General Debate 21 November 2010

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Lazybum

uno
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November 21, 2010 9:39am
Yvette

Total votes 22,387.
For Kris Faafoi 10,397 46.4% .
Against Faafoi 53.6%
C’est la vie
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November 21, 2010 9:54am
Pete George

A couple of good lessons Labour could take from Mana:

Don’t stuff electorates around and take them for granted, they want to feel properly represented.

It’s possible to be realistic about very slim chances of winning an election, give it your best shot, come up a much improved second and take a lot out of that.
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November 21, 2010 9:57am
malcolm

Yvette, you’re doing a Prendergast. If you extend your reasoning, you’ll find that more people voted “against” each of the other candidates. So Faafoi wins – that’s FPP
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November 21, 2010 9:59am
ciaron

How does it break down with a simpler left/right analysis?
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November 21, 2010 10:02am
big bruv

I was not surprised to see Paul Holmes give his old TVNZ mate Faafoi a soft ride this morning on Q&A, there is a list of pertinent questions a mile long that Holmes could have asked him instead he conducted the very worst type of patsy interview.
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November 21, 2010 10:06am
Pete George

More people didn’t vote for anyone than voted for someone.

Agree about the non-interview on Q&A, but I guess it’s not the time to be too scathing, Faafoi now has to front up and walk the walk he has talked about. Then examine him on how he does that.
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November 21, 2010 10:07am
thedavincimode

“instead he conducted the very worst type of patsy interview”

You seem surprised.
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November 21, 2010 10:10am
adze

Just watching Findlay McDonald’s “Talk Talk” show on TVNZ 7 interviewing Judith Tizard – a couple of swipes taken at “tory bloggers” so far…
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November 21, 2010 10:24am
Rodders

I watched the TV1 Marae Investigates interview with Chris Finlayson up till the point where he praised Tariana Turia’s courage. I then had to switch the TV off- I just couldn’t take any more of it.
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November 21, 2010 10:30am
reid

“…where he praised Tariana Turia’s courage.”

I don’t understand why people don’t like Turia. Sure she’s got some racist attitudes toward some (but not all) things, but that’s not a deal breaker to me, in and of itself. When you look at the whole package, you can see she has integrity, intelligence and not a bad sense of strategy. She’s in it for the long haul and she’s serious about making a positive difference for the people she represents and so far, she is an effective voice for Maori at the seats of power.

Some people seem to me to be against the entire Maori position across the entire board. I don’t see that as rational for whatever you feel about it it’s not going to go away so live with it. If you want to predict what it’s all going to turn out like, it’s not helpful if the only thing you ever think about with respect to it, is thinking about arguments as to why it shouldn’t even be there in the first place.
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November 21, 2010 11:43am
kaya

The financial turmoil around the world is a fascinating and extremely slow train wreck. Latest from Ireland, they have told the IMF to get fucked over demands that the Irish increase their 12.5% corporate tax rate.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10689033

Should be an interesting arm wrestle, the Irish won’t take it Greek style the way the Greeks did.
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November 21, 2010 11:43am
Scumsucker

http://en.islamtoday.net/artshow-231-3862.htm

Yaaaaay we now have sharia law in New Zealand thanks to:

A piece of traitorous shit by the name of Justice Christopher Allan

A piece of traitorous shit call John Patsy Key
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November 21, 2010 11:48am
big bruv

Scumsucker

A slight over reaction on your part, the reality is that a Muslim couple have adopted a child.

I fail to see what the problem is.
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November 21, 2010 11:56am
Pete George

Reid at 11.43 – I agree. A lot of people have very selfish views, thinking they are good so anyone different is bad. They seem to think democracy is getting everything they want and stuffing everyone they don’t like. They need to wake up and grow up.

I think a mature democracy should accept that everyone should be able to have an input, opposing ideas and competition are healthy – in fact essential – and that all groups playing within the rules who advocate strongly for themselves should be allowed to do that in a competitive environment.
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November 21, 2010 11:58am
reid

“Latest from Ireland, they have told the IMF to get fucked over demands that the Irish increase their 12.5% corporate tax rate.”

As you know kaya this is a cornerstone of their ongoing and successful Celtic Tiger strategy. To those who don’t know, the Celtic Tiger strategy is not the thing responsible for her serious debt issues now.

Wonder what the IMF response is going to be.

