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November 18, 2010 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 18 November 2010

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MikeNZ

good morning
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/Excerpt+Harper+speech+Israel+anti+Semitism/3796186/story.html

A man worth having as prime minister, a principled man a man of action.
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November 18, 2010 8:01am
Jack5

Sideshow Bob Parker is back to old form in Christchurch. With the election over, he’s virtually told Christchurch to get stuffed and get over the earthquake, though after-shocks continue and damage problems remain. Quite astonishing after Parker’s blatant use of the quake for daily publicity in the mayoral election.

It’s highly likely that by the time the next mayoral election comes around Parker will be widely despised in Christchurch. As Parker was so heavily endorsed by Key he is regarded as a National mayor, so opprobrium will rub off on National in the next Parliamentary term. Perhaps Parker will then withdraw to Hawaii with Key.

Meanwhile new councillor Aaron Keown, an ACT supporter and a likely stirrer within council, is undergoing trial by media as leaks build into articles in the Christchurch Press that fall to a nadir today, with a report of Keown’s mother’s conviction for some sort of benefit rort.

They are going after Keown over something his late MOTHER did!

All this before council business begins in proper. Parker’s team is trying to gag him in advance.
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November 18, 2010 8:02am
mjwilknz

Another cyclist killed on NZ’s roads! Is anyone else fearful of the calls that will come for the Government to DO SOMETHING? Why is that so often NZers’ first reaction? Especially given how controversial cycling is in the eyes of many drivers, why isn’t anyone calling for the cyclists themselves to DO SOMETHING?
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November 18, 2010 8:05am
Fletch

MikeNZ, yes, great speech, great man. I posted a link to a part of this speech on video on another gd. You can see it here –

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUfFdhIOoQM&feature=player_embedded#!
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November 18, 2010 8:07am
Dirty Rat

Unbeleiveable !!!

Double Dipton is questioning and demanding answers why Westpac is paying its Boss its currently salary

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10688329

Dear Westpac
in this current economy please explain why you are paying your CEO $5.59 million

Dear Mr English
We respond to your question with the reasoning that it is none of your fucking business
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November 18, 2010 8:08am
MikeNZ

Fletch
here is another view of Israel.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-israel-is-a-rogue-all-right-maybe-even-a-lovable-one-2415718.html

Sobering thuoghts for all other countries per capita…..
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2010/11/16/jews-israel-many-democracy/
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November 18, 2010 8:13am
wreck1080

I expect English was making those comments in a private capacity.

I do find it strange, how in one of the worst depressions since world war 2, the banks are making huge profits.

Even the banks in the UK, where the economy is even worse.
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November 18, 2010 8:14am
Dirty Rat

wreck1080
If you expect that Double Trougher Dipton was making those comments privately, then I expect that those comments were of course private.
Shall I reiterate the question ?

Dear Westpac
in this current economy please explain why you are paying your CEO $5.59 million
A very concerned citizen not acting on behalf of the government but in a private capacity

Dear Mr English
We respond to your question with the reasoning that it is none of your fucking business

Also wreck are you anti profit ?, do you want nanny state to go in and control something that Westpac’s customers can effectively control themselves with their feet ?
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November 18, 2010 8:21am
MikeNZ

yeah right dirty rat.
how often do people change their banks?

I have no problem with someone who owns the company paying themselves any amount, as it is their money but an employee on these levels of salary in relation to their other employees?
Nah.
call me a dirty left wing commie if you want but something sticks in my craw at that.
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November 18, 2010 8:31am
James Stephenson

Dear Mr English
We respond to your question with the reasoning that it is none of your fucking business

Also wreck are you anti profit ?, do you want nanny state to go in and control something that Westpac’s customers can effectively control themselves with their feet ?

Erm, you do realise that the NZ Government is a pretty big customer of Westpac’s? I think it’s actually fairly reasonable for the Minister of Finance to say to them “You’re charging us this and paying your CEO how much?
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November 18, 2010 8:34am
MikeNZ

Good point James, I didn’t know that.
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November 18, 2010 8:35am
Nookin

“Another cyclist killed on NZ’s roads! Is anyone else fearful of the calls that will come for the Government to DO SOMETHING? Why is that so often NZers’ first reaction? Especially given how controversial cycling is in the eyes of many drivers, why isn’t anyone calling for the cyclists themselves to DO SOMETHING”

So, we have a car coming around a blind bend on the wrong side of the road skittling cyclists doing nothing wrong and a car door that opens right in the path of a cyclist who would have been clearly visible had the driver bothered to look, forcing the cyclist to swerve and get cleaned up by a truck and its the cyclists that have to do something?
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November 18, 2010 8:39am
Fletch

I see that some ~~propagandists~~ aid workers on board one of the ‘peace flotillas’ to give aid to Gaza have themselves been taken captive by the ships captain.

Seven British aid workers held captive on a ship in the Libyan sea have been told they may be treated as “terrorists” when they reach land, sources on board said today.

The volunteers, part of the Road to Hope convoy bringing aid to Gaza, say they were taken by force from Derna Harbour in Libya yesterday after a payment dispute with the ship’s captain.

After more than 24 hours at sea, the captives – who are being held in a small cabin on the ship’s lower deck – arrived in Greek waters this morning, where the ship was boarded by a group of Greek commandos.

It has now anchored at Piraeus, near Athens, but it may be hours before the aid workers can leave the vessel.

MORE

Can’t even broker peace on your own flotilla, I don’t know what you have to teach the Israelis
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November 18, 2010 8:39am
MikeNZ

and Obama is having the USA fund hamas under the table against US law!
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=195474

According to the Congressional Research Service, the PA is the largest recipient of foreign assistance in the world. According to Bloomberg, it received $1.2 billion in 2009 and will receive $1.8 billion by the end of the year.

