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November 25, 2010 7:04am by David Farrar

General Debate 25 November 2010

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big bruv

A message to our media.

Get the hell out of the West Coast, you have been there long enough. Let the people of the coast get on with their grieving in private, your continued presence in the town is starting to look like you are revelling in their misery.
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November 25, 2010 7:15am
Pete George

Too fleeting:

Fleeting period to attempt rescue: expert

The first four hours after Friday’s Pike Rive explosion was the only time rescuers could have entered the mine, a safety expert said yesterday.

After that fleeting period the 2.8km tunnel network became a ticking bomb as it refilled with potentially explosive methane, said former mine general manager John Brady, who has reviewed 20 fatal mine incidents in Australia.

Mr Brady said investigations of mining incidents indicated that a brief window of opportunity arose after an underground gas explosion, when dangerous gases had burned away.

But he stressed that a second explosion often followed immediately. If there were not consecutive explosions, the first four hours was the only period to attempt a rescue or recovery, or repair the ventilation.

Once the methane began to build up again, and without proper air flow, further explosions were inevitable in the following days or weeks.

After the blast at 3.50pm, the alarm was not raised for roughly two hours – the time it took for Daniel Rockhouse and Russell Smith to walk 2km out of the carbon monoxide-filled tunnel and alert emergency services.

Mr Brady said if all risk management protocols were followed, rescue teams would never enter a mine after an explosion.

“Unless you were really equipped and ready to go in at that moment, then you can’t do it at all. A management team have no alternative but to say, ‘We can’t send anyone in’.”

Every mining expert the Herald spoke to believed that if rescuers had entered the mine on Friday afternoon, it would have been a recovery mission.

The atmosphere in the tunnel was a volatile mix of gases before the second explosion in the Pike River tunnel, preliminary tests showed.

The first tests taken through the borehole confirmed what officials had expected, but hoped not to find: a concentration of 95 per cent methane, high levels of carbon monoxide, and little oxygen.

Mine explosion and gas analysis expert David Cliff, of the University of Queensland, said four to five hours of samples were needed to understand the stability of the atmosphere.

Engineering and mining geologist David Bell, of the University of Canterbury, said predicting the gas concentrations was difficult. “You’re talking days to get a serious trend. It’s not going to be resolved in a few hours.

Expert opinion basically says a rescue attempt was not possible. It took two hours for the surviving men to come out. If there were rescue teams at the ready (there weren’t) it would have taken them two hours in, two hours out of the main tunnel without having done anything.
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November 25, 2010 7:18am
Inventory2

What big bruv said. I posted similar sentiments on Facebook last night, and a number of my FB friends followed suit:

Dear TVNZ, 3News, RadioLive, Newstalk ZB and print journalists. The story of the Pike River Mine tragedy has been told. How about you all go home now, and allow the people of the West Coast to grieve without your intrusion.

Anyone who uses FB is welcome to do likewise. Sure, the media has a job to do, but there are limits.
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November 25, 2010 7:20am
dad4justice

I wonder if Helen Clark still thinks West Coasters are “feral inbreds”?
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November 25, 2010 7:20am
petal

STARTING “to look like you are reveling in their misery”? I turned the TV off after 30 seconds on day 1 as I couldn’t stand the reporter trying suppress an ear to ear grin while soiling her undies. Gravitas? Whazzat? Been getting the news from the live conferences instead. Plus, people around me kept insisting on keeping everyone up to date.
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November 25, 2010 7:39am
DavidR

As a Coaster, thanks big bruv & Inv2. Fuck off, Mad Dad – you’re as bad as any of them, using people’s misery to score points.
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November 25, 2010 7:40am
petal

Oh my gawd dad4justice, HOW did you manage to link the death of 29 miners to Helen Clark? What’s wrong with you? Can’t you leave the politics out of a tragedy like that? Go pray and ask for forgiveness and don’t come back until you have it.
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November 25, 2010 7:41am
Simon

Ireland is gone, financially ruined it has collapsed. Spain, Italy, Portugal to follow. Then the big show the US & UK.

Australia is in trouble too. Just getting underway. Get your money out of any Aust owned bank which has a big share of the Oz property market. They will be gone just like those Irish banks. Matter of time.
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November 25, 2010 7:54am
mattyroo

The mine was always going to explode as soon as any rescue attempt was initiated, the people behind the rescue knew this. They will have been well aware that an explosion was imminent once they drilled the rescue shaft and found the methane levels to be at 95%.

Once an opening was made into the mine, and air was allowed to flow into the mine, the methane content would have started to lower, however as the methane content lowers it gets to a point where it is extremely likely to self-combust, usually at around 12% – known as the Higher Explosive Limit (HEL) in the industry. It then must fall below 4% – the Lower Explosive Limit (LEL), to be safe for any rescue to be even considered, however, no rescue would have taken place even until it got to <1% methane content.