“…all groups playing within the rules who advocate strongly for themselves should be allowed to do that in a competitive environment…”

I agree Pete but I still hope that eventually this won’t include any lefties as they’ll all be looking after the children while the adults talk politics. Personally I’d enjoy that reality a lot more than this one.
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November 21, 2010 12:02pm
Rodders

reid and Pete, would you agree that this speech by Tariana Turia represents the sort of views you are comfortable having represented in government http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0411/S00021.htm

I regard Pita Sharples & Te Ururoa Flavell, through their emphasis on education as people who can provide that positive role model. I cannot view Tariana Turia in that way.
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November 21, 2010 12:14pm
dime

Dime has to MC a wedding this arvo.

I have all my material and i gotta say, im freakin hilarious..

BUT

if any of you funny bastards would like to share some gems, feel free.

Advice to groom, advice to bride, one liners, telegrams, stories.. not too cheesy.

probably shoulda tapped this resource earlier in the week.
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November 21, 2010 12:22pm
kaya

reid – yes, the financial story is an ever unfolding one. Too boring to follow for most who believe the worst is over. As you say, the Irish business strategy isn’t the reason for the problems.

There is an interesting book out about the height of the crisis. It looks into how the financial institutions have made themselves an integral and (apparently) indispensable part of the systems of power.

13 Bankers

http://13bankers.com/

A beautifully written and powerful story that ties the current financial crisis to a cycle of politics as old as the Republic, and to a pathology in our politics that is as profound as any that our Republic has faced. We are far away from solving that crisis, and hopelessly far from even understanding how we could cure this pathology. Required reading for the President, and anyone else who cares for this Republic.

Lawrence Lessig, Professor of Law and Director of the
Edmond J. Safra Foundation for Ethics at Harvard University

IN the last 30 years or so the our means of exchange has been hijacked. Too many within it are trying to make money without producing any service or product of any real value. Some bankers and financial “gurus” make obscene sums of money with nothing but smoke and mirrors. Nobody understands it yet it is accepted as normal, it is no more than alchemy.

The system was fine when they skimmed a little off the top but the parasites are moving in and devouring it. Personally I would be more than happy to let it collapse and design a new system.
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November 21, 2010 12:26pm
reid

Not sure what you’re getting at rodders. What’s in that speech that you find uncomfortable?
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November 21, 2010 12:28pm
reid

Thanks for that kaya, do you think the 13 are the State Reserves that own the Fed?
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November 21, 2010 12:32pm
kaya

Dime – here’s a one liner.

You have to remember all the trivia that your new wife tells you, because eventually you get tested. She’ll go “What’s my favourite flower?”, and you murmur to yourself “Shit, I wasn’t listening – self-raising?”

You might be able to work this one in but if not it’s funny anyway!

A young family moved into a house next door to an empty plot. One day Joe, Steve and a gang of building workers turned up to start building a house.

The young family’s 5-year-old daughter naturally took an interest in all the activity going on next door and started talking with the workers. She hung around and eventually the builders, all with hearts of gold, more or less adopted the little girl as a sort of project mascot. They chatted with her, let her sit with them while they had tea and lunch breaks, and gave her little jobs to do here and there to make her feel important. They even gave her, her very own hard hat and gloves.

At the end of the first week they presented her with a pay envelope containing two dollars in 10 cent coins. The little girl took her ‘pay’ home to her mother who suggested that they take the money she had received to the bank the next day to start a savings account.

When they got to the bank the cashier was tickled pink listening to the little girl telling her about her ‘work’ on the building site and the fact she had a ‘pay packet’.

‘You must have worked very hard to earn all this,’ said the bank cashier.

The little girl proudly replied, ‘I worked all last week with the men building a big house.’

‘My goodness gracious,’ said the cashier. ‘Will you be working on the house again this week, as well?’ The little girl thought for a moment and said…

‘I think so. Provided those wankers at Carters deliver the fucking timber and it doesn’t piss down with rain .’
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November 21, 2010 12:34pm
kaya

reid – here’s the list:

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2009/03/27/list-of-bank-ceos-meeting-with-obama-at-the-white-house/

Jamie Dimon, JP Morgan Chase
Ken Chenault, American Express
John Koskinen, Freddie Mac
Ronald Logue, State Street
Robert Kelly, BONY-Mellon
Rick Waddell, Northern Trust
James Rohr, PNC
Lloyd Blankfein, Goldman
John Mack, Morgan Stanley
Vikram Pandit, Citi
John Stumpf, Wells Fargo
Cam Fine, Independent Community Bankers
Edward Yingling, ABA
Richard Davis, US Bank
Ken Lewis, Bank of America

Obama is quoted as saying:

“The only thing between you and the pitchforks is my administration”
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November 21, 2010 12:36pm
Rodders

reid, I find this paragraph particularly troubling “So when Cabinet Ministers sat around tut-tutting the fact that the fertility rate for Maori females aged 13-17 years was 26.2 per 1000, more than five times that of non-Maori, (4.9% per 1000), I objected to their analysis of our fertility as a problem.”

