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October 12, 2010 8:00am by David Farrar

General Debate 12 October 2010

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wat dabney

Well, quite.

“In the end, science is no more compatible with religion than with other superstitions, such as leprechauns. Yet we don’t talk about reconciling science with leprechauns. ”

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-10-11-column11_ST_N.htm?csp=hf
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October 12, 2010 11:45am
bhudson

Pete,

“Is there anywhere other than Wellington where rail is seen as popular as a preferred mode of transport?”

It’s not as simple as that. For the northern suburbs (east & west), there only two roads leading into Wellington – the motorways from the Hutt Valley & Porirua combine at the bottom of the Ngauranga Gorge to be a single access road. The second is the “Old Hutt Road” and used principally by Ngaio & Khandallah residents – as well as some northern commuters who think it will be slightly quicker for them than the motorway.

[It is true there is a back road way from Johnsonville around through Wadestown or by Karori – but that is not practical for commuting traffic other than local residents.]

This lack of vehicular access is why people take the train. Hobson’s choice, not real choice.

Oh and those roads are still congested – so the rail system isn’t a cure. (It is also notoriously unreliable – even with all the subsidies from ratepayers)
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October 12, 2010 11:47am
Kris K

wat dabney 10:57 am,

What was it Russell said? If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

Luckily, Wat, said “teapot” is not so small as to be undetectable.
For example, if the “teapot” is in fact the earth, of which the Bible has much to say, then suddenly we are all confronted with evidence on a daily basis. The ‘Goldie Locks’ condition of the earth being perfectly atuned to support life – conditions which can be found nowhere else in the known universe. Conditions such as; oxygen rich atmosphere, abundant water and the hydrological cycle, temperatures in the right range to support life (earth the right distance from the sun), a moon of sufficient/correct mass to induce tidal flows which are just right to prevent stagnation of oceans and to oxygenate them, tilt of the earth to induce ‘just right’ seasonal variations, etc, etc. And then, of course, that life is here at all to take advantage of these ‘just right’ conditions.

No need to go looking for imaginary ‘teapots’ – we live on a living, breathing, life sustaining miracle called earth which defies logic and is unparalleled anywhere else in the known universe. QED.
You ‘doubters’ really are “without excuse”.
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October 12, 2010 11:51am
MikeNZ

Fletch (1,393) Says:
October 12th, 2010 at 11:14 am

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20101009-30383.html

It’s the creeping sharia I detest as any sharia no matter how insignificant is a toehold and we need to state clearly Sharia’s heart message is completely unacceptable just as loud as was done to Henry.
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October 12, 2010 11:59am
Chthoniid

Yawn, the Goldilocks conditions are a myth Kris.

Organic molecules- precursors of life- are widely found elsewhere (e.g. the amino acids from the Murchison meteor). Oxygen isn’t a condition for life.

Mass extinctions have been common- the PTr extinction came close to wiping at all complex animals on the planet. Mostly because the earth’s crust releases millions of cubic km of gases and particulates as the Siberian traps were formed. Volcanoes, ice ages, meteorite strikes all add up to the fact that the vast majority of species that have ever emerged on earth are extinct.

The whole planet is bathed in deadly UV radiation, only partly moderated now by the atmosphere. It’s still deadly enough to make skin cancer a leading cause of death.

Asserting that this big rock we live on is some miracle that defies logic, is completely absurd.
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October 12, 2010 12:06pm
Kris K

Lucia Maria 11:20 am,

Kris,

Revolutions are rarely good. Most have had terrible consequences (French, Spanish, Polish, Russian, Iranian, Cuban…).

Be careful what you call for!

For a minute there, Lucia, I thought you said, “Revolutions are really good”. 😉

I guess it depends how you describe revolution. There have been many bloodless revolutions. And I’m sure the Roman authorities at the time, not to mention the Jewish authorites, considered Christ a revolutionary – despite him calling his followers to the peaceful overthrow of tyranny. Are Christians, in fact, not involved in “revolution” every day of our lives? Are we not called to stand against evil?
You must read a different Bible to the one I do.

And what of WWII? – should Christians have refused to enter the military to aid in the West’s aim of overthrowing Nazi Germany and Japan? I’m all for bloodless coups, Lucia, but sometimes to overthrow tyranny requires a little “bloodying up”, if you see my point.