Been a tough few days, as working in a similar environment with similar risks, this sort of thing really brings it home how fragile and vulnerable we all are.

RIP Boys – our thoughts are with you.
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November 25, 2010 8:04am
Murray

What BB said.

And special note to Mike McRoberts, we can’t hear you when you’ve got Phil goffs dick in your mouth anyway.

The labour party might have been born there but it aint labour country any more so stop campagining for them.
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November 25, 2010 8:07am
mawm

National MP Allan Peachey is warning the Government that the foreshore and seabed saga is polarising the party’s support, and many core voters feel betrayed and will never vote for National again.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10689933

Someone in the National party has begun to wake up to the ‘mood’ of the Tory voter.

What about the ETS rort that Nick-the-loon has imposed on us that is going to cost us an ‘unexpected’ $1bn?
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November 25, 2010 8:13am
petal

Just for consistency Murray, I’d like to see some demerits for suggesting the leader of the opposition gets blow jobs from Mike McRoberts. (chuckle)
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November 25, 2010 8:24am
Brian Smaller

Just for consistency Murray, I’d like to see some demerits for suggesting the leader of the opposition gets blow jobs from Mike McRoberts. (chuckle)

Mike “Let me through,I am a ghoul” McRoberts you mean?
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November 25, 2010 8:32am
Murray

I’d like to not see McRoberts using the West coast community as a device to do a puff piece for Goof and Labour when it was Dear Leader who was calling them feral inbreds.

Everybodies got things they’d like to see happen. doesn’t mean it will. And it wasn’t a sugestion it was an observation, take a look at yesterdays “interview”. If that wasn’t a verbal blow job then Phil Goff is the Prime Minister and the greens talk sense.
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November 25, 2010 8:32am
Nookin

Those who have suffered most have shown incredible dignity when the temptation to lash out at the sheer injustice and randomness of fate must be overwhelming. Let’s not disrespect them by descending to a lower level. Let’s be with them. They need us.
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November 25, 2010 8:34am
petal

Having observed Helen Clark for some time, I am convinced ‘feral inbreds’ is a term of endearment, coming from her. Especially as the Coasters sit smack bang on top of all her tramping spots 🙂
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November 25, 2010 8:42am
Inventory2

What Nookin said …
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November 25, 2010 8:42am
ciaron

If it is not inappropriate to ask; the report last night seemed to say they knew the men had not survived before the second explosion occurred, is this correct?

[DPF: Now know with 100% certainty, but the readings they got on Saturday made most of those involved realise survival was highly unlikely]
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November 25, 2010 8:43am
Murray

Actually what about leaving them the hell alone.

No one gave a crap about them when they werent news and they’ve had more than their share of abuse for the industry they work in. They don’t need or want you nookin or the gang of self involved journos who are after a sound bite.
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November 25, 2010 8:46am
kowtow

I would put McRoberts in the “activist”camp. His coverage of South Lebanon was akin to being a jihadi, Hizbollah spokesman.

The Irish govt finances have collapsed and the next target is clearly Portugal. After that it’s Spain. Not so sure about Italy though.

One measure the Micks are introducing is increasing VAT (GST) to 23%! Portugal thinking of doing the same.

Mawm: Good to see the Nat core doing something about the new land giveaway ,about time people let their “representatves” know how they feel. You won’t read much about it on this blog though! But box on regardless, that’s deomocracy.
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November 25, 2010 9:15am
Pete George

There has been quite a few criticisms of the police handling of the mine disaster. It seems to be more along the lines of people not liking the police being involved as much as they were – but I don’t recall seeing any criticisms of specific things done badly by the police (apart from supposedly blocking rescue efforts which have been shown to be nonsense claims).

What did the police do wrong, versus what they may have done right?
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November 25, 2010 9:39am
mawm

kowtow – You won’t read much about it on this blog though!

Yep, it certainly goes quiet when the difficult questions need to be asked.

It’s good to see that John Whitehead, the Treasury Secretary, is making some sensible commentary. Today the Herald reports on his criticism of Student loans, Superannuation, RMA and the Hazardous Substances Act; our pitiful growth of GDP, the woeful state of our education (only half of the tertiary students we support complete their degree), Teacher performance and the growing proportion of working age people on the Benefit.

It is really an indictment of our politicians and should be a wake up for National.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10689921
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November 25, 2010 9:52am
Dirty Rat

D4J @ 7:20

Helen Clark thinks West Coasters are feral inbeds ?

As everyone knows, the West Coast was the home of the Unions and The Labour Party, so I really dont think even she would say that.

But you have, you cunt

[DPF: 30 demerits]
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November 25, 2010 10:46am
MikeNZ

kowtow (713) Says:
November 25th, 2010 at 9:15 am

To be fair DPF has mentioned it, though he hasn’t given it the stuff of the Labours EFA which wasn’t as bad as this wholesale lying and theft.
I am surprised as the constitutional aspect of what they are doing with the 3rd category of ownership and being able to negotiate in the AG’s office is very worrying.
It makes him a hypocrite actually as that aspect is seriously off.
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November 25, 2010 10:53am
Pete George

It is known she referred to a few tree sabotagers there as feral but I think the “in-bred” came from implication rather than being stated literally.

