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October 3, 2010 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 3 October 2010

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General Debate

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reid

“…name ONE virtue that is exclusively christian. Just one. Is that too much of an ask?”

What’s that got to do with anything, MNIJ? Do you think that if it doesn’t exist, that’s a reflection on Christianity?

How?
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October 3, 2010 4:07pm
Kris K

reid 3:42 pm,

The fact is Kris, most of them don’t want to do the thing you think they do. They simply don’t. They’re quite happy living in their own Muslim-governed countries, and what’s wrong with that?

You keep repeating that like a mantra, Reid.
If they want to stay in their own countries – then WHY don’t they? Why is it that Muslims are taking over much of the West through immigration, and yet when they get here they set up Muslim only enclaves, refuse to assimilate, rape our women, push for Sharia courts, push for establishing mosques and be free to express their faith all while claiming to be offended by Christian symbolism and holydays/holidays, etc, etc.

What they’d like to see, which is reasonable, is less western interference in their own territories. The reason we’re there, in our view, is for our own security. However, unfortunately, this makes Muslims in those countries we’re in, understandably feel less secure.

Islam has declared war on the West, and the entire non-Muslim world. They will/are using terrorism and immigration – all with the end goal of establishing a global Islamic caliphate. This is confirmed by the Koran, by Mohammed’s proclamation, by Islamic religious/political leaders’ proclamations, and even by your so called ‘moderate’ Muslim who acknowledge Islam’s aim of establishing Islam globally under Sharia law, and that all MUST submit to Islam. Remember, Islam means SUBMISSION – no Muslim will deny this.

The only way forward, is not to do more of the same, but to do something different. What we’ve been doing to date, hasn’t really worked very well, vis-a-vis calming people down, has it. So why apparently, is it rocket science to some people, to conclude that perhaps we should try another approach? Everything you advocate in terms of your attitude Kris, will only perpetuate and exacerbate the security danger, to the west. It will, there is no argument.

Appeasing Islam is even LESS effective than what we are doing now. Did you actually read Mike’s article in his 3:05 pm comment? – where Jefferson learnt the lesson that appeasing Islam doesn’t work and only further encourages it:

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2007/691/
By 1801, however, it became clear that the policy of appeasement had failed. The Pasha of Tripoli, who five years earlier had been satisfied with a payment of $56,000, now demanded increasingly larger sums. When they were not forthcoming, piracy resumed. The same held true for the other Barbary states. The Algerians received payments from the U.S. totaling $990,000 plus another $585,000 in 1793 to cover the ransom of 11 American ships. These were extraordinary sums for a nation with a budget of no more than $7 million, but the appetite of the Muslim states seemed to grow evermore insatiable.

“As America soon learned, a policy of accommodation only encouraged the brigands of the Barbary Coast to seize more ships and to take more captives. Far from providing safe passage to American and other foreign vessels, the North African rulers remained active accomplices to the crime of piracy, taking protection money while at the same time permitting the banditry to continue.

“Things were to change, however, with the election of Thomas Jefferson. In addition to his reputation as an author, scholar and principal architect of the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson also was an outspoken opponent of the practice of tribute. He saw it not only as an affront to the nation’s dignity, but also as an ineffectual response to an abhorrent practice. He argued that ultimately the policy of appeasement would fail because, in conveying weakness, it also encouraged further treachery. He was right.”

Islam cannot be negotiated with – it lives by the sword. And the ONLY thing which will limit Islam’s ascendancy is meeting it head on by employing the same methods it uses against non-Muslims – ie force. When are you appeasers going to WAKE UP?
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October 3, 2010 4:13pm
Fletch

Pete, those aren’t the words coming out of nasa Chief Charles Bolden’s own mouth….
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October 3, 2010 4:18pm
reid

“If they want to stay in their own countries – then WHY don’t they?”

Most of them do, Kris. Yes, we have Muslim immigrants and Europe has heaps more than we do, but this arises from globalisation, not from islamification.

“Islam has declared war on the West, and the entire non-Muslim world.”

When? Since forever? This HAS to be your conclusion since you’re backing up your view based on what the Koran says, and last time I heard, that hadn’t changed for many many many centuries, Kris.

This means that your imaginary wholesale jihad has been going since 600 CE. Quite a feat to have cleverly disguised itself all throughout history only to reveal its true colours in the last few years. How diabolically fiendish.

Yes Kris, this is the inescapable conclusion one HAS to draw straight from your own argument. Isn’t it mental?

“Islam cannot be negotiated with – it lives by the sword.”

Yes normally people don’t enter into negotiations with others when those others think that about them. For some reason. Aren’t people funny.
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October 3, 2010 4:23pm
Fletch

This means that your imaginary wholesale jihad has been going since 600 CE. Quite a feat to have cleverly disguised it all throughout history only to reveal itself in the last few years.

Disguised it? They’ve been quite open about it Reid. You obviously don’t know much about it’s history.
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October 3, 2010 4:25pm
Kris K

Pete G[e]orge 3:43 pm,

No Kris, the laugh is on the so called Christians who keep arguing amongst themselves over who is a proper Christian and who isn’t. That’s when they have time to spare from arguing over which religion is a proper religion.

And you have even LESS understanding than those who may ‘claim’ to be Christians.

Most Christians get on with their own version in their own lives and leave others to do as they wish.

Actually most BIBLICAL Christians expose falsehood and error, and rely on God’s word to determine what is and isn’t genuine Christianity and genuine faith and relationship with God through Christ. Once again, your opinion about what most Christians DO and DO NOT do, just like your opinion about what constitiues a GENUINE Christian, has about as much weight as a 2 year old expounding the virtues, or not, of a nuclear Iran.

Pete G[e]orge – a man with an opinion on everything, but a man of little substance, relevance or integrity.
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October 3, 2010 4:28pm
reid

“Disguised it? They’ve been quite open about it Reid.”

Really? I hadn’t noticed, since I’ve been alive, much concern about seething hoards of fanatical terrorists. I mean in the 60’s there were the commies and in the 70’s there were the Irish and the commies and the germans. In the 80’s there was still the Irish and we won against the commies – yay. In the 90’s there was nothing at all and then in the naughties, it all started and now that’s all we ever talk about.

I could go on and on through each decade prior to that but it would become fearfully tedious. But I can if you like, let me know.
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October 3, 2010 4:31pm
MyNameIsJack

reid (5,018) Says:

October 3rd, 2010 at 4:07 pm
“…name ONE virtue that is exclusively christian. Just one. Is that too much of an ask?”

