General Debate 11 October 2010

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Brian Harmer

Whoop!
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October 11, 2010 8:07am
Murray

Whats the difference between Henry and Hawariwa?

Henry resigned.

And what he said wasn’t racist anyway. Good way to let a leftist minority rule the country.
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October 11, 2010 8:09am
Shunda barunda

Ooo I almost had it!
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October 11, 2010 8:10am
Brian Harmer

I wonder how many people, Like David Ogden in Lower Hutt, fell foul of the “anyone but the incumbent” syndrome. And how many will reach a similar position in respect of the replacement three years from now?
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October 11, 2010 8:13am
sbk

“Brown’s Lefty Hordes…” the Hun has arrived, albeit centuries late,now for the rape and pillage.
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October 11, 2010 8:13am
Falafulu Fisi

Physics Nobel Laureate late Richard Feynman (one of the greatest in physics history) made a quip at his public lecture during a scholarly visit to Auckland University:

You don’t like it? Go somewhere else

The University of Auckland’s Physics Department had released all the videos of the full lecture series (on QED theory), which is available on the internet (Google them – you won’t miss them). Good lecture series to show young minds who are curious about the nature of reality.
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October 11, 2010 8:14am
francis

Herald: Names at top of the alphabet sweep DHB seats http://www.nzherald.co.nz/local-government/news/article.cfm?c_id=250&objectid=10679646
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October 11, 2010 8:15am
wreck1080

Consequences of 1st world country in relative economic decay….

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/4217334/Patients-turned-away-as-GP-crisis-grows

NZ has managed to partially hide the crisis by shuffling the deck, but cracks are appearing. I wouldn’t want to live in a boring town, your health will be at risk.

I predict. An influx of foreign doctors from 3rd world countries.

What we need now, is a politician who will promise to catch our economy to up to the Aussies….

Oops.
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October 11, 2010 8:53am
Chuck Bird

Guilty of 37 theft counts, but law student ‘let off’
MARK STORY | 6th October 2010

A Hastings man says he is “dismayed” at the justice system after his former employee was granted permanent name suppression despite admitting she stole 37 times from his business.

A District Court judge yesterday awarded permanent name suppression to the 25-year-old female law student who pleaded guilty to multiple charges of obtaining by deception after selling company goods worth $7743 on Trade Me while employed at the Hastings business last year.

http://www.hawkesbaytoday.co.nz/local/news/guilty-of-37-theft-counts-but-law-student-let-off/3925372/

This is an outrage. I am not one who is a totally opposed to discharge without conviction and possibly even name suppression. However, this is not one of the cases where it should apply. I can see it in an isolated case and generally on not involving dishonestly.

Compare this with the Garrett case. It involved one offence, he made no financial gain. It happened 26 years ago and aside for a minor offence that carried a $10 penalty he had not committed an offence in that time.

Where is the public outcry? In 26 years the female could be on the bench and making sanctimonious and self righteous comments to offenders.

The outcry over Garrett was largely political as he was an ACT MP.

Surely, the penalty should be appealed.
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October 11, 2010 9:04am
BeaB

Isn’t it time we all protested at the ridiculous rules and laws around the Rugby World Cup.
We all should wear tee shirts with the logo and Official Sponsor because we as taxpayers have had to fork out a fortune for what will no doubt fail to live up to the hype and land us with even more expense.
I am always amazed we NZers put up with so much!
Don’t even get me started on being lectured to by all these Indians and even South Africans on what we are allowed to say and think!!!!
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October 11, 2010 9:06am
bhudson

Brian Harmer,

And Kerry Prendergast was reported as saying she didn’t believe that Wellington voters had sent her a message in her cliffhanger (and still undecided) contest.

It beggars belief. Surely the message could only be clearer it they each stood in line and poked her in the eye?
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October 11, 2010 9:15am
hj

Chris Trotter on support for Paul Henry:

“LIBERAL KIWIS said it so often that conservative comedians turned it into a joke: “I don’t know how Rob Muldoon got elected – nobody I know voted for him!”

You’d be surprised how many liberals struggled to see the humour in that sentence. Conservatives, on the other hand, got the joke straight-away.

They, at least, understood that liberal New Zealand constituted a small, self-referential elite that was ideologically, culturally and socially cut off from the overwhelming majority of the population.