Ironically many Coasters would probably have sided with her rather than the protesters, but the media portrayed it more as a general dig at the Coast.
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November 25, 2010 10:54am
Jack5

Personal question for Pete George:

Hope you don’t mind me asking this Pete G, but are you the Dunedin bloke who won a prize in the unpublished poetry section of the Robert Burns 250th anniversary celebrations in Dunedin early last year?
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November 25, 2010 11:00am
RightNow

“Feral” – definitely, “in-bred” – disputable

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2009/03/feral_inbreds.html

The ‘feral’ part is on record, the ‘in-bred’ part is not and is disputable, although chthoniid states in the thread that he remembers Clark making the comments.

“But earlier in the day Helen Clark wouldn’t apologise for describing some coasters as feral and in-bred.”
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/tvnz_smartphone_story_skin/21405
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November 25, 2010 11:02am
RKBee

The National Govt Leadership was caring and honrable .. the West Coasters will not forget this ..
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November 25, 2010 11:11am
kowtow

mawm;

If ever the politicians needed an excuse to do something drastic about public spending,this crisis surely is it!

I caught a few minutes of Bacck Benchers last night and Stephen Franks was being honest about public spending while the Labour and Watermelon blokes were all”spend ,spend spend”.

The 2 lefties kept up the mantra of “investment in education” while Franks challenged that just because money is spent doesn’t mean it’s “invested”. An investment should produce a return not flushed down the toilet.

Interestingly in Portugal the govt has swinging cuts to restore it’s books and the union response is a general strike demanding more govt spending!

MikeNZ.
Also worrying is the potential for the perception of a “cosy relationship” between the AGs’ office and the various tribes as they have worked together outside of this sphere on other claims in the Treaty gravy train process.

It’s open govt we should have and in a democracy the people should be highest authority via referendum on such important issues. . Essentially the political elites in this country don’t like real democracy. They push Kate Shepherd in primary school but are quite content to keep real power in a few vested places. Sad.
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November 25, 2010 11:23am
Offshore_Kiwi

MAWM (8.13am) at least there’s *one* National MP who’s talking to his constituents!

DPF a little consistency, if you please. Yesterday, I called most of the National leadership a pack of cunts, and within a nano-second I had 30 demerits. Dirty Rat has used the same term to describe one of your loyal commenters at 10.46am today, and so far … nothing. Or does it only count when it’s used in reference to your mob?

[DPF: Sigh, go read the policies. I do not see every comment. I saw yours when it was made. I did not see DR’s until someone emailed me at 1240 pm pointing it out.]
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November 25, 2010 11:23am
Offshore_Kiwi

And say what you like about ACT, on the issue of the Foreshore & Seabed John Boscawen is a hero.
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November 25, 2010 11:26am
big bruv

Offshore_Kiwi

The difference is that Rat was right, you, on the other hand deserve everything you get.
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November 25, 2010 11:26am
Sofia

Is the Governor General in New Zealand at present? Just wondering.
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November 25, 2010 11:27am
Offshore_Kiwi

Bruv, you started this thread with a comment I wholeheartedly agree with. You’ve now reverted to type. If it’s OK for Dirty Rat to speak the truth, it’s OK for me … you are a cunt.

[DPF: 30 demerits]
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November 25, 2010 11:27am
MikeNZ

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/islamic-nations-religious-defamation-dri

An Islamic-led campaign against “religious defamation” suffered a fresh setback Tuesday when a U.N. General Assembly committee passed an annual draft resolution on the subject by the smallest margin ever. Just 12 votes separated countries voting for and against the measure.

They still voted for it though!
This maybe better news historically, but until Sharia is reviled throughout the world as wicked and contemptuous for treating humans as 2nd and 3rd class citizens in their own countries it won’t be Justice for all the Dhimmis in the world.

http://stopshariahnow.org/
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November 25, 2010 11:31am
JiveKitty

This is what state-funded Muslim schools in Britain are teaching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHwF6pXqubU#t=8m59s
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November 25, 2010 11:32am
Pete George

Offshore – you sometimes have to give DPF time (he isn’t hovering all the time and less on GD) and if you want to you can give him help – explained here: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/demerits

Jack – yes, but I don’t work at Uni.
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November 25, 2010 11:34am
JiveKitty

Well, that was fortuitous timing of a post.
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November 25, 2010 11:38am
Pete George

I’ve generally thought John Boscawen was a straight talker.

Act campaign against foreshore bill costing National votes, MP warns

“The Act Party is running a campaign based on misinformation and half-truths in this electorate, which is gaining some traction,” the report says.