What’s that got to do with anything, MNIJ?

Quite starightforward, I thought.

IF there is a virtue that is exclusively xian, then it may make sense to be concerned about the expression xianity by any elected officer. IF, however, there is no such exclusivly xian virtue, why does xianity have any relevance? Other that rooting for the home team, that is?
.
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October 3, 2010 4:31pm
Kris K

reid 4:23 pm,

“If they want to stay in their own countries – then WHY don’t they?”

Most of them do, Kris. Yes, we have Muslim immigrants and Europe has heaps more than we do, but this arises from globalisation, not from islamification.

UTTER CRAP!!! – Like the rest of your comment.

The ONLY thing which has limited Islam’s ascendancy in the past has been it being conquered by those it initiated aggression against. Like Fletch said, “Disguised it? They’ve been quite open about it Reid. You obviously don’t know much about it’s history.”

Ignorance is bliss, eh Reid?
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October 3, 2010 4:38pm
reid

“…why does xianity have any relevance? Other that rooting for the home team, that is?”

Jack every single one of us are blessed with the ability to love and who knows what that is and from whence it comes, but isn’t it a marvelous feeling that makes us truly human.

Now supposing the universe wasn’t just a collection of biological chemical and physical processes but rather had other dimensions to it that inter-operated just as those forces do, to produce what we have.

Science is breaking new frontiers all the time, isn’t it, and even with our state of the art, how can anyone rule out the possibility that there are other forces at work which we don’t know anything about, let alone have the ability to perceive and measure.

Now is that really inconceivable? That possibility? I assume it’s not, to you, for you’re an intelligent man.

So Christians and all other religions, attempt to codify that possibility as much as, in our less advanced state, we can. We have different codes, but they all drive toward the same thing.

Gratitude Jack. Gratitude for this wonderful creation.
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October 3, 2010 4:39pm
Pete George

…the so called Christians who keep arguing amongst themselves over who is a proper Christian and who isn’t.

Kris: Actually most BIBLICAL Christians expose falsehood and error…
…what constitutes a GENUINE Christian…

…and they keep arguing….
….and wanting a resurrection of the crusades.
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October 3, 2010 4:41pm
reid

“The ONLY thing which has limited Islam’s ascendancy in the past has been it being conquered by those it initiated aggression against.”

Crikey Kris I can’t believe you really believe that. Fuck. Er…

Forget it.

No seriously, where’s your sense of reality? Go around all the major Muslim population centres. Tell me why all Muslim govts are working closely with western intelligence to identify isolate and track Muslim terror groups. Why do they help with that, if what you say is true?
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October 3, 2010 4:44pm
Kris K

MyNameIsLegion 4:31 pm,

Mark 12:30 & 31

1 Peter 1:16
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October 3, 2010 4:56pm
Kris K

reid 4:44 pm,

… Kris I can’t believe you really believe that.

Rest assured – the feeling’s mutual, Reid.
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October 3, 2010 5:00pm
MyNameIsJack

Thanks KK.

But why is Mark 12:31 exclusively xian.

Your other 2 examples cannot count as virtues, rather they are obligations.
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October 3, 2010 5:04pm
Kris K

Reid, did you actually read Jeferson’s admission that Islam cannot be appeased? – quoted in Mike’s 3:05 pm comment, and which I restated in my 4:13 pm comment.
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October 3, 2010 5:05pm
reid

Kris while Jeferson was undoubtedly a top-flight genius with Tiple-A clever air-points, I seriously doubt he knew precisely the dynamics that have unfolded for us, within the last ten years.

What gets me about your position, is that all it says is: we have a problem. You offer no solutions, no strategy, no way forward.

How about doing that, just once.
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October 3, 2010 5:08pm
Kris K

MyNameIsJack 5:04 pm,

Thanks KK.

But why is Mark 12:31 exclusively [Christ]ian.

Because to love your brother (all men) is a supernaturally endowed ‘ability’ given by (the biblical) God to His followers. It is something which we cannot do without God’s indwelling Spirit.

Your other 2 examples cannot count as virtues, rather they are obligations.

I guess that’s a matter of perspective.
As above, we (Christians) can ONLY love God, and be holy like God through His indwelling Spirit.
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October 3, 2010 5:13pm
wat dabney

The discussion over who is a real Christian always puts me in mind of the closing joke in this old Elmo Philips routine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBKIyCbppfs

Of course, the truth is there is only one true religion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IrtItfWn1E&feature=player_embedded
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October 3, 2010 5:16pm
Kris K

reid 5:08 pm,

Kris while Jeferson was undoubtedly a top-flight genius with Tiple-A clever air-points, I seriously doubt he knew precisely the dynamics that have unfolded for us, within the last ten years.

Whether he did or not is irrelelvant – he knew the issues regarding Islam in his day, and he dealt with them accordingly. Much as we have to see Islam for what it is in our age (Islam is unchanged) and deal with it accordingly. I would argue that the approach is much the same – it’s just the hardware that’s different.

What gets me about your position, is that all it says is: we have a problem. You offer no solutions, no strategy, no way forward.

I think I have been entirely clear and consistent regarding how we should deal with Islam. The “solution” is to respond in kind – meet Islam on its terms – talk for talk, aggression for aggression. Islam has refused to talk and honour its committments to date, therefore we only are left with ‘Option B’.

Plain enough for you, Reid?
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October 3, 2010 5:24pm
reid

“The discussion over who is a real Christian”

Whose discussing that, wat?
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October 3, 2010 5:41pm
MT_Tinman

Kris, please forgive the ignorance, I ask because I do not know.

“Love your neighbour (or brother)” which, when first quoted meant love those in your village or immediate area now means love all men except those who believe in Islam?

You also state that “…christians can ONLY love God”. Doesn’t that leave your neighbour (brother) out in the cold?

As an aside Jefferson was, of course, a progressive.
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October 3, 2010 5:45pm
reid

I would argue that the approach is much the same – it’s just the hardware that’s different.

Kris the fact that Jeferson spoke about it doesn’t mean anything. If you think you’re uncovering a strand of hitherto-secret history, think again. What’s happened to us since Jeferson is well-documented and Muslim-terrorism doesn’t feature largely in it. Why are you pretending it does?

I think I have been entirely clear and consistent regarding how we should deal with Islam.

Yes you have, but unfortunately you’re quite wrong. It’s this which I’m concerned about.

The “solution” is to respond in kind – meet Islam on its terms – talk for talk, aggression for aggression.