The US provided the PA with $500.9 million in 2009 and, before Clinton’s announcement, was scheduled to provide it with $550 million in 2011. This assistance does not include US financial support for UNRWA, an agency devoted exclusively to providing welfare benefits to Palestinians while subordinating itself to a Palestinian political agenda. The US is the single largest donor to UNRWA. Last year the $268 million US taxpayers gave the UN agency constituted 27 percent of UNRWA’s budget
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November 18, 2010 8:44am
Repton

a car door that opens right in the path of a cyclist who would have been clearly visible had the driver bothered to look, forcing the cyclist to swerve and get cleaned up by a truck and its the cyclists that have to do something?

Sure — just make sure you’re always riding far enough out from any parked cars that you don’t have to worry about doors opening suddenly.

(this is actually an official recommendation)
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November 18, 2010 8:47am
Kris K

More Climate Change & ETS Fraud

Just heard the Minister of Climate Fraud, Nick Smith, on National Radio further pushing the climate change and ETS fraud. Smith was even suggesting that ‘science’ will develop solutions to address CO2, NO2, and other so called ‘greenhouse’ gases. If I recall rightly it was bloody ‘science’ which got us into this whole mess in the first place!

When are these duplicitous liars going to stop pandering to the One Worlders at the UN? When are they going to stop the drive to bankrupt the West by transfering our wealth and intellectual property to emerging economies? – those same economies which are all but divorced from any climate change expectations and obligations.

We need to get rid of Smith, Key and all the other treasonous and pseudo right-wiing politicians who are happy to sell out New Zealand, and who continue to ignore and go against the will of the electorate. Last time I checked democratic government was meant to be by the people and for the people: We obviously don’t have a democracy, but rather something more approaching Socialism/Marxism/Communism – let’s not keep fooling ourselves that those who govern us have our best interests at heart!
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November 18, 2010 8:47am
stephen

Good point James, I didn’t know that.

The Greens want the govt’s banking put out to tender. Should I be surprised that it wasn’t?
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November 18, 2010 8:48am
mjwilknz

Nookin, if case you’re a cyclist, I’m one too! The problem with relying on the Government to do something is that car drivers make up a greater proportion of the population than do cyclists. Given how much many drivers dislike cyclists in this country, a democracy is never going to serve cyclists, only. If cyclists are yelling and screaming for more Government, its just going to annoy drivers: will the end result be any improvement in drivers’ perceptions of cyclists? Surely not!

Another approach is for cyclists, as a group, to stand up and say, look we’re not bad people, we’re just trying to use the roads, too! It is very hard to believe that’ll work if there’s any involvement of Government. Don’t we owe to those who’ve been killed to question whether more Government is the answer to their tragic ends?
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November 18, 2010 8:54am
Rick Rowling

a car door that opens right in the path of a cyclist who would have been clearly visible had the driver bothered to look, forcing the cyclist to swerve and get cleaned up by a truck and its the cyclists that have to do something?

Sure — just make sure you’re always riding far enough out from any parked cars that you don’t have to worry about doors opening suddenly.

That would be the middle of the traffic lane. And Repton would be patiently driving behind, not getting at all angry.
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November 18, 2010 8:55am
Dirty Rat

stephen has a point

Maybe the government should tender, instead of dictating how Westpac pays its employees.

Australian Bank too
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November 18, 2010 8:56am
Rick Rowling

Here is the official recommendation for drivers:

“Check rear-view mirrors and look over your shoulder before you open a car door at the road side. “
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November 18, 2010 8:58am
hj

Concerned about the Chinese buying up NZ’s productive base

Meanwhile, Key also let on as to what he said was the main driver behind the rule changes to the Act – to do with the increasing possibility of large land aggregations made by states like China as food security issues loom.

“What we were worried about was a scenario, not where an individual or a company came in and bought a farm, but we can see that long term food security issues are genuine issues that countries like China and those with a very large population are considering,” Key said.

“And they could easily, if they wanted to, go in and buy a very large part of the productive base in New Zealand,” he said.

“Even if it wasn’t economic today, on the basis that they’ve got 1.3 billion people to feed in years to come, and all the economics tell you they do not have enough arable land to feed their people as their population not only rises, but their wealth rises and they demand higher prices.

“That could have quite a lot of implications for Fonterra, for our productive sector and for the way that we operate.

“So that’s the rationale behind the rule change – to try and reflect that there might be a changing pattern in there,” he said.

http://www.interest.co.nz/rural-news/new-overseas-investment-act-rules-w…
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November 18, 2010 8:58am
mjwilknz

Repton, perhaps the cyclist should have given enough room for car doors and, as you’ve said, that’s what the rules say. However, it must be very hard to know who exactly was at fault in this case. That just shows rules alone can’t work, though. It seems to me that what’s needed is more respect between cyclists and drivers. And more respect isn’t something that easily comes about by having more Government intervention. That’ll be what many cyclists yell and scream for, though, I’ll bet.
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November 18, 2010 9:03am
MikeNZ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW5RUwQ8zvg&feature=share

a neat idea for Christmas gifts if you’re looking.
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November 18, 2010 9:11am
Brian Smaller

The problem with cyclists is that we don’t have enough of them. And one of the reasons there are fewer cyclists is helmet laws. Experience around the world has shown that pretty much every jurisdiction that introduced compulsory cycle helmet laws have seen a 50-75% reduction in the number of cyclists. The four cyclists killed in the last week were, presumably, all wearing their helmets which are rated for falling over at speeds of 24kph or less, not being impacted by a ton of steel going 100kph or a mutli-ton truck running one over.
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November 18, 2010 9:16am
Brian Smaller

And why the fuck are all our posts appearing as a blockquote under MikeNZ’s last post? Something should be done about it. Change the law.
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November 18, 2010 9:17am
Nookin

Sorry mjwilknz, I completely misjudged your comments. I thought for the moment that you may have been a road-rage motorist who would have cyclists confined to suburban parks.
Most of my recent cycling has been undertaken in Central Otago on rural roads. A few years back, cyclists were few and far between. Motorist displayed homicidal ignorance towards cycling. The growth in cycling in the area has been exponential. There is also much greater awareness among motorists. On the other hand, there are still be ignorant idiots who seem to think that they own the roads and everything else in front of them must give way. Their mindset is as follows:
1. It is compulsory to overtake a cyclist without slowing down and without crossing the white line
2. If at all possible, lean on the horn as hard as possible just as you are about to overtake
3. You get 10 points if you are able to overtake a cyclist in a stretch of road where there is a double yellow line, particularly if there is a truck coming the other way
4. You do not have to stop at stop signs if the only vehicle insight is a cyclist.
5. If you can do all of these in a truck or bus then you are a hero.