Mr Boscawen denied that he was scaremongering or that his letter was based on misinformation. His letter claims it “seems only a matter of time” before nationalised resources – oil, gold, silver, uranium – are denationalised, which could see some of the benefits of those resources in the foreshore and seabed go into private iwi hands rather than to Government coffers.

He based this on a perceived push by Maori groups to change the policy around nationalised resources. The Government has not shown any indication of doing that.

If this is accurate it’s pretty damn disappointing. I had thought John was better than this.
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November 25, 2010 11:47am
Bevan

Australia is in trouble too. Just getting underway.

Really? If Aus is considered to be “in trouble”, then NZ must be considered to be either “bankrupt” or “completely fucked”.
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November 25, 2010 11:47am
James Stephenson

Australia is in trouble too. Just getting underway

I thought that was premature – cricket doesn’t start for another hour or so.
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November 25, 2010 11:57am
nickb

I thought that was premature – cricket doesn’t start for another hour or so.

Shit! Nearly forgot.

Does anyone have a link to a live stream? For those of us that don’t have sky
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November 25, 2010 12:05pm
James Stephenson

Nickb – I’m making do with the ball-by-ball on Cricinfo
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November 25, 2010 12:16pm
kowtow

MikeNZ.
See this news from Egypt. All across the middle east Christians are in severe trouble at the hands of their neighbours ,the adherents of the religion of peace.
The irony is that the Copts are the original Egyptians,they are the”indigenous” people there,Yet the world calls Egypt a Muslim country.Christian Egypt was lost due to migration of Muslim Arabs to Egypt in the middle ages. Now the original people are second class citizens in their own country.
The Muslim Brotherhood is also very powerful there>Remember they killed Sadat for making peace with the Israelis.
History tells us that mass migrations are dangerous events.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/11/20101124102023223936.html
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November 25, 2010 12:18pm
big bruv

nickb

Would you be insanely envious if I told you that I have taken the rest of the day off to watch the test live on Sky? 🙂
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November 25, 2010 12:23pm
mattyroo

Guys, For the cricket live, here’s a couple of sites I use;

http://www.webcric.com
http://www.crictime.com

Both have loads of pop-ups and crash / freeze every now and then, but if you can put up with the occasional reload of the webpage it’s not too bad. The pop-ups lurk around in the background. Just make sure you’ve got some good antivirus stuff installed, I’ve never had a problem, but I am wary of these sites – I also have good antivirus installed too, which may be why I have never had a problem.
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November 25, 2010 12:23pm
Herman Poole

Live Sports Streams:

http://www.myp2p.eu/competition.php?competitionid=&part=sports&discipline=cricket
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November 25, 2010 12:24pm
mattyroo

I just posted a couple of links to cricket sites, but it seems that it may have got hung-up in moderation, due to the links, I’ll post them here in a different format…..

webcric dot com
crictime dot com

The sites do freeze / crash every now and then and have loads of pop-ups, but if you can put up with the occasional page reload, then they are good and free!

Make sure you have good antivirus installed, I have never had a problem, but am always wary of these sites.
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November 25, 2010 12:27pm
MikeNZ

Yeah been reading that for a decade Kowtow.
This info is available for everyone on the web and has been for at least a decade in that I’ve been reading it.

This is the reality of Islam.
Islam does not recognise Humanity per se, but Muslims and Kaffirs (unbelievers).
That is how you can be treated as a 2nd or 3rd class citizen in your own country.
Remember Islam considers itself global not recognising country boundaries.
Sharia is the outworking of Islam’s heart values through Muslims.
Muslims males are the top of the tree all others are below them starting with Muslim women.
more than 60% of the Koran, sura and hadiths are about Kaffirs and how we should be treated by Muslims.
Try telling the people in liberal western democracies that.

They won’t believe you!
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November 25, 2010 12:29pm
MikeNZ

sorry that isn’t quite correct.
many of them don’t want to look at the issue because that means they are faced with a choice to examine it properly and then make a decision.
they are too lazy or afraid to do so.
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November 25, 2010 12:30pm
Jack5

Pete George:

Re your 11.34. Pete, I offer you sincere, but belated congratulations on the prize for your poetry.

You must be a busy old ~~bas~~ bard. Do you post between composing stanzas, or write stanzas between typing posts? Any way, well done.

I’m not sure what your reference to not working at the uni. relates to, however.

Are you retired from the august Otago University then? Did you hang up your gown when they moved the School of Mines to Auckland, where they have other engineering faculties (Canterbury fuck-wittedly declined to add the world-known Otago School of Mines to its engineering school)?