We’re in a war; spiritual and otherwise, to deny this reality of Christianity is to deny the biblical call on our lives.
I stand by my original assertion: “Viva la Revolution”.
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October 12, 2010 12:11pm
bereal

The full text of the resignation from the American Physical Society from Emiritus Professor of Physics
Hal Lewis, University of California, a member for over 60 years, can be found at
American Thinker.com/blog under the heading, “brave scientist calls out the global warming fraudsters”
by Thomas Lifton.
Could global warming supporters on this site, rebutt his reasons ?
Speak up most strident supporters such as Luc Hansen and John Gibson , address the issue and don’t try
and denigrate the man as usual.
Check out Prof Lewis’ credentials and compare them to your own.
Hey John, do you consider this brave man another, “conspiracy theory nutjob ”
Luc, a great mind such as yours can destroy this morons argument with one hand behind your back.
Go for it mates.
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October 12, 2010 12:22pm
Pete George

And what of WWII? – should Christians have refused to enter the military to aid in the West’s aim of overthrowing Nazi Germany and Japan?

WWII wouldn’t have happened if Christians had refused to be a part of the German military.

If you stood up against evil you might have a point, but all appearances are you try to stand up against anyone you disagree with or don’t like. A supremest crusade is a lot different to a fight against tyranny.
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October 12, 2010 12:23pm
Kris K

Chthoniid 12:06 pm,

Yawn, the Goldilocks conditions are a myth Kris. […]

Asserting that this big rock we live on is some miracle that defies logic, is completely absurd.

And yet here we are debating it, Evo-man.
Got any other examples of “completely absurd” big rocks which actually have life on them? Or even of planet-moon-sun systems which match our own ‘Goldie Locks’ conditions?

The fact we’re here; that life is nowhere else in the known universe, will continue to be the BIGGEST stumbling block to the ‘doubters’. When you find life elsewhere get back to me … (won’t be holding my breath)
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October 12, 2010 12:23pm
Atheist1

Kris K: “I am an Englishman” – ‘I say YES!..’

Disgusting, ignorant and ill-educated video. If that’s the kind of rubbish that motivates your hate-fuelled rants here, it explains a lot.

(and what a moron the guy speaking is. From his colouring, looks like his ancestors were Vikings or otherwise from the North. “Immigration” has been a fact of life since Mankind left Africa all those years ago. Oh sorry, I forgot KKKKris, you don’t “believe” in that scientific fact do you).
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October 12, 2010 12:28pm
Lucia Maria

Kris,

For a minute there, Lucia, I thought you said, “Revolutions are really good”.

LOL!

I guess it depends how you describe revolution. There have been many bloodless revolutions.

As long as you’re not advocating taking up a gun and shooting all the traitors. That never ends well.
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October 12, 2010 12:28pm
wat dabney

Kris K,

All belief systems have their creation myth. It’s their major function.

So pointing to the universe as evidence only gets you as far as deism. It certainly doesn’t support any particular religion; and Christianity/Judeism specifically can be discarded since they contradict everything we have learned about the universe. They have been proved false.
Put another way, if you claim the universe as evidence for Yahweh then you have also “proved” the existence of all these guys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Creator_gods

And more than that of course, postulating a giant invisible pixie as the creator of the universe doesn’t solve anything, since you then have to explain how that pixie came into being. And so on ad-infinitum.

“The ‘Goldie Locks’ condition of the earth being perfectly atuned to support life…”

To quote Douglas Adams: “Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!'”
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October 12, 2010 12:32pm
Kris K

bereal 12:22 pm,

The full text of the resignation from the American Physical Society from Emiritus Professor of Physics Hal Lewis, University of California, a member for over 60 years …

Here it is, too, Bereal.

Another Nail in the Coffin of AGW – like rats from a sinking ship:

A scientist resigns: global warming corrupted my profession
Andrew Bolt
Sunday, October 10, 2010 at 06:01am

Hal Lewis, Emeritus Professor of Physics at the University of California, resigns from the American Physical Society in protest at its attempts to shut down debate on its global warming stand:

To: Curtis G. Callan, Jr., Princeton University, President of the American Physical Society

6 October 2010

Dear Curt:

When I first joined the American Physical Society sixty-seven years ago it was much smaller, much gentler, and as yet uncorrupted by the money flood….

