General Debate 24 November 2010

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Fletch

1st! Wow, that doesn’t happen very often…
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November 24, 2010 7:57am
Murray

Anyone else getting pissed off with the media not havinga story so trying to make one by trying to create a contreversy over mine safety?
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November 24, 2010 8:07am
Yvette

Interesting, how far behind Radio NZ and stuff.co was TVNZ, with three people ‘live’, in knowing that the robot had been restarted, and Tony Kokshoorn busy talking on ONE had not been told either.
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November 24, 2010 8:19am
hj

A chap comes and borrows a couple of items from an elderly couple (replacement $1000). When asked for them back he replies “yeah, yeah, I’ll bring them tomorrow”, but never shows up. Chap has criminal record and dodgey associates and is pig hunter. Wife yells loudly at chap as he won’t come out of his house. Couple refuse to be intimidated. Police say couple are entitled to file an insurance claim (and that) they are “itching to get him” (for something) .
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November 24, 2010 8:21am
fredinthegrass

Yes, Murray.
But isn’t that standard industry practice – waning story, what can we dig up to keep it going.
IMHO our media is so immature in so many ways it is sad.
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November 24, 2010 8:22am
Murray

“Standard industry practice” doesn’t make it less repugnant fred.
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November 24, 2010 8:26am
kaya

I believe there will be a great turnout for this call for a rally against the financial mess in Ireland and against the whole corrupt system. I had asked yesterday where was the Irish spirit. I think we will see it on the weekend. I certainly hope so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ing8xH3Qj-k
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November 24, 2010 8:27am
Brian Smaller

Muray – it has gone beyond reporting and turned into prurient vouyeurism. I can just imagine Mike McRoberts and Co when something happens at the entrance to the mine. “Make way, I am a ghoul.”
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November 24, 2010 8:27am
Adolf Fiinkensein

Now you know why I have not watched television news for at least five years. To call it crap insults every genuine turd in the land.
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November 24, 2010 8:36am
hj

Has anyone noticed the attempts to revive the old left.
Bryce Edwards is asking which side is dominant in the Green Party , are inherently left-wing people selling out (becoming more centrist and pragmatist)? Chris Trotter is trumpeting the virtue of Matt McCarten. The one thing they lack (however) is a proletariat. Welfarism and progressive politics have created a divide between those who work and those who slop around malls during the day. The blue collar worker of today is the political “redneck”.
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November 24, 2010 8:37am
BLiP

Anyone seen Pansy?
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November 24, 2010 8:39am
hj

re
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ing8xH3Qj-k

the problem with issues is complexity and subtlety and this is where our system is lacking,. Yet these are the situations that the Bradfords, McCarten’s etc thrive on; they are the ones who (think they) see things clearly; the extremists , the political outliers.
I wanna riot!
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November 24, 2010 8:48am
Offshore_Kiwi

Kaya, I certainly hope the rally in Ireland accomplishes *something* (and that its aims aren’t the same as those in Greece). I wonder when we’ll see rallies here in New Zealand against the unsustainable borrowing, the threatened credit downgrade, the oversupply of bludgers and leftards who have placed New Zealand in its current parlous financial position?
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November 24, 2010 8:53am
kaya

hj – I think you might see one on Saturday!
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November 24, 2010 8:54am
Murray

“Anyone seen Pansy?” Wong or Carter?
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November 24, 2010 8:59am
Inventory2

Good to see that the government has held its nerve and passed the 90-day law

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/11/90-day-law-passes.html
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November 24, 2010 9:02am
hj

“I wonder when we’ll see rallies here in New Zealand against the unsustainable borrowing, the threatened credit downgrade, the oversupply of bludgers and leftards who have placed New Zealand in its current parlous financial position?”