Yes and how is the Israeli talk of resuming settlements a promotion of “talking” over “aggression?” This happens all the time Kris. You seem to think the west does nothing, whereas its all Islam’s fault for being “aggressive.” What a peculiarly selective view.

Islam has refused to talk and honour its committments to date, therefore we only are left with ‘Option B’.

Serious organised aggression that kills people doesn’t arise from no cause whatsoever. If you imagine the cause to be the Koran and only the Koran, then you’re denying history and science, in that, living people react to things. Societies can be pushed into a certain conditioned state by the actions of another. It takes concerted, inter-generational interaction to do that, but it can be done. This is what we have, today.

Given this situation, if it were true, then from a human behaviour view, applying Option B would be the worst possible thing you could do. It would be like lighting a match in a firework factory.

And this is what you’re suggesting.

I beg to differ.
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October 3, 2010 5:53pm
Pete George

‘Option B’ – aggression for aggression – until there are no aggressors left? This is the bit I really don’t get, fight anyone at home you don’t agree with (“traitors”), fight anyone overseas you don’t agree, until when? The good all survive and the bad all get killed? And when there are only Christians left they fight until only the “true” ones are left?

This plan seems totally devoid of common sense and practicality. But when you get nuts on both sides prepared to try it…..

It would be like lighting a match in a firework factory.

I think that’s what Kris wants. And he thinks he will be sitting on top of the rocket that rises the highest above the mayhem.
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October 3, 2010 5:57pm
reid

Sorry folks, blockquote bullshit; correction below.

Islam has refused to talk and honour its committments to date, therefore we only are left with ‘Option B’.

Serious organised aggression that kills people doesn’t arise from no cause whatsoever.

If you imagine the cause to be the Koran and only the Koran, then you’re denying history and science, in that, living people react to things. Societies can be pushed into a certain conditioned state by the actions of another. It takes concerted, inter-generational interaction to do that, but it can be done. This is what we have, today.

Given this situation, if it were true, then from a human behaviour view, applying Option B would be the worst possible thing you could do. It would be like lighting a match in a firework factory.

And this is what you’re suggesting.

I beg to differ.
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October 3, 2010 5:59pm
reid

See Kris, Muslims aren’t mindless automatons. If they were, then I’d avocate lighting that match in the firework factory, because then it would be the only solution.

Globally, the level of their social cohesion and political indoctrination is nothing whatsoever like what it was with the Nazis when WWII broke out.

Because that’s what you’re saying, isn’t it. That WWIII is looking to break it, you can see it coming, just look at it, clouds are building, just like they did, with the Nazis.

But it’s not happening like that Kris. It’s just not. The level of indoctrination in Nazi Germany and Austria and the USSR was quite simply possible only because the entire population was beholden 24/7 to message after message that could be broadcast reliably to all ears and with complete impunity as to content veracity which was repeated ad infinitum in all schools, universities and eventually, round the dinner tables and that had to happen for years, before the population was prepared for war.

If you seriously think that’s happening on the same scale today around Muslim dinner tables, you’re fucking nuts.

Newsflash. Muslims are human. Ergo, they want a quiet life, they love their kids and take them places and teach them about beauty and life and all of that. They’re human, Kris. Human. They have jobs, families, lives, homes. Deny that, if you can.
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October 3, 2010 6:10pm
MyNameIsJack

Kris K (3,187) Says:

October 3rd, 2010 at 5:13 pm
MyNameIsJack 5:04 pm,

Thanks KK.

But why is Mark 12:31 exclusively [Christ]ian.

Because to love your brother (all men) is a supernaturally endowed ‘ability’ given by (the biblical) God to His followers. It is something which we cannot do without God’s indwelling Spirit.

So how do you account for this amongst non xians? Amongst believers in other gods? Amongst atheists?

As we have never met, based solely on your posts here, I find that you are severely lacking in brotherly love.
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October 3, 2010 6:18pm
thedavincimode

Kris K

Isn’t there somewhere other than Kiwiblog that you can go on a Sunday to indulge your blatantly hypocritical god bothering? You spout scripture/biblical references at the drop of a hat but are incapable or recognising the inherent paradox in your inability to live the underlying values. Like your sad little mate bumbaiter, you read the words on the page but you’re incapable of understanding what they actually mean.
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October 3, 2010 6:19pm
Fletch

reid, have you actually looked at what the Quran and Sunnah say? Have you? Or are you listening to those who call it “the religion of peace” without actually having a look yourself?

If you have looked at it, then point to the verses to which you believe prove your point. I am curious as to why you believe the way you do.
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October 3, 2010 6:20pm
Pete George

Fletch, what do you think should happen to all Muslims to solve your problem? It won’t require a book to answer that.
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October 3, 2010 6:25pm
MyNameIsJack

Tha same answer Fletch has to everything, pete. Bow down to the pope, the only true god we have. Preferably with your pants around your ankles and your arse in the air.
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October 3, 2010 6:29pm
Hurf Durf

TVNZ and Dim Wilson fawn over leftards crawling to DC, an event which got half the attendance of the Beck rally. Still nothing about the No Pressure masturbatory fantasy by the eco-fascists.

Figures.
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October 3, 2010 6:31pm
Fletch

Pete, I don’t generally have a problem with Muslims per se. What I have a problem with is those in the West who think they can appease those, or have a dialogue with those whose ideology does not allow for compromise in the way the West understands it. Everywhere around the globe, all sects of Islam teach that the Qur’an is the perfect word of Allah, valid for all peoples and all times. America is putting her own neck on the chopping block if she thinks she can appease Islam and that Islam will fold into their belief system the traditional values of the West that are based on Jewish and Christian beliefs.
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October 3, 2010 6:34pm
Kris K

reid 6:10 pm,

The level of indoctrination in Nazi Germany and Austria and the USSR was quite simply possible only because the entire population was beholden 24/7 to message after message that could be broadcast reliably to all ears and with complete impunity as to content veracity which was repeated ad infinitum in all schools, universities and eventually, round the dinner tables and that had to happen for years, before the population was prepared for war.

That’s exactly how many of us perceive Islam to operate, Reid.

For example, Muslim children are taught to hate Jews/Israel from birth – from the home, to the school, to the mosque. Similarly, the Great Satan (America in particular, but the West in general), the Judeo-Christian West fares little better in the Muslim mind. In fact Hitler actually borrowed Islam’s hate for the Jew, and incorporated it into his aim to “solve the Jewish problem”. Even today “Mein Kampf” is a No. 1 best seller in most Muslim countries. Islam and the Nazis have a lot in common. And primary to both is the brain washing of the masses within both systems.
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October 3, 2010 6:34pm
MyNameIsJack

Everywhere around the globe, all sects of Islam teach that the Qur’an is the perfect word of Allah, valid for all peoples and all times.