As recently as thirty-five years ago, when I chaired the first APS study of a contentious social/scientific issue, The Reactor Safety Study, though there were zealots aplenty on the outside there was no hint of inordinate pressure on us as physicists. We were therefore able to produce what I believe was and is an honest appraisal of the situation at that time…

How different it is now. The giants no longer walk the earth, and the money flood has become the raison d’être of much physics research, the vital sustenance of much more, and it provides the support for untold numbers of professional jobs. For reasons that will soon become clear my former pride at being an APS Fellow all these years has been turned into shame, and I am forced, with no pleasure at all, to offer you my resignation from the Society.

It is of course, the global warming scam, with the (literally) trillions of dollars driving it, that has corrupted so many scientists, and has carried APS before it like a rogue wave. It is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist. Anyone who has the faintest doubt that this is so should force himself to read the ClimateGate documents, which lay it bare. (Montford’s book organizes the facts very well.) I don’t believe that any real physicist, nay scientist, can read that stuff without revulsion. I would almost make that revulsion a definition of the word scientist.

So what has the APS, as an organization, done in the face of this challenge? It has accepted the corruption as the norm, and gone along with it….

The appallingly tendentious APS statement on Climate Change was apparently written in a hurry by a few people over lunch, and is certainly not representative of the talents of APS members as I have long known them. So a few of us petitioned the Council to reconsider it… In response APS appointed a secret committee that never met, never troubled to speak to any skeptics, yet endorsed the Statement in its entirety. (They did admit that the tone was a bit strong, but amazingly kept the poison word incontrovertible to describe the evidence, a position supported by no one..)…

In the interim the ClimateGate scandal broke into the news, and the machinations of the principal alarmists were revealed to the world. It was a fraud on a scale I have never seen, and I lack the words to describe its enormity. Effect on the APS position: none. None at all. This is not science; other forces are at work…

So a few of us tried to bring science into the act (that is, after all, the alleged and historic purpose of APS), and collected the necessary 200+ signatures to bring to the Council a proposal for a Topical Group on Climate Science, thinking that open discussion of the scientific issues, in the best tradition of physics, would be beneficial to all, and also a contribution to the nation. I might note that it was not easy to collect the signatures, since you denied us the use of the APS membership list…. To our amazement, Constitution be damned, you declined to accept our petition…

APS management has gamed the problem from the beginning, to suppress serious conversation about the merits of the climate change claims. Do you wonder that I have lost confidence in the organization?…

Your own Physics Department (of which you are chairman) would lose millions a year if the global warming bubble burst. When Penn State absolved Mike Mann of wrongdoing, and the University of East Anglia did the same for Phil Jones, they cannot have been unaware of the financial penalty for doing otherwise. As the old saying goes, you don’t have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing. Since I am no philosopher, I’m not going to explore at just which point enlightened self-interest crosses the line into corruption, but a careful reading of the ClimateGate releases makes it clear that this is not an academic question.

I want no part of it, so please accept my resignation.
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October 12, 2010 12:37pm
Augustus

So you’ve been to the rest of the “known” universe and established that there is no life there, Kris? Or does your “known” only include the part we are, thanks to science, able to look at? Life exists because of the conditions the planet provides, the planet doesn’t exist to provide those conditions for us, we are it’s product, not it’s purpose. I’m sure everyone here has heard your “argument” before anyway. What you say is not evidence for your belief, it is interpreting the evidende to suit your belief. Others being unable to disprove your assertion does not make it true. No doubt you’ve heard this argument before, too.

No need to go looking for imaginary superbeings, we have better explanations these days.
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October 12, 2010 12:37pm
Chthoniid

@Kris

Claiming that a big rock where 99% of all species have been wiped out through multiple causes is somehow perfectly suited for life, is just stupid. I can’t understand how stupid religion can make some people.

This is exacerbated by your dependence on an (inductive) logical fallacy regarding extraterrestrial life and incomprehension about the burden of proof. You’re the one making the claim that life here is miraculously unique. Prove it. Show me why in a universe of billions of galaxies, where organic molecules form readily, that there is any reason why life could not form elsewhere.

Seeing the nature of this universe I would be inclined to accept a premise of quantum simulation over pseudo-omnipotent blood god any day.
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October 12, 2010 12:42pm
Pete George

The fact we’re here; that life is nowhere else in the known universe, will continue to be the BIGGEST stumbling block to the ‘doubters’. When you find life elsewhere get back to me … (won’t be holding my breath)

The “if you can’t prove it I must be right” trick. But that just highlights the BIGGER THAN BIGGEST stumbling block for proponents of gods – they can never prove anything so they have to attempt tricks to try and reverse the dilemma. The problem with this approach is gradually science has proven or pointed more to probability of religious beliefs being misguided.
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October 12, 2010 12:48pm
Kris K

wat dabney 12:32 pm,

And more than that of course, postulating a giant invisible pixie as the creator of the universe doesn’t solve anything, since you then have to explain how that pixie came into being. And so on ad-infinitum.