And that, of course, was the whole point of the joke.”
http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2010/10/driving-in-illiberal-circles.html

BTW “Jimmy” on Frogblog (and Phil U) says “nobody listens to Trotter” 😉
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October 11, 2010 9:17am
bhudson

Chuck,

Whenever there is a report of a law student getting discharged without conviction – generally cited that the impact on their career would be a greater punishment than warranted – it always leaves me with a sort of a slimy feeling that it is an example of the legal system ‘looking after one of their own.’

(No evidence of course and unfair, in a sense, to cast aspersions on the otherwise honest members of the legal profession, but it is the perception that remains.)

Surely a law student should know better than anyone and could reasonably be held to be more accountable if they choose to breach the law (serious breach – not talking littering here [for the pedants])? If she didn’t want to compromise her career, she could and should have refrained from committing the crime.
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October 11, 2010 9:22am
wreck1080

@chuckbird

I agree with the discharge without conviction. Maybe not with the name suppression though. There should be some embarrassment for her actions.

I believe in giving a chance for first time theft crimes, assuming the person makes quick and full reparation to victims.

Sure, you could throw her in jail , ruin her life at a hefty cost to the tax payer.

Alternatively, you could provide a second chance. This person may have learnt their lesson and never re-offend, becoming a valued member of society.

If she does reoffend however, then , throw the maximum sentence at her.
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October 11, 2010 9:23am
bhudson

wreck1080,

It was 37 counts of theft – not a one off.

Maybe she didn’t need to go to jail, but she certainly did deserve a conviction and the career implications that might have (not to mention travel implications also.)
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October 11, 2010 9:26am
Murray

Still waiting on the appology from India.

Burning kiwis in efigy is culterally offensive as is attempting to commit electoral fraud.

I notice Len Brown and Goof both said they never supported Singh. You can see Brown “not supporting” Singh on all his election material.
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October 11, 2010 9:26am
Lance

John Mitchell stabbed…
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10679735

Good old South Africa, Shangri-La in action.
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October 11, 2010 9:30am
dad4justice

“Still waiting on the appology from India.”

Never happen and I do wonder how many “burning brides” went up over the duration of the games?
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October 11, 2010 9:30am
Inventory2

With regard to the name suppression mentioned above. Judge Adeane noted that the government had signalled its intention to toughen up the law, but that he was bound to sentence under the law as it stood. He has done something innovative however; he has written to the registrar of the Law Society naming the individual so that these issues could be considered when the person involves applies for admission as a Barrister and Solicitor; a novel approach!
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October 11, 2010 9:42am
Murray

Of the appology to HMTQ for running the shitest commonwealth games ever.

I have it that a lot of the athlets are getting sick and its not being reported “for the good of the games”.
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October 11, 2010 9:43am
tom hunter

It’s been a while since the debate about the “bullying” of teachers who speak out against the current system. It would seem the same thing is happening in Britain – and the “shut up if you know what’s good for you” brigade is not going to relent just because your a former Marxist – Teacher who criticised education standards:

Katharine Birbalsingh, 37, was ordered not to come into school on Thursday or Friday after making critical remarks before a speech by Education Secretary Michael Gove at the party conference in Birmingham on Tuesday.

Addressing the audience as a guest speaker, she gave a damning account of standards in schools, saying education had been “so dumbed down that even the children know it.”

The board of governors at St Michael and All Angels Church of England Academy in Camberwell, south London, told Miss Birbalsingh to stay away from the school while they considered her position.

But the French teacher and deputy head has been told that she would be allowed to return to the classroom on Monday after parents voiced their support.

In her speech on Tuesday, Miss Birbalsingh told delegates of a “broken” system which “keeps poor children poor”.
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October 11, 2010 9:49am
James Stephenson

Tom – I was just reading about that on Cranmer

His take here: http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2010/10/teacher-who-spoke-at-tory-conference.html

Is does seem that the crime is not the criticism of the system, but being an open supporter of the Conservatives….
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October 11, 2010 10:08am
tom hunter

Arrrrrrggg

your – you’re

Sigh
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October 11, 2010 10:12am
Murray

Your right Tom but don’t worry you’re spelling was clear enough their.
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October 11, 2010 10:21am
wreck1080

Brrr, coldest day of the year here in tauranga?

