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October 19, 2010 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 19 October 2010

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General Debate

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Inventory2

This must be one of Rod Emmerson’s best-ever cartoons:

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/10/emmerson-on-labour.html

It deserves to be first at Farrar’s!!
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October 19, 2010 8:03am
Pauleastbay

I am prepared to have my kids at home for the rest of the year.

Fuck the PPTA

The government should take 25% off their offer for every strike day.

No appeasement
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October 19, 2010 8:07am
ciaron

FFS, if the teachers can’t work out that there’s no money to give them a raise with, do you really want them teaching your kids?
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October 19, 2010 8:10am
Sofia

from yesterday’s “Listener on National Standards” –
“Hands up those who agree with this proposal. Not only should there be national standards in schools, but the government should pay schools bonuses of up to $100,000 if they demonstrate improvements in the literacy and numeracy achievement standards of their pupils.”

So there was a little primary school in Raupo with a largely Maori enrolment where excellent teachers managed to raise an abysmal 25% level in overall standards to 40%, still below average, but saving dozens of children from aimless unemployment or the most basic jobs.
Meanwhile rather lazy teachers in an up-market suburb of Auckland worked just hard enough to push their already smart students from 60% to 70%.
And so the ministry officials, who as children had extremely lazy teachers push their 75% levels to 80%, gave all the teachers in the higher achieving posh Auckland school bonuses of $ 50,000, and even $ 100,000, and most of the better students became real estate agents, because, as well as school zoning [the legacy of Tomorrow’s Schools] they now had league tables for eager ambitious parents to pursue, and so that particular suburb became self-fulfilling in a spectacular manner, and everyone lived happily ever after.
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October 19, 2010 8:10am
jaba

after reading entries on Labours Redalrt, I am finally feeling a little better .. almost EVERY posting is filled with the word UNION .. at last the unions are on a come back to move the non union MP’s out, Goff will be one, as it gives voters a clear difference between Red and Blue
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October 19, 2010 8:13am
Murray

Those teachers really care about the kids don’t they. They care so much they’ll screw with their futures because the teachers want more money when no one else is getting a pay rise.
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October 19, 2010 8:19am
dad4justice

Good luck Mr Mason. The light of truth is powerful.
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October 19, 2010 8:22am
first time caller

Journalists never mention the Labour party in connection with the unions…why is this?
It would then be so obvious for uninformed voters that these protesters are the Labour party and would help with clarity.

Or do you think everyone works that out for themselves?
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October 19, 2010 8:28am
Murray

Jounos have unions too.
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October 19, 2010 8:32am
jaba

yep, the EMPU run by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chicken Little
I love the demand for classes less than 30. I am sure that this has been a issue for decades so demand it while we are in financial difficulties
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October 19, 2010 8:36am
James Stephenson

I love the demand for classes less than 30

That’s the “we care about the kids, no honest, really we do” window-dressing.
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October 19, 2010 8:56am
ciaron

And what did Lairbour do about class size reduction in their 9 years?, obviously nothing significant or we wouldn’t have a problem.
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October 19, 2010 9:06am
wreck1080

@ciaron: they made promises. That is all.

In 2005 Trevor Mallard promised that no new entrant class would have more than 15 pupils.

My son started school in 2008, and there were over 30 in his class.
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October 19, 2010 9:12am
jaba

I had a comment on a recent Redalrt subject where I suggested that I preferred to distribute my tax cut myself instead of Goff doing it for me .. someone called Draco T Bastard (god knows where the Draco T came from) called me a thief. gee wizz, over 36 years of paying tax without interruption and I’m a thief of the peoples taxes
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October 19, 2010 9:18am
MikeNZ

daily freedom and liberty alert.

http://www.meforum.org/2762/coptic-persecution-mubarak
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October 19, 2010 9:19am
ciaron

I have real concerns about the intelligence of teachers who think the current economic climate is an ideal situation to demand more money. I honestly think they save up all their grievances untill there is a National government to whinge about.
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October 19, 2010 9:23am
MikeNZ

Ciaron
I don’t think it isn’t beyond the bounds of possibility that members of the teachers unions executive haven’t discussed and thought through co-ordinating with andrew little and his people at empu and other unions and others within the labour party to make the environment difficult for national to do the work it needs to do to right the economy and fullfill its promise of national standards.
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October 19, 2010 9:35am
mattyroo

I’ve seen it all now: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10681486 Kids being taught how to be real estate salesmen at school.

Jesusfuckingchrist, can someone enlighten me on how this is going to add to productivity of the country? We need less shysters running round spruiking a deadend ponzi scheme not more!
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October 19, 2010 9:40am
MikeNZ

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2010/10/vanishing-christians-of-middle-east.html

Meanwhile growing Muslim migration into Europe raises questions about the future of Christianity even in the West. If Christians are denied basic civil rights even in moderate Muslim countries, what will their fate be if France and Germany go the way of Byzantium? The fact that Christians do not generally enjoy equal rights in the Muslim world, suggests that they would also not enjoy such rights in Eurabia. The root of the problem lies in Sharia, Islamic law, which treats non-Muslims and women as second-class citizens.

Protecting Christians in the Muslim world requires working to replace laws based on Islamic jurisprudence, with laws based on objective secular standards that treat all religions equally. But this is likely to prove impossible. The governments of countries like Egypt are already under pressure by Islamists, who gain popular support by accusing them of being puppets of the West and disloyal to Islam. Applying pressure to the governments themselves cannot significantly shift the balance. Especially since the reign of those like Mubarak is endangered by the rise of the Islamists determined to overthrow the government and replace it with an Islamic state.

The real problem underlying it all is Islam. The question is what can be done about it.

It’s not just Christians in Muslim countries they are just the canary in the mine, it’s all non-muslim citizen.
This is our problem as if we do nothing we are giving in to it for here too.
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October 19, 2010 9:45am
bhudson

The roading tax collectors are at it again…

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4247610/Police-target-Labour-Weekend-speeders

“Police will operate a reduced speed tolerance to 4kmh (it is normally 10kmh) over any speed limit for the official holiday period (4pm Friday 22 October through to 6am Tuesday 26 October).”

I’m not advocating against road safety, but has anyone noticed that the normal 10kmh tolerance that was reduced to 5kmh over the last long weekend, is now being further reduced to 4kmh??

There is a difference between policing our roads for safety and helping to fill the tax coffers now that we are all spending less
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October 19, 2010 9:53am
Brian Smaller

4kph is less than the margin of error on most speedometers.
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October 19, 2010 10:01am
Murray

I see little Jimmy Sleep tried to bullshit Tau and got spanked for it. So he went crying to mummy about the big bad man who picked on him. http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/national/4246439/MP-accused-of-bullyboy-tactics

You’re in the real world now little man and you can;t just go round making shit up. Not like we’ve seen you doing that before now is it. You’re a classless act Jimmy, a real labour man… boy. Whatever.
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October 19, 2010 10:02am
Ryan Sproull

It’s not just Christians in Muslim countries they are just the canary in the mine, it’s all non-muslim citizen.
This is our problem as if we do nothing we are giving in to it for here too.

