, but you still want to tell us what we can do and how we should live our lives.
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November 4, 2010 1:54pm
Chthoniid

@MikeNZ

Firstly, name one Christian who loves his/her God before man who has blown up a plane, building or him/herself?

Timothy “kids are just collateral damage” McVeigh? Any number of terrorists involved in bombings in N Ireland?
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November 4, 2010 1:58pm
MikeNZ

joana (249) Says:
November 4th, 2010 at 1:45 pm

Of more import, they are part of a process of Islamisation against us.

In the Dompost they reported that Indonesia is looking to NZ right now to get as many students as they can here,
This is 1 for an education but also for 2. for creeping Islamic immigration which they didn’t.

The non-Muslims Indonesians do not have the same status in law as Muslims and I bet those coming here with indonesian state help won’t be non Muslims.

Add to that, that there are many non Muslims who were not and still have not been given permission to rebuild their homes , schools, churches and businesses because they are Christian or other says to me that we should reject this avenue of Islamic Dawa or not at our peril.
For under Sharia as a non-Muslim you are a Dhimmi a person to be humiliated as you aren’t a Muslim. That only applies to Christians, Jews and Zoastroans of course.
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November 4, 2010 1:59pm
Kris K

Chth[o]niid 1:29 pm,

Of course, the first act of international terrorism in NZ was actually undertaken by the French. I propose we follow Kris’s exhortations and begin, first, by invading and occupying France (no more appeasement!).

And I just knew that Evo-boy wouldn’t be able to resist putting his 2c worth in.

I didn’t say “international terrorism” of course, but rather “the first hijacking of an aircraft in New Zealand was carried out by a Muslim”. Just shows how lacking in comprehension many of the ignoramuses here are.

The fact that the two French agents at the time were acting on instruction from the French government meant, I believe, we should have responded much more ‘appropraiately’ than we did at the time. Like trade sanctions with France, bringing the issue before the UN and forcing an outcome (waste of time I know), and life imprisonment here in NZ for the two agents concerned.

… but about the level of thought and analysis I have come to expect from Evo-boy – just another moronic mouth breather.

[DPF: Less insults please]
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November 4, 2010 1:59pm
MikeNZ

Thanks for being proxy for beerhunter (I’m still waiting for you to answer.)

Did they love their Christian God before man?
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November 4, 2010 2:00pm
MikeNZ

stephen (3,801) Says:
November 4th, 2010 at 1:19 pm

Is it really going down or is that spin?
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November 4, 2010 2:01pm
bearhunter

“Firstly, name one Christian who loves his/her God before man who has blown up a plane, building or him/herself?”

Norman Morrison, burned himself to death outside the Pentagon protesting at the Vietnam War.

Countless morons in Northern Ireland on both sides. (In fact, countless morons throughout Irish history, not just the 1969-1998 slaughter).

The National Liberation Front of Tripura.

There are surely more.
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November 4, 2010 2:04pm
MikeNZ

KevinH (82) Says:
November 4th, 2010 at 11:54 am

If you find a url i’d love to see it 🙂
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November 4, 2010 2:04pm
Chthoniid

@MikeNZ

If using Sharia banking aids Dawa or Sharia law anywhere in the world then clearly Sharia banking is part of the problem of Sharia law.

That’s why I don’t use cheques anymore. They’re just another Islamic financial invention to takeover and oppress us.
(just doing my bit to preserve Western Civilisation)
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November 4, 2010 2:06pm
Pete George

The Bible-carrying man said he hijacked the plane yesterday because the date, 9-9-09, was the satanic number 666 upside down.
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November 4, 2010 2:07pm
joana

Who left the bomb in the Trades hall in Wgtn? I understand the bomb was meant for Helen Kelley’s father but unfortunately it was the old caretaker who was blown up…Did anything ever come out about this?
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November 4, 2010 2:08pm
MikeNZ

Ask Clint, he seems to know everything apart from being a good photographer and an antijihadist
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November 4, 2010 2:10pm
Pete George

More unsolved, but unlikely to be Muslim:

At 9 a.m. on 5 February 1962 James Patrick Ward a well-known Dunedin barrister, received a parcel in his office. A few minutes later the building was shaken by an explosion. Ward was rushed to the Dominican Tertiary Hospital, where he died six hours later.

An incident similar to the Ward case occurred in 1937 when a bomb was thrown at R. A. Singer, an Auckland lawyer. The Singer case has never been solved.

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/1966/crimes-unsolved/20
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November 4, 2010 2:13pm
Chthoniid

@Kris K

I didn’t say “international terrorism” of course, but rather “the first hijacking of an aircraft in New Zealand was carried out by a Muslim”. Just shows how lacking in comprehension many of the ignoramuses here are.

Got it, some types of terrorism are okay if we speak more sternly. It’s not like anybody got killed. No wait, somebody did.