What happened to spring and global warming?
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October 11, 2010 10:32am
Pauleastbay

The conversation that lead to Micahel Laws insulting the Governor General publicly;

Laws : Anand, Why are you such a fat bastard?

Anand: Because Michael, everytime I fuck your wife she gives me a biscuit.
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October 11, 2010 10:36am
starboard

Prime Minister John Key has called for Michael Laws to apologise after calling Governor-General Sir Anand Satyanand fat, but Laws says Mr Key should stop being so PC.
On his radio show last week Laws called Sir Anand a “large, fat man” who has “never left the buffet table

…socialist PM wants apology…while we are at it…I want an apology from the racist Harawira for his obscene comments about white m/f’s…you make me puke key..sickly handwringer…you’ve got smaller balls than hulun had…
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October 11, 2010 11:09am
Jack5

New topic for a moment … Crafar farms and foreign purchase of our agricultural land.

The campaign supporting sale of the Crafar farms continues.

In today’s Christchurch Press a half-page article browbeats readers with “consequences” if NZ bars land sales to foreigners.

It uses the familiar rhetorical trick of extending the premises of the opposition – those who oppose agricultural land sales, particularly to a flaky company like Natural Dairy. The writer begins by warning against hostility to (all) foreign investment, yet no-one I’m aware of, apart perhaps from far leftist Murray Horton of Christchurch takes that position. The opposition is to the sale of our prime agricultural land abroad. China, the country of origin of the bid, takes a similar attitude to that of the Natural Dairy bid opponents. The Chinese say you can invest in our country but you can’t buy land.

In NZ’s case the threat is more acute, as agricultural land is our core strategic asset, and the family farm system which is the basis of farming entails local ownership.

The writer also says restricting fellow NZers from selling to China also restricts the rights of the NZ land owner who wants the best price. Yet in the Crafar case it is the receivers, not the land owner, who wants the sale to China.

The writer says:

One of the cornerstones of our society is that we are all free to buy, sell, and own land and businesses.

There are also limits. The writer would obviously have us abandon our Overseas Investment Commission. Under his argument, a Mackenzie Country runholder should be free to sell his land to Al Qaeda or Chavez or Kim Il Sung for a military training ground. The writer argues that the new owner will be subject to the laws of the land.

He is deluded if he thinks NZers would accept ownership by such foreign groups as long as they obeyed local laws – eg ran their training as a paintball club for groups of their tourists.

Overall, the writer uses the old rhetorical ploy of bullying, threatening innuendo:

When we restrict foreign investment some New Zealand worker now finds it just that little bit harder to find a job than they otherwise would have.

Rubbish! If the Crafar farms are broken up for sale as individual farms it almost certain they will perform better economically than if owned remotely by a flaky Chinese company. There is no imperative that foreign ownership is always better than local ownership.

The writer is one Stephen Hickson, who describes himself as a teacher in Canterbury University’s economics and MBA courses.

It disturbs me that he may be shovelling similar weak argument into Canterbury economics and MBA students.

My advice to any Canterbury economics student is take a unit or two in logic from the philosophy department to keep your head straight.
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October 11, 2010 11:16am
starboard

from Stuff

An international school run by the husband of disgraced former Act MP Donna Awatere Huata has gone into liquidation, leaving creditors and students in the lurch.
Wi Huata took over the Jireh International Academy in Queen St, central Auckland, in late 2008.
In July this year, the company was locked out of its premises, owing money to at least 23 known creditors

…parasitic criminals of the highest order…
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October 11, 2010 11:27am
Jack5

Re Crafar etc and the Christchurch academic’s support for foreign ownership (my 11.16 post)…

A friend has just pointed out to me that Hickson’s argument also is disproved by the case of Tait Electronics, of Christchurch.

Sir Angus Tait, a major beneficiary of Hickson’s university, rejected overseas offers for the company because he knew they would soon close it and transfer production overseas. Sir Angus left the ownership of the company in a trust to ensure manufacturing stayed in Christchurch.

Hundreds of jobs saved from foreign ownership, and given the spin-off and flow-on effects, perhaps thousands of Christchurch jobs. Plus continuation of a superb training ground that has spawned other successful entrepreneurs running export-electronic factories in Christchurch.