Religious freedom and minority rights under attack in some countries. We should protect these things in New Zealand.
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October 19, 2010 10:03am
Murray

Just the minorities Ryan?
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October 19, 2010 10:05am
Ryan Sproull

Oh, all rights, Murray. Just you happened to be talking specifically of religious intolerance and persecution of minorities.
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October 19, 2010 10:08am
Viking2

The reason the teachers never cuased problems for Clark and co is that they just gave them what they wanted after a minor amount of posturing.
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October 19, 2010 10:09am
Murray

In this country Ryan religious intollerence is directed at the majority religion.
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October 19, 2010 10:13am
Viking2

Call to dump KiwiSaver subsidies

A taxpayer subsidy of up to $1042 a year for each KiwiSaver member should be abolished, argues a business lobby group.

And not before time. Justanother rort on the business community and taxpayers generally.
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October 19, 2010 10:18am
Ryan Sproull

In this country Ryan religious intollerence is directed at the majority religion.

Yes, but I’m sure he’ll find another job in broadcasting soon enough.
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October 19, 2010 10:21am
MikeNZ

Good point Bhudson

What was the point of 10kph but as a leeway of error for speedometers?
Does moving it down to 4kph mean all speedometers have got better?
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October 19, 2010 10:36am
big bruv

James Sleep getting a smack down from Tau, that is the best news I have heard in a long time.
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October 19, 2010 10:38am
Jack5

Gareth Morgan never stops talking, and sometimes he talks baloney.

In today’s NZ Hooer-ald he opens his financial sermon thus:

If foreigners can’t use New Zealand dollars to buy New Zealand assets why would they be willing to hold New Zealand dollars?

To earn our high interest rates, that’s why.

Morgan must know about the carry trade, the vast international currency trade that sees speculators borrow in low-interest countries such as Japan and invest in high interest countries such as NZ. It is this that has made the NZ dollar one of the dozen most traded currencies in the world. This money has flowed to NZ lenders, not directly into investment such as agricultural land, otherwise the country would have been totally bought in a week or two.

Given Morgan must know this, his statement implies he will say anything in support of his argument for near-open doors to foreigners who want to buy our land, OR Morgan is losing his marbles.
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October 19, 2010 10:39am
malcolm

A couple of excellent pieces by Gareth Morgan on land sales to foreigners:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10681447

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10679838

edit: you beat me to it – Jack
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October 19, 2010 10:39am
MikeNZ

Religious freedom and minority rights under attack in some countries. We should protect these things in New Zealand.

I agree Ryan but it is pointless (in this global and connected world) if we don’t ensure that the rights we allow and protect here isn’t done in all the international bodies and forums we live in too.
It is not enough to say it’s in another culture in another place because other cultures come here because of our safety and freedom (and benefits perhaps :0)!
Similarly they have votes in the places we do.
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October 19, 2010 10:40am
malcolm

To earn our high interest rates, that’s why.

That was his point. If we spend more than we earn then we must either borrow, or sell. Or a bit of both. If you cut off the option to sell, then interest rates will go up.
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October 19, 2010 10:43am
Grendel

Big billboard on cable st (i think, the street alongside te papa).

5 Losers get Kerry dumped
vote for a loser get two votes
vote for a winner get 1 vote
RIP Democracy wellys.

it would appear that not everyone is happy about the election result.

i mean i would rather have a block of wood as mayor than a green (wood is at least practical), but this is still a bit sour grapes.
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October 19, 2010 10:53am
malcolm

Does moving it down to 4kph mean all speedometers have got better?

No. Electronic speedos (still a minority on the road) are more accurate than the old mechanical ones, but there is still the significant error introduced by the variation in wheel diameter due to wear, pressure and load. +/- 10% is probably fair. 4% seems unfair.
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October 19, 2010 10:55am
malcolm

5 Losers get Kerry dumped
vote for a loser get two votes
vote for a winner get 1 vote
RIP Democracy wellys.

Someone has the time and effort to put that up, but not the intelligence to understand STV? Just confirms the old adage: “Those Who Know the Least Yell the Loudest”
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October 19, 2010 10:58am
Jack5

The foreign-controlled NZ Hooer-ald has all stops open as it plays its current anthem: “Open door please for foreigners to buy our farmland”.

In addition to the Morgan piece mentioned in my earlier post (10.39), it quotes today Infometrics senior economist John Carran warning against tighter controls on sale of land.

In the first instance it would lower land prices so existing land owners, which are predominantly New Zealanders, would experience a reduction in their wealth.

The second is to the extent that it causes perceptions that we don’t welcome foreign investment or foreign investment is riskier in New Zealand.

In other words, allow the land-price bubble to continue please. Many newish dairy farms are making insufficient return on their investment to be economic – because of the high price paid for land. Carran’s solution is to drive the price higher????

Secondly, the warning about perceptions “we don’t welcome foreign investment in NZ”. Yeah? When the same foreigners are prepared to put money into politically unstable hellholes around the world? The foreigners come here for decent financial return, and good on them, when their investment benefits the country with new or improved industry, new technology, and potential additions to our growth. They don’t come here to get pats on the back for bringing their money in.
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October 19, 2010 11:07am
Grendel

whats interesting about STV over FPP is it allows a split vote to not hurt the people splitting.

So you can drop 5 candidates all from your party into an election, and rather than them cannibalising themselves, the top one gets all teh votes anyway, whereas the 1 person from the other party only has their one vote.

what this can do, is potentially have a single candidate drowned out by the others, with no fear of the others actually losing as one of them will absorb all their mates lower preferences.

the more i think about it, the more i think FPP would be better for the mayoral part of the election, or at least any part that has only one winner.

billboard is still bad form imho.
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October 19, 2010 11:08am
Jack5

Re Malcolm at 10.43:

..If we spend more than we earn then we must either borrow, or sell. Or a bit of both.

What about Australia, the other high interest rate target for hot currency? Need to sell or borrow do they? This after being hailed by the Wall Street Journal as the most robust veteran of the world financial crisis? Yeah right.

Interest rates are also about controlling inflation.

The most interesting thing IMHO about the bid by flaky Natural Dairy bid for the Crafar farms, is the way the National Party establishment has tried to conflate opposition to this sale with a rhetorical position that critics of the sale to Natural Dairy oppose all foreign investment in NZ. That is not true.

The National response increases suspicions about donations to National by some Auckland Chinese business interests and suspicions these interests may also have links with Natural Dairy and/or the businesswoman linked with it and involved in bankruptcy proceedings. Labour may also have links with these Auckland Chinese business interests.
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October 19, 2010 11:18am
Luc Hansen

Y262.

Y not?
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October 19, 2010 11:36am
Luc Hansen

I see MikeNZ has posted his compulsory daily anti-Muslim rant.

What happened to demerits for trolling?

Oh, could it be that the demeriter approves of these blatant displays of Islamophobia?