And christians teach? What about Catholics? What do they say about the bible?
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October 3, 2010 6:39pm
MT_Tinman

# Hurf Durf (2,088) Says:
October 3rd, 2010 at 6:31 pm

TVNZ and Dim Wilson fawn over leftards crawling to DC, an event which got half the attendance of the Beck rally. Still nothing about the No Pressure masturbatory fantasy by the eco-fascists.

Figures.

H D I struggle to understand why you (in fact anyone) would watch TVNZ.

You know it will only upset you.

Surely only an idio …. Oh, shit! Sorry.

Forget I said anything.

Nothing to see here folks.

Move along.
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October 3, 2010 6:39pm
Fletch

MyNameIsJack @ 6:39

I will answer with a quote from Robert Spencer –

These are not really equivalents of the aggressive language in the Qur’an, for no modern Jew or Christian reads the stories and celebrations of Hebrew warriors as a guide for behavior in the present. Jews and Christians do consider the violent passages in the Psalms, the Book of Joshua and elsewhere to be part of God’s Word, but not in the same sense that Muslims regard all of the Qur’an.

Rather than a strict moral code for all time, these passages are a portion of the historical record of how God brought his people out of sin and gradually into the light. Virtually all Christians, including fundamentalists, would agree that they pertained to a particular time and set of circumstances, and reflected an incomplete stage of the divine revelation, which would eventually be fulfilled—and superseded—by the New Testament gospel of love and reconciliation. Jews as well as Christians have developed highly refined methods of allegorical interpretation through which they view bellicose scriptural passages. Islam, by contrast, generally rejects any idea of a historical progression in revelation, and allows little latitude for allegorical interpretation of the martial verses in the Qur’an. This is partly because Muslim beliefs about the authorship of the Qur’an differ from Christian beliefs about how the Bible came to be.
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October 3, 2010 6:43pm
MT_Tinman

# Kris K (3,188) Says:
October 3rd, 2010 at 6:34 pm
Even today “Mein Kampf” is a No. 1 best seller in most Muslim countries.

Details please. (include statistics)

Incidentally have you read it?

An interesting read.
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October 3, 2010 6:45pm
Hurf Durf

Tinman, you flatter me.

One must always keep abreast of the activities of one’s opponents. Knowledge is power, is it not? Surely only an idiot would rather keep their fingers in their ears and would rather imagine that TVNZ is actually unbiased (though despite its flaws, it’s still far better than TV3).
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October 3, 2010 6:47pm
reid

reid, have you actually looked at what the Quran and Sunnah say? Have you? Or are you listening to those who call it “the religion of peace” without actually having a look yourself?

If you have looked at it, then point to the verses to which you believe prove your point. I am curious as to why you believe the way you do.

Yes I have Fletch and who cares what it says? The question is, does whatever it says compel Muslims to leave their families, homes, jobs and lives and take up arms to kill westerners whenever they can. If you think it does, then how do you explain the vast vast vast vast vast vast vast vast vast vast vast majority of Muslims who don’t do this?

Frankly, it’s becoming tiresome to repeat.
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October 3, 2010 6:50pm
Kris K

MyNameIsJack 6:18 pm,

But why is Mark 12:31 exclusively [Christ]ian.

Because to love your brother (all men) is a supernaturally endowed ‘ability’ given by (the biblical) God to His followers. It is something which we cannot do without God’s indwelling Spirit.

So how do you account for this amongst non xians? Amongst believers in other gods? Amongst atheists?

They can’t and they don’t. Christians are even instructed to “Love your enemies” – most people struggle to even love their friends. Often loving your enemies falls into the category of telling them the truth, and not compromising the message.

As we have never met, based solely on your posts here, I find that you are severely lacking in brotherly love.

No doubt if you were to meet Christ in person you would also regard Him to be lacking in brotherly love towards you. The Pharisees of His day didn’t feel His love in the way you would interpret brotherly love, either.
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, MNIL, but I’m often soft with those who are open; but with those who are harsh or blaspheme/insult my God I am also often harsh and more forthright, while others I simply ignore as being beyond reason.

Horses for courses, so to speak.
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October 3, 2010 6:51pm
reid

That’s exactly how many of us perceive Islam to operate, Reid.

Yes I know Kris. But where’s your evidence, facts, documents, You-Tube videos etc, that it’s actually truly really in fact up and running like that?

Has it occurred to you that it’s not actually like that, in any way? Does this matter?

For example, Muslim children are taught to hate Jews/Israel from birth – from the home, to the school, to the mosque.

Indeed they are Kris as is well documented by several excellent books I’ve read. Isn’t this a regrettable fact of life. So given this is, in fact, a fact of life, and given that “liquidating” them is out of the question, which precise strategy given this regrettable fact of life plus the fact they are also human, would you adopt. Open communications. Real actions on the ground. Etc etc etc etc. Right?

So if we rolled in the tanks, shut the visors, made theatening noises (which is what you’re suggesting, right?), what do you think might happen next?
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October 3, 2010 6:59pm
Fletch

reid, then how do you explain the Muslim crowds dancing in the streets in Eastern countries after 9/11? And that virtually no Islamic leaders or imams condemned the attacks?

The truth is, I don’t think we hear about half the things that are happening around the world regarding Islam, but just jump across to jihadwatch.com which keeps a tab on what is happening. I notice at the top of the page today a Christian lawyer and his five kids being killed in Pakistan for standing up to a Muslim who was charging Christians exorbitant interest.

We don’t hear about this stuff because the West just doesn’t report it, or like to report it. Scroll down the page – have a read.
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October 3, 2010 7:02pm
WebWrat

http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2010/10/15-photos-from-onenation-rally-youll.html
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October 3, 2010 7:02pm
MT_Tinman

# Hurf Durf (2,089) Says:
October 3rd, 2010 at 6:47 pm

Tinman, you flatter me.

One must always keep abreast of the activities of one’s opponents. Knowledge is power, is it not? Surely only an idiot would rather keep their fingers in their ears and would rather imagine that TVNZ is actually unbiased (though despite its flaws, it’s still far better than TV3).

I’m pleased you find my comment flattering.

In fact always happy to please.

One problem: How is TVNZ the “Opposition”?

The alternative TV3 is just as bad – if not (as you note) worse.

Why does any intelligent being watch this rubbish instead of hunting out genuine news and views via the world wide web?