While people with this mindset are becoming outnumbered, as we have seen it does not take many to create an impact. Opening car doors in the face of a cyclist is just so basic. A cyclist was killed in Dunedin not long ago because of this and the driver was prosecuted. The risk is not unknown and mtorists must be aware of it. I would be interested to find out whether the driver in this particular case in Auckland had just parked the car in which case there is a reasonable possibility that the car actually overtook the cyclist some distance back down the road. If the driver did not overtake that cyclist, he/she would have overtaken other cyclists. It is not as though they are a rarity.
In the absence of resources and scope for dedicated cycle lanes (which we have to accept as the rule rather than the exception) awareness with publicity and publicised sanctions for the idiots (including the idiots cyclists who, as someone will inevitably post, travel three abreast, go through stop signs et cetera) seems to be the only answer.
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November 18, 2010 9:19am
Fletch

lol, it seems like if someone forgets to close a tag it goes global.
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November 18, 2010 9:20am
Sonny Blount

It is nothing to do with anybodies fault. Neither the driver nor the cyclist wanted the door opened in their path, it is do with the system and parameters both operate within.

I expect that car doors are opened into oncoming cyclists at a rate 100 times that of oncoming cars. This is not due to the difference in respect levels, it is do with cyclists being far less visible than other oncoming vehicles. No driver wants this to happen but it will inevitably continue to occur at a particular rate given the same physical circumstances continuing.
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November 18, 2010 9:22am
Pete George

Another idea for Christmas, if you want to give something that lasts:

I asked Grandpa what he wanted for Christmas and he said “Nothing”.
I said “But that’s what I got you last year”.
He replied “And I’m still using it”.
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November 18, 2010 9:23am
MT_Tinman

You won’t stop halfwits cutting corners and causing accidents as many car drivers as well as cyclists have found out.

As a professional driver doing approx 1,000 Km per week of town driving IN A CAR I avoid other cars doing stupid things at least ten times a week.

Driving standards are atrocious but thinking while driving gets people from A to B undamaged most of the time.

Thinking (of people other than themselves) while cycling would also help.

You can reduce cycle accidents though by licensing cyclists, making it compulsory that cyclists wear reflective clothing, have appropriate lighting and reflectors (side as well as front and rear), obey ALL the road rules at ALL times and ride considerately at ALL times.

Proper policing of cyclists must also be introduced – I watched a cop happily watch multiple cycle scum ride through a red light and past cars stopped at a pedestrian crossing (failing to give way to people on that crossing) the other day only to pull up a poor bastard doing none of these but not wearing a helmet.
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November 18, 2010 9:29am
dime

If the government reacts at all over a few cycling deaths, ill be fuckin dirty!

Imagine if labour were still in power. They would be all over it. Im scared to think what “initiatives” they would come up with.

Maybe ban any car that was wider than a corolla? (unless you were a govt official or high ranking member of any left wing organisation”.
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November 18, 2010 9:29am
kaya

wreck 1080

I do find it strange, how in one of the worst depressions since world war 2, the banks are making huge profits.

Even the banks in the UK, where the economy is even worse.

Where do you think all the QE money goes to? We know it didn’t stimulate the economy which is why Bernanke is doing QE2. It sloshes around inside the financial sector paying massive salaries and bonuses before eventually leaking out and fucking up the rest of us with currency fluctuations, inflation/deflation.

“Bank looks at doubling salaries”

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10688334

There will be consequences for what has happened in the last couple of years and it won’t be pretty.
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November 18, 2010 9:30am
Sonny Blount

Sorry mjwilknz, I completely misjudged your comments. I thought for the moment that you may have been a road-rage motorist who would have cyclists confined to suburban parks.
Most of my recent cycling has been undertaken in Central Otago on rural roads. A few years back, cyclists were few and far between. Motorist displayed homicidal ignorance towards cycling. The growth in cycling in the area has been exponential. There is also much greater awareness among motorists. On the other hand, there are still be ignorant idiots who seem to think that they own the roads and everything else in front of them must give way. Their mindset is as follows:
1. It is compulsory to overtake a cyclist without slowing down and without crossing the white line
2. If at all possible, lean on the horn as hard as possible just as you are about to overtake
3. You get 10 points if you are able to overtake a cyclist in a stretch of road where there is a double yellow line, particularly if there is a truck coming the other way
4. You do not have to stop at stop signs if the only vehicle insight is a cyclist.
5. If you can do all of these in a truck or bus then you are a hero.

While people with this mindset are becoming outnumbered, as we have seen it does not take many to create an impact. Opening car doors in the face of a cyclist is just so basic. A cyclist was killed in Dunedin not long ago because of this and the driver was prosecuted. The risk is not unknown and mtorists must be aware of it. I would be interested to find out whether the driver in this particular case in Auckland had just parked the car in which case there is a reasonable possibility that the car actually overtook the cyclist some distance back down the road. If the driver did not overtake that cyclist, he/she would have overtaken other cyclists. It is not as though they are a rarity.
In the absence of resources and scope for dedicated cycle lanes (which we have to accept as the rule rather than the exception) awareness with publicity and publicised sanctions for the idiots (including the idiots cyclists who, as someone will inevitably post, travel three abreast, go through stop signs et cetera) seems to be the only answer.

