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November 18, 2010 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 18 November 2010

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General Debate

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Kris K

Good grief!!!

With everything that’s going on in the world and (most of) you guys flood GD with all this talk about cyclists – unbelievable! I mean there must be 80 odd comments on this one topic!

And I wonder why I haven’t been too bothered about commenting (or reading) here for the last ten or so days. Thanks guys, you’ve just answered my question for me.

If you’d like some more INTELLIGENT discussion I suggest you have a look at Crusader Rabbit. Kiwiblog has lost the plot!
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November 18, 2010 12:29pm
Pete George

No Kris, Kiwiblog has lost the clots, apart from the odd one or two hopping back for a grizzle.

You must admit it’s a bit of a cheek coming here and telling people to go and read CR – when half of what is discussed there is how bad Kiwiblog is and how bad DPF is.
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November 18, 2010 12:34pm
Sonny Blount

Yeah, lets talk Religion again Kris!

So what’s new with that?
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November 18, 2010 12:35pm
Pete George

Some INTELLIGENT discussion Kris is referring to: http://falfn.com/CrusaderRabbit/?p=3120#comment-8438
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November 18, 2010 12:41pm
James Stephenson

Good grief!!!

100+ post and nobody’s resorted to insulting another poster yet!
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November 18, 2010 12:48pm
big bruv

Ha ha…Redbaiters new best mate Kris K reckons that Crusader Wingnut is the home of intelligent discussion?

If any blog deserves to be labelled the sewer then it is Crusader Wingnut, a collection of small minded, religious bigoted, middle aged men who all have sexual fantasises about Sarah Palin.

One of the fools is predicting that Sarah (I can see Russia from my house) Palin will be president in 2012.
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November 18, 2010 12:53pm
Kris K

Pete & Sonny,

You guys obviously deserve each other – perhaps you can mount your uni-cycles and ride off into the sunset whilst holding hands and talking about the latest uni-cycle developments.

And Sonny, I actually made a comment earlier (8:47 am) entitled “More Climate Change & ETS Fraud” (and not on religion), but obviously discussing cyclists/cycling ad nauseum is higher on your priority list. I’ll leave you guys to play with your bikes …
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November 18, 2010 12:55pm
Kris K

… and another useful idiot in the form of Big Bruv rides around the corner on his tricycle. His idea of “intelligent discussion” probably consists of how hydro-dynamic his latest bowel movement was.
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November 18, 2010 12:59pm
big bruv

Ah yes…nothing like the tolerance shown by Crusader wingnuts resident religious bigot.

Come on Kris, before you go give us a reminder of the evils of sodomy.
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November 18, 2010 1:08pm
James Stephenson

middle aged men who all have sexual fantasises about Sarah Palin

…and the problem with this is?
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November 18, 2010 1:11pm
big bruv

On another subject…..

Once again the tax payer is bailing out the rural sector, 25 million of our dollars goes to Kiwi fruit farmers.

Seems that the Nat’s no longer have any idea what personal responsibility means.
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November 18, 2010 1:12pm
big bruv

James

Nothing at all…..just as long as she did not speak 🙂
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November 18, 2010 1:13pm
Jimbob

You hit the nail on the head Kris K. GD lately is a real snooze.
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November 18, 2010 1:16pm
Pete George

Ok Jimbob, what can you offer to wake it up? Something interesting? Something provocative? Something enlightening?

Or would you rather hold hands in a circle and chant “we good, they bad!”? If so there are other blogs more appropriate.
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November 18, 2010 1:22pm
RightNow

KrisK – re climate and ETS fraud, check this out
http://www.gapminder.org/world/#$majorMode=chart$is;shi=t;ly=2003;lb=f;il=t;fs=11;al=30;stl=t;st=t;nsl=t;se=t$wst;tts=C$ts;sp=2.05870967741936;ti=1965$zpv;v=0$inc_x;mmid=XCOORDS;iid=phAwcNAVuyj1jiMAkmq1iMg;by=ind$inc_y;mmid=YCOORDS;iid=pyj6tScZqmEd1G8qI4GpZQg;by=ind$inc_s;uniValue=8.21;iid=phAwcNAVuyj0XOoBL_n5tAQ;by=ind$inc_c;uniValue=255;gid=CATID0;by=grp$map_x;scale=log;dataMin=295;dataMax=79210$map_y;scale=log;dataMin=0.0182;dataMax=28$map_s;sma=49;smi=2.65$cd;bd=0$inds=i159_t001965,,,,;i13_t001965,,,

It’s energy consumption per capita vs income per capita, 1965 – 2008
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November 18, 2010 1:25pm
MT_Tinman

Been out for two hours this morning working.