That there is a Creator behind the creation is a much more valid position than simply attributing the creation to blind chance where “Nothing” decided to go bang, and we subsequently ended up with an ordered universe, and with life uniquely being on the only planet which can support life (awaits evidence to contradict this).

And rather than reverting to what Douglas Adams may think, I’d rather go with what the One behind the creation has revealed about both Himself and His creation. If earth is designed to support life then, of course, it makes perfect sense that life is here because it was PUT here to coincide with the perfect conditions.

I need much less faith to hold my position than do all you who worship at Darwin’s altar.
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October 12, 2010 12:55pm
RRM

Oh God, not this again.

Get a room.
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October 12, 2010 12:59pm
Kris K

Augustus 12:37 pm,

Life exists because of the conditions the planet provides, the planet doesn’t exist to provide those conditions for us, we are it’s product, not it’s purpose.

And you know this how?
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October 12, 2010 1:11pm
Lucia Maria

RRM,

All the big questions will come up time and time again. Unless we just want to talk about the weather, or what latest person is being offered up as a sacrifice on the PC altar.
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October 12, 2010 1:11pm
kowtow

Chthoniid;

Can you be more specific with those “Eastern Orthodox” who dont’t allow communion to menstruals.?
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October 12, 2010 1:11pm
Atheist1

Kris K: “where “Nothing” decided to go bang”

oh dear. You really don’t know much about science at all, do you?
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October 12, 2010 1:12pm
transmogrifier

Don’t we already have a thread where we can discuss superstitious bullshit?
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October 12, 2010 1:13pm
MyNameIsJack

Kris K blabs life is here because it was PUT here to coincide with the perfect conditions

Perfect conditions that include earthquakes, floods, bodies that can only be fuelled by inflicting enormous pain on other living beings, risk of asteroid collision (it has happened in the past), disease, predators, and a Sun whose intensity waxes and wanes.

Yep, god got the planet perfect.
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October 12, 2010 1:40pm
lofty

I am perplexed that so many of my friends are against a mosque being built near Ground Zero. I think it should be the goal of all of us to be tolerant. The mosque should be allowed, in an effort to promote tolerance.

That is why I propose, that two gay nightclubs be opened next door to the mosque thereby promoting tolerance within the mosque. We could call the clubs “The Turban Cowboy” and “You Mecca Me So Hot”.

Next door should be a butcher shop that specializes in pork and have an open barbeque with spare ribs as its daily special. Across the street a very daring lingerie store called “Burquas Removed” with sexy mannequins in the window modelling the goods.

Next door to the lingerie shop, there would be room for an Adult Toy Shop (Koranal Knowledge?), its name in flashing neon lights, and on the other side a liquor store, maybe call it “Morehammered”?

I know I have just earnt a 1000 lines for trying to be funny, (even though it aint original) and bringing a bit of levity to the thread, sorry.
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October 12, 2010 2:06pm
Kris K

MyNameIsLegion (for we are many) 1:40 pm,

Perfect conditions that include earthquakes, floods, bodies that can only be fuelled by inflicting enormous pain on other living beings, risk of asteroid collision (it has happened in the past), disease, predators, and a Sun whose intensity waxes and wanes.

Yep, god got the planet perfect.

Heard of the “Fall”, Legion? – the creation WAS perfect prior to man’s sin of rebellion. We live in a post fall world …
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October 12, 2010 2:20pm
Chthoniid

Yes, strange how believing that a story written by bronze age shepherds requires less faith than accepting thousands of scientific papers, published every month in fields as diverse as cosmology, geology, biology and chemistry- year after year, decade after decade. Looks like a pretty bullshit claim really.