I see you are employing the strategy recently used by the Democrats in the US of insulting those whose attention you need to shift.

Good luck with that.
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November 18, 2010 9:35am
Nookin

Sonny
Do you cuddle drunk drivers?
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November 18, 2010 9:37am
jackp

There can have laws to protect cyclists, but that won’t save your life. I use to ride frequently in the states and one time someone did open their door in front of me. I just went into his door, I knew I wasn’t going out in the lane. It’s a split second action, you really don’t have time to think. IF you ride a bike, you have to expect these things to happen, so, I would mentally imagine someone opening their door before it happend. It worked. Lucky the car was a beetle, and the door bent about 80 degrees forward. The owner was upset but he knew he was in the wrong. You have to ride defensively. Really sorry about the bike rider, though. That must have been horrible! Another thing, if I was riding along parked cars, I would keep the speed down.
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November 18, 2010 9:38am
Sonny Blount

Sonny
Do you cuddle drunk drivers?

So now motorists invloved in crashes with cyclists are equivalent to drunk drivers.

Smart play.
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November 18, 2010 9:43am
Nookin

Jackp
Good points. So much revolves around awareness of the risks. To expand on my response to Sonny. I am not going to abuse anyone who is not aware of the risks or who slip up. Everyone makes mistakes. I am going to front up to those who are aware but will take them because they think that they are more important and its only a cyclist anyway. You don’t get anywhere reasoning with them.
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November 18, 2010 9:45am
big bruv

Dime

It is worse than that, imagine if after the next election the racist party hold the balance of power and decide to go with Labour and the Greens.

There will be a Green minister of transport and as such cyclists will be the new kings of the road, anybody who is involved in an accident with a cyclist will be immediately sent to prison for at least five years.

Not as you would think for killing the cyclist (the Greens don’t care about humans and consider there are too many of us anyway) but for the far worse crime of driving a private motor vehicle on a public road.
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November 18, 2010 9:45am
mjwilknz

Nookin, sweet as, it’s exceptionally easy to misjudge people’s tone talking online. Done it plenty of times, myself. However, I remain very sceptical that the “publicity and publicised sanctions” to which you refer will actually improve things. If respect is the issue, and it seems to me it is, then how are we, NZ cyclists, doing to get more respect, if we don’t give more, ourselves?
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November 18, 2010 9:46am
grumpyoldhori

MikeNZ Hmm, you seem lacking in history, no surprise seeing you are a visitor from septicland.
You yanks took great pride in sending a shipload of Jews back to Germany knowing they would be gassed, still working that guilt out are you not ?

Harper, a piece of scum who said nothing to the yanks after Canadian troops were bombed by a idiotic yank pilot in Afghanistan, no wonder a fair few number of Canadian troops believe Harper puts both the yanks and Israelis before them.

So when are you going back to join up ? why should Aussies and Kiwis do your fighting for you ?
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November 18, 2010 9:48am
Sonny Blount

Safety systems don’t working by demanding more and more alertness from people, they work by approaching infallibility.

The main thing that prevents them from being infallible is cost.

The only reason we have the current infrastructure use by cars and cyclists is cost.

The only way to save cyclists lives is to accept the cost of taking a step along the way to infallibility and seperate vehicles of disparate size, visibility, and power in the same way cars and pedestrians do not share the same channel. And seperation of non-mixable traffic types hasn’t fully occured until there are barriers between them.
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November 18, 2010 9:50am
Sonny Blount

Nookin, sweet as, it’s exceptionally easy to misjudge people’s tone talking online. Done it plenty of times, myself. However, I remain very sceptical that the “publicity and publicised sanctions” to which you refer will actually improve things. If respect is the issue, and it seems to me it is, then how are we, NZ cyclists, doing to get more respect, if we don’t give more, ourselves?

Respect is not the issue.

Physics is.
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November 18, 2010 9:51am
Chthoniid

@mjwilknz (478)

Another cyclist killed on NZ’s roads! Is anyone else fearful of the calls that will come for the Government to DO SOMETHING? Why is that so often NZers’ first reaction? Especially given how controversial cycling is in the eyes of many drivers, why isn’t anyone calling for the cyclists themselves to DO SOMETHING?

Like what? Obey the road rules?

I’ve already had several near misses this week in Auckland while scrupulously following the road rules. I’ve been hit and knocked off my bike while scrupulously following the road rules.

Accident statistics continue to show that the majority of cycling injuries and deaths are the fault of motorists. People are getting killed and maimed and in most cases, it’s not the fault of the cyclists. That I imagined, should be an issue of concern, & not a rational defense of motorist’s propensities to injure other road users.
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November 18, 2010 9:53am
Nookin

No, Sonny. Drunk drivers are drivers who deliberately put themselves in a position where they can kill people and decide that they are prepared to take the risks and don’t seem to think that other road users have any say in the matter. Motorists who refuse to make any allowances for cyclists because they are bigger better and faster and much more important (and frequently have smaller penises for which they have to make up by driving more powerful cars) are in exactly the same category. These are the ones I am aiming at. I modify my driving around cyclists because I can ride in the cyclists shoes and know what he is up against. Motorists who are not cyclists do not have the same appreciation but as I point out in my earlier post, are learning with awareness. Others don’t give a fuck. They are the problem and I see them in exactly the same category as drunk drivers.
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November 18, 2010 9:56am
Pita

Two politicians are having lunch together.

All of a sudden one stands up and shouts, “You’re lying.”

The other replied, “I know, but just hear me out.”

H/T Theo spark
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November 18, 2010 9:57am
mjwilknz

Chthoniid, you may well be a rule abiding bike rider, but have you ever seen red lights run by other cyclists? While cyclists themselves are not at fault in many accidents, that does not mean they are above the pale when it comes to respect between cyclists and drivers.
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November 18, 2010 9:58am
Sonny Blount

Chthoniid,

Cars and cyclists don’t mix, we can’t change that.