The whole tone of seperatism between Maori and non-Maori of her outlook must be worrying. That is the main reason I hope that her party does not hold the balance of power after next year’s election. If she hadn’t changed her mind on the issue of retiring in 2011 (as she indicated she would on Election Night 2008), I wouldn’t be so concerned. Her views are on a different planet from Pita Sharples IMO.
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November 21, 2010 12:40pm
dime

cheers kaya! ive heard a different version of the flour joke. it must work. think ill rewrite it a bit 🙂
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November 21, 2010 12:50pm
reid

Obama is quoted as saying: “The only thing between you and the pitchforks is my administration”

This from the President with more Wall-streeters in his Administration than any other President in history.

rodders, seriously I still don’t get it, why is that para troubling? So what if she objected to a scientific study’s conclusions?

As for the tone of separatism, I look at it just as the background noise of this treaty process. Sure you get idiots all the time like those ones at the yacht club right now. So what? I haven’t noticed the entire Maori nation doing that. If they ever did, I’d be very worried, but most of them most of the time do nothing radical and just quietly await the legal outcomes. What’s wrong with that?

As I said above, the precursor to this view is accepting that Maori have a right to follow the legal processes that have been setup to deal with their issues. If you argue that those laws are constitutionally invalid because they apply only to a specific group, I’m afraid your view is pointless because the courts disagree and they’re the only ones with deciderer powers in this so why waste time on thinking about it. Unless of course one of you has a constitutional argument that hasn’t been raised before.
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November 21, 2010 12:54pm
Rodders

reid, Unlike Tariana Turia, I do not regard the number of Maori having babies between the ages 13-17 as something to celebrate. She is on record as saying that by Maori having babies as teenagers, the Maori to Pakeha ratio in this country can be changed (you may recall the warm congratulations she sent Keisha Castle-Hughes on the announcement of her pregnancy at the age of 16).
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November 21, 2010 1:14pm
reid

“She is on record as saying that by Maori having babies as teenagers, the Maori to Pakeha ratio in this country can be changed…”

Sounds logical to me. Why is this a problem?
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November 21, 2010 1:25pm
Hagues

For Dime….

Today we had the wonderful opportunity to witness a very special and momentous occassion in the lives of two people whom we care very much about…. and after watching Richie McCaw and Mils Muliaina become the most capped All Blacks we had to come to this wedding…..
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November 21, 2010 1:26pm
Hagues

reid “Sounds logical to me. Why is this a problem?”

Because the people having the babies can’t afford to bring them up and so put their hand out to the taxpayers for starters.
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November 21, 2010 1:28pm
Rodders

reid, is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
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November 21, 2010 1:28pm
wat dabney

“I don’t understand why people don’t like Oswald Mosley. Sure he’s got some racist attitudes toward some (but not all) things, but that’s not a deal breaker to me, in and of itself. When you look at the whole package, you can see he has integrity, intelligence and not a bad sense of strategy. He’s in it for the long haul and he’s serious about making a positive difference for the people he represents”

“Some people seem to me to be against the entire Maori position across the entire board”

There isn’t “an entire Maori position,” any more than there is an entire white position. Calling itself The Maori Party, using the definate article, is the height of patronising racism.
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November 21, 2010 1:57pm
reid

It’s the 5 min argument Rodders. I hope.

The reason it’s not a problem, for me, is that I doubt very many Maori teenagers would have heard about Turia’s views and even if they had, I don’t think they’re any different from other teenagers in that most of them would prefer not to get saddled with a baby just yet. In the context of her entire speech to that obscure conference that paragraph to me isn’t significant, given the whole theme was about Maori life philosophies of which she mentioned many this being but one. If one thinks this will lead to an outbreak of children having children I don’t agree.

“Calling itself The Maori Party, using the definate article, is the height of patronising racism.”

Apparently Maori don’t seem to think it’s patronising based on MP poll ratings.
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November 21, 2010 2:00pm
Jack5

Te Reo problems in Taiwan, the ultimate homeland of Maori and other Polynesian people.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10602697
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November 21, 2010 2:07pm
Jack5

Re Te Reo and Taiwan….