Surely not!
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October 19, 2010 11:41am
RightNow

bhudson “I’m not advocating against road safety, but has anyone noticed that the normal 10kmh tolerance that was reduced to 5kmh over the last long weekend, is now being further reduced to 4kmh??”

That 4kmh is the same as the 5kmh – which was never 5kmh anyway. The lowest level ticket for speeding is for exceeding the limit by 5kmh or more. You would have been clocked for 105. Basically they’ve just worded it now to be more honest.

I have noticed generally traffic now sits at about 5-10k under the speed limit. Most people will be too scared to let their speedo go over the limit, and will not have calibrated to find out if their speedo is true. In most cars the speedo reads at least 5k over the true speed, plus there is the error for tyre wear. I’ve calibrated my speedo against roadside speed displays. Mine ranges from 5k above true to 8k above true, depending on the state of my tyres.
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October 19, 2010 11:46am
Redbaiter

“What happened to demerits for trolling?”

Something you have admitted you come here for?

Wherein you advocate murder, lie, smear and falsely accuse, and excuse all of this cowardly and degenerate behaviour on the grounds that you were “joking”??

You’re not funny. You’re just an odious liar, smearer and coward. Don’t be mistaken as to how you come across and how you are viewed.
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October 19, 2010 11:47am
Fletch

Oh, could it be that the demeriter approves of these blatant displays of Islamophobia?

Luc, please point out then what is nonfactual in what Mike has posted. And if you can’t find anything nonfactual, then why is it wrong to show those truths?
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October 19, 2010 11:51am
Inventory2

Another nice rattle ‘n’ roll for Christchurch – 5.0 at 9km deep; hope that earth stops moving too much before we head down there for the weekend.
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October 19, 2010 11:57am
trueblue

Is this the same Jimmy Sleep bullshitter.
http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=jimmy+sleep&hl=en&sa=G&prmd=v&source=univ&tbs=vid:1&tbo=u&ei=G9C8TLaXBMP48AaTypDWDg&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CBsQqwQwAA
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October 19, 2010 11:57am
MT_Tinman

# Inventory2 (5,291) Says:
October 19th, 2010 at 11:57 am

Another nice rattle ‘n’ roll for Christchurch – 5.0 at 9km deep; hope that earth stops moving too much before we head down there for the weekend.

Nothing “nice” about that bastard I2.

One of the longer ones I’ve felt recently.

The after-after shocks are pissing me off as well.
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October 19, 2010 12:04pm
MikeNZ

Sorry guys, I don’t get LUC as he is my RIP.
I am not an Islamaphobe and reject the accusation/labeling by the LUC’s of this world with emotional painting words in order to nullify my voice.

Freedom and Liberty is the corner stone of a democracy and whilst it has it’s faults it is still the best option for Human beings to live by. The caveat is that we have common sense and common values.
It is the core reason I support a centre right government over any of the left as they do not seek to control but create an environment whereby we can grow both as people but as a country.

Islam is through Sharia law a wicked and controlling ideology, just like communism was/is.
In fact it is worse as the left/progressives are embracing/protecting things Islamic as it is against the Judeo/Christian ethic and the democratic Western ideal.

If we value our freedoms we need to make sure our leaders (and US to!) don’t “compromise” the pressure towards individuals agencies, forums, trading partners and governments to be democratic/transparent/honest in all they do with the real politic of daily life and income generating needs.

I have NO fear of Islam, it is the useful idiots/appeasers that LUC and others evidence that worries me as they also have a vote.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/10/geert_wilders_and_the_rise_of.html

I could write up China in the same vein but apart from they are one country, IMO Islam is the corporate danger.
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October 19, 2010 12:12pm
MikeNZ

Fletch (1,417) Says:
October 19th, 2010 at 11:51 am

That is the issue with Gert Wilders, nothing he has said is untrue and when activist judges are allowed to curtail truth then we need to take to the streets.
It maybe that to protect democracy and peoples freedoms that we need to replace them forcibly.

but it shouldn’t get to that if we have a voluble and engaged populace.
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October 19, 2010 12:15pm
Pete George

It’s not just Christians in Muslim countries they are just the canary in the mine, it’s all non-muslim citizen.
This is our problem as if we do nothing we are giving in to it for here too.

I’m not aware that we are giving in to anything here. Fears of creeping Sharia law don’t seem to be based on anything concrete in NZ, compared to the actual effects of creeping Union laws and industrial influence via UK immigrants.
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October 19, 2010 12:19pm
Fletch

Pete, it’s not just based on what we do here, it’s coming from the UN as well. Last year Obama co-sponsored a bill with Egypt at the UN that limits speech they claimed was “abuse . . . [that] constitutes an act of racial or religious discrimination.”
The largest voting bloc in the UN is the OIC (Organization of the Islamic Conference) which is an “Association of 56 Islamic states promoting Muslim solidarity in economic, social, and political affairs”. When they talk about “racial or religious discrimination”, they’re really talking about making a crime any speech that is critical of Islam. So, in truth, Obama may have just destroyed America’s First Amendment right of Free Speech by singing up to this.

MORE

The site comments –

.In other words, from now on, things like those famous Mohammad Cartoons will be against international law.

If it it’s a UN resolution, then won’t NZ and other countries who are part of the UN have to follow it?
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October 19, 2010 1:26pm
Fletch

Ps, hopefully the resolution will not pass this year…
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October 19, 2010 1:43pm
Luc Hansen

Thanks guys and MikeNZ

That worked 🙂

And all while I was having a nice stroll with the toddler!
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October 19, 2010 1:57pm
backster

Mike…Luc will take twice as much offence now that you have condemned both Islamism and Communisn.

For my part I think the evidence tends to show that the danger is not from Muslim immigrants, many fleeing unjust
repressive regimes. Its from the first generation of the NZ born offspring who will accept the rantings an urgings to jihad of terroists leaders posing as religious nabobs.
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October 19, 2010 1:58pm
Pete George

I don’t know Fletch, I thought a lot of UN stuff was ignored when it suited. I’ve only had a very brief look but I suspect I’d oppose the Defamation of Religions resolution – I don’t see how it could be properly defined or policed even if it did make good sense (and it doesn’t seem to do that either).

This is an odd vote of support for Labour:

McDonald’s chief backs GST-free fruit, vege push

McDonald’s New Zealand Managing Director Mark Hawthorne says the policy could see his company taking more fat off the menu.

“It makes a lot of sense taking GST off healthy food. It would help us to sell more healthy food.”

It’s not odd that MacDonalds would try and get some commercial advantage from a change in GST, their bottom line will be company good rather than country or greater good.

It is odd that they would be supporting a proposed Labour change that wouldn’t apply to them anyway (as I understand it) – unless they sold whole fruit or vegetables on their own.
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October 19, 2010 2:02pm
Ryan Sproull

I agree Ryan but it is pointless (in this global and connected world) if we don’t ensure that the rights we allow and protect here isn’t done in all the international bodies and forums we live in too.
It is not enough to say it’s in another culture in another place because other cultures come here because of our safety and freedom (and benefits perhaps :0)!
Similarly they have votes in the places we do.