Three times in those two hours I’ve had to take measures to avoid bloody cyclists (all old enough to know better), including a halfwit who charged full speed from footpath to road right in front of me, a dick-head who decided that overtaking me on the left as I turned left (no cycle lane) was a good idea and a f$#@ing idiot who swerved into my path on a two lane city street.

Nookin (and others) your arguments don’t stack up.

ALL cyclist should be licensed!
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November 18, 2010 1:36pm
Offshore_Kiwi

Rightnow, did you have a comment to make about the graphs, or are we supposed to guess what they have to do with Emissions Trading Scams and climate fraud?
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November 18, 2010 2:00pm
RightNow

Offshore_Kiwi – since you’ve asked I’ll give you my comment, thanks 😉

Our wealth is directly correlated to our energy use. While gains can be made through efficiency, that’s a minor factor. Simply speaking, if we use less energy, we become poorer. To become richer necessitates us using more energy. If a country wishes to develop, it can only develop to the extent that it has energy, and no further.

The ETS which we have will only serve to make NZ poorer since it makes energy more expensive.
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November 18, 2010 2:09pm
Offshore_Kiwi

A grand hypothesis. I wasn’t sure if you were trying to say rich people use more and therefore we need to use more to get richer, or making some backhanded greenie comment about the rich in the west using more than their share.

The graph clearly illustrates that we need to use more, to make more. It also suggests we should be digging the black gold out of the ground just as fast as our little mechanical shovels can move.

Thanks for clearing that up.
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November 18, 2010 2:16pm
RightNow

All good, it goes to show the idea of a ‘Green economy’ is an oxymoron.
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November 18, 2010 2:19pm
Kris K

RightNow 1:25 pm,

Thanks, RN.
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November 18, 2010 2:24pm
kowtow

mjwilknz;
I believe helmets compulsory in BC. See the following site you might find useful

http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1096.html

My question was around civil suits against motorists leading to greater “respect” on the roads or is it self preservation from a suit? The law severly applied may actually work. No responses so far.
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November 18, 2010 2:26pm
Offshore_Kiwi

Rightnow, “…the idea of a ‘Green economy’ is an oxymoron.”

That’s as opposed to the Green Voter, which is the regular kind.
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November 18, 2010 2:26pm
dime

has the herald started paying people to run over cyclists yet?

if another moron on a bike gets hit today, i think a bunch of “journalists” will lose their lolly!

Anyway, bruv mentioned a govt hand out to kiwifruit farmers? what the hell? details please!
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November 18, 2010 2:35pm
Pete George

Ady Gil versus Shonan Maru No. 2 – hardly a surprise…

Report shares blame for whaling collision

An investigation has laid blame on both anti-whaling vessel Ady Gil and Japanese whaling ship Shonan Maru No. 2 for their Southern Ocean collision earlier this year.

“The collision appears to have resulted from a failure on the part of both masters and the crew of both vessels to appreciate and react appropriately to the potential for collision,” the report says.
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November 18, 2010 2:37pm
mjwilknz

Thanks for the link, Kowtow. I am by no means sure of the idea that helmet laws and respect for cyclists are related. My main reason for thinking they might be so is that cyclists in Australia, where there are similar helmet laws, face a similar lack of respect.

Yes, your civil suit question was a good one. Sorry I didn’t reply to it. I know little about it and wondered if others might reply. Do you know if drivers in European countries, who also show a much greater amount of respect for cyclists, face similar risks of suit?