But they beat Maori TV to the punch with an indigenous channel

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4640567.stm

Perhaps also of interest:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2515843.stm
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November 21, 2010 2:11pm
kowtow

Reid@1202

The low tax rate is ,with respect,not the reason for Irelands’ success. In fact there has been no success. It was all smoke and mirrors and they are going to pay for it now.

The Irish state has always sought overseas investment, practically from the outset after its anti British attitudes drove out Anglo Irish enterprise in the ’20s.

The so called tiger only took off in the ’90s after a no. of factors came together. EEC membership (German subsidies), globalisation and the tech and pharmaceutical burst in the 90’s with highly mobile plant and capital moving to Ire to take advantage of the numerous incentives provided by the state,(some have since moved to cheaper pastures leaving unemployment in their wake), a pact between govt,unions and employers ending years of industrial strife that frightened off foreign investment,the credit debauch that brought cheap money and the property investment boom that led to a building boom ,full employment ,big tax revenues to the govt and immigration to Ire.That combination of factors led to the so called tiger economy ,the credit crunch has seen to that though.No more credit,no more building,no more full employment.Massive cuts everywhere!Time for the medicine which alot of folk don’t want to take. Their student riot wasn’t reported here. Dublin ain’t London you see.

None of the above was based on indigenous entrepeneurism and it had a huge underpining of tax transfers and state interference in the economy. It was unsustainable. The tiger was actually a mangey old cat.

Read any history of the troubled Anglo Irish Bank and you’ll get the picture of this really rapid boom to bust story.

Another issue in Ire is political corruption ,it’s huge there.

Hubris is a word much bandied about but it applies to the so called tiger.
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November 21, 2010 2:30pm
Manolo

A Irish rugby tripe-writer penned this in today’s Irish Times today: “That brings us to Brian O’Driscoll. In my opinion, Brian remains the best captain in world rugby. Better than Richie McCaw. His personal performances for eleven years have been extraordinary.

To captain New Zealand is a great honour but it is hardly an onerous task, considering the talent they possess, in comparison to the demands placed upon O’Driscoll.”

How could he be so one-eyed? Imbecility reigns supreme!
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November 21, 2010 2:58pm
reid

kowtow, according to one of the architects I heard at a lecture at Auckland School of Business in 2001, the Celtic Tiger strategy consisted of the following factors deployed vigorously throughout the nineties.

Identify several areas of industrial opportunity: Ireland chose IT and Bio-informatics, which is number crunching for geneticists. There was a synergy in the choice, as for every geneticist, there were 5-8 IT specialists required.

Configure your tertiary education system around those two priorities.

Setup areas of low corporate taxes in depressed economic regions. As a result, over 300 multi-nationals setup their European facilities there.

In 2001, Ireland exported more software than the US.

The fact Ireland’s bankers and politicians have led Ireland into a serious financial crisis, has no connection whatsoever in my view, to this strategy. I don’t see how it could have because to me, the tiger strategy and the financial crisis are happening in completely different arenas.
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November 21, 2010 3:18pm
reid

Further to previous, the thing to me that’s blindingly obvious is that this strategy is equally suited right here right now, to us. This is our catch-Australia policy right here.

BTW that architect was on his way to see Hulun next day and guess what, nothing ever came of it and several years later, we lost the Motorola R&D facility to Aus. Perhaps she didn’t like the idea of multi-nationals paying less tax.

We are perfectly positioned to do exactly the same thing in animal and plant genetics and food research. I like the genetics bit but we need another industry, something in the green field perhaps, like hydrogen fuel cell production plants and/or robotics. Personally I’ve always been a huge fan of us making lots of world-class defensive military technology like radar systems, anti-missile missiles, etc. With our ingenuity we would be really good at that.

But absolutely no reason why the Celtic Tiger strategy wouldn’t succeed for us as well as it has for Ireland.
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November 21, 2010 3:36pm
adze

reid, I’ve been thinking recently we could leverage our agriculture r&d into bio-plastics. Another option, and it could enhance our “green” brand.
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November 21, 2010 3:40pm
kowtow

reid
so some arse hole gives a talk at the height of a boom using all sorts of bullshit terms like “configure your tertiary education’ etc and you buy it!

When I were a young lad doing school economics in ’77 in Ire our teacher described Ire as a “branch factory economy”. It was then and it is now.And when there’s trouble or better opportunities elsewhere those branches are the first to close.