Mike,

I’m very wary of describing large numbers of people as “they”.

I do agree that we should be concerned with the rights we uphold here being promoted internationally, not because I’m concerned about “other cultures coming here”, but because human beings, like us, suffer in those countries where these rights are ignored.
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October 19, 2010 2:09pm
Luc Hansen

Fletch

If I was to respond to all of Mike’s cut and paste jobs it would become a fulltime job! Wanna offer me a salary to give up my day (well, night) job?

Generally, Mike’s problem is that he fixates on Islam at the expense of the wider issues. For example, his cut and paste approves of Mubarak, a ruthless, oppressive, torturing, murdering dictator who is in the process of ensuring his son succeeds him and continues his reign of terror. So people organise their resistance around their focal points, and Islam is a particularly strong focal point in the ME.

If Christianity is under threat, that’s not the fault of Islam, and demonising Muslims is not the answer. Christians need to look at themselves.

And other than that, Mike’s constant refrain is to keep Muslims out, which is discrimination of the grounds of religion and against the conventions we sign up to, and a moot point because so few qualify under our rules, anyway. I allege that it is also racist, since he concentrates on non-white countries, and never slags off ethnic European Muslims eg Bosnians or Albanians.

And to come on here posting his diatribes then claim he is not Islamophobic displays a tenuous grasp on reality, as evidenced by this:

It maybe that to protect democracy and peoples freedoms that we need to replace them forcibly.

A domestic terrorist in the making?
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October 19, 2010 2:25pm
Luc Hansen

Lockwood’s having a busy afternoon.
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October 19, 2010 2:27pm
kowtow

MikeNZ and others ,rejoice mainstream Europe is finally waking from its dangerous slumber.
Merkel has pronounced multiculturalism dead and now the state premier of Bavaria has joined her.

http://www.newnation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202547&highlight=merkel
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October 19, 2010 2:27pm
lofty

Just musing folks but…if a muslim activist gets 72 virgins upon his heroic demise when he gets to heaven…is it heaven for the virgins???

Their reward seems to be to become a sex slave for a terrorist…mmmmm..doesn’t sound like heaven to me!
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October 19, 2010 2:30pm
Ryan Sproull

In related news, 13% of Germans are getting nostalgic.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2010/1015/Why-13-percent-of-Germans-would-welcome-a-Fuehrer
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October 19, 2010 2:31pm
Kris K

MikeNZ 9:19 am,

daily freedom and liberty alert.

http://www.meforum.org/2762/coptic-persecution-mubarak

Excellent article – well worth a read.
From your link:

Egypt Cuts a Deal: Christians Fed to Muslim ‘Lions’

by Raymond Ibrahim
Hudson New York
October 18, 2010

For centuries, the Copts — Egypt’s Christian, indigenous inhabitants — have been subject to persecution, discrimination, humiliation, and over all subjugation in their homeland (etymologically, “Copt” simply means “Egyptian”). In the medieval era, such treatment was a standard aspect of sharia’s dhimmi codes, first ratified under Caliph Omar in the 7th century and based on Koran 9:29. Conversely, during the colonial era and into the mid 20th century, as Egypt experimented with westernization and nationalism, religious discrimination was markedly subdued. Today, however, as Egypt all but spearheads the Islamist movement — giving the world Sayyid Qutb, the Muslim Brotherhood, and Aymen Zawahiri in the process — that is, as Egypt reverts to its medieval character, the Copts find themselves again in a period of severe persecution.

And there appears to be no one to stop it — not even those most accountable: America’s friend and ally, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and his government. Indeed, recent events indicate that the Mubarak regime is intentionally inciting Egypt’s Muslims against the Copts. […]

Considering the citizenship rights Copts enjoyed in the early to mid 20th century, how did things come to this pass? Much of this can be traced to Mubarak’s predecessor, Anwar Sadat, who altered Egypt’s Constitution — by adding Article 2, “sharia is the principle source of legislation” — only to be rewarded, ironically, with assassination by the Islamist “Frankenstein monster” he had empowered. Since then, there has been a tacit agreement between the government and the Islamists. As Youssef Ibrahim puts it, the agreement “turned over to Islamists control in media, education, and government administrations in return for allowing Mr. Mubarak’s rule to go on unchallenged, setting the stage … for his son, Gamal, to succeed him. As part of the deal, [Mubarak] agreed to feed Egypt’s Christians to the growing Islamic beast.” […]

More obvious proof of the government’s complicity is the fact that, not only has it not prevented or dispersed the increasingly rabid demonstrations against the Copts — the way it viciously and unequivocally does whenever any protests are directed against itself — but Egyptian security, as Magdi Khalil affirmed in a phone conversation, actually facilitate, and sometimes participate, in these mass demonstrations. After all, Islamists who publicly call for the death of the Pope do so, writes Ibrahim Eissa, “knowing quite well that State Security will not touch them, since demonstrations are directed against the Pope and not the President, the Church and not the inheritance issue [Gamal Mubarak as successor of his father]. Those who go out in Jihad against ‘inheritance,’ democracy and election fraud are beaten mercilessly by security forces but those who go out to incite sectarian violence between Muslims and Christians believe …that they are the friends and ‘buddies’ of the police and the State Security.”

As history teaches, whenever a majority group casts all its woes onto a minority group, great tragedy often follows. This is especially so when the majority group in question begins taking on an Islamist—that is, intolerant, violent, and medieval — character. Yet if Egypt’s “secular” government and U.S. ally is willing to sacrifice the Coptic scapegoat to appease the ever-burgeoning Islamist monster it has been nurturing for some four decades, to whom can Egypt’s Christians look for relief?

[Emphasis mine]

So much for separation of church [mosque] and state.
Once again we see the so called secular state appeasing Islam and, surprise, suprise, the ‘secular’ state is complicit with the Islamists in their persecution of, in this case, Coptic Christians.

Wherever we see Islam becoming more dominant, even in so called ‘moderate’ Muslim and/or ‘secular’ states, we see the ever increasing rise in adherence to Sharia, and the associated persecution of Jews, Christians, and non-Muslims. Where the state at best turns a blind eye to Islamic atrocities, and at worst is actively involved in the persecution of non Muslims.

As myself and others continue to warn:
Do we really want to allow the continual immigration of Muslims into New Zealand? Especially when even so called ‘Moderate’ Muslims desire to see the implementation of Sharia. We know that as Sharia grows in influence that persecution for non Muslims is sure to follow. Is this the New Zealand we want for us and our children? I say “No” – who will stand with me?

“First they came for the Jews, then they came for the Christians, then … “
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October 19, 2010 2:41pm
big bruv

If you can tune into question time, Key has Labour on the ropes and is dishing out one hell of a hiding to Goff and Labour.

The son that Helen never had is desperately trying to shut Key down such is their desperation to save Goff from further embarrassment.