This demonsrates how complex issues are. We may have our opinions but try and argue it coherently (especially at a rally). Better to blame the Jews.
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November 24, 2010 9:10am
hj

re 90 day
I watched a neighbor use his firms vehicle (a light truck) to deliver something to the solo mum who lives there (as does he). I’ve never seen a delivery truck do a wheel spin before.
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November 24, 2010 9:13am
kaya

hj – Like many things I think it’s gotten to a point where frustration has set in that none of the “normal” channels are working.

The turnout might be poor in which case this is nothing but hot air but there is a level of frustration building among the “great unwashed” in Ireland, probably also in the USA. Rightly or wrongly they see the already rich and least contributing members of society (bankers, financiers, speculators) getting bailed out at the expense of those who actually do the work and who can least afford it.

You can tell people what you want, (even if it was the truth) about the reasons it happened. When markets are getting artificially propped up and bankers get multi billion dollar pay outs and bonuses after a crisis (which they caused themselves) at the same time as average people are being told they must take pay cuts and tighten their belts……. Well I don’t need to tell you how people are going to feel. Justfiably so.
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November 24, 2010 9:23am
Brian Smaller

“I wonder when we’ll see rallies here in New Zealand against the unsustainable borrowing, the threatened credit downgrade, the oversupply of bludgers and leftards who have placed New Zealand in its current parlous financial position?”

Not while we have state sector unions shouting and marching up and down Lampton Quay about how they need more money when the rest of get sweet fuck all in the current economic climate.
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November 24, 2010 9:32am
Fletch

In today’s news –

The United Nations Human Rights Council this month adopted nine resolutions against Israel. The United States opposed nothing….
Other UNHRC members responded with a verbal assault against the Israeli diplomat, which was also not stopped by the Obama administration representative.

“There is no other terrorism on the surface of the planet like the terrorism committed by Israel,” claimed the Syrian delegate. “This entity was established on the basis of terrorism.”…

Gee, thanks Obama, for standing with your ally, Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East. We all know who the real countries are that support terrorism and it’s not Israel.
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November 24, 2010 9:34am
Murray

Fletch Obama is not ally of Israel, he is an enemy of Israel and dedicated to its destruction through inaction.

Like all dedicated socialists.
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November 24, 2010 9:42am
Puzzled in Ekatahuna

Instead of transport showing their ads,”Don’t tell them I was drinking”, “If he’d been doing 50 he would have stopped here” and this “Mantrol” krap, endlessly on TV, I think they should procure this rights for this from Australia
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Z2mf8DtWWd8
and show it just once a week for a while.
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November 24, 2010 9:42am
Jack5

Am I the only person in New Zealand who didn’t know that English is not an official language of New Zealand, but that Maori and NZ Sign Language are?

With Maori language speakers decreasing in number, could NZ end up a country without a spoken official language?

This From the Education Ministry’s NZ Curriculum Online:

…Te reo Ma-ori and New Zealand Sign Language (NZSL) are official languages of New Zealand. English, the medium for teaching and learning in most schools, is a de facto official language by virtue of its widespread use.

The Link:

http://nzcurriculum.tki.org.nz/Curriculum-documents/The-New-Zealand-Curriculum/Official-languages
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November 24, 2010 9:49am
hj

If society were to collapse, I think we are more likely to have a totalitarian right-wing regime as communism has been there, done that.
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November 24, 2010 9:50am
Jimbob

I see the Black Caps put up their usual stoic performance against India yesterday.
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November 24, 2010 9:55am
Pete George

That’s just bad wording Jack, English is one of the three official languages here, and happens to be the de facto official language through it’s almost universal use.

Jimbob – back to normal I’m afraid.
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November 24, 2010 10:08am
big bruv

FFS!

We have “earthquake stress grants” available now?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4378501/Quake-grants-attract-cheats
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November 24, 2010 10:10am
Murray

Screw it make Maori the only languge recognised here.

Lets see how many toursit plans land when the ground controllers refuse to talk to people who only speak English.

Real world meets agenda. Real world one, agenda nil.
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November 24, 2010 10:15am
Jack5

Pete George posted at 10.08:

…English is one of the three official languages here…

That’s interesting, Pete, but by definition surely a language cannot be an official language if there is nothing in legislation to say it is, and if at the same time two other languages are legislated to be official.