Surely television, other than for sport and brainless entertainment, offers nothing useful.
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October 3, 2010 7:11pm
Kris K

reid 6:59 pm,

So if we rolled in the tanks, shut the visors, made theatening noises (which is what you’re suggesting, right?), what do you think might happen next?

If it couldn’t win, Islam would pull its head in, revert to its low (pretended) subservient position, and await its next opportunity to flex its muscles – as it has done throughout its entire history.

It can’t and it won’t change its foundational system of belief without also denying that Allah is god, and Mohammed is his prophet – which it will never do. These things are inextricably linked, as are the ultimate aims and intentions of Islam.
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October 3, 2010 7:14pm
Pete George

A good win for the Junior Warriors in the Toyota Cup. Interesting to see Omar Slaimankhel take part, first year playing league, born in Afghanistan, but obviously adapting to a Kiwi lifestyle a bit at least.
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October 3, 2010 7:25pm
reid

“reid, then how do you explain the Muslim crowds dancing in the streets in Eastern countries after 9/11?”

Er, Fletch, I don’t rate as a reliably representative sample of 1.5 billion muslims, those media shots we saw at the time, with respect to reading into it the detailed intention of every single Muslim, almost ten years after the event.

“And that virtually no Islamic leaders or imams condemned the attacks?”

Plenty of them did and continue to. I hear them, all the time. If you want a link, look up the archives several months ago, for I can’t be arsed looking through it again. Perhaps you could ask Kris, I’m sure he bookmarked it.

Of course, if you’re somehow consciously or sub-consciously biased in some way, that naturally makes it much harder if not impossible to hear anything at all except that which reinforces your pre-determined view, doesn’t it.
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October 3, 2010 7:31pm
Fletch

Kerre Woodham in the Herald today on why the new Give Way rule is a bad idea.
I don’t know why we in NZ have to follow other countries just for the heck of it.
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October 3, 2010 7:37pm
reid

“If it couldn’t win, Islam would pull its head in, revert to its low (pretended) subservient position, and await its next opportunity to flex its muscles – as it has done throughout its entire history.”

Righto Kris, time to stand aside and let those who understand things military explain how your tactic would play out. Sorry to be condescending, but FFS.

Confronting an asymetric enemy, which is what the Muslims are, with overwhelming force, is 100% SNAFU territory, as was demonstrated amply by Vietnam but for those of us with military knowledge going beyond the MSM in many other wars, as well.

It doesn’t work. It has never worked. Therefore, it probably won’t work if we try the same thing. Again. Kris, while we are white and they aren’t, it won’t work. We can’t assimilate and “fool them” therefore we will never become a fifth column and that my friend, is the only repeat only, way you can defeat an asymetric enemy if you confront them.

The only proven successful tactic to use with an asymetric enemy is disarmament and that crosses over many fields from the military hardware a.k.a. warfare into the economic, political and social as-in hearts and minds. Look at history and tell me I’m wrong.

This is the only way.
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October 3, 2010 7:41pm
MyNameIsJack

reid, sorry, you’re wrong.

You forget that, inn KK’s world, god will smite them, Someday. One day. Time not so far away.

God doesn’t do asymetric, god does big picture stuff, like kill the first born, drown everything in a flood, send plagues and, as the ultimate wepon, murderrs himself.
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October 3, 2010 7:46pm
Fletch

reid, I’m not talking about confronting Islam; I’m just saying that it’s stupid for the West to think they can appease Islam and make overtures to them, as Obama thinks he can do, when he really doesn’t understand at all. He’s putting America’s neck on the chopping block if he thinks they will play happy families. Their wish is for the entire world to come under the umbrella of Islam, by force if necessary.
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October 3, 2010 7:48pm
tom hunter

MikeNZ (at 3:05pm)

As soon as I saw the Jefferson owned a Koran stuff I knew he was going to plow the whole bigotry contrast angle. I’ve seen those particular quotes used numerous times in left-wing sites.

I immediately thought of the counter material that you presented, but I was busy elsewhere, so thanks for your reply to him and not letting him get away with a one-sided view of history. I’m sure he knows it anyway as it is not uncommon knowledge, but I guess it just another lefty sliming point that can’t be resisted.
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October 3, 2010 7:51pm
WebWrat

http://weaselzippers.us/2010/09/30/irony-alert-in-seattle-hijab-and-burqa-clad-women-protest-ayaan-hirsi-ali-speech-on-islams-oppression-of-women/
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October 3, 2010 7:55pm
Pete George

it’s stupid for the West to think they can appease Islam and make overtures to them, as Obama thinks he can do

What is he doing to “appease” Islam? Appeasing drones?
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October 3, 2010 7:59pm
MyNameIsJack

I reckon the Progressives are running scared. While they keep feeding their deceit and lies through the corrupt MSM in the hope that the plebs will keep on bending over, I bet most of them wake up numerous time during the night in a cold sweat. Is it wrong to gain a perverse sense of pleasure at the thought of this? – “Father forgive me, for I haved sinned … “
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October 3, 2010 8:03pm
MyNameIsJack

There’s battle lines being drawn
Nobody’s right if everybody’s wrong
Young people speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind
I think it’s time we stop, hey, what’s that sound
Everybody look what’s going down

What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side
It’s time we stop, hey, what’s that sound
Everybody look what’s going down

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you’re always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away
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October 3, 2010 8:06pm
dad4justice

Wonder what unit this Jacko Wacko is celled up in?
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October 3, 2010 8:09pm
MyNameIsJack

daddio, right next door to you.

Say your prayers little one
Don`t forget my son
To include everyone
I tuck you in
walk within
Keep you free from sin
’til the sandman he comes

Sleep with one eye open
Gripping your pillow tight

Exit light
Enter night
Take my hand
We’re off to never never-land

Something’s wrong, shut the light
Heavy thoughts tonight
And they aren’t of Snow White
Dreams of war
Dreams of liars
Dreams of dragons fire
And of things that will bite, yeah

Sleep with one eye open
Gripping your pillow tight

Exit light
Enter night
take my hand
We’re off to never never-land

(whisper)
Now I lay me down to sleep (x2)
Pray the lord my soul to keep (x2)
If I die before I wake (x2)
Pray the lord my soul to take (x2)

Hush little baby don’t say a word
And never mind that noise you heard
It’s just the beasts under your bed
In your closet and in your head

I think that sums up you flesh eating blood drinking xian wierdo nutbarfriutcakejobs quite well. You’re so terrified of your own shadows.
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October 3, 2010 8:14pm
dad4justice

You are one sick puppy Jacko Wacko.
God bless you.
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October 3, 2010 8:19pm
Shunda barunda

Did you go and see them MNIJ?
Wouldn’t have thought you to be a Metallica fan!
Good music
yeah- arrhh!!!
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October 3, 2010 8:20pm
reid

“Their wish is for the entire world to come under the umbrella of Islam, by force if necessary.”