Where would the economic benefit have been in Tait selling out to foreigners, Mr Hickson?
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October 11, 2010 11:32am
wat dabney

“…foreign purchase of our agricultural land”

I didn’t realise I owned any agricultural land; and certainly not with you as a partner.

When did this happen? Can I visit the property? Can I drive one of “our” tractors?
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October 11, 2010 11:35am
wat dabney

That’s odd. I left a contrary comment on NZ Herald’s site – the article where Hickey tries to convince us that cheap imports are in fact a bad thing – yet the only ones that get published are all in agreement with him. It seems to be just a censored circle-jerk, rather like the Greens blog.
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October 11, 2010 11:46am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

That’s the Kiwi spirit:

Kiwis appal at beer fest

Plenty of Real New Zealanders there. Sure Phil Goff would be an Honorary member.
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October 11, 2010 11:55am
Jack5

Wat Dabney at 11.48.

Have a look at a dictionary like the Shorter Oxford , Wat. You’ll see “our” has a far wider range of meanings that just pertaining to land title.

No chance I would ever jointly own a property with you, Wat. You’d sell your stake behind my back at the first chance.

Are you a libertarian, Wat? A devotee of the mad Ayn Rand? Perhaps a follower of an economic school whose ideology has been left in tatters by the current world collapse?

I don’t want to delve into the depths of real estate law here, Wat, but if you do you may be surprised about who ultimately owns freehold.
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October 11, 2010 12:03pm
Falafulu Fisi

Jack5 said…
Perhaps a follower of an economic school whose ideology has been left in tatters by the current world collapse?

Can you point to some refereed publications that support your assertion? I mean, don’t point to online opinionated article from leftie and anti-freemarket proponents, because that doesn’t count?
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October 11, 2010 12:14pm
Jack5

Falafulu Fisi (12.14 post):

No need to delve into the chicken-guts analysing world of academic economists, Falafulu. Just consider the way most every country is considering improving market controls.

Watch how in the face of China’s massive currency manipulation, the rest of the world is forced into some form of controls.

Totally free markets are great – when every player is free. Otherwise it’s like poker with a cheat at the table.
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October 11, 2010 12:20pm
Owen McShane

Jack 5 and others who believe classical market theory now lies in tatters.

The boom and collapse occurred only in markets with highly regulated land use, and especially those that promoted “sustainable growth management”.
The result was a boom and bust in the property market in those jurisdictions, which led to a consequent boom and bust in the financial sector that has financed these over regulated and over priced assets.

In those markets with light handed regulation there was no boom and no bust.
So whose theory lies in tatters?
All I know is that those of us who believe the market is the best means of allocating resources have been warning against this heavy handed regulation for years. So don’t blame me. Or my colleagues. Blame yourself for not listening to what we have been telling you for decades.

I wrote my first warnings in a report to the Reserve Bank in 1995/96.
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October 11, 2010 12:23pm
Falafulu Fisi

Jack said…
Totally free markets are great – when every player is free.

But which player that is not free? Can you give some examples.

Free markets is darwinism. It means that everyone doesn’t have the same (market) power, which contradicts of what you’ve just stated above.
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October 11, 2010 12:25pm
Jack5

Re Owen at 12.23..

Conceded that controls can be wrong and too tight, Owen. Like overly tight green belt controls etc.

But surely that doesn’t mean no controls at all is the best approach?

Re Falafulu:

Obviously China in currency. No float there.
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October 11, 2010 12:27pm
wat dabney

Jack5,

I think you’ll find that when it comes to property ownership “our” has a very specific meaning.
Let me put it this way, try selling some of “our” farmland and see where it gets you.

Am I a libertarian? Maybe. Maybe not. But what I am not is a fascist: someone who maintains that property title is held in name only and that the state can dictate its use and disposal.
The state is here to uphold property rights, not to legalise mob rule and trash them.
Remember, although you wish to just talk about farmland, the associated destruction of property rights would be universal: if farmland is the state’s to control then so is everything else in New Zealand. You might want to read some history of the 20th century to see how well that panned out.