The current position seems to confuse the language issue.

For example, a Google search reveals Green MP Maori,Metiria Turei, saying this as far back as 17 June 2003 of Maori language:

… the first and only legislated official language of Aotearoa New Zealand

This, from a Human Rights Commission document, Statement of Language Policy: Languages in Aotearoa New Zealand

English is the mostly widely used language in New Zealand and the ability to communicate in English is important for all New Zealanders. Te Reo Maori and New Zealand Sign Language are recognised by law as official languages
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November 24, 2010 10:33am
Pete George

New Zealand has three official languages: English, Māori (from 1987) and New Zealand Sign Language (from April 2006).

http://www.socialreport.msd.govt.nz/people/official-languages.html
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November 24, 2010 10:37am
Jack5

Pete at 10.37, in response to my pointing out there is no legislation that says English is an official language of NZ, fires back a report from the Ministry of Social Development.

Thank you Pete, but where is the legislation that gives English its status as an official language? There are acts making Maori and NZ Sign Languages official languages of the country, but there are apparently none for English language.

Some passing statement in a Government department bulletin does not make a language an official language.
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November 24, 2010 10:41am
Repton

Am I the only person in New Zealand who didn’t know that English is not an official language of New Zealand, but that Maori and NZ Sign Language are?

It’s worse than that — English is not even an official language of England!!!
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November 24, 2010 10:45am
Pete George

An interesting exercise.

Citizenship Amendment Bill 226-1 (2010)

Clause 12 amends section 11, which relates to the discretion of the Minister to make the grant of New Zealand citizenship conditional on the applicant taking an oath of allegiance or an affirmation to similar effect. The amendment inserts new subsection (1A), which provides that the oath or affirmation required by section 11(1) must be taken in an official language of New Zealand. The official languages of New Zealand are English, te reo Māori, and New Zealand Sign Language.

If you google: site:.legislation.govt.nz official english language
you’ll find plenty of legal references to English language being required.
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November 24, 2010 10:47am
Jack5

Re Pete at 10.47 pointing to the Citizenship Amendment Bill…

Yep this amendment bill clearly refers to English as an official language. Perhaps a legal or constitutional expert can spell out to us whether such references establish English as an official language of NZ in the absence of specific legislation, or whether they just open the way for the post-Privy Council justice system to make the decision?

If English isn’t an official language of NZ, the ramifications are vast.
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November 24, 2010 11:02am
Nookin

There is no statutory definition of “official language”. It is the language accepted for use by the Courts and Parliament. It has particular significance in the context of international arbitrations. English has always been the official language of our courts. There is no need for any statutory endorsement of that. Maori and sign language have not, historically, been recognised either in Parliament or in our courts and recognition of these languages as “official languages” could only be achieved by statute.
The fact that there is no statutory endorsement is irrelevant. There is no legislation specifying that Tuesday follows Monday either. If anyone has any doubt about whether English is used in our court system, drop down to the nearest district court. I do not recommend that you go to Parliament to see what language they speak. Nobody understands anything that they say there any way.
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November 24, 2010 11:35am
hj

By learning te reo and becoming increasingly familiar with tikanga, Māori students strengthen their identities, while non-Māori journey towards shared cultural understandings. All who learn te reo Māori help to secure its future as a living, dynamic, and rich language. As they learn, they come to appreciate that diversity is a key to unity.
………………………
and what does tikanga tell them?
Māori Role in Aotearoa/New Zealand
Defined by tikanga (our laws)
derive from a world view that we inherited from our ancestors
rooted as much in the spiritual aspects of this world as the physical.
based on underlying values which include
Mana – authority, power, control, ownership, status, influence, dignity, respect all derived from the gods
Tapu – sacredness, spiritual power or protective force
Whanaungatanga – kinship, relationships through genealogical bonds
Kaitiakitanga – inherited responsibilities to take care of all our natural resources including our lands, waters, seas and other taonga
Rangatiratanga – chieftainship including sovereignty, rights of self-determination, self government, authority and power to make decisions and own and control resources.