The average IQ of the population is 105, you have to organise your infrastructure to recognise this fact. We need to take a McDonalds like approach and make it idiot proof, because it is unlikely we will be able to change the IQ of the population or dramatically change the percentage of the population we allow to drive (although I think far more rigourous licensing to be a good step including teaching driving at high school)

We have pretended for some time that cycling is cheaper than it really is, up till this point we have generally got away with it, at the cost of quite a few lives but all transportation has a death rate.

If we want to increase the amount of cycling or reduce the death rate we have to invest in the appropriate infrastructure, the political difficulty lies in how to fund it.
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November 18, 2010 10:00am
mjwilknz

Nookin, calm down, mate! If, as I suggest, respect is the issue, you are in no way helping the respect for cyclists of Sonny or any other driver who reads your comment.
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November 18, 2010 10:01am
James Stephenson

it is do with cyclists being far less visible than other oncoming vehicles.

No, it because the brain often does not see what’s it’s not expecting (remember the invisible gorilla). Motorcyclists are well aware of it too, they call it SMIDSY (“Sorry Mate I Didn’t See You”)
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November 18, 2010 10:02am
Sonny Blount

No, Sonny. Drunk drivers are drivers who deliberately put themselves in a position where they can kill people and decide that they are prepared to take the risks and don’t seem to think that other road users have any say in the matter. Motorists who refuse to make any allowances for cyclists because they are bigger better and faster and much more important (and frequently have smaller penises for which they have to make up by driving more powerful cars) are in exactly the same category. These are the ones I am aiming at. I modify my driving around cyclists because I can ride in the cyclists shoes and know what he is up against. Motorists who are not cyclists do not have the same appreciation but as I point out in my earlier post, are learning with awareness. Others don’t give a fuck. They are the problem and I see them in exactly the same category as drunk drivers.

Nookin, you need to grow up then.
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November 18, 2010 10:02am
Scumsucker

Cyclists are wankers and deserve to get killed.

They don’t have the brain power to figure out that the bicycle is inconsistent with modern transportation.

Tricycles, skateboards, horse and trap and elephants are also modes of transport inconsistent with the motor vehicle.

I hate cyclists. Die, scum, die.
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November 18, 2010 10:02am
dime

nookin – there are some arrogant cyclists out there. Im surprised more of them dont get taken out.

if i had to stereotype, id call you and your ilk a bunch of smug bastards.

Just the other day i thought to myself “dime, if you had diplomatic immunity, you could take this smug bastard out”. but i dont, so i let him go on for another day… in his offensive bike shorts and sense of self importance.
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November 18, 2010 10:04am
Repton

That would be the middle of the traffic lane. And Repton would be patiently driving behind, not getting at all angry.

Nah, I’ll be the guy on the bike 🙂

I’m happy riding close to parked cars if I’m going uphill, because I’m not going fast and stopping is easy. But the faster I go, the more I move to the middle of my lane..
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November 18, 2010 10:04am
mjwilknz

Sonny, I live in Wgtn. In many places around here, there is quite simply no more room to put cycle lanes in! The appropriate infrastructure you want just isn’t going to be built around here at any time in the foreseeable future!
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November 18, 2010 10:05am
James Stephenson

Motorists who are not cyclists do not have the same appreciation

Which is a bloody worry when you get carved up by a Legacy Wagon with bike racks on the roof, I can tell you.
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November 18, 2010 10:05am
mjwilknz

Nookin and Sonny, if respect isn’t the issue then why do Scumsucker and dime comment so?
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November 18, 2010 10:07am
adze

There are plenty of bad habits among cyclists too. It’s harder to blame them though because they are generally not in a “powerful” position (a bit like criticising criminal elements in the margins of society).

I’ve noticed in Wellington there’s an increasing habit of some cyclists riding on busy footpaths (usually to avoid using a one-way road) and expecting pedestrians to get out of their way. Other common sins include failing to stop at stop signs and traffic lights, riding 6 feet out from the curb on narrow suburban streets (particularly frustrating in Wellington where roads tend to be narrow and winding). They also take their own lives into their hands when undertaking buses and then howl when they get in a pinch between traffic.

I always check the rear view mirror before opening my car door though.
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November 18, 2010 10:09am
RightNow

I’m not a cyclist but I have the presence of mind to be aware of what’s around me when driving and anticipate when things might get tight.

Failure to accommodate for cyclists (and pedestrians, bad drivers etc) is simply bad driving skills. You may not like them being on the road but they have a legal right to be there.

edit: I don’t see the need for any law changes
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November 18, 2010 10:10am
James Stephenson

Just the other day i thought to myself “dime, if you had diplomatic immunity, you could take this smug bastard out”. but i dont, so i let him go on for another day… in his offensive bike shorts and sense of self importance.

I carry my multitool in a sock in my back pocket (stops it jingling against my house keys) one day I’m sure I will succumb to temptation and smash some idiot cage-drivers window.
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November 18, 2010 10:10am
Jack5

Help please, statistics wizards!

HJ at 8.58pm talking about China quoted John Key as saying:

…on the basis that they’ve got 1.3 billion people to feed in years to come, and all the economics tell you they do not have enough arable land to feed their people as their population not only rises, but their wealth rises and they demand higher prices…

Is this true? China is the world’s fourth biggest country. According to the CIA World Factbook it has about 142,610,840 hectares of arable land, and a population of 1.133 billion. This equates to about 7.5 arable hectares per person.

Mountainous New Zealand, has 1,483,113 hectares of arable land and a popoulation (Stats NZ) of 4,387,653. This equates to 0.34ha of arable land per NZer.

We have a higher proportion of permanent grassland, and I’m not sure whether arable and grass figures are separate. I imagine grassland provides less food in calories per hectare than arable land.