The grand strategy you descrbe above is the same strategy Ire has tried to employ since the ’30s to make up for a lack of local enterprise and to provde employment.

As to the technology boom and grand strategies read this and weep.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/technology/article5472924.ece
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November 21, 2010 3:41pm
big bruv

Manolo

That rugby writer is dead bloody right.

Stop being so one eyed.
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November 21, 2010 3:46pm
wat dabney

“Apparently Maori don’t seem to think it’s patronising based on MP poll ratings.”

How many votes would the party get if it wasn’t advocating a generous “redisdribution” of other people’s earnings?

It is a standard special-interest group; a vehicle for plunder.
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November 21, 2010 4:32pm
reid

kowtow, perhaps you didn’t notice, that this man was talking about things that actually did happen: i.e. it wasn’t a theory. Did you notice that?

No it’s not the same strategy Ireland has “tried to employ since the ’30’s” for clearly something happened to bring Ireland from poverty to wealth in such a short time, or perhaps it was just a miracle. You only have those two choices, based on history, you know. So which one was it?

“read this and weep”

From your link:

“Established in Ireland in 1990, Dell employed more than 4,500 staff in Ireland at its height and is the country’s biggest exporter and second largest company.”

My point kowtow is that Dell would not have been there in the first place, the fact it was, is because of the strategy. The fact it is now leaving, has nothing to do with the strategy that bought it here. How can you equate those two separate issues.

Here’s a clue. The Celtic Tiger did its job which was to encourage employers and international investment. That worked. Tick. Then along came mismanagement in the political and financial arenas which failed to control the environment. This has changed the game globally. Game changer. Not the same as it was. Strategy, already done, accomplished, finished. Management failure causing GFC? Final outcomes TBC. Responsibility of strategy toward environmental mismanagement = null. Ability of strategy to influence environmental mismanagement = moderate, out of its area of responsibility but folly alerts hopefully were exchanged before it actually turned turtle.

“using all sorts of bullshit terms like “configure your tertiary education’ etc”

No that was my bullshit term kowtow, I quite liked it, myself. I can’t recall exactly which words he used, all those years ago. Perhaps you could, but I can’t.
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November 21, 2010 4:36pm
reid

“we could leverage our agriculture r&d into bio-plastics”

What is bio-plastic adze? I thought the definition of plastic was hydrocarbon? Do you mean bio-degradable or something else? Also how do you see it working? What’s the market? Would you do onshore production then export finished product or hold IP here and offshore the production?
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November 21, 2010 4:42pm
adze

Well, obviously I haven’t developed a business model for it; nor was it intended as a counter to your ideas. I’m just speculating – looking at possibilities for growing our industry exports and IP in ways that take advantage of our existing strengths and capacities in markets where we might have an advantage. Biodegradable plastics would be the obvious class of products but I would expect that ones that don’t require (petroleum) oil production would fall into the “green” category (as long as the industry itself is otherwise “clean”). As for the market, I would imagine that a market for sustainably-produced and/or biodegradable plastics would be quite broad as long as the cost wasn’t prohibitive. One possible feedstock would be commercial algal farms, which are already used in biofuel production overseas (known for high production per hectare compared to other feedstocks).
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November 21, 2010 5:01pm
reid

” looking at possibilities for growing our industry exports and IP in ways that take advantage of our existing strengths and capacities in markets where we might have an advantage.”

Me too adze, don’t get me wrong.

I’m not sure though whether converting bio-fuels into bio-plastics is feasible or not. If it is, it’s a good idea.

Even though I myself don’t and never have bought into peak oil, I recognise that like AGW it’s a current dynamic of geo-political life so why not even if you’re skeptical take advantage of that fact of life?

I’m somewhat puzzled by the apparent necessity for the markets to lift the price some 300% almost overnight and then keep it there coming on for five years now, without letup from the $15 bbl it used to be steady at for many many years prior. I mean, what happened there, to so radically permanently change it by 300+%?
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November 21, 2010 5:24pm
kaya

Reid – I agree with your analysis, Ireland moved out of years of poverty by creating the right environment to attract employers. This was no random event, this was the evolution of years of planning, some of it dating back to the early 70’s.

The Industrial Development Council identified pharmaceuticals, software and electronics as key growth areas. The National Economic and Social Authority brought out a strategy document in 1986 identifying the way forward. This group consisted of employers, workers, farming organizations, NGOs, government departments and independent experts.