And don’t you think you should perhaps find out just a little about Ayn Rand before you declare that her “ideology has been left in tatters by the current world collapse”?
Rand advocated sound money, which meant commodity money. And there would be no politically controlled central banks offering tacit bailout guarantees in a Randian world.
Basically, Rand stood for the very opposite of the situation which prevailed before the meltdown; yet in your ignorance you declare her ideas to have been “left in tatters.”
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October 11, 2010 12:42pm
Deep Throat

I see MickeySavage has finally outed himself on the Stranded……… please please please let him get elected as the Labour man for Te Atatu………oh what sport that’d be !
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October 11, 2010 12:46pm
James Stephenson

Now here’s interesting, if you like looking at NZ / UK parallels:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/conservative/8053271/Tories-must-not-expect-Miliband-to-leap-obligingly-into-every-trap.html

One of our resident lefties’ favourite hate figures Lord Ashcroft on the Labour Party leadership – some very interesting polling on the difference between swing voters’ views and those of party members:

While swing voters said Labour lost because of Gordon Brown, a lack of answers on important issues and a feeling that the government had run out of steam, the Labour movement blamed voters’ failure to appreciate what Labour had done, the Right-wing media and the way policies were communicated (not the policies themselves).
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October 11, 2010 12:59pm
Chthoniid

@Jack5

so let’s get this straight.
Before the GFC, we had a international financial system not based on free banking, but regulated by Governments, where the price of money was manipulated down by central banks & lending-risks were transferred to taxpayers using deposit regulations. And this was to sustain a debt-fueled housing and consumption boom in many Western countries. That led to massive macroeconomic imbalances that most economists repeatedly warned about.

So even though we had no free market operating with the banking system combined with perverse monetary policy regimes & deposit regulations in conflict with economic theory, the real problem in all of this, was the free market? And the solution is to move further away from the free market and apply more of the regulations that got us into the mess in the first instance?
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October 11, 2010 1:06pm
joe90

Kiwis appal at beer fest

Oktoberfest from The Big Picture.
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October 11, 2010 1:10pm
MT_Tinman

# Jack5 (2,156) Says:
October 11th, 2010 at 11:32 am

Re Crafar etc and the Christchurch academic’s support for foreign ownership (my 11.16 post)…

A friend has just pointed out to me that Hickson’s argument also is disproved by the case of Tait Electronics, of Christchurch.

Sir Angus Tait, a major beneficiary of Hickson’s university, rejected overseas offers for the company because he knew they would soon close it and transfer production overseas. Sir Angus left the ownership of the company in a trust to ensure manufacturing stayed in Christchurch.

Hundreds of jobs saved from foreign ownership, and given the spin-off and flow-on effects, perhaps thousands of Christchurch jobs. Plus continuation of a superb training ground that has spawned other successful entrepreneurs running export-electronic factories in Christchurch.

Where would the economic benefit have been in Tait selling out to foreigners, Mr Hickson?

Wonderful story Jack.

The government must immediately pass a law preventing foreign owners taking their land offshore.
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October 11, 2010 1:22pm
joana

Most NZers are very naive Jack5..if anyone wants to know what life under the Chinese would be like they could just ask the Tibetans. I have been calling the North Island ”New Tibet” for years now.
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October 11, 2010 1:36pm
hj

“The writer is one Stephen Hickson, who describes himself as a teacher in Canterbury University’s economics and MBA courses.

It disturbs me that he may be shovelling similar weak argument into Canterbury economics and MBA students.”
….

I think a lot of these types bond with people of their own level and don’t give a hoot about the people lower down. They don’t care about house prices rising as they are marketed offshore because house prices are never an issue on their salary.
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October 11, 2010 2:37pm
Luc Hansen

How nice to see support from Tom Hunter for a teacher brave enough to speak out against standards. These have been in place for over a decade now, and the only obvious result is in the poorer teachers taking refuge behind the prescriptionism of standards.

It’s especially interesting here since the justification trotted out for standards actually related to secondary schools, yet the standards are being applied to primary schools.

****************************************************************************************************************************************
Radio NZ at 3.12pm has an interview with the New Zealand authour of a book called “Tea with the Taliban.” He did what I would love to do – spend time amongst Afghan villagers and find out how they live in such mayhem and what they really think of the war being waged in their land. I actually purchased the book a couple of weeks ago but haven’t sat down to read it through yet, just dipped in here and there to get a feel for it. I’m looking forward to the interview.