If my sums are correct, you have to wonder whether the constant claim that CHina can’t feed itself is a myth. The country is nearly as big as the United States, after all.

I would be interested if someone far more adept at figures than me looked worked through the figures.

China’s farming potential should soar as small holders move to the cities and become factory workers. This is what happened to other countries in earlier industrial revolutions. Bigger holdings allow far higher productivity and total output.

Are we in NZ just perpetuating a myth that is holding us back when we repeat: the world is running out of food so we can’t go wrong as a farm-based exporter? I suspect it’s a myth like another used by some investors over the years. This is, you can’t go wrong buying shares related to food production or food manufacturing or food distribution, because people have always got to eat, even in the worst of times.

Wrightson and Allied Farmers and Silver Fern are just the latest of many examples that show the flaws in this investment strategy.
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November 18, 2010 10:17am
Sonny Blount

Sonny, I live in Wgtn. In many places around here, there is quite simply no more room to put cycle lanes in! The appropriate infrastructure you want just isn’t going to be built around here at any time in the foreseeable future!

Thats ok. Cycling isn’t going to change then and people will keep dying on bikes at a rate 4 times that of cars.

When people want to change that they can at least make a start, best place is with all new roading design.

Other options, are building more (hopefully cheap) carpark buildings, removing roadside parking around the city and using it as cycle lanes.

Or build a cycling subway so that it is actually possible to commute on them in wet weather.
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November 18, 2010 10:21am
mjwilknz

James, if, like me, you’re a cyclist, don’t you think respect works in both ways? If you go ’round being tempted to smash drivers’ windows, does that also mean you run red lights and otherwise break traffic rules? If you want more respect, how much respect do you show to drivers, yourself?
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November 18, 2010 10:22am
Jack5

Whoops! I suspect I put the wrong figures on the bottom line! A switch would make it, I think about 0.11 ha of arable land per Chinese person (or 8.3 Chinese to every arable hectare) compared with three NZers per arable hectare, but then we depend on horticulture and agricultural exports.
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November 18, 2010 10:23am
Nookin

Respect is an issue. Don’t know about Dime but I think scumsucker is having one of those days. I hear that Anusol may solve much of his problem.
Don’t mean to come across over the top but its difficult not to get angry when 5 cyclists have died in 5 days and you know how avaoidable it is.
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November 18, 2010 10:23am
Sonny Blount

Nookin and Sonny, if respect isn’t the issue then why do Scumsucker and dime comment so?

Because as I said, the average population of the country is about 105.

Go down to KFC and Winz and explain and teach them how you would like them to drive, and don’t give up on them either, these people have our lives in their hands.
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November 18, 2010 10:23am
Sonny Blount

Don’t mean to come across over the top but its difficult not to get angry when 5 cyclists have died in 5 days and you know how avaoidable it is.

It is not avoidable without a fundamental change to infrastructure Nookin. These statistics have been continuing for decades and they are not about to change just because people would really, really like them to.
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November 18, 2010 10:25am
mjwilknz

Sonny, cyclists don’t have to keep dying, that’s my point! What I believe will best help isn’t better infrastructure, but simply more respect between cyclists and drivers! I believe respect definitely works in both directions, as per my recent comment to James.
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November 18, 2010 10:27am
kowtow

Re cycling.

Are there any Canadians out there? I have driven in Vancouver BC and found motorists treated cyclists with respect.Slow down overtaking,lots of room etc
I was told it was cos motorists who whacked cyclists got their arses sued off them.
Mind you I have found Canadians generally polite and respectful of others,at junctions ,shopping aisles etc.
So is the answer a combination of draconian punishment (to encourage the others) and plain old good manners?

As an aside I find drivers in NZ generally do not check behind before opening doors or even wait for traffic to pass when entering their car and just blithly open their doors regardless ,how thick is that?
I reckon we don’t need new laws ,just enforce the ones we have. Better driver education before licensing is also an issue as driving appears to be treated as a right rather than a licensed activity which is what it is .
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November 18, 2010 10:31am
Sonny Blount

Sonny, cyclists don’t have to keep dying, that’s my point! What I believe will best help isn’t better infrastructure, but simply more respect between cyclists and drivers! I believe respect definitely works in both directions, as per my recent comment to James.

I respect lives on the road also, which is why I pay to have my car warranted, why I purchase a car with ABS brakes, air bags, and rigourous impact testing as part of the design. This is why I pay taxes through petrol and rates, so that systems such as traffic lights, reflective indicators, and tar seal can be installed, because even though we all respect each other, physics seems not to share that respect at times.
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November 18, 2010 10:35am
mjwilknz

Nookin, I agree it is easy to get angry. Don’t you reckon it’s better, however, if we rise above that anger and instead question why we (and others) feel the need to get angry? Surely, it’s the least we can do for those who lost their lives, tragically.

Sonny presents one alternative to wondering why we get angry. That is, we put our heads in the sand and wait for Harry Potter to come along and magic us some more infrastructure. 😉
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November 18, 2010 10:36am
Sonny Blount

Several years ago, I was riding my bike in the wet and I approached an intersection too rapidly. My brakes failed and I entered the intersection in a red light hitting a car and flying over the bonnet. I was ok, but the driver was terrified and had done nothing wrong, I had to spend more time consoling the driver than they did me.

If a driver is operating according to best practise they should not be subject to the possibility of having someones blood on their hands which is a terrible feeling for all drivers when they see cyclists on the road.
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November 18, 2010 10:39am
Sonny Blount

Sonny presents one alternative to wondering why we get angry. That is, we put our heads in the sand and wait for Harry Potter to come along and magic us some more infrastructure. 😉

Pockets a little shallow there mjwilknz?