Could it be that you are the long-retired professor of mines. If so, I respectfully bow to your views on Pike River.
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November 25, 2010 12:33pm
Viking2

Pete, the govt. and Findlayson have had their heads down and refusing to acknowledge the serious concerns about this bill and thewre appear to be many. Peachy being a highly trained lawyer that he is is twisting the facts to cover their arse.
Go over to thecoastal coalition website or to NZCPD where the subject is getting plenty of interest.
There’s no doubt that Findlayson and the Maori are in the same camp and to give the AG power to give away rights that belong currently with the State is both unconstitutional and morrally bankrupt.
The smoke screen that its not whatthe govt. will do is just that for their intended law will allow either them or the next lot to do just that. I.e. the law willallow it to be and like rust Maori Autocrasy never sleeps. 10 Years from now and more Maori in Parliament<which is their goal, then they will justmake the changes and the rest of us will be left wondering where the beaches went.
Is that what we want?

And a reminder that currently there are more Maori MP’s than any other race or ethnic group already in Paliament.
Like the Jews they will fight one another tooth and nail until there is a common enemy then they all fight the enemy.

But then this is the National Party we are talking about.
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November 25, 2010 12:35pm
MikeNZ

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000850391136&success=1#!/pages/Take-the-Pledge-Read-the-Quran/148992658454697

Take it.
Read it for yourself.
try just the Koran.

Remembering it is divided into two halves the first half is before Mohammad was finally rejected by the Jews and Christians and is easier on them.The second half is after the rejection and it is very definitely harsh and downright evil.
In Muslims jurisprudence and thought the 2nd half cancels out the 1st half, But they will quote you all the fluffy bits and dismiss the reality of Sharia in day to day living for Dhimmis.
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November 25, 2010 12:37pm
dad4justice

“As everyone knows, the West Coast was the home of the Unions and The Labour Party, so I really dont think even she would say that.”

I was living on the Coast when she said it. Stop calling me a c##t you twisted liar. I was stating a fact.
My parents were both West Coasters. Go get caught in a large trap you smelly dirty fly ridden rat.
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November 25, 2010 12:39pm
MikeNZ

Sorry Viking is pete defending Key over the F&S?
I don’t read him as he is in my RIP.

Thanks for stating o give the AG power to give away rights that belong currently with the State is both unconstitutional and morrally bankrupt.
Notice they have renamed the bill so that it isn’t F&S.
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November 25, 2010 12:40pm
Simon

The coming Aussie property crash will wipe out two of the big four banks. Houses go for 7.5 annual earnings in Oz. Unsustainable. Interest rates are going up. There are no more fools to on sell to. Its game over. It is America all again. Ireland, Spain, UK anywhere that’s had a debt fueled asset bubble.

Close NZ’s borders to Australia.
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November 25, 2010 12:46pm
Pete George

I’m not defending National on the F&S, and I’m aware there’s very active opposition to what is happening. I’m expressing disappointment that Boscawen seems to be using vague emotional statements to try and talk up his case. I thought he was more trustworthy, using tactics like that gives me doubts.

I also have concerns over where the F&S is heading (not as paranoid as some), but I don’t see a need to mention all my concerns in every post.
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November 25, 2010 12:48pm
JiveKitty

Sports streaming sites:

crictime dot com
firstrow dot net

If you full screen the video, you don’t get the adverts popping up on the video for some reason.

Keep the antivirus software up to date, etc. Usual caveats apply.
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November 25, 2010 1:03pm
James Stephenson

Strauss gone, 3rd ball. Fuck, I mean duck.
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November 25, 2010 1:06pm
kowtow

Simon.

As Corporal Jones would say “don’t panic”.

And in case you haven’t noticed it’s too late to close the borders to Oz. Who’d want to anyway?

The whole thing is a confidence game anyway and it’s when people panic that it falls over.

Banks failing? Even in Ireland they didn’t fail in the classic sense,the taxpayer bought them and will now pay for them again.Same in Iceland and Britain.And the US.Private profits, social losses or whatever the expression is.

It’s happened before and will happen again.

Now go and have a lie down.
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November 25, 2010 1:14pm
nickb

Legend jivekitty!

Thanks heaps
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November 25, 2010 1:17pm
Pete George

No Jack, I just mentioned Uni because there are a couple of others involved there (Dn and Chch) with the same name – they may come up if you search by name which I thought you might have done.

I’m a swivel chair expert on mines 🙂

Actually this Pike River thing has been a major eye opener, I knew vaguely that coal mines could have gas problems with canaries but I had no idea how close to the wind they have to sail.

The Herald linked to: http://blogs.plos.org/speakeasyscience/2010/11/24/afterdamp-in-new-zealand/
– explains a bit more.
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November 25, 2010 1:21pm
mawm

PG – From what I’ve read, Boscawen seems to be straight down the line – it’s the creep of an AG that is ducking and diving and trying to mislead us (and the repeater from the Herald had to get that phrase about half-truths into his piece twice just in case one had not noticed it the first time).
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November 25, 2010 1:27pm
Jack5

Enough of this Western Front 1914 Christmas truce stuff, Pete, back to the trenches, and open fire.