Tertiary insitutions starting springing up in the 80’s focusing on engineering and IT The original tax incentive was 10% for manufacturers.
Basically the seeds were sown in the eighties for economic viability and growth. Obviously EU subsidies were useful but the effect on the economy has been overstated.

As with everywhere else, the pursuit of money for nothing is what killed the tiger. Speculation, easy credit, banks falling over themselves to lend money so the lenders could get their commissions. The parasites brought the tiger to it’s knees. Banking used to be a reasonably respectable profession. In recent years it has morphed into a monster. The financial “industries” (a superb oxymoron) are fully responsible for the turmoil we are witnessing today. The original economic growth in Ireland was based on sound principals.

The GFC isn’t over yet and I personally believe that the only thing that will fix it is a total breakdown, the sooner the better. The longer it takes, the longer the recovery will be.

The major financial institutions in the world went to their respective Governments (taxpayers) on their knees to get their bailout and as soon as they got it, turned around and lifted the middle finger.Governments were conned or complicit in theft as with the Obama administration. The arrogant bastards are ripe for a fall and when it comes it will be substantial.

I sincerely hope Ireland tells the IMF to go and fuck themselves. This financial analyst doesn’t think too much of the loss of sovereignty that could happen.

http://www.darkpolitricks.com/2010/11/max-keiser-on-the-irish-failing-economy/
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November 21, 2010 5:26pm
kaya

adze – not a bad idea. NZ’s marketing advantage is the “clean green” image. If we can supplement that with high value, high tech that can help sustain our best and brightest that would be excellent.
Talking about clean and green, I see Federated Farmers is calling for a ban on imported kiwifruit pollen. Sounds reasonable to me but Biosecurity Minister, David Carter is saying they are being unhelpful.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/rural/62151/minister-fends-off-pollen-claims
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November 21, 2010 5:35pm
Manolo

BB: We agree to disagree on rugby matters. Your profound distate of Canterbury aside, what he wrote is utter rubbish.
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November 21, 2010 6:03pm
dad4justice

Manolo – big brendan hates everything in Canterbury. I think he was gang raped by a horny mob of rams.
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November 21, 2010 6:14pm
Nomestradamus

*Cough*

dad4justice (6,950) Says:
November 4th, 2010 at 8:56 pm

Sorry David, I thought it was a classic line of wit. I will cease posting on kiwiblog as I have been told by the friendly Feds enough is enough.
God bless the Yanks.
See you later mate. Thanks for my time here at kiwiblog.

You’re still here! So what gives – still obsessed with Big Bruv?
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November 21, 2010 6:46pm
dad4justice

Get a life nome.
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November 21, 2010 6:51pm
Nomestradamus

Dad4Justice:

I raise a valid point.

On this thread – only 5 days after you supposedly left Kiwiblog for good – you first offered a $5000 bounty for “the name and address of big bruv” and then said:

dad4justice (6,950) Says:
November 9th, 2010 at 8:28 pm

hey big bruv every reader or commentator on here knows you like shit stirring people who do not want to comment any further on here because of your vile and malicious rhetoric. I wonder what makes a #### like yourself tick.
I told you and Farrar I have finished here days ago = SO FUCK OFF!

So, I ask again, why are you still here?
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November 21, 2010 6:56pm
dad4justice

Oh nome, I will go away to please you. Sorry to cause stress. Man you must have a boring life.
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November 21, 2010 6:58pm
Nomestradamus

Dad4Justice:

I see. You stalk Big Bruv on Kiwiblog (and put out a $5000 bounty for his name and address), and yet I’m the one who has a boring life? You really should get out more.
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November 21, 2010 7:19pm
Viking2

It seems that the Gay boys at the Church have been given the OK to use condoms to help prevent HiV spread but its still not OK for others to use them to prevent pregnancy.

Pope: condoms can be justified in some cases
AP
Last updated 10:06 21/11/2010

Pope
ADMISSION: Pope Benedict XVI says in a new book that condoms can be justified for male prostitutes seeking to stop the spread of HIV.
Pope Benedict XVI

Pope Benedict XVI says in a new book that condoms can be justified for male prostitutes seeking to stop the spread of HIV, a stunning comment for a church criticized for its opposition to condoms and for a pontiff who has blamed them for making the AIDS crisis worse.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/4369457/Pope-condoms-can-be-justified-in-some-cases

What sad bastards they really are.
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November 21, 2010 7:20pm
dad4justice

Oh nome FFS, had many malicious emails from big brendan yourself ? Since I have created a filter for bb things are so much better so I thought I might comment here again. Still can’t get my head around bb is brendan dugan the singer. What the hell happened or was it all a farce. No doubt you’ll know. Do get a life. Do you ever do anything other than nit picking? Don’t answer please.
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November 21, 2010 7:27pm
Lucia Maria

Viking,

I was just coming over here to do a pre-emptive post on that very issue, but obviously I wasn’t fast enough.