I recommend anybody who thinks the big-bang singularity was nothing, start by lifting something smaller, like a black-hole singularity, then get back to us.
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October 12, 2010 2:25pm
Brian Smaller

lofty – that is quite funny but you have probably earned a death fatwah from the religion of tolerance.
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October 12, 2010 2:25pm
Redbaiter

Chthoniid, the navel gazing idiot who say there is no God but cannot refrain from endlessly spewing his fucking guts about the subject at every opportunity.
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October 12, 2010 2:30pm
Atheist1

Redbaiter, the mouth-frothing, intolerant idiot who says he doesn’t watch leftie TVNZ but cannot refrain from endlessly spewing his fucking guts about the subject at every opportunity
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October 12, 2010 2:32pm
lofty

Ah well Brian…me smoking will probably do me in 1st.
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October 12, 2010 2:33pm
Jimbob

I see Gareth Morgan had another socialist rant in the Herald today. He thinks the World is going to run out of water, when the planet’s surface is mostly covered in the stuff. Still ranting on about climate change and slanging off at farmers and people who buy houses. Is this guy having a mid life crisis or what.
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October 12, 2010 2:35pm
MyNameIsJack

Kris KWitless witters Heard of the “Fall”,

First, interesting use of quote marks.

And yes, I am aware of the snake, the man, the apple, the woman and the tempter god.

So, what you’re saying is that because a mythical Man and a mythical woman ate mythical fruit from a mythical tree in a mythical place, after being tempted by a mythical snake and all of them having been set up by a mythical god, the ONLY way the lion can eat is by inflicting incredible pain and suffering on the zebra?

FUCK that’s a god worthy of worship.
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October 12, 2010 2:35pm
Fletch

MNIJ, so you’re a Vegan then?
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October 12, 2010 4:14pm
MyNameIsJack

No fletch, I am not a vegan, and I enjoy a good lump of animal flesh. But I know this is because its the way we evolved, not as a result of “intelligent design” by an obviously unintelligent god.
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October 12, 2010 4:33pm
Owen McShane

Just for the record, I have been given back access to Frogblog and the administrators have apologised for the glitch.
Just Murphy’s law.
All civilised as things should be.
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October 12, 2010 4:48pm
bereal

Lofty @ 2.06
That was a good one mate, the first paragraph started to wind me up.
The adult toy shop could sell muslim inflatable dolls.
These are better than the normal sex doll cause the muslim ones blow themselves up.
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October 12, 2010 5:29pm
kowtow

Chtitnoid,come on please ,specifics on the Orthodox as requested earlier. You have made an assertion,back it up.
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October 12, 2010 5:45pm
wat dabney

Kris K,

“That there is a Creator behind the creation is a much more valid position than simply attributing the creation to blind chance where “Nothing” decided to go bang”

You still refuse to face the blindingly obvious flaw that you have explained nothing, since your creator must in turn have required a creator. So let’s not pretend you are offering anything approaching rational debate here. By all means cling to your belief system, but let’s acknowledge it for what it is – a comforting superstition that let’s you feel smugly superior to the rest of us.

It is perfectly legitimate to say “we don’t know.” What is not legitimate is to ascribe everything we don’t know to the antics of a mischievous leprechaun and then pretend that you’ve supplied an explanation.

“And rather than reverting to what Douglas Adams may think, I’d rather go with what the One behind the creation has revealed about both Himself and His creation.”

Help us out here, bud. Would you mind?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deities

Which of these is the One True Leprechaun; and how do you know?
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October 12, 2010 5:49pm
MikeNZ

WAT et all
Which one is most vilified by atheists and humanists?
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October 12, 2010 6:12pm
bereal

Sadly we note the passing of Australian soprano diva, Lady Joan Sutherland.
As the great Australian statesman Sir Les Patterson observed, Lady Joan had a very healthy sexual appetite.
Not being the most visually attractive woman, Sir Les commented upon what she used to put behind her
ears to attract men.
Her ankles.
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October 12, 2010 6:17pm
Kris K

wat dabney 5:49 pm,

You still refuse to face the blindingly obvious flaw that you have explained nothing, since your creator must in turn have required a creator.

Where, exactly, do you get the idea that the Creator needed to be created? Another false premise used frequently by those uncomfortable with the idea that they may have to give an account one day to this same Creator.

You really are like a piece of pottery who ends up questioning the methods and motives of the Master Potter. If you must know the Creator God is spirit – He is not limited by time, space, matter, or subject to any of the laws which He set in place to run His creation. He is above and outside His created order; He exists entirely independent of it, and only made it for His good pleasure. If He chose to extinguish His creation (time, space & matter) He would still exist; just as He did prior to speaking His creation into being.
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October 12, 2010 6:26pm
wat dabney

Kris K,

“Where, exactly, do you get the idea that the Creator needed to be created? Another false premise used frequently by those uncomfortable with the idea that they may have to give an account one day to this same Creator.”