Britain is having similar problems with its left-inspired Human Rights Act as NZ is with its PC (and perhaps in some cases even Marxist) human rights bureaucracy apparatchiki.

The latest British incident is a shocker. A killer prevented by the UK Humans Rights Act from being deported offends again. Apparently PM Cameronplans to abolish the Act. Let’s hope a future centre-right coalition will do the same for NZ.

The British incident:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8158271/Philip-Lawrences-killer-Learco-Chindamo-arrested-over-alleged-robbery.html
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November 25, 2010 1:29pm
nickb

I hope the Poms give Ponting’s boys a hammering.

Time for players like Bell, Anderson, Cook etc to step up
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November 25, 2010 1:33pm
Pete George

That is a shocker Jack, I’m just not convinced opening fire is the best solution. Sure, it would stop a few pricks, but somehow I think society has to be better than the lowlife.
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November 25, 2010 1:39pm
Offshore_Kiwi

mawm (1.27) I said yesterday that as well as loading up a big ol’d 44 magnum, taking careful aim and shooting themselves in both feet, ACT has been the subject of a concerted media campaign. Dog-whistle statements like “half-truths” (twice, no less), and prefixing the party name with “far right” whenever they are mentioned, are just a part of it. Sadly, I think the brand may be irreparably damaged, notwithstanding that they are the only viable option in New Zealand for anyone who doesn’t want to vote for the various shades of communism.
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November 25, 2010 2:06pm
Bazar

Thought i’d throw this out there:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html?hp

Puzzle to fix the US defict.
Shiny web interface. See if you can cut a 1.4 trillion deficit by 2030.

At least NZ isn’t as screwed as the US is, then again we don’t have their GDP either… The Bigger they are…
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November 25, 2010 2:27pm
cha

They’re fucked Bazar.

Michael Hudson.

This is the key dynamic of today’s finance capitalism. It loads down economies with debt – and when debt service exceeds the surplus out of which to pay it, the central bank tries to “inflate its way out of debt” by creating enough new credit (“money”) to make real estate, stocks and bonds worth more – enough for debtors to borrow the interest due. This is the deus ex machina, the external influx of credit enabling financialized economies to operate as Ponzi schemes. The dynamic is encouraged by taxing speculative (“capital”) gains at a lower rate than wages and profits. So why should investors finance tangible capital investment when they can ride the wave of asset-price inflation? The Bubble Economy turns into speculative “wealth creation.”

Can it work? How long will gullible investors bet on a pyramid scheme growing at an impossibly exponential rate, enjoying fictitious “wealth creation” as bankers load the economy down with debt? How long will people think that the economy is really growing when banks lend to an economy overseen by regulatory agencies staffed by ideological deregulators?
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November 25, 2010 2:30pm
kowtow

Jack5

Cameron won’t do it. Didn’t he promise a referendum on Europe as well? No sign of that. In fact his govt favours Turkish membership.

“Right wing” govts really are only the less worse option these days.

Our political elites are truely fiddling while Rome burns.

It puts me in mind of some lines that Churchill quotes in The Gathering Storm;

Who is in charge of the clattering train?
The axles creak and the couplings strain;
And the pace is hot,and the points are near,
And Sleep has deadened the driver’s ear,
And the signals flash through the night in vain,
For Death is in charge of the clattering train.

The west needs another Churchill.
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November 25, 2010 2:32pm
Lance

@kowtow

Does anyone have vision anymore?
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November 25, 2010 2:49pm
Pete George

“The west needs another Churchill.”

Don’t Western finances look a bit like the Gallipoli campaign already?
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November 25, 2010 2:50pm
adze

Well, Donald Trump is stepping up to the plate 😛
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November 25, 2010 2:53pm
Jack5

What do you think of this? An Ashburton auditor allows blocking of warning signs that may have saved taxpayers more than a billion dollars and gets fined only $38,000!!!!

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10690038

AND kowtow (2.32) I agree with you.The West does need another Churchill, or a Cromwell even. Let’s hope we don’t get a crop of new Bismarcks or Napoleons.

Coming out of the world wide property bubble fed by bankers, other financiers and well, just plain crooks, is going to be a tough grind for the billions of honest ordinary folk.

A good place to start, IMHO, would be high-flyer salaries. Japan in its phenomenal growth decades was known for the narrow pay margin between lowest-paid workers and board chairmen. Consultants, chief execs themselves, and high paid boards, have levered up top salaries spectacularly as the bubble inflated.

There are still good people at the top of many companies, but their rewards tend to be justifiably high, rather than spectacular.

Talent is widespread, and in NZ it has been hypocritical for boards to cite international comparisons for executive salaries while correctly denying international comparisons for low rank pay.