The media have got it so wrong. The Pope has NOT ok’ed condom use. His comments were far more subtle than that.

What he has said is that condom use by male prostitutes could indicate the awakening of a moral sense. ie, care for the other person, rather than not caring if the other person is infected by disease.

I have a whole post on this: The Pope and those comments on condoms
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November 21, 2010 7:27pm
Pete George

They’re living in an imaginary world Viking.
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November 21, 2010 7:30pm
Nomestradamus

Dad4Justice:

Has Big Bruv outed himself as Brendan Dugan? I must have missed that. When?

Lucyna:

Could you explain, in a few words, exactly why the Pope sees fit to pronounce on condom use (and why others should be expected to care what he thinks)?
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November 21, 2010 7:31pm
dad4justice

“Has Big Bruv outed himself as Brendan Dugan? I must have missed that. When?”

Ask Dirty Rat or Peak Oil. Haha.
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November 21, 2010 7:40pm
Pete George

Italy has one of the lowest birth rates in the Western world. But, of course, it mightn’t be ignoring Vatican directives on condoms that is behind that.
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November 21, 2010 7:49pm
Lucia Maria

Nomestradamus,

On morals, the Pope is the voice of God.

People do take notice, you should see the number of news items on this very topic.
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November 21, 2010 7:50pm
Lucia Maria

Pete,

You got married in a Catholic church. Why did you do that?
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November 21, 2010 7:53pm
Pete George

Convenience in a different age, when I was too young to make a stand on my views. The person I married had been brought up a Catholic but was disillusioned with it all, but for the wider family the simple thing was to get married in the local Catholic church. I don’t regret it, it didn’t change my life, apart maybe it helped for me to ensure my second marriage was done exactly how I (we) wanted it done for ourselves. And, incidentally, it’s a stronger marriage that I’m confident of seeing the distance with.
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November 21, 2010 7:58pm
Yvette

Lucia Maria – “On morals, the Pope is the voice of God.”

Does the other voice of God, the Bible, actually have a text that appoints the Pope as God’s spokesman, and by what scripture are condoms forbidden?
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November 21, 2010 8:02pm
Nomestradamus

Lucia Maria (sorry, by force of habit, I used your previous alias earlier):

On morals, the Pope is the voice of God.

People do take notice, you should see the number of news items on this very topic.

But here’s the rub: if the Pope is the voice of God, as you assert, then he doesn’t (nor can he claim to) speak to a universal audience. Not everyone hangs on every utterance the Pope makes.
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November 21, 2010 8:05pm
reid

“I sincerely hope Ireland tells the IMF to go and fuck themselves.”

So do I kaya but also I have this spooky feeling…
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November 21, 2010 8:07pm
Lucia Maria

Pete,

Ah, that was your first wife. My point is somewhat moot. Lack of fidelity to the Church is not racial. Disillusioned Catholics are everywhere, not just in NZ. Typically they are disillusioned with what they think the Faith is, rather than what it actually is. In my own experience, lack of challenge, dumbing it down, make it less appealing and therefore easy to leave as a young woman. Italy is not immune to this liberalism. And if you look at their history, there was a rebellion that while it created Italy, it destroyed the Papal States.
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November 21, 2010 8:15pm
Lucia Maria

Yvette,

Yes. But it takes a lot of reading, and I’ve noticed that those that don’t believe this refuse to do the reading or refuse to accept what their reading tells them.

There is another voice of God: Your conscience. Unfortunately, this one too is very difficult to listen to as people refuse to accept what it tells them.
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November 21, 2010 8:17pm
Yvette

Lucia Maria, could this reading you refer to include –
“This rock” that the church is built on isn’t Peter, it is the confession Peter made. You see, the church wasn’t built on Peter, it was built on the truth about the divine Person, Jesus Christ. Peter expressed the truth, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heven.”  ”And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and on this rock (petra) I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” Agreeing with this, the statement written by Paul in 1 Cor. 3:11, “For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus christ.” Likewise, in Ephesians 2:20 – “And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner-stone.”
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November 21, 2010 8:22pm
Lucia Maria

Nomestradamus,

But here’s the rub: if the Pope is the voice of God, as you assert, then he doesn’t (nor can he claim to) speak to a universal audience.