So if we take that as read, what happens next, is my point.

My other point is, that we don’t necessarily have to take that, as read.
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October 3, 2010 8:21pm
MyNameIsJack

No shunda, didn’t see them, not a huge fan, but like some of their stuff. Funnily enough, last night my partner said “I didn’t think you’d like Jesus Christ Superstar as I was downloading the original recording. I like most music, even some hymns, there’s only two types of music I don’t like – cuntry and western.
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October 3, 2010 8:23pm
tom hunter

I’m not talking about confronting Islam;

You should be – but don’t allow yourself to be painted into a strawman corner such as “military action” being the only confrontational method.

While that has its place the real confrontation has to be one of ideas and it has to take place in Western society first before it can occur in Muslim societies.

All that’s needed is for Westerners to stand up against the intimidatory bullshit that has occurred in situations such as Salman Rushdie, the Mohammed Cartoon affair and the scholarly book on that affair – published without printing the very cartoons under discussion, the South Park cartoon network censorship deal and people like Theo Van Gogh and Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

But we won’t, at least not in a unified front, thanks to the Western Left, the likes of MNIJ and Joe90, who’d much prefer to tell horror stories about their evergreen boogeyman, Christian Fundamentalists.

Pathetic, even as the intimidation begins to strike closer to the friends rather than easily dismissable right-wingers, as the recent case of Molly Norris demonstrated. Molly’s a left-winger and author of the “Everybody Draw Muhummad Day” stillborn protest. She’s also “gone ghost”; dumped her career, life in the US – everything – and gone into hiding because some Islamic goon issued a fatwa on her ass. The only thing that’s even vaguely funny about this is that Ms Norris was quite the multi-culturalist suckup to Islam before she decided to challenge the situation with humour. Big mistake: turns out she’s going to get her head cut off anyway – and her left-wing pals (Hitchens aside) were nowhere to be seen.

That’s about as basic an intrusion as one can have on your life. Molly is effectively under Sharia Law now, here in the West! And the most incredible aspect to it is that the enforcers are not actually Islamic whackjobs but her fellow citizens – the same people who tell us “Islam is a religion of peace”, then tell us that we have to shut up because otherwise these guys will go bananas and kill a bunch of people.

I do not often use this word but it is cowardice – gutless, craven, unprincipled, cowardice and the Western Left are the main ones guilty of it.
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October 3, 2010 8:31pm
side show bob

Obama is a bloody Muslim, his forehead has carpet burns.
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October 3, 2010 8:34pm
bhudson

MyNameIsJack,

Can you discern between the voices? Or do they all meld into one?
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October 3, 2010 9:05pm
reid

“That’s about as basic an intrusion as one can have on your life.”

tom I would have thought having electricity for about three unreliable hours a day was a basic intrusion as well. Wonder where that’s been happening a lot, in the last several years.
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October 3, 2010 9:11pm
Shunda barunda

No shunda, didn’t see them, not a huge fan, but like some of their stuff. Funnily enough, last night my partner said “I didn’t think you’d like Jesus Christ Superstar as I was downloading the original recording. I like most music, even some hymns, there’s only two types of music I don’t like – cuntry and western.

Ha! classic, you like some hymns and I like Metallica, Perhaps music is the key to settling differences between God dodgers and God botherers!
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October 3, 2010 9:25pm
MyNameIsJack

One more for the war mongering blood drinking flesh eating muslim fearinng christian fundies.

The king of Zor, he called for war
And the king of Zam, he answered.
They fashioned their weapons one upon one
Ton upon ton, they called for war at the rise of the sun.

Out went the call to one and to all
That echoed and rolled like the thunder.
Trumpets and drums, roar upon roar
More upon more.
Rolling the call of “Come now to war.”

Throughout the night they fashioned their might
With right on the side of the mighty.
They puzzled their minds plan upon plan
Man upon man
And at dying of dawn the great war began.

They met on the battlefield banner in hand.
They looked out across the vacant land.
And they counted the missing, one upon one,
None upon none.
The war it was over before it begun.

Two little kings playing a game.
They gave a war and nobody came.
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October 3, 2010 10:11pm
MyNameIsJack

Listen, children, to a story
That was written long ago,
‘Bout a kingdom on a mountain
And the valley-folk below.

On the mountain was a treasure
Buried deep beneath the stone,
And the valley-people swore
They’d have it for their very own.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won’t be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after….
One tin soldier rides away.

So the people of the valley
Sent a message up the hill,
Asking for the buried treasure,
Tons of gold for which they’d kill.

Came an answer from the kingdom,
“With our brothers we will share
All the secrets of our mountain,
All the riches buried there.”

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won’t be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after….
One tin soldier rides away.

Now the valley cried with anger,
“Mount your horses! Draw your sword!”
And they killed the mountain-people,
So they won their just reward.

Now they stood beside the treasure,
On the mountain, dark and red.
Turned the stone and looked beneath it…
“Peace on Earth” was all it said.

Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.
There won’t be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after….
One tin soldier rides away.
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October 3, 2010 10:22pm
MikeNZ

Fletch
Just caught this before bed.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=210701

OB1 is speaking to his audience by omission.

Reid et al
Go and find out what each of the prayers and especially Friday prayers are at the local Mosque.
If they don’t tell you that it is for NZ to be in Dar al Islam or for Sharia to be over NZ, they have lied to you.
The most beautiful thing for a Muslim is to live under Sharia, as that is a glory to Allah and his prophet.
So why wouldn’t they pray for it.

But you won’t will you? for you are armchair democrats and don’t know the value of freedom do you?

This woman gets it, why don’t you?
http://weaselzippers.us/2010/09/30/irony-alert-in-seattle-hijab-and-burqa-clad-women-protest-ayaan-hirsi-ali-speech-on-islams-oppression-of-women/
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October 3, 2010 10:42pm
reid

” for you are armchair democrats and don’t know the value of freedom do you?”

Oh I see Mike. Whereas you are?

Nothing I’ve said depends on anything the Muslims say five times a day, or anything else any of you heading down the wrong path, have said here today.

I’ve simply pointed to social, political observable, evidential reality, period. That’s all I’ve done.