Has your cost benefit analysis of cycling not included paying for appropriate safety measures?
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November 18, 2010 10:41am
mjwilknz

Kowtow, I’ve ridden in Europe and noticed a similar amount of respect between cyclists and drivers there. One good question you could help me with, does Canada have laws requiring cyclists to wear helmets? In NZ, I believe such laws have done tremendous damage for cyclist-driver respect mainly by severely reducing the number of cyclists on our roads.
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November 18, 2010 10:42am
Sonny Blount

Are there any Canadians out there? I have driven in Vancouver BC and found motorists treated cyclists with respect.Slow down overtaking,lots of room etc
I was told it was cos motorists who whacked cyclists got their arses sued off them.
Mind you I have found Canadians generally polite and respectful of others,at junctions ,shopping aisles etc.
So is the answer a combination of draconian punishment (to encourage the others) and plain old good manners?

As an aside I find drivers in NZ generally do not check behind before opening doors or even wait for traffic to pass when entering their car and just blithly open their doors regardless ,how thick is that?
I reckon we don’t need new laws ,just enforce the ones we have. Better driver education before licensing is also an issue as driving appears to be treated as a right rather than a licensed activity which is what it is .

These statistics include Canadians, they’re still dying:

Deaths per billion passenger-journeys
Bus 4.3
Rail 20
Van 20
Car 40
Foot 40
Water 90
Air 117
Bicycle 170
Motorcycle 1640
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November 18, 2010 10:44am
James Stephenson

mjwilknz – yep, I’m a cyclist, motorcyclist and cage-driver and I treat all other road users with respect up until the point when they demonstrate that they’re unworthy of it by behaving like a complete Hodgson.

I’ve been known to run red lights, exceed speed limits, cross centrelines, “lane-split”, not come to a compete stop at a “STOP” sign, use “sign language” to communicate my feelings to other road users, “brake test” vehicles tailgating me and that’s certainly not a complete list.

Despite being tempted I’ve never actually smashed anyone’s window, although I’ve (accidentally) removed a wingmirror with a MTB bar-end when a cage left me too little space.
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November 18, 2010 10:45am
Sonny Blount

One thing about statistics on cycling, is I expect the average IQ for cyclists to be higher than that of all motorists.

If cycling was to grow and become a transport solution rather than a recreational activity, you would probably have a less intelligent cycling population in these statistics.

Although clearly the current cycling population has a higher risk appetite than normal or they wouldn’t be doing it.
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November 18, 2010 10:47am
mjwilknz

Sonny, are my pockets a little shallow? Quite possibly, but if they are, it would be because I am thinking of how much else I have to buy. Who do you want to pay for these magical cycle lanes everywhere? From general taxation? Won’t all the drivers get slightly annoyed when they see their taxes going up just to pay for things they never actually use? Maybe you want cyclists to pay for it. Well hello, you’ve just killed the whole sport of cycling! Congratulations!

So, in reply to your question, are my pockets a little shallow, I’d say, “yes, aren’t yours?”
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November 18, 2010 10:49am
MikeNZ

Last month $900 is what my wife’s door and mirror cost us from someone opening their car door as I drove past.
Thank God we weren’t cycling past.

We all own bikes but don’t use them regularly. The kids just don’t think it’s safe.
But then EVERY time I drive into Wellington, I see cyclists run red robots and stop signs and change lanes without signaling.
So it’s half a dozen of one and six of another.

at least the cars don’t jump red robots or stop signs like the cyclists do 🙂
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November 18, 2010 10:52am
mjwilknz

James, don’t you think that’s bad, though? If you want drivers to treat you with more respect, why aren’t you showing respect for drivers (at least by following their road rules)? I think cyclists have a responsibility not to run red lights when cars are waiting! (There will of course always be some red lights that get run, simply by virtue of the fact that not many lights actually sense bikes).
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November 18, 2010 10:54am
Sonny Blount

Sonny, are my pockets a little shallow? Quite possibly, but if they are, it would be because I am thinking of how much else I have to buy. Who do you want to pay for these magical cycle lanes everywhere? From general taxation? Won’t all the drivers get slightly annoyed when they see their taxes going up just to pay for things they never actually use? Maybe you want cyclists to pay for it. Well hello, you’ve just killed the whole sport of cycling! Congratulations!

So, in reply to your question, are my pockets a little shallow, I’d say, “yes, aren’t yours?”

Are you a socialist, do you expect me to pay for you?

If cycling dies then so be it, its your choice to pay for it or not.

We have managed to build roading, train, shipping, and flying infrastructure, we can do cycling. But the reality is people only really want to cycle because it is so cheap, when you do it properly, commuting approaches what cars provide.

I would start by reducing the budget for trains to zero and spend it all on cycling, of course cyclists would in part have to pay for this. If increased cycling takes the load of other areas, buses and taxis can do what trains currently do.

I used to cycle in Chrictchurch and P North because I felt safe enough on the infrastructure there. In Wellington no way would I cycle to commute, its not safe.
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November 18, 2010 11:00am
James Stephenson

mjwilknz – I don’t think about car drivers’ jealousy and hurt feelings at all when I jump a red light. I’ll only do it at an intersection where I don’t have to cross another vehicle’s path (turning left, or straight through when there’s a road joining from the right) and I’m only taking notice of whether I’ll still need to stop for pedestrians to cross and if there’s moving traffice that’s still a possible danger to me.
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November 18, 2010 11:05am
Nookin

Another one
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4356915/Schoolgirl-hit-amid-cycle-death-spate
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November 18, 2010 11:12am
mjwilknz

Sonny, I asked you, if a lack of infrastructure is the problem, who do you want to pay for it? You responded by calling me a socialist, but indicating that you still thought Government should pay for it. I retort that, since you don’t want cyclists to pay for infrastructure that only they’ll use, you must be a bigger socialist than I.
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November 18, 2010 11:12am
Sonny Blount

mjwilknz – I don’t think about car drivers’ jealousy and hurt feelings at all when I jump a red light. I’ll only do it at an intersection where I don’t have to cross another vehicle’s path (turning left, or straight through when there’s a road joining from the right) and I’m only taking notice of whether I’ll still need to stop for pedestrians to cross and if there’s moving traffice that’s still a possible danger to me.