Whatever the cause of disrespect for cyclists, though, I am very doubtful NZ can change its law on civil suits. Depending on how long you’ve lived here, you might well have come across ACC, the Accident Compensation Corporation. The legislation that created this Gov’t-owned provider of accident insurance also provided that all accidents were no fault. That is, no one could be sued for damages resulting from an accident in this country. Many NZers distrust lawyers and all the fuss that would come about from a more penal system. I don’t believe they’d give up on no-fault lightly, if ever!
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November 18, 2010 2:49pm
mjwilknz

Kowtow, I also wonder if you think Canadian society encourages greater politeness in traffic than does New Zealand society. A close NZ friend studying at UBC in Vancouver has previously told me about how Canadian drivers will often stop to let a person walking across the road go before them. I’ve never seen that kind of carry-on in this bit of the world. I have often thought about how similar Canadians and New Zealanders are. Perhaps they differ, in this respect. Would you care to comment?
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November 18, 2010 3:02pm
MikeNZ

Fletch

I just found google books, don’t know how an author is to make a living, putting in dhimmitude as a search word and got this page.
http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&tbs=bks%3A1%2Cbkv%3Ap%2Cvw%3Ag&q=dhimmitude&aq=1&aqi=g2&aql=&oq=+Dhimmi&gs_rfai=
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November 18, 2010 3:14pm
Inventory2

@ Pete George – indeed; an eminently sensible decision from Maritime NZ. Pete Bethune seems a bit more relaxed now too; I don’t think that Paul Watson would be good for ANYONE’S mental health!

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/11/no-one-is-innocent.html
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November 18, 2010 3:27pm
Akaroa

Re-Cyclists.

Hey! I was a keen and serious fitness cyclist. Until, that is, I rode over some unlighted rough new roadworks one winter’s morning, came off, and broke a hip. (My life’s soulmate now forbids any cycling on my part).

But. And its a big but – I reckon a lot of cyclists just ask for disaster to befall them. I live in an apartment looking down on two of Auckland’s busiest intersections. I am constantly amazed and disgusted to see cyclists – often without helmets – jumping red lights, riding across pedestrian crossings, ignoring the rights /convenence of other road users and pedestrians and generally behaving as if the rules of the road and the conventions of good road usage just don’t apply to them.

I feel sorry for the legiimatley careful and considerate serious recreational cyclist, a few of whom – surprise surprise – actually exist, because all these other rude, inconsiderate and risk-taking owboys achieve is to turn other road users off from any sympahy or consideration of cyclists as a class of road users.

The answer? Education, education, aducation (in good cycling practice) – and – enforcement, enforcement, enforcement (of traffic regulaions)
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November 18, 2010 3:30pm
Fletch

Mike, yeh lots of books. Google books only shows certain pages though, not the whole book. I’ve ready that Robert Spencer book Politically Incorrect Guide (PIG) to Islam – bought it as an ebook.
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November 18, 2010 3:39pm
big bruv

Dime

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/4356719/Kiwifruit-bug-could-cost-75m
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November 18, 2010 3:43pm
mjwilknz

Akaroa, now you’re talking. I completely agree that us cyclists often fail to bike with respect. Part of it is forced on us because bikes are not cars (for example, the majority of traffic lights, at least in Wgtn, don’t detect bikes), but much of it isn’t.

I’m not sure education is the answer – most cyclists are also drivers and know the road rules well, they just choose not to follow them – the answer is enforcement. By that, I don’t mean enforcement by cops – there are by no means enough around to properly enforce cycling rules – I mean enforcement by other cyclists. If one cyclist sees another running a red (when cars are waiting), he or she should feel a right, no, a duty, to say, don’t do that, it’s just not cool, man!
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November 18, 2010 3:44pm
MikeNZ

Fletch
you can use keywords and it will list a bunch of books and mark and open to the pages.

I put in Taqiyya, Jihad, Dhimmitude and it gave a interesting collection incl andrew bostom and other scholars, not just light books.
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November 18, 2010 3:50pm
kaya

The financial markets have become a law onto themselves. I’m starting to believe the extremists in the tin foil hat brigade who say that it’s the money men who run government. Presidents and PMs are just employees.

The most important rule of all: The banks handling IPOs – called underwriters – get to pick who gets the shares at the offering price. And critics say those shares often go to favoured clients or potential clients – that is, institutions that pay lots of trading commissions to the banks, not the small fry.

GM share float may top $21.6b, but small investors left out.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10688395

Bank looks at doubling salaries

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10688334
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November 18, 2010 4:01pm
nickb

rofl at the latest rent-a-crowd

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10688498

JK should have thrown a few, he would go up in my estimation!
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November 18, 2010 4:28pm
Inventory2

Labour must be worried if all that they have left is obnoxious thuggery …
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November 18, 2010 4:36pm
excusesofpuppets

a few idiots kill a number of cyclists and there are calls for the government to test me once every ten years? no thanks. Renewal costs enough without a $140 odd test thanks. i would “LOL” if a national government put this through.