Sort out high-flier extravaganzas and workers will find it less bitter (if not less hard) in tightening their belts.
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November 25, 2010 2:57pm
Offshore_Kiwi

We need another Churchill, but we’re stuck with a pack of Chamberlains.
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November 25, 2010 3:01pm
Chuck Bird

For those who may like to change the topic for from the Pike River tragedy until after the recovery you may like to consider the following. For those in Auckland who have any concern about the foreshore bill and the consequent raising of unrealistic expectations you may like to attend a meeting on Monday at 5:30 at the Mecca, Newmarket.

For more details http://www.act.org.nz/

Act campaign against foreshore bill costing National votes, MP warns

By Derek Cheng
5:30 AM Thursday Nov 25, 2010

National MP Allan Peachey is warning the Government that the foreshore and seabed saga is polarising the party’s support, and many core voters feel betrayed and will never vote for National again.

For rest of article

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10689933
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November 25, 2010 3:07pm
Pete George

Are the financiers part of the same plot or a different one to the communists?
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November 25, 2010 3:11pm
Jack5

Neither Pete.

They are in Peter George’s lost plot.
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November 25, 2010 3:12pm
Jack5

Gay theologian blows whistle on Roman Catholic Church.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,730520,00.html
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November 25, 2010 3:13pm
Jack5

Pete George at 3.11 dinged me over my comments about the world property bubble but it may have been my other comments in that 2.57 post that really caught his attention. It was about the South Canterbury Finance auditor’s light (IMHO) fine.

Ho Ho Pete. You’re not a veteran of the Otago School of Mines. So perhaps you are a retired accountant, stung by criticism of an auditing buddy.

Auditors have a helluva big job and are paid by the firm they audit, but they have let through some vast rorts. Such as Fortex’s phantom supply of carcases.

Well Pete, are you, or were you a:

Number cruncher,
Bean counter,
Bean keeper,
Ledger lover,
Accountaholic, or
Journal juggler,

IF SO, were you one of these auditing types:

A ticker,
A penny policeman, or a
Double-entry detective

Sourced from http://www.the-alternative-accountant.com/funny-nicknames.html
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November 25, 2010 3:28pm
Pete George

No plot for me, I’m getting scattered.

Was that a priestly wolf whistle? It’s quite damning if at all accurate – and a lot of what he says adds up eg they like lace and dressing up.

The fiercest homophobia in the Catholic Church comes from homophile clerics who desperately suppress their own sexuality.

I doubt all fierce homophobes are priests but it does seem to be very prevalent. Not only in the Catholic church.
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November 25, 2010 3:29pm
Jimbob

I see some of you are commenting on the money problems around the World, here is what I have read on the matter and have posted this before. The financial problems in the US, Europe, UK and to a lesser extent in other countries around the World have been telegraphed for some time. The debt bubble has to be corrected and it is unavoidable. The knowledgable analysts are predicting deflation similar to the 1930’s, so any company or person with to much debt is in trouble. Most sharemarkets are going to get hit, gold will drop and the US dollar will be the safe haven. Another problem is that some banks are going to go under, mostly in the US, Europe and the UK. In Australia and NZ we may be ok, if anybody has doubts the safest place is short term Government debt. This first arose in 2000 and greenspan flooded the World with cheap US dollars, it worked. Now Bernanke is trying the same scam, it is not working. Over the next couple of years Bernanke will try all sorts of tricks, but he will end up with egg on his face. Remember that the US was first into this mess, so they should be the first out, in about 5-6 years time.
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November 25, 2010 3:39pm
kowtow

Jack5;

There wasn’t a shred of “evidence ” in that article. Lots of assertions against a conservative world view.A traditional world view that all Christian denominations held concerning homosexuality until recently. Now we witness modern humanism/liberalism/progresivism influencing modern theology,which like all things modern,must be “inclusive” and “non judgmental”.

By the way Speigel is particulaly anti Benedict,I think they feel that any good German must follow their editorial line and if they don’t they’re not truely worthy Germans, shades of the past!

PeteG your “lace and dressing up”is a cheap shot,manyhigh
church crstians are similar. Buddists and Shinto dress up too. So do shamans,feel free to have a go at the Dalai Lamma while you’re at it.

To show this is nothing new here’s a ditty from the ’40s

The devil to prove all religion a farce,
Invented a trick most sinister.
He baited his hook with a cowboy’s ass
And landed a Protestant minister.
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November 25, 2010 3:53pm
Ryan Sproull

As someone from a society that promotes the wearing of neckties, I feel unqualified to point my finger at the silly things people wear.
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November 25, 2010 4:06pm
RightNow

Jack5 – re the fine the auditor received, do you know what is the range of penalties NZICA are able to impose on the auditor?
It could well be that $38k was at the top end of the scale.
Personally I’d like to see the auditor tried in a NZ court rather than by a professional body (or as well as), but I doubt that is practicable.
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November 25, 2010 4:26pm
Jack5

Ryan Sproull posted at 4.06 re the gay theologian’s comment about Catholic clergy dress in the Spiegel article:

…As someone from a society that promotes the wearing of neckties…

A society, Ryan? I used to think the same,being a non-tie wearer and generally anti-tie, but my attention was drawn by a southern friend to the fact that neck ties have been around for more than 2000 years and across different societies. The 8000 terra cotta warriors of Xian, from 2000 years ago, wore a type of cravat, itself a form of tie.