If this was a boxing match Goff would have been counted out fifteen minutes ago.
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October 19, 2010 2:43pm
nickb

Ugh.. Darren Hughes…. MP’s like him are the reason Labour continues to languish in the polls.

An indoctrinated robot, from high school straight to university, then on to a public sector job (i.e teaching/unionism/lecturing etc) then straight into politics for decades.
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October 19, 2010 2:47pm
kowtow

As always Luc the bundle of bullshit.
“Islam a focus of resistance”, quite, so its not a religion or a race,it’s a political ideology that must be resisted in the same way it “resists” what it sees as it’s opponents. To fail to would be to betray our own values and ideals.

Luc also uses the classic leftist ruse of claiming discrimination and racism which multiculturalists are wont to do to stifle free speech and debate. Steyyn ,Wilders and many others have been the victims of this legislatively re inforced attack on freedom.A very dangerous trend masked as progressivism.
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October 19, 2010 2:51pm
stephen

If you can tune into question time, Key has Labour on the ropes and is dishing out one hell of a hiding to Goff and Labour.

On what issue? Leadership?
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October 19, 2010 2:52pm
Fletch

Just musing folks but…if a muslim activist gets 72 virgins upon his heroic demise when he gets to heaven…is it heaven for the virgins???

Good point lofty, because according to Muhammad, the majority of Hell is made up of women.
From the Hadith, Bukhari (2:28) –

Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:

The Prophet said: “I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful.” It was asked, “Do they disbelieve in Allah?” (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, “They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, ‘I have never received any good from you.”

Also –

The Prophet said, “I looked at Paradise and saw that the majority of its residents were the poor; and I looked at the (Hell) Fire and saw that the majority of its residents were women.”
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October 19, 2010 2:57pm
Ryan Sproull

Once again we see the so called secular state appeasing Islam and, surprise, suprise, the ‘secular’ state is complicit with the Islamists in their persecution of, in this case, Coptic Christians.

Kris,

A state that discriminates against people (treats them unequally) on the basis of their religion is not a secular state.

Do we really want to allow the continual immigration of Muslims into New Zealand? Especially when even so called ‘Moderate’ Muslims desire to see the implementation of Sharia. We know that as Sharia grows in influence that persecution for non Muslims is sure to follow. Is this the New Zealand we want for us and our children? I say “No” – who will stand with me?

Moderate Muslims in New Zealand overwhelmingly do not desire to see the implementation of Sharia in New Zealand. If there are some, and I have seen no reason to believe there are, they must be resisted in that endeavour, just as your desire to persecute Muslims must be resisted.

“First they came for the Jews, then they came for the Christians, then … “

That quote, I do not think it means what you think it means.
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October 19, 2010 2:57pm
big bruv

stephen

I am not a huge fan of Key but even I have to admit that he is a bloody good operator in the house, and anyway, any time he dishes out a beating to the socialists then I am all for it.
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October 19, 2010 2:58pm
stephen

I am not a huge fan of Key but even I have to admit that he is a bloody good operator in the house, and anyway, any time he dishes out a beating to the socialists then I am all for it.

Shooting fish in a barrel if it’s in any way related to Chris Carter. But yes one does forget that he’s got plenty of fire in him, though it only seems to appear in the House.
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October 19, 2010 3:01pm
Kris K

MikeNZ 12:12 pm,

… I have NO fear of Islam, it is the useful idiots/appeasers that LUC and others evidence that worries me as they also have a vote.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/10/geert_wilders_and_the_rise_of.html

Indeed, Mike.
From your link:

Geert Wilders and the Rise of Islamic Correctness

Islamic correctness, which criminalizes any criticism of Islam, is a rising force in the world, and not merely in Muslim-majority countries. Even in traditionally tolerant Holland, a combination of misguided liberal multiculturalism and a fear of violence from immigrants has led to a sometimes farcical prosecution. […]

Dutch prosecutors never desired to charge Wilders, but they were in effect “overruled” by the Dutch judiciary:

In 2008, the office of the public prosecutor declined to charge him. The lunatic judges are the ones who’ve been behind this all along, representative as they are of the transnational progressive thinking responsible for having such “crimes” on the books in the first place. In 2009, the Dutch Court of Appeals issued an order essentially overruling the prosecutors and ordering that Wilders be charged.

With refreshing sobriety, Dutch prosecutor Birgit van Roessel argued in her summation that Wilders’ statements were made as an integral part of the public debate

… about the immigration and integration of nonwestern foreigners, especially Muslims. Standpoints can vary considerably and emotions can run high, but … it is a debate that it must be possible to have.

And most importantly, Ms. van Roessel further acknowledged that “[m]any of Wilders’ statements seemed to denounce Islam as an ideology or its growing influence in the Netherlands, rather than being intended as an abuse of Muslims as a people or group.”

During a March 2009 interview with the Boston Globe’s Jeff Jacoby, Wilders had earlier rejected the notion he “hates Muslims” while providing a frank characterization of the totalitarian nature of Islam.

I have nothing against the people. I don’t hate Muslims. But Islam is a totalitarian ideology. It rules every aspect of life – economics, family law, whatever. It has religious symbols, it has a God, it has a book – but it’s not a religion. It can be compared with totalitarian ideologies like Communism or fascism. There is no country where Islam is dominant where you have a real democracy, a real separation between church and state. Islam is totally contrary to our values.

Indeed, what is it about people of average intelligence that they CANNOT separate between “speaking the truth about Islam” and “hating Mulsims”? It seems that to make negative comment about Islam automatically translates to hating ALL Muslims. Talk about missing the point.

By making this latter claim, Wilders shattered a corrosive modern taboo, enforced rigidly and without forgiveness by cultural relativist politicians and government bureaucrats, as well as influential “savants” in media, academia, and religion.

But Wilders’ assessment not only comports with scholarly observations made (primarily) before the advent of the postmodern Western scourge of cultural relativism, it is supported by contemporary hard polling data from 2006/2007 and their more recent follow-up reported February 25, 2009.

At present, overwhelming Muslim majorities — i.e., better than two-thirds (see the weighted average calculated here) of a well-conducted survey of the world’s most significant and populous Arab and non-Arab Muslim countries — want these immoderate outcomes: “strict application” of Shari’a, Islamic Law, and a global Caliphate.

Gee, so two-thirds of Muslims in Muslim majority nations – lets assume that most of this number are ‘MODERATES’ – “want these immoderate outcomes: “strict application” of Shari’a, Islamic Law, and a global Caliphate.”
Bugger! – there goes the ‘moderate’ Muslim definition again.

Specifically, the World Public Opinion.org/ University of Maryland poll (released February 25, 2009) indicated the following about our putative Muslim ally nations of Egypt and Pakistan: 81% of the Muslims of “moderate” Egypt, the largest Arab Muslim nation, desire a “strict” application of Shari’a, Islamic Law; 76% of the Pakistan’s Muslims — one of the most important and sizable non-Arab Muslim populations — also want this outcome. Furthermore, 70% of Egyptian Muslims and 69% of Pakistani Muslims desire the recreation of a “single Islamic state or Caliphate.”
[continues]

Once again – say “Goodbye” to the notion of ‘moderate’ Muslims or ‘moderate’ Islam.