I think it is awful that so many cyclists have died recently. I really do. But I worry that we are going to get thrown into one of those hype machines again that will bring in another nanny-state law.
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November 18, 2010 4:47pm
big bruv

Labour do not get involved in obnoxious thuggery, that accusation is false.

How do I know this……Len Richards told me so.
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November 18, 2010 4:58pm
big bruv

I wonder when DPF is going to give us an in depth post about the seabed and foreshore legislation?

I would love to see how he might try and defend the lies of Chris Finlayson.
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November 18, 2010 4:59pm
Inventory2

@ big bruv – I believe you! Did Megaphone Len tell you that before or after he gave you the bash?
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November 18, 2010 5:17pm
Jimbob

Pete George @ 1:22, GB seems to latch on to one topic and thrash it to death. Today was cycles. It’s ok if that’s what you guys and gals want to write about, knock yourself out.
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November 18, 2010 5:31pm
Pat

Stuff reports: Central Auckland streets have been closed because …. (wait for it!)…a building planned as a Rugby World Cup brothel has large cracks in it! (Bah do boom!)
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November 18, 2010 5:36pm
Steve

Varying sized cracks would have been better
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November 18, 2010 6:13pm
kaya

Just watched the news. Although I would have been one of the first to call Andrew Mears an idiot (the man who mistook the woman brushing her teeth for a deer), I have to admire the way he has fronted. No hiding behind lawyers, no pleading “not my fault”. Basically from day one he has put his hand up and said “I fucked up really badly, I will take whatver punishment comes”. Compare that to the Kahui family bullshit.
He did fuck up, he will be punished, but he would be one of the few in recent years to actually admit it and take their punishment. Apart from that he seems to be one of those people with a conscience who will have it to live with what he did for the rest of his life.
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November 18, 2010 6:16pm
joana

re kiwi fruit disaster…Is it correct that this govt got rid of 55 bio security staff?
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November 18, 2010 6:20pm
Pete George

Jimbob, new topics only come up if people post them. Diversity is good, but it needs input.

Kaya – yes, a lot of credit for him fronting up and taking responsibility like that.
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November 18, 2010 6:25pm
big bruv

IV2

Sadly I was not the recipient of Len’s “non” bash, I am not a violent man, I reserve acts of physical force to protecting my house, family and animals that are being abused (although in the last example it pays if you have a good lawyer on your side as well)

However, in Len’s case I think I could make an exception…
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November 18, 2010 6:29pm
big bruv

How long before Kris K comes here and tells us that the cracks in the Auckland brothel (the building, not the employees) is the work of God?
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November 18, 2010 6:31pm
Nookin

What Kaya says.
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November 18, 2010 6:32pm
dad4justice

“Kiwiblog has lost the plot!”

Amen to that brother. What a load of rot.
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November 18, 2010 6:37pm
Viking2

# joana (261) Says:
November 18th, 2010 at 6:20 pm

re kiwi fruit disaster…Is it correct that this govt got rid of 55 bio security staff?

Wouldn’t have made any difference. Rumour around su8ggests that untested pollen is the likely cause. That was the responsibility of the importer. Any grower/sprayer using cheap imported uncertified pollen was nuts.

Try another tack Joanna.
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November 18, 2010 6:42pm
Pete George

“Kiwiblog has lost the plot!”

Why don’t you try Crusader Rabbit then D4J, if you’re lucky Redbaiter won’t delete you as he does others. If you like the Mallard or iprent approach (with a right slant) where posters are gleefully wiped from the blog, or posts are sneakily deleted while they try to make an issue of you not responding, you should like it there.
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November 18, 2010 6:44pm
wreck1080

Now , this is pretty amazing.

The average weekly wage in Australia is now $1597.60nzd (1257.20aud)

The average weekly wage in NZ , appears to be around $780nzd.

Am I right? This is astounding, I’d never realised the gap was so large. The only thing I’m not sure about, is if the NZ figures are for fulltime work , or includes part time as well. Even so, the gap would still be very large.