http://www.goingbananas.org.nz/…/Going_Bananas_August_07_Maori_Roots_Multicultural_NZ.ppt –

The key to unity is to be a racial masochist like Jim Consodine or Katherine Delahunty and get in line behind our indigenous “hosts”.
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November 24, 2010 11:39am
grumpyoldhori

Fools would have others rush in, bloody funny is it not that those whose arses will not be on the line want others to rush into an explosive filled atmosphere.
Only takes one brave man etc etc etc, yep seen that, got the bodies out, trench collapsed, so instead of going for aid his mate dived into the trench to dig him out, the rest of the trench collapsed on them both, they were found an hour later both dead .
So tell me you brave people, how many more miners are you prepared to sacrifice ?
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November 24, 2010 12:04pm
dad4justice

big bruv thanks for the stress grant. Are you shaking reading this Mr Plonker?
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November 24, 2010 12:52pm
Komata

GoH

Agreed. The way the media are pushing this (for themselves BTW, the PR situation is merely the vehicle to make them look good) reminds me of a schoolyard fight where the spectators are all around the fighters urging them to ‘punch harder, punch harder’, yet one does and their opponent falls, and a teacher appears, turn on the fighters and say ‘he did it, he did it’, then scatter as fast as they can – gnoring completely their own duplicity in encouraging th fighters in their action.

The media are pushing the company and Police to ‘do something’ (aka anything that makes headlines and sells papers or TV -appearances) and if something goes wrong/ responsibility? us? we CAUSED IT (by our pushing), never, twasn’t us, etc, etc, etc.

And to answer your question: ‘So tell me you brave people, how many more miners are you prepared to sacrifice ?’

As many as we can, old chap, AS MANY AS WE CAN!!!

BTW (Anyone): Any guesses as to how much money has changed hands to obtain ‘exclusive’ coverage by certain (un-named) media people? It’s sure to be a lot (or shouldn’t one even THINK of such a thing . . .?)
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November 24, 2010 1:37pm
kowtow

Jack5

Immigrants are also required to pass an English proficiency test, not Maori or sign!

This is interesting as the left and activists use the fact that there is an apparent “gap” in the law to exploit their own purposes.

I know we don’t have a written constitution like the USA and it’s states but the same problem is happening there. Constitution writres never imagined Hispanic hordes crossing the border to threaten English so language was not protected or defined. Now Americans see the need to(and it’s called racism).

Same with marriage and family in many countries. Noone would have ever imagined the nutty state of the west today ,so there was no need to define these basics,like the other poster said,Tuesday follows Monday, man marries woman!

Not any more.
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November 24, 2010 2:03pm
joana

News just in they are all dead.
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November 24, 2010 4:56pm
starboard

just heard..breaking news TV 1…all miners confirmed dead..has been a second explosion. A sad day for NZ.
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November 24, 2010 4:56pm
Tauhei Notts

General Debate so I can raise this matter.
I have just watched debates in Parliament and was agreeably surprised to watch and listen to a Labour Party list member who spoke intelligently. I was astounded. Almost all of their list M.P.’s are pathetic, then up stepped a bloke called Raymond Muo. A breath of fresh air amongst the Labour ranks. Very very good.
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November 24, 2010 8:45pm
Pete George

I’m not going to pollute the RIP thread, but Toad has fucked me off more than I’d have imagined was possible, that’s in the poorest taste. If he’s acting on behalf of a political organisation (which it sounds like) then it reflects as badly on them all.
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November 24, 2010 9:20pm
bhudson

Pete,

Well done for the self-control. You would have been more than justified in posting that in the same thread as toad [but to paraphrase the Toyota ad, “I would say that, wouldn’t I?”]
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November 24, 2010 9:24pm

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