I repeat from my 2:41 pm comment:
“First they came for the Jews, then they came for the Christians, then … “
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October 19, 2010 3:12pm
Kris K

Ryan Sproull 2:57 pm,

Kris,
A state that discriminates against people (treats them unequally) on the basis of their religion is not a secular state.

Exactly, Ryan – hence my use of the phrase “so called secular state”. But Egypt ‘claims’ to be secular.

Moderate Muslims in New Zealand overwhelmingly do not desire to see the implementation of Sharia in New Zealand. If there are some, and I have seen no reason to believe there are, they must be resisted in that endeavour, just as your desire to persecute Muslims must be resisted.

See my 3:12 pm comment regarding so called ‘moderate’ Muslims.

“First they came for the Jews, then they came for the Christians, then … “

That quote, I do not think it means what you think it means.

I know exactly what I think it means because they’re my words 😉
And, to be honest, I think you know what I think it means as well, Ryan.
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October 19, 2010 3:27pm
kowtow

Kris K,
The Copts are indeed the indigenous people of Egypt.
The country was majority Christian,even though ruled by Muslims,until a wave of Arab Muslim immigration in around 13 or 1400’s ,can’t remember exactly. Read that a while ago in a book about the Arabs.

Funny thing about “democracy” there is, if it ever happens the Muslim Brotherhood will take over and that will make for interesting times.
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October 19, 2010 3:29pm
Ryan Sproull

Exactly, Ryan – hence my use of the phrase “so called secular state”. But Egypt ‘claims’ to be secular.

Its secularity would be preferable.

See my 3:12 pm comment regarding so called ‘moderate’ Muslims.

Yes. Can you refer to the survey?

I know exactly what I think it means because they’re my words 😉
And, to be honest, I think you know what I think it means as well, Ryan.

You want the state to discriminate against people for being Muslim. How long before they come for me at your behest?
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October 19, 2010 3:41pm
MikeNZ

backster (741) Says:
October 19th, 2010 at 1:58 pm

I agree wholeheartedly with the content of your reply.

I fear I did not communicate clearly, i had meant those ideologies coming here and becoming more acceptable both here and in the world, because we did not do enough to say No, that is not acceptable for democracy and freedom and liberty.
(possibly for us to even say, no, you can’t come here if that is your position as it is not conducive to western liberal freedom and democracy).
This is the thrust of my point concerning our engagement at the UN and sub agencies of that.
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October 19, 2010 3:45pm
Luc Hansen

From the barely sane Kowtow

Luc also uses the classic leftist ruse of claiming discrimination and racism which multiculturalists are wont to do to stifle free speech and debate

In terms of stifling free speech, MikeNZ is the one threatening to kill Judges. I think being dead pretty well means one is well stifled.

MikeNZ and Kris K, in other jurisdictions would, in fact, be silenced by the laws against hate speech – and these are often enacted and certainly enforced by right wing governments. Wanting to live in peace with one’s fellow human beings is hardly a source of political division.

Anyway, it appears faced with a choice between a brutal dictatorial regime and a democracy where Islamic parties won (aka Turkey) our free speech proponents prefer the dictator. Interesting.
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October 19, 2010 3:45pm
MikeNZ

Ryan
I do agree that we should be concerned with the rights we uphold here being promoted internationally, not because I’m concerned about “other cultures coming here”, but because human beings, like us, suffer in those countries where these rights are ignored.

Again I did not communicate properly and apologise.
It isn’t per se about “them” coming here (being people) though we do have to face up to that as an option, but the Islam-ism the political agent of Sharia and how we deal with those agents and host countries who propagate and enable what is anathema to freedom and democracy.
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October 19, 2010 3:48pm
Ryan Sproull

It isn’t per se about “them” coming here (being people) though we do have to face up to that as an option, but the Islam-ism the political agent of Sharia and how we deal with those agents and host countries who propagate and enable what is anathema to freedom and democracy.

Fair enough. What do you recommend?
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October 19, 2010 3:51pm
MikeNZ

Kris K (3,251) Says:
October 19th, 2010 at 2:41 pm

The point of that article isn’t just about the persecution and the secular state aiding and abetting it, but, they are also citizens of Egypt, they carry the passport.
But they are not equal citizens as Muslim citizens are even in a “secular state” as Sharia is supreme because of the “democracy” of numbers.
This is the issue with Sharia and Political Islamism, it is not the numbers but that it is inimical to freedom and liberty.

This the left refuses to acknowledge, instead they shoot the messenger, paint them with emotional painting words to label and marginalise them and thereby treat the opponents of Islamism as daft or wonkey. They even put words and meanings into what is said to make them seem proponents of illegality. hence prosecuting Wilders with hate crimes.

True facts are true facts, how can that be wrong?
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October 19, 2010 3:55pm
MikeNZ

NickB and big Bruv
May Labour stay at the bottom for the next decade for I suspect national needs that to set us right. It certainly does to change the entitlement mindset and deal to the Socialists/progressives.
Whether the middle class beneficiaries will give them the time to do so remains to be seen.
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October 19, 2010 3:58pm
MikeNZ

Fletch (1,420) Says:
October 19th, 2010 at 2:57 pm

Of all the Hadiths Bukari is considered to be one of the safest of the 5 central Hadiths, so what you’re quoting is classical Islam not some weird sect like aberration.
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October 19, 2010 4:00pm
Kris K

Ryan Sproull 3:41 pm,

See my 3:12 pm comment regarding so called ‘moderate’ Muslims.

Yes. Can you refer to the survey?

The survey is linked to in Mike’s original link which I requoted in my 3:12 pm comment.

You want the state to discriminate against people for being Muslim. How long before they come for me at your behest?

No, I want the state to descriminate against a philosophy which has as its core doctrine the subjugation and destruction of ALL non Muslims nations and individuals.
Just as we descriminated against Nazi Germany in WWII.
Should we not descriminate against evil, Ryan? – you do believe in evil, I presume? – I know I do.
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October 19, 2010 4:11pm
Kris K

Luc H[a]nsen 3:45 pm,

From the barely sane Kowtow

Heh – you have to laugh at the hypocrisy of Lucy lecturing us on what constitutes “sanity”.
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October 19, 2010 4:15pm
MikeNZ

Ryan
Moderate Muslims in New Zealand overwhelmingly do not desire to see the implementation of Sharia in New Zealand. If there are some, and I have seen no reason to believe there are, they must be resisted in that endeavour, just as your desire to persecute Muslims must be resisted.

You label Kris K a persecutor which I have to take on face value is an informed and deliberate act by you.
So you are discounting that he speaks up against Political Islam and Sharia because he values democracy and our Western freedoms brought out of the Judeo/Christian worldview and ethic, but because he wants to persecute Muslims.