So road rules are optional depending on your discretion?

I personally am not bothered by cyclists running red lights, just when they turn around and scream about supposed road rules which they would like observed in their favour (some of which don’t exist).
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November 18, 2010 11:12am
Sonny Blount

Sonny, I asked you, if a lack of infrastructure is the problem, who do you want to pay for it? You responded by calling me a socialist, but indicating that you still thought Government should pay for it. I retort that, since you don’t want cyclists to pay for infrastructure that only they’ll use, you must be a bigger socialist than I.

I would like to take back my earlier comment about cyclists perhaps having higher IQs than the motoring population.
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November 18, 2010 11:14am
mjwilknz

James, thanks for your honesty. As I cyclist, I used to behave similarly until I thought about the whole respect thing more. Don’t you think we need to reach a higher standard, though? If we as NZ’s cyclists want more respect, don’t we owe it to each other to demand we each behave respectfully to NZ’s road rules – i.e. not run red lights when cars are waiting?
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November 18, 2010 11:16am
RightNow

The UK parliament in session is even more entertaining (at least just now) than our parliament
http://www.c-span.org/Watch/C-SPAN3.aspx
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November 18, 2010 11:18am
Sonny Blount

I want cyclists to pay for it, but I’m not holding my breath that they actually would as there seems to be a freeloading mentality amongst them.

I don’t think cyclists will want to pay the cost for a proper infrastructure as part of the attraction for them is the false idea they have of the current cost.

I expect to pay for cycling infrastructure by vehicle licensing and warrant of fitness checks, including cycle road user costs, and policing of this infrastructure by cycle police with speed cameras and ticketing for any unwarranted bikes or cyclists not obeying regulations.

I suggest using the train budget as this is currently being distributed in a socialist fashion where the user does not pay the full cost and so therefore spending some of it on cycling is an improvement on the current distribution, although a full user pays model would be the end goal.
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November 18, 2010 11:23am
mjwilknz

Nookin, thanks for the heads up on this latest incident! Screams and yells for more Government controls will only increase. This does not bode well for cyclist-driver respect.
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November 18, 2010 11:23am
Pete George

I nearly clobbered a cyclist at lights yesterday. I was waiting at a red and a cyclist came up and stopped beside me. The cyclist took off just before it changed green and wobbled over partly in front of me, I started on the green but had to stop again to avoid wobbling the cyclist a bit more. That sort of thing can be very annoying.

Another cyclist trick is to ride up the inside, onto the footpath and then expect you to stop for them at a pedestrian crossing, often still on their bike.

But there are plenty of stupid things automobubblists do too, especially those like a couple above who seem to think they should rule the road.

As Sonny says, no matter how many laws we have, no matter how much safety gear we are made to use, no matter how much they test for licenses, we can’t eliminate stupidity, we can’t eliminate inattention, we can’t eliminate arrogance, and we can’t prevent all accidents. We can try to make things a bit better, but it’s easy to forget that life is a risk – and for most of us it’s less risky than it’s been for anyone else in the past.
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November 18, 2010 11:23am
James Stephenson

So road rules are optional depending on your discretion?

Pretty much…for the guidance of wise men and all that. I’m constantly thinking about the risks I’m running and the risks to any other road users and if I judge that breaking the rule doesn’t increase either then why not?
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November 18, 2010 11:26am
Manolo

Like lambs to the slaughterhouse. The Democrats have re-elected the infamous architect of their last electoral disaster: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/45285.html
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November 18, 2010 11:29am
Sonny Blount

I am pretty similar James. Its just unfortunate that the cops aren’t.
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November 18, 2010 11:29am
mjwilknz

Pete George, I agree, that pedestrian crossing stuff sounds jolly annoying!

I also agree that there is only so much licenses and rules and safety gear can do. There is one thing that I believe could help, though, and that is, more respect between drivers and cyclists!

Finally, I agree that things are much better now than they’ve been for anyone in the past. That does not mean, however, that we can’t make them better, still!
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November 18, 2010 11:31am
Sonny Blount

Like lambs to the slaughterhouse. The Democrats have re-elected the infamous architect of their last electoral disaster: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1110/45285.html

The whole reaction of the left to these mid term elections, reminds me of the oft mentioned pyschologists opinion that left wingers closely resemble adolescents.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4415356/tough-day-for-the-president/#/v/4420069/grapevine-from-the-left/?playlist_id=86927
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November 18, 2010 11:32am
James Stephenson

Sonny – referring back to the Bader quotation, I firmly believe that the kind of blind obedience of the rules that the Police and Andy Knackersinasack wish for actually creates drivers who are fools.
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November 18, 2010 11:35am
Sonny Blount

I also agree that there is only so much licenses and rules and safety gear can do. There is one thing that I believe could help, though, and that is, more respect between drivers and cyclists!

I am going to use that next time OSH comes around to inspect my workplace.

‘How do you keep your forklifts and diggers from hitting people?’

‘We use employee-machinery respect sir!’

I’m sure that will wash.

Do you think our safety inspectors would allow any private firm to operate in the fashion our roads do? If they saw cyclists riding around the yard with machinery operating in it or down aisles used by forklifts they would be shut down.
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November 18, 2010 11:38am
Pete George

OSH to police the roads then?

There is one thing that I believe could help, though, and that is, more respect between drivers and cyclists!

More respect is something that could help a lot of people in a lot of situations (except for workplace safety of course), but it’s not possible to legislate to enforce that either.
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November 18, 2010 12:06pm
mjwilknz

Pete George, I agree, respect is not something that comes about through legislation. It is a pity that the the Cycling Advocates Network calls for new legislation so strongly, though.
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November 18, 2010 12:26pm

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