Conversely, all of you have pointed to something vague in the Koran, that in your hallucination, is a call to revolution. I repeat, this is your hallucination. It is NOT the reality we see.
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October 3, 2010 10:50pm
WebWrat

I spose the gutless cowards and whores on this blog think this is OK!

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2010/10/03/this-is-what-happens-when-you-allow-a-little-sharia-into-your-country/
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October 3, 2010 11:18pm
Fletch

reid, you’ve done nothing of the sort. I can show you the verses from the Koran that prove my point, can point to you many instances of violence perpetrated by those who say they are following Islam, some of the most famous being –

1972: Munich Olympics: Israeli athletes murdered by Muslim terrorists
1979: Muslims storm US embassy, taking 52 hostages
1983: Muslim suicide bomber blows up Marine barracks in Beirut, killing 241 Americans
1985: elderly wheelchair bound Leon Klinghoffer thrown off hijacked cruise ship Achille Lauro
1993: first World Trade Center bombing by militant Muslims
1996: bombing of Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, killing 19 American soldiers
1998: bombing of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania
2000: bombing of USS Cole
2001: WTC

To say nothing of what happened in Britain
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October 3, 2010 11:21pm
Fletch

ps, if you’re interested in more current events, the site Political Islam has regular bulletins about persecution of Christians, Jews, etc – here is the most current (August 26 – September 14)

Bulletin of Christian Persecution

August 26-September 14, 2010

August 26, 2010
Pakistan
Christians affected by the devastating floods in Pakistan face “systematic discrimination” in the distribution of aid. Update HERE. (hat tip to JihadWatch)

August 28, 2010
Pakistan (Hat tip to InfidelsAreCool)
Suspected Islamic militants have killed three American Christian aid workers who were helping victims of Pakistan’s worst floods in recent memory.

August 31, 2010
Iraq
The Christian minority in Iraq has little faith in the peace-keeping abilities of the police force when the U.S. armed forces leave.

September 1, 2010
Pakistan
Muslims resumed building on a Christian cemetery desecrating more graves in spite of a local government order to halt construction.

September 6, 2010
Israel
Jerusalem’s Garden Tomb is in endangered by a Muslim construction project.

September 12, 2010
Indonesia
Assailants stabbed a Christian worshipper in the stomach and pounded a minister in the head with a wooden plank as they headed to morning prayers Sunday outside Indonesia’s capital. Update HERE.

September 13, 2010
Kashmir
Indian police shot dead 13 people in Kashmir on Monday as stone-throwing rioters defied curfews and torched a Christian school in a surge of anger stoked by the desecration of the Koran.

Punjab, India
Muslims in India reportedly attacked a church late Sunday night after they heard reports that a Quran had been burned in Michigan, according to Indian media outlets.

September 13, 2010
Italy (Hat tip to JihadWatch)
Italy will present a resolution to the United Nations that protects the rights of Pakistan’s religious minorities, Italian foreign minister Franco Frattini said in Rome on Monday. He made the announcement following a meeting with Shahbaz Bhatti, Pakistan’s minister of minority rights, who is a Catholic.

September 14, 2010
Iran (Hat tip to JihadWatch)
14, Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, delivered a fiery address on Monday accusing the United States government of orchestrating desecrations of the Koran by right-wing American Christian groups last weekend.

Produced by Political Islam.com
Publisher: Bill Warner; Edited by Asma Marwan
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October 3, 2010 11:49pm
WebWrat

ABC guest says, “The West will be governed by Shari’a and the flag of Islam will fly over the White House”

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2010/10/03/abc-guest-says-the-west-will-be-governed-by-sharia-and-the-flag-of-islam-willfly-over-the-white-house/
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October 4, 2010 7:23am
WebWrat

Acts of Terrorism
and Violence
(April September 1997)
http://www.adl.org/terror/acts_terrorism/11_acts_terr.asp

April 3-6, 1997: Islamic militants killed 119 people in seven separate attacks in villages east, west and south of Algiers, including 52 people in the Medea region.

April 10, 1997: The body of Israeli soldier Sharon Edri, missing for seven months, was found in the West Bank. Edri had been kidnapped and murdered by a Hamas terrorist cell.

April 14, 1997: Armed Islamic Group extremists killed 30 people in a village south of Algiers.

April 22-23, 1997: Islamic militants massacred 140 people in three villages south of Algiers.

April 25, 1997: A bomb hidden under railway tracks south of Algiers killed 21 people.

April 26, 1997: Two teen-age girls were found stabbed to death in a nature reserve near Jerusalem.

May 15, 1997: Fifty armed men attacked a village south of Algiers and massacred 34 people.

May 25, 1997: Islamic extremists from the Abu Sayyaf Group in the Philippines beheaded five people.

May 29, 1997: Islamic militants killed 14 people in a mountain hamlet southwest of Algiers.

June 1-2, 1997: Three bombs in Algiers killed at least 18 people.

June 14-16, 1997: Islamic militants killed 68 people in three attacks, two in Algiers.

June 19, 1997: A bomb exploded in a movie theater in Algiers killing two people.

July 5-8, 1997: Islamic militants killed 61 people in the Medea region of Algeria.

July 12-13, 1997: Islamic militants slit the throats of 44 villagers in the Medea region of Algeria.

July 14, 1997: A bomb exploded at a market in Algiers killing at least 21 people.

July 19-23, 1997: In separate raids on two Algerian villages, 56 people were murdered.

July 22, 1997: Six policemen were shot dead by suspected Muslim militants in el-Minya, south of Cairo.

July 25, 1997: In attacks on hamlets south of Algiers, 28 people were killed.

July 25, 1997: Suspected Muslim militants from the Moro Islamic Liberation Front killed three family members in a southern Philippine province.

July 26-27, 1997: Islamic militants killed 64 people in two villages south of Algiers.

July 29-30, 1997: Forty-one people were massacred south of Algiers and three people were killed when two bombs exploded south of Algiers.

July 30, 1997: Hamas suicide bombers killed 16 people and wounded more than 170 others in two consecutive suicide bombings in the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem.

July 30, 1997: A car bomb killed eight people and wounded 25 on a crowded street in Algiers.

July 30-31, 1997: In a series of massacres outside Algiers, 100 people were killed.

August 3-4, 1997: In a series of village massacres south of Algiers, between 75 and 110 people were murdered.

August 5-8, 1997: Islamic militants killed 68 people in a series of massacres and bombings south of Algiers.

August 10, 1997: Hezbollah killed an Israeli soldier in southern Lebanon.