Yes he can. God is concerned with the eternal destiny of everyone alive on earth.

Not everyone hangs on every utterance the Pope makes.

They are hanging on every utterance to do with sex. Again, look at the number of news items.
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November 21, 2010 8:22pm
Lucia Maria

Yvette,

That is only the beginning of the whole argument. Easy to debunk that particular one. If you want to do some reading, that is.
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November 21, 2010 8:24pm
Yvette

Lucia Maria – you fail to give one text to either support the Pope being God’s spokesperson or the condemnation of the use of condoms. Do you not have relative texts or is the word of God not self explanatory?
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November 21, 2010 8:34pm
Nomestradamus

Lucia Maria:

Yes he can. God is concerned with the eternal destiny of everyone alive on earth.

That’s your opinion, but not everyone shares it. I think it’s fair to say that not everyone accepts the Pope as God’s official spokesperson on moral issues. There are other “brands” of religion, if I can put it that way.

They are hanging on every utterance to do with sex. Again, look at the number of news items.

And I can point you to any number of trivial news items to do with sex – here’s one for starters. The fact that it’s the Pope talking about sex makes it more newsworthy, perhaps, but it doesn’t mean everyone cares what he thinks.
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November 21, 2010 8:40pm
Pete George

I have a conscience, and no god. It’s not difficult. I just don’t put labels on things.

In my view no god, and especially no man or woman who claims some special supernatural connection, has anything to do with me or my life. I don’t need to bow to the self grandeur of others.
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November 21, 2010 8:44pm
kaya

It really is time for a separate religious thread. It is NOT a GD topic. It always fucks up the thread. (Apart from fucking up many lives).
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November 21, 2010 8:52pm
Lucia Maria

Yvette,

I don’t expect you’ll read it, but here goes nothing: Here’s a transcript of a talk on the subject.
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November 21, 2010 8:55pm
Lucia Maria

Kaya,

Yes, secularist blasphemy. Any mention of religion. Must be repressed at all costs!
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November 21, 2010 9:02pm
kaya

It’s only blasphemy if you believe in it. And I didn’t say I wanted it repressed, I said it should get it’s own section so you can keep it amongst those who give a shit.
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November 21, 2010 9:11pm
Lucia Maria

So many topics in GD are pointless and boring. Yet, this is the one topic that must get it’s own section. Weird.

Do you know, I’ve noticed that GD’ers have a very short attention span as well. Someone can start talking about something else, and before you know it, the whole thread has moved that way.

It’s a very simple remedy for those that hate discussing religious topics.
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November 21, 2010 9:29pm
kaya

Some would call it a short attention span, others would call it variety of topic.
Some would call you and your ilk obsessive, going round ni circles without ever reaching any conclusion. Labels are in the eye of the beholder. Whatever, enjoy the rest of the night.
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November 21, 2010 9:38pm
Lucia Maria

I’ve just proved both points.
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November 21, 2010 9:40pm
Yvette

Lucia Maria, thank you – it will take a little while to read
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November 21, 2010 9:40pm
kaya

Talking about religion, I’m reading the “Lost Science of Money” trying to get an understanding of the monetary system, the greatest religion in the world and the one all the others are based on.
The latest chapter talked about the South Sea Bubble, one of the earliest accounts of market manipulation and crash. The last couple of paragraphs of this chapter:

the people occasionally understood the issue (monetary system corruption and manipulation in the 19th century), but mostly did not, and in the 20th century, almost never. The ever escalating horror of the wars engendered in large part by the bankers, combined with immense national debt loads and ever increasing taxation, ground the people down, reducing their ability to rationally consider political and social questions. This further concentrated control into the hands of the malefactors.
Financial control of mass communications, starting with the pulpit and newspapers, then radio, movies and television, to say nothing of the universities, would keep the money question out of view or out of focus.

Only the greatest expenditure of energy and money over the last three centuries have kept that form of economic organisation from being defined and understood in terms of fraud and theft. That brings our study to the propoganda apparatus charged with the task of keeping this plutocratic system whitewashed.

The next chapter is called “POLITICAL ECONOMISTS: PRIESTHOOD OF THE BANKER THEOLOGY”

Can’t wait.
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November 21, 2010 10:59pm

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