(Aussie source: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6302.0?OpenDocument)

(NZ Source http://www.stats.govt.nz/browse_for_stats/work_income_and_spending/Income/NZIncomeSurvey_HOTPJun10qtr.aspx)
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November 18, 2010 6:44pm
Viking2

Higher short-term deficits, election-year economic upswing
10:20 AM Thursday Nov 18, 2010

New Zealand’s economic growth rate won’t hit the 3.2 per cent for the year to next March, predicted by the Treasury in the May Budget says Finance Minister Bill English.

Can anyone tell me when Treasury ever got anything and I mean anything at all right?
The fact that English even begins to believe them is worrying for us all.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10688379
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November 18, 2010 6:45pm
WebWrat

What I Don’t Like About Sarah Palin

http://www.irishexaminerusa.com/mt/2010/11/16/what_i_dont_like_about_sarah_p.html
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November 18, 2010 8:26pm
Jack5

Wow! Cracks found in walls of new brothel.

What is this? Functional architecture?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4360666/Building-prompts-road-closures-evacuation
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November 18, 2010 8:52pm
kaya

Viking2 – you can safely ignore every statistic or chart you see on the media or hear from the government. Most of us know the reality by instinct, the bullshit is for the average joe who wants to be comforted that it’s going to be alright. The problem is, the more often the spin comes out the less it is likely to be believed. A bit like Briscoes saying they are having a “50% off sale!!!” Yeah right……..
I hate being cynical.
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November 18, 2010 9:07pm
kaya

Talking aout being cynical, this wee story touched my heart.

“A young family moved into a house next door to an empty plot. One day Joe, Steve and a gang of building workers turned up to start building a house.

The young family’s 5-year-old daughter naturally took an interest in all the activity going on next door and started talking with the workers. She hung around and eventually the builders, all with hearts of gold, more or less adopted the little girl as a sort of project mascot. They chatted with her, let her sit with them while they had tea and lunch breaks, and gave her little jobs to do here and there to make her feel important. They even gave her, her very own hard hat and gloves.

At the end of the first week they presented her with a pay envelope containing two dollars in 10 cent coins. The little girl took her ‘pay’ home to her mother who suggested that they take the money she had received to the bank the next day to start a savings account.

When they got to the bank the cashier was tickled pink listening to the little girl telling her about her ‘work’ on the building site and the fact she had a ‘pay packet’.

‘You must have worked very hard to earn all this,’ said the bank cashier.

The little girl proudly replied, ‘I worked all last week with the men building a big house.’

‘My goodness gracious,’ said the cashier. ‘Will you be working on the house again this week, as well?’

The little girl thought for a moment and said…

‘I think so. Provided those bastards at Carters deliver the fucking timber and it doesn’t piss down with rain .’
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November 18, 2010 9:15pm
WillowPalin

Darn, I iz in all kinda trubble agin, jest coz eye callid sum poof a fagot.

Mom sayes it is coz them tv folk dunt lik mee much and coz she in woopin da ass of mr obarma, eye wish dey wud jst leev me and ma buby a lone.

http://specials.msn.com/A-List/Lifestyle/Willow-Palin-homophobic-slurs.aspx?cp-documentid=26388432
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November 18, 2010 9:54pm
Offshore_Kiwi

Kaya, that is absolute gold. I have a Miss 4 who would probably play the part of the wee girl quite well.
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November 18, 2010 10:16pm
Jack5

If you want to crash into NZ just tell our border authorities you thought you had a good chance of getting in.

Our justice system has gone to hell without the Privy Council.

the link:

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/137011/syrian-mans-false-passport-convictions-set-aside
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November 18, 2010 10:27pm
Dirty Rat

Viking 2 @6:42 re rumour untested pollen

That seems to be the bully from Te Puke.

One dude undermaled his planted and allegedly imported the untested pollen from Italy.

There will be a lynching if proved correct
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November 18, 2010 11:06pm
Offshore_Kiwi

Wreck (6.44pm) the figures are correct. And the gap widens the higher up the corporate food chain you climb. Even with Aussie’s higher tax rates and addiction to government, any kiwi with an ounce of productivity, entrepreneurship or just wanting to make a better life would be crazy not to spend at least a couple of years here.
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November 18, 2010 11:53pm
Pete George

This link (click on the name in the previous post) to direct encouragement and incitement to violence is a serious matter.
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November 19, 2010 6:56am

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