Re Rightnow at 4.26: Good point. Auditing’s a problem. To be really extensive it has to cost a bit more than the client companies like to pay. Could there be another way of appointing them? Size of auditor and firm audited needs to be relative too. As SCF got bigger it perhaps should have been required to go to a national or international accounting firm to be audited. This type of auditor might be less likely to be bullied or otherwise over-influenced by the company being audited.
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November 25, 2010 5:21pm
Dirty Rat

Nice to see Farrar politicizing this tragedy by agreeing with D4J and giving me demerits

Fucking Scumbag

[DPF: 30 more demerits]
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November 25, 2010 5:43pm
Fisiani

Over on the Sewer (Standard) they are comparing John Key to shark shit and berating his address to the Nation as being appalling.

Fisiani
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
25 November 2010 at 4:27 pm

I just dont know what broadcast you partisan hacks are seeing.You seemingly want an actor to role play ‘genuine’ grief. You want a professional politician playing the cameras to squeeze every last vote from the beguiled tearful viewers. You want a Hulun Klark. You saw a caring human being. Trouble is , you have to be one to see it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz7R7hweghs
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November 25, 2010 5:48pm
Dirty Rat

[DPF: Sigh, go read the policies. I do not see every comment. I saw yours when it was made. I did not see DR’s until someone emailed me at 1240 pm pointing it out.]

ha ha ha ha ha ha!!
That is hilarious

Mummy Mummy Mummy !!!
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November 25, 2010 5:48pm
big bruv

For all you Aussie haters out there I thought you might like to know that before the start of the Aussie v England test they had a minutes silence for the Pike River men.

Remember that next time you are about to explode into another anti Aussie rant.
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November 25, 2010 5:50pm
Dirty Rat

RightNow at 4.26

Auditors fines can go into the $100’s of thousands from the Institute. Others they send to Hong Kong

Go here
http://www.nzica.com/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Disciplinary_Tribunal&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=13778
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November 25, 2010 5:58pm
jackp

Pete George-“I’m not defending National on the F&S, and I’m aware there’s very active opposition to what is happening. I’m expressing disappointment that Boscawen seems to be using vague emotional statements to try and talk up his case. I thought he was more trustworthy, using tactics like that gives me doubts.”

that “report”, Pete was written by Boscawon’s adversary, a National MP. Why don’t you just contact Boscawon on your own, he’ll answer your questions. But to believe Peachy about Boscawon saying half truths and to believe it by reading it in the Herald?? Thought you were smarter than that. Just look at the people behind the foreshore and seabed bill and you will be shocked. There is no representation for 98 percent of the population.
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November 25, 2010 6:09pm
jackp

And….. david ferrar is very quiet about the foreshore and seabed bill like the news media, parliament. I can’t seem to get a reaction from him when I mention this. Helen Cark isn’t a cunt, she is a dyke. maybe that might help

[DPF: Yep 30 demerits. I support the Govt’s legislation and have said so]
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November 25, 2010 6:11pm
Bevan

Nice to see Farrar politicizing this tragedy by agreeing with D4J and giving me demerits

I think you will find that you got the demerits for using the word c#nt, not for the political insinuations made.
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November 25, 2010 6:14pm
Dirty Rat

think you will find that you got the demerits for using the word c#nt, not for the political insinuations made.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck… blah blah

c#nt is no different than cunt

Lets see some consistency

[DPF: 30 more demerits – well done – now at 90]
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November 25, 2010 6:19pm
Bevan

Actually, there is a difference – one has a u the other a #.
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November 25, 2010 6:47pm
nickb

shit siddle gets a hattrick
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November 25, 2010 6:51pm
nickb

WTF is ricky ponting doing?

8 men back on the boundary to a bowler who has 6/44??

Ponting is by far Australia’s worst captain of the modern era
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November 25, 2010 7:28pm
Bob

I wonder if in the future coal mining will be automated so the only people down there will be a few doing maintenance. Even then jobs will be spaced so as few as possible will be in the mine at any one time.
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November 25, 2010 7:46pm
Johnboy

Perhaps to avoid demerits one should call a c**t by the medical term a vulva or a p***k by the medical term a penis.

As one who is already seemingly on 60 points into his second banning (without even knowing why) I couldn’t possibly make any other comment on this matter (or even fill in the missing stars on my two earlier words) without fear of reprisal by the rampant Penguin.

I leave the solution of this insolvable puzzle to those with less to lose. 🙂

Just remember that a subtle change of name (from Penis Van Lesbian) ——– launched the stellar career of that superstar. ——–Dick Van Dyke. 🙂
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November 25, 2010 8:17pm

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