August 19, 1997: An anti-government militant killed two state troopers, a judge and a newspaper editor in a town in New Hampshire.

August 19, 1997: The Egyptian terror group Jamaa Islamiya claimed responsibility for killing four policemen and two civilians in the southern Egyptian province of Asyut.

August 20, 1997: An Algerian film director was gunned down near his home in an Algiers suburb.

August 21, 1997: Islamic militants killed 63 villagers in Souhane, south of Algiers. A bomb exploded at a market in Medea, south of Algiers, killing one person.

August 24, 1997: Islamic militants murdered 29 people in a village near Medea, south of Algiers. In two suburbs of Algiers, nine people were killed.

August 25, 1997: At least four people were killed when a bomb exploded in a crowded market in Algiers.

August 26, 1997: Islamic militants killed 64 people in Beni Ali, south of Algiers.

August 28, 1997: A bomb exploded near a mosque in Algiers killing eight people. Five children were killed in attacks in west Algeria and 16 people were killed in attacks on villages in the southwest.

August 29, 1997: Islamic militants slaughtered at least 98 and possibly as many as 300 people in the Sidi Moussa district south of Algiers.

August 30, 1997: In two attacks south of Algiers, 47 people were slashed to death.

September 4, 1997: Hamas suicide bombers killed five Israelis on a crowded street in Jerusalem.

September 5-6, 1997: Islamic militants murdered 63 people in the Algiers suburb of Beni Messous and killed nine people in the Saida and Miliana regions of Algeria.

September 6, 1997: Islamic militants from Jamaa Islamiya shot dead three family members in a village south of Cairo.

September 9, 1997: Two people were killed when a bomb exploded in a village south of Algiers.

September 18, 1997: Suspected Islamic militants attacked a tour bus in Cairo with automatic weapons and gasoline bombs killing nine Germans and their Egyptian driver.

September 18, 1997: An Israeli soldier was killed by Hezbollah in southern Lebanon.

September 19, 1997: Islamic militants killed seven people in Abouyene, a village on the Algerian-Moroccan border.

September 21, 1997: Islamic militants killed 53 people in Beni-Slimane, south of Algiers.

September 23, 1997: At least 85 and possibly up to 200 people were killed in an attack by Islamic militants in the eastern Algiers suburb of Baraki. Three motorists were slain by Islamic militants west of Algiers and a bomb exploded in a cafe east of Algiers killing one person.

September 26-27, 1997: South of Algiers, Islamic militants attacked a village killing 15 people and a village school killing 15 people.

September 29, 1997: Islamic militants killed 48 people in the village of Sidi Serhane, south of Algiers, and murdered 19 people in three separate incidents in suburbs of Algiers.

September 29, 1997: An Israeli soldier was killed by Hezbollah in southern Lebanon.
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October 4, 2010 7:31am
WebWrat

http://www.adl.org/main_Terrorism/default.htm
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October 4, 2010 7:32am
Pete George

Nearly a quarter of the world’s population are Muslims, so it’s not hard to deduce that there will be some shitty things done by Muslims, and there will; be some crappy Islamic governments. It will also be easy to search and find bad news about Muslims. All many of the posts here indicate is obsessions with cherry picking the worst news from a quarter of the world. It would be just as easy to find and repeat crap from Russia or China or South Africa or even find crappy things done by the US.

If you want to show up the slanted MSM why don’t you try something other than unbalanced obsessional digs at a competing religion? Try http://www.interfaithalliance.org/ or some of the other groups trying to be positive, just once in a while, might be revelationary. Unless you just want to always try and stir up crap.
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October 4, 2010 7:47am
joana

sorry PG you are wrong..it is not possible to find just as much ”crap” your word not mine , about any other group. Muslims are their own worst enemies and our worst enemies tho’ you of course can’t see this yet. You determinedly try to defend them but really you are trying to defend the indefensible.
A total lack of freedom . hardly any education for anyone , no education for girls , no freedom for women..women wearing hot ghastly uncomfortable shrouds , women being hit on the head with bricks on a daily basis in Kabul and other parts of Afghanistan [ When my Auntie was the first person to be writing children’s books for the children of Kabul in their own language , Kabul was quite a modern place with men and women wearing western dress , men and women mixing freely , going to university together , many women trained as doctors etc..look at Kabul now under your great cause] sexual assaults , epidemics of gang rape , acid mutilations , amputations , hands legs ..one of each . ears , noses , honour killings , child brides , young girls in NZ are being taken out of school to marry 40 yr old codgers from overseas..just another immigration rort..abandoned , children , abandoned babies , public hangings , public stonings , public beheadings..boredom , lethargy , no science , no patents , no inventions ,no money other than oil money , no original thought..a ghastly fatalism….etc etc etc…
And shall I say for the millionth time, islam is not a religion. Italy has very wisely removed the status of religion from this ghastly evil ideology. It claims and demands all sorts of thing under the guise of being a religion..and many naive people , particularly Christians , think they have to treat it as they would other branches of christianity or other benign religions because they very mistakenly believe that it is a religion.
All I can really say to you PG is that someday soon I hope you find a new cause. The one you are currently championing is a lost cause.
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October 4, 2010 9:30am
Pete George

I’m not trying to defend the worst of Islam. It isn’t a cause I have any influence over nor have a lot of interest in. I just get sick of the daily repeat lists of Muslim scaremongering that keep appearing here. And it’s hardly coincidental that the same regulars who keep bashing Muslims also try to bash me because I don’t agree with their version of religion and their version of an ideal society.

We have a lot worse problems in New Zealand than an Islamic threat.
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October 4, 2010 9:40am
joana

I don’t think anyone is bashing you..least I try not too…Islam IS scarey but you don’t seem to have been very exposed to it.
What problems do we have in NZ that are worse than the islamic threat?
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October 4, 2010 3:04pm
Kris K

joana 3:04 pm,

What problems do we have in NZ that are worse than the islamic threat?

Being bored to death by Pete G[e]orge.
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October 4, 2010 3:14pm
Pete George

What problems do we have in NZ that are worse than the Islamic threat?

Crime. Economy. Employment levels. Productivity. Welfare dependency. Government bloat. Standard of political representation. Quality of news and current affairs coverage, especially TV. Otago rugby.

Kris – maybe you could try a different approach here then. I have a lot of interesting discussions with a wide range of people.
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October 4, 2010 3:15pm
joana

Pete…
Without freedom we have nothing. Islam takes away EVERYONE’S freedom.
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October 4, 2010 3:41pm

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