Some acts of terrorism, like if undertaken by a socially maladjusted black Muslim woman, isn’t ok. And is really just part of a giant Islamic plot. Because God told you so. And a website.
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November 4, 2010 2:13pm
Kris K

eszett 1:46 pm,

YOU saw the things that you want to see. Never mind what she actually said, YOUR version of the truth is that ALL Muslims are evil. Since she didn’t actually say that, then she is appeasing. Such logic!

No doubt idiots like Eszett accept everthing out of politicians mouths as the literal gospel. It’s morons like him that voted Obama into office. You should try pulling your head out of your arse occassionally, Eszett – the view’s a lot better, not to mention the aroma.

PS My version of the truth is the ONLY one that counts – I give no credibility to yours …
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November 4, 2010 2:13pm
Pete George

Kris and Mike are more bitchy than normal towards anyone who dares question their crap. What have you guys been doing to them over the past couple of weeks?

My version of the truth is the ONLY one that counts

Ah, this is General Debate, not Daily Pulpit. Isn’t it?
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November 4, 2010 2:17pm
joana

MikeNZ
Saudis have come to Canterbury Uni for the same purpose…I am told they are not good students; not up to degree standard but then they are not here to study are they..
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November 4, 2010 2:18pm
Kris K

Chth[o]niid 2:13 pm,

Got it, some types of terrorism are okay …

If you say so, mouth breather.
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November 4, 2010 2:18pm
Kris K

joana 2:18 pm,

Saudis have come to Canterbury Uni for the same purpose…I am told they are not good students; not up to degree standard but then they are not here to study are they..

You got it, Joana – not that the other morons here will get the point you’re making.

I wonder if any of them are enrolled in flight training schools, but haven’t bothered signing up for “How to land a plane 101”?
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November 4, 2010 2:24pm
Owen McShane

On the other hand, Canada shows the way:
“Redneck” Calgary Elects Liberal Muslim Academic Mayor: World Doesn’t End

Go to:
http://www.newgeography.com/content/001847-“redneck”-calgary-elects-liberal-muslim-academic-mayor-world-doesn’t-end
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November 4, 2010 2:28pm
James Stephenson

Saudis have come to Canterbury Uni for the same purpose…I am told they are not good students; not up to degree standard but then they are not here to study are they..

That’s one interpretation. However employing the “cock-up more likely than conspiracy” rule and with an eye on the law of unintended consequences, I’d say it more likely to be a result of universities selecting on ability to pay fees rather than academic excellence.
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November 4, 2010 2:35pm
MikeNZ

Joana
We had a vic student for a barbq (without their minders) and they were amazed that we knew so much about Wahabism and the family of Bin Saud.
all very nice, nothing about staying here as it is their first year.
but we’ll see.
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November 4, 2010 2:36pm
MikeNZ

james
from the uni side you may well be correct but from the Saudi side not so.

read faith power and territory by patrick sookhdeo isbn 978-0-9547835-8-7
for the UK history
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November 4, 2010 2:37pm
Chthoniid

@Kris K

I wonder if any of them are enrolled in flight training schools, but haven’t bothered signing up for “How to land a plane 101″?

Good point.
Someone better tell our intelligence services about 9/11. They’ve probably overlooked it. They’ll be completely unaware of this stratagem.
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November 4, 2010 2:39pm
Kris K

big bruv 1:54 pm,

“our aim is not to overthrow the secular authorities and establish a Christian caliphate here on earth.”

Maybe not, but you still want to tell us what we can do and how we should live our lives.

Of course morons like you, BB, will choose to ignore such advice and as a result will contribute to the ongoing demise of Western society. The fact that you see no link between your [lack of] morality/values and how that plays into the hands of the amoral elite who wish to bring us all into subjugation, just reveals how incomprehendingly moronic you really are.

[DPF: Try to disagree with people without calling them morons]
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November 4, 2010 2:39pm
Pete George

Your redbaiter persona seems to be leaking into your Kris KK.
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November 4, 2010 2:43pm
Ryan Sproull

again you twist what is said just a little bit don’t you?
you are like petey boy when you do that.

Kris was clearly talking about Muslims and aircraft passengers.
An issue I KNOW you are aware with, with a high profile US TV/Radio person being sacked saying the same thing onm FOX.

This is a repeated deceitful manner by you.

Yes, Mike. It was exceedingly obvious that I had taken the last line of Kris’s post and made it look like he was saying something else. It’s not deceit when it’s blatantly obvious. That’s what made it amusing. Take a breath.
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November 4, 2010 2:46pm
big bruv

Wow Kris!

You have morphed into Redbaiter mk2, hardly a ‘christian’ attitude at all.

Is that because you can no longer defend the indefensible (religion) or is it more to do with the real intolerant and ignorant Kris K showing through?
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November 4, 2010 2:46pm
joana

Just ignore them Kris..I do.
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November 4, 2010 2:49pm

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