I think you are incorrect or worse still being devious, Yes he is a confessed Christian and maybe that is blocking your sense of fairness, but you are incorrect and owe him an apology.

I understand from your previous postings that you are an educate4d person, therefore you have access to the same sources he does and yet you lamely state the above about him, knowing that the phase Islam is in NZ is as a minority and we do not face the same pressures or activation of Dawa they have in the UK and in the EU and are now seeing in the USA.

This is duplicitous of you and puts the tenor of your discourse in a different light.

Further you make a statement for the majority of moderate Muslims in NZ which i would challenge because of two things amongst many.
1. Apart from the stage of Dawa (whereby they would say that) we are in for you to state for a whole people group who 2. each week pray for Allah to be glorified and Sharia be over the space they inhabit.

They do this because that is part of the glory of Allah and the perfect will of Him and all that His prophet worked for in his lifetime. The one who they regard as the perfect man.

All this you as an educated person should be able to understand from the same sources Kris has available to him.

http://www.politicalislam.com/
I don’t intend to get into a to and fro of sources but short of reading the Bukari Hadith alongside the Sira and a Koran this site will take you through political Islam as defined in the Sharia.

This is the reality Kris was referring to for the Copts and that applies in any territory to a greater or lessor degree which is Sharia compliant.

edit – from Kris’s post.

Indeed, what is it about people of average intelligence that they CANNOT separate between “speaking the truth about Islam” and “hating Mulsims”? It seems that to make negative comment about Islam automatically translates to hating ALL Muslims. Talk about missing the point.
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October 19, 2010 4:18pm
Ryan Sproull

No, I want the state to descriminate against a philosophy which has as its core doctrine the subjugation and destruction of ALL non Muslims nations and individuals.

Which means treating people unequally because of what they believe, not because of what they’ve done. That’s evil.

Just as we descriminated against Nazi Germany in WWII.

Nazi Germany was not a person. If it was, it would have been evil to treat it differently because of what it believed, if it had not done anything.

Should we not descriminate against evil, Ryan? – you do believe in evil, I presume? – I know I do.

Yes. It would be evil for the state to discriminate against you for what you believe when you haven’t done anything. It would be similarly evil for the state to discriminate against Muslims for what they believe.
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October 19, 2010 4:19pm
Ryan Sproull

You label Kris K a persecutor which I have to take on face value is an informed and deliberate act by you.

He has said in the past that he wants the state to treat Muslims differently from non-Muslims. If he has changed his mind since then, I apologise.

So you are discounting that he speaks up against Political Islam and Sharia because he values democracy and our Western freedoms brought out of the Judeo/Christian worldview and ethic, but because he wants to persecute Muslims.

I didn’t say that, Mike. I think he wants to persecute Muslims in the name of his ideas of democracy and Judaeo-Christian values. Not “because he wants to persecute Muslims”.

I think you are incorrect or worse still being devious, Yes he is a confessed Christian and maybe that is blocking your sense of fairness, but you are incorrect and owe him an apology.

He has said several times he would like the state to treat Muslims differently from non-Muslims, barring their entry to New Zealand, etc. Again, if he has changed his mind since saying these things, I apologise.

I understand from your previous postings that you are an educate4d person, therefore you have access to the same sources he does and yet you lamely state the above about him, knowing that the phase Islam is in NZ is as a minority and we do not face the same pressures or activation of Dawa they have in the UK and in the EU and are now seeing in the USA.

I am stating things about him that he has stated about himself. Again, if he has changed his mind about wanting the state to treat Muslims differently from non-Muslims, I apologise.

This is duplicitous of you and puts the tenor of your discourse in a different light.

My discourse is based on Kris’s previous statements that he would like the state to treat Muslims differently from non-Muslims. If he has changed his mind about this, I did not get the memo.

Further you make a statement for the majority of moderate Muslims in NZ which i would challenge because of two things amongst many.

I stated that I believe the overwhelming majority of Muslims in New Zealand do not want to implement sharia law, and that I recognise the possibility of a minority who might want to, and have stated my opposition to this just as I am opposed to Kris’s desire for the state to treat Muslims differently from non-Muslims.

1. Apart from the stage of Dawa (whereby they would say that) we are in for you to state for a whole people group who 2. each week pray for Allah to be glorified and Sharia be over the space they inhabit.

They do this because that is part of the glory of Allah and the perfect will of Him and all that His prophet worked for in his lifetime. The one who they regard as the perfect man.

All this you as an educated person should be able to understand from the same sources Kris has available to him.

http://www.politicalislam.com/
I don’t intend to get into a to and fro of sources but short of reading the Bukari Hadith alongside the Sira and a Koran this site will take you through political Islam as defined in the Sharia.

This is the reality Kris was referring to for the Copts and that applies in any territory to a greater or lessor degree which is Sharia compliant.

People who take their scriptures literally are odd. But the fact remains, it is undemocratic to discriminate against people for their beliefs and not their deeds.
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October 19, 2010 4:26pm
MikeNZ

Ryan
You want the state to discriminate against people for being Muslim. How long before they come for me at your behest?

Firstly, I liken Political Islam to nazism/communism so yes I would say if you want to live in freedom and liberty you have to stand against Islam as we know it, as Sharia is the Social/Political/Emotional/Pschological/Economic expression of Islam as it covers all of life.
That means you have to say to Muslims you support an ideology that makes non-Muslims less than female Muslims who are less than male Muslims as the basic heart value of your belief and position Theologically/Legally/Socially.
That is the logical position.

Secondly, for Sharia to represent our values of equality and freedom and liberty, Muslims would have to reject the Koran/Sira and Hadiths as they are interwoven.

Thirdly, for Muslims to reject the Koran is blasphemy and punishable by death in ALL the central Hadiths.

The last part of your comment is a misnomer as you actually do know what we are talking about here.
So what gives?
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October 19, 2010 4:29pm
Kris K

kowtow 3:29 pm,

Kris K,
The Copts are indeed the indigenous people of Egypt.
The country was majority Christian,even though ruled by Muslims,until a wave of Arab Muslim immigration in around 13 or 1400′s ,can’t remember exactly. Read that a while ago in a book about the Arabs.

Funny thing about “democracy” there is, if it ever happens the Muslim Brotherhood will take over and that will make for interesting times.

Indeed, Kowtow.

The main weakness with democracy is that without a Judeo-Christian foundation it has no resistance to being taken over by hostile agencies/philosophies; hostile agencies who literally vote themselves into power. As Islam becomes established it simply “votes out” democracy and “votes in” Sharia.

That this process is well underway in Egypt, Europe, the UK, etc is clear to all who choose to see it.
Note, too, as these nations have pushed out Christianity, and its associated values system, and replaced it with secularism/humanism, that Islam and other hostile philosophies have come flooding in to fill the ideological/philosophical/religious vacuum. And so goes the decline of Western Democracies and their associated freedoms …
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October 19, 2010 4:32pm
WebWrat

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2010/10/18/islamophobia-is-a-very-justifiable-fear-of-muslims/
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October 19, 2010 4:33pm
Ryan Sproull

Firstly, I liken Political Islam to nazism/communism so yes I would say if you want to live in freedom and liberty you have to stand against Islam as we know it, as Sharia is the Social/Political/Emotional/Pschological/Economic expression of Islam as it covers all of life.