That’s hilarious. You sound like you’re playing Dungeons and Dragons.

But how did your troll get across the moat to the Fortress of Doom?

Aha! It’s a flying troll dumbass!

I mean, you didn’t say yours was a magic pixie. Of course that changes everything. And what a sane and plausible explanation it is, if I may say so.
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October 12, 2010 6:43pm
Viking2

Air New Zealand was quick to seize on the incident, placing internet adverts that urged customers to “get flights, not into fights”.

Jetstar staff member charged with assault
By KIRSTY JOHNSTON – Stuff
Last updated 15:39 12/10/2010

KENT BLECHYNDEN/Dominion Post
NURSING INJURIES: Radio DJ Iain Stables says he was attacked by a Jetstar staff member after he called him a loser.

Police have arrested and charged a Jetstar representative with assaulting radio host Iain Stables.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/celebrities/4224247/Jetstar-staff-member-charged-with-assault
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October 12, 2010 7:08pm
joana

kow tow…I think there is something like that with Greek Orthodox churches.not sure?
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October 12, 2010 7:30pm
wikiriwhis business

I now know why Paul Henry is my hero. because he has exposed every body!!!!

Where is John Minto to protest for the Ram chuildren to stay in this country instead of being deported to disease, starvation and threat of death in the slums of India.

Where is the Indian community who know what the slums are like and should be out side CYFS protesting until thoise Indian children are kept in this country

What about CYFS themselves. Who are they to play God when their reputation is in tatters.

CYFS, Indians and Minto are all screwed up hypocrites no one will expose but Paul Henry.

Indians are all racists to each other and will not lift a finger for other castes.

I will be saying all this on Hamilton Community Radio from 10 am in the morning

Tune in.

And I hope I get challenged cause I’m in the mood for a scrap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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October 12, 2010 10:27pm
OECD rank 22 kiwi

New Zealand win the Rugby 7s Gold
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October 13, 2010 12:43am
joana

Why should the ram children stay in the country? Their parents are dishonest cheats..it can hardly be expected that they turn out any better. Other people follow the rules..why make exceptions? They and their parents lower standards in this country.
And when are we getting an apology from the Indian Govt over the burning of the effigy of a NZer?
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October 13, 2010 9:26am
Jack5

Re the Ram kids….

The PC mob never raised a finger a couple of decades ago when the NZ First Immigration Minister (now a consultant, of course) deported a German family with their NZ born kids because the father years earlier hadn’t disclosed a minor drug conviction in his migration application). This despite an uproar from the rural community where the family had made themselves really useful citizens.

Compare this with the Islands inlaws of the woman fired as Immigration chief because of her fraudulent original job application. The inlaws stayed in NZ.
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October 13, 2010 10:25pm

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Highlights

Health Target 5 – elective treatments
Health Target 4 – Specialist appointments
Health Target 3 – Emergency Dept Waiting Times
Health Target 2 – Immunisations

Links

26,000 unemployed under National
No Right Turn
Reagan: "Warmly ruthless"
Not PC
Sowell says
Hompaddock
NZ’s economy is being smashed since the RBNZ breached its remit: prominent US economist Greg Mankiw has explained why
Point of Order
Transforming Our Future
NZCPR
The Government’s cynical manipulation of the Treaty Principles Bill
The Standard
Biden administration lets Medicaid pay for Native American “traditional medicines”
Utopia
Who is Kemi Badenoch?
Bob McCoskrie's McBlog
The 2024 US Presidential Election
No Minister
So is David Seymour’s new food provider involved in the Christchurch Uni food poisoning?
The Daily Blog
THE BIG DAY
No Punches Pulled (Bob Jones)
Top 14 Predictions for Round 10
Stats Chat
US military-industrial-sports complex.
Kiwipolitico
Pretty (il)legal
Croaking Cassandra
Where are the food carts?
Offsetting Behaviour
Tory Whanau may have to sell Wellington mayoralty to make ends meet
The Civilian
The Accidental Engagement
Imperator Fish
Legal Beagle: Election '23: The Special Votes
Public Address
Making this movie might have been a mistake
Liam Hehir
Why I am retiring from political blogging
Kiwi FireWalker
Angie Warren-Clark: Meet the Newbies
Dan Moskovitz

editor@kiwiblog.co.nz

PO Box 12270, Thorndon, Wellington 6144

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