That means you have to say to Muslims you support an ideology that makes non-Muslims less than female Muslims who are less than male Muslims as the basic heart value of your belief and position Theologically/Legally/Socially.
That is the logical position.

I do not support that ideology. I support people’s right to believe what they believe. That almost entirely consists of supporting people’s right to believe what I do not believe.

Secondly, for Sharia to represent our values of equality and freedom and liberty, Muslims would have to reject the Koran/Sira and Hadiths as they are interwoven.

Sharia does not represent our (or my, at least) values of equality and freedom and liberty. It would have to change beyond recognition to do so, since our (or my, at least) values of equality and freedom and liberty include a separation of church and state.

Thirdly, for Muslims to reject the Koran is blasphemy and punishable by death in ALL the central Hadiths.

And yet somehow Muslims manage to live perfectly happy decent law-abiding productive lives in New Zealand.

The last part of your comment is a misnomer as you actually do know what we are talking about here.
So what gives?

My point in the last part of that comment was to illustrate which end of the state->citizen spectrum Kris was placing himself on while paraphrasing a quote about the Nazi state discriminating against people for what they believe.
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October 19, 2010 4:34pm
MikeNZ

Ryan Sproull (3,829) Says:
October 19th, 2010 at 3:51 pm

Ryan Sproull (3,829) Says:
October 19th, 2010 at 4:26 pm
People who take their scriptures literally are odd. But the fact remains, it is undemocratic to discriminate against people for their beliefs and not their deeds.

We are fucked in NZ if we accept your position.

Just as we should oppose paedophiles where ever they crop up as their beliefs are dangerous to Children so we should oppose Sharia law in all it’s forms as the intention is to lead to full Sharia at some time over a territory.

In a war we shelve democracy to protect it, do we not?

We are in a war right now and whilst we don’t have to shelve our laws we can state very clearly that we do not accept Sharia law and speak firmly in all the forums we engage in against it and those territories who are complaint with it.

Similarly it makes sense to not accept people into NZ either permanently or temporarily who espouse a belief system that at it’s core is discriminatory against women and non-Muslims unless they reject the system.

It also makes sense to call for voting rights at the UN and it’s agencies and other fora we engage in to be suspended for those states who discriminate against it’s citizens as Sharia does until they change their legal and constitutional systems to make them equitable and fair to all it’s citizens.

In the case of Islam that would mean no new mosques and severely survey their activities based on the experience other countries have had on the indoctrination. This would also apply to any educational foundations and cross cultural bodies too.
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October 19, 2010 4:41pm
MikeNZ

Ryan Sproull (3,830) Says:
October 19th, 2010 at 4:34 pm

Again you do not acknowledge Dawa or it’s stages nor Taqiyya — Religious Deception

Indeed you ignore it deliberately.

http://www.politicalislam.com/
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October 19, 2010 4:44pm
WebWrat

According to leftards we should respect these wonderful, peaceful people.

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2010/10/18/the-story-behind-one-muslim-womans-honor-mutilation/
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October 19, 2010 4:44pm
MikeNZ

Webrat
the American Thinker article reads much better.
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/10/its_logical_to_be_islamophobic.html
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October 19, 2010 4:46pm
MikeNZ

Ryan
you do a disservice to all ex-Muslims and especially those non-Muslims who do not have access to the same sources you do or your intellect by your attitude and dupliciousness.
You should be ashamed
http://formermuslimsunited.americancommunityexchange.org/category/human-rights-in-muslim-states/

Do the right thing and get educated and if you need a moderate voice here is one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Sookhdeo

edit-
sorry you do a greater disservice to those people who are non-Muslim citizens in Sharia or partial Sharia complaint territorities.
that is unconsionable.
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October 19, 2010 4:50pm
Kris K

Ryan Sproull 4:19 pm,

No, I want the state to descriminate against a philosophy which has as its core doctrine the subjugation and destruction of ALL non Muslims nations and individuals.

Which means treating people unequally because of what they believe, not because of what they’ve done. That’s evil.

Should we discriminate against, say, a Muslims terrorist who is planning to blow up the Beehive only once he has successfully carried out his task? I don’t believe you’re that naive, Ryan.

Just as we d[i]scriminated against Nazi Germany in WWII.

Nazi Germany was not a person. If it was, it would have been evil to treat it differently because of what it believed, if it had not done anything.

So if the British had known the plans of Hitler, as an individual, ahead of time it would have been wrong to discriminate against him because he was an individual?

Should we not descriminate against evil, Ryan? – you do believe in evil, I presume? – I know I do.

Yes. It would be evil for the state to discriminate against you for what you believe when you haven’t done anything. It would be similarly evil for the state to discriminate against Muslims for what they believe.

Once again, if the state (or anyone else, for that matter) was aware that I planned to, for example, fly a jet airliner into parliament then I would expect the state to act with extreme prejudice if it became aware of my plans ahead of time.

Another analogy would be if the Yanks became aware aheade of time that the Japs were planning to bomb Pearl Harbour that they, using your logic, should have waited for the first bomb to achieve its target.

When it all boils down, Ryan, I see little difference between an individual or a nation who plans evil intent against their enemy. Both should be responded to with the purpose of preventing them being successful in achieving their end goal. If you don’t/can’t/won’t see that then it really is your problem, not mine. Deal with it.
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October 19, 2010 5:00pm
Ryan Sproull

When we shelve democracy in the manner you suggest, we destroy the democracy we are trying to protect before anyone else has a chance to. People thinking thoughts you and I don’t like is the price we pay for democracy. Even dawa, until it manifests as actual crime. No laws against thoughtcrime, thanks.

Sorry for the brevity. Posting by phone. Whoo! Technology is awesome.

I think Muslims and you are both wrong, but you are both entitled to your thoughts, while they stay in your head.
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October 19, 2010 5:05pm
Kris K

Ryan Sproull 5:05 pm,

When we shelve democracy in the manner you suggest, we destroy the democracy we are trying to protect before anyone else has a chance to. People thinking thoughts you and I don’t like is the price we pay for democracy. Even dawa, until it manifests as actual crime. No laws against thoughtcrime, thanks.

Islam is already manifesting itself in Africa, Europe, the UK, the US, etc, etc. Islam views the world in global terms, we need to as well. When you have a global perspective it becomes clear that Islam declared war on the West in the 911 terrorist attacks, if not before.

I could just imagine Ryan doing nothing as an arsonist, who he knew the identity of, proceeded to burn down all the properties on his street, but because he hadn’t burnt his house down yet Ryan felt there was no need to take action.

I think Muslims and you are both wrong, but you are both entitled to your thoughts, while they stay in your head.

So what was your address again, Ryan?
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October 19, 2010 5:20pm

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