The book was actually written pre-surge, and I just happened upon a page predicting what would happen if the surge proceeded and it pretty well mirrors reality – no prgress towards peace but lots more casualties. HRW have estimated that 20-30,000 civilians have died during the current war – and for what? Maybe we will find out in the interview.

Now I’ve got to go back to entertaining the toddler…
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October 11, 2010 2:49pm
Jack5

In response to Wat Dabney’s 12.42 post:

As I understand it, the Crown, ie the NZ Government retains ultimate ownership of freehold land. Freehold is the most liberal of the occupation rights, which include regimes such as perpetual leasehold and leaseholds over various terms, renewable or not. In that sense all land is “our” land. This is not fascism, as you suggest, but the system of land title we have inherited and developed from our British heritage. I would welcome a lawyer or real estate specialist spelling out the detail on this.

It’s rubbish to think we can sell our assets to whomever we like. I repeat the example of acceptance of a runholder wanting to sell his leasehold and/or freehold land to a dangerous foreign power for use as a training ground, even if it were disguised as a paintball and hunting ranch.

In regard to Ayn Rand, believe what you like about her. Her philosophy was relevant when Stalin and his successors still ruled the now defunct Soviet Union, from which Rand had fled. IMHO, her novels and philosophy are now quaint, passe, irrelevant.

In response to Chthoniid at 1.06:

Yep, a perfectly free market would be fine, but we’re never going to get it with most boomer economies, China, Germany, Singapore etc, manipulating their currencies while in “free market” countries currencies generally reflect current governments’ attempts to control inflation and economic growth via interest rates.

In response to MT_Tinman at 1.22:

The government must immediately pass a law preventing foreign owners taking their land offshore.

It would be easier to follow the pattern of China, whence the Crafar bid comes, and deny foreigners ownership of land. Leasehold should be sufficient, if we want foreign factory farming here at all.

FOOTNOTE:

I’ve just noticed that the half-page piece by Hickson in today’s Christchurch Press followed another half-page piece in the newspaper two days earlier (Friday) by Philip Burdon, chairman of the Asia New Zealand Foundation, about Henry, not about Crafar, but not totally unrelated — multiculturalism, multiculturalism uber alles. Here are the Burdon summary paragraphs:

In light of the Henry moment, here’s hoping the sharp lesson dished out by the public backlash will gibve impetus to changing the way this public media institution (ie TVNZ)has failed up to now to reflect the multi-ethnic reality that is so much in evidence throughout New Zealand.

And for this, we have Paul Henry to thank.

A successful mushroom farmer, Burdon was a National MP from 1981 to 1996, and Minister for State Owned Enterprises in 1996. He is listed as having been a director of Opus International Consultants from 12 December 1997 to 30 April 2007. Opus, still NZ based, is the former “brains” part of the old Ministry of Works. Privatised, it was snapped up by foreigners, and Malaysia’s sovereign fund ultimately owns the controlling stake.
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October 11, 2010 3:10pm
Jack5

Lucy Hansen at 2.49:

He did what I would love to do – spend time amongst Afghan villagers…

Go for it Lucy! What do you want done with your ashes? Would you like your head reattached before cremation?
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October 11, 2010 3:15pm
hj

Todd and Exxon abandon oil search
“”The data indicates the acreage has a high technical risk, and this is further amplified by the remote location and the harsh operating environment,” he said.”

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-business/exxonmobil-scuttles-basin-drill-site-20101011-16eyu.html
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October 11, 2010 3:38pm
Jack5

Re hj at 3.38….

Another of Gerry Brownlee’s NZ-the-new-Saudia Arabia dreams goes pop.

For about 40 years Invercargill mayors have been getting ready for a bonanza. The Ranfurly Shield goes, now this.
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October 11, 2010 3:49pm
tom hunter

How nice to see support from Tom Hunter for a teacher brave enough to speak out against standards.

Muhahaha.

Luc, you really are such a delightful old fraud. I try to take your woeful debating skills into account whenever I engage with you but this is really a new low as you wilfully try to mislead people who have not read the article.

The woman was not protesting about having standards, she was protesting at the crap standard of teaching in Britain today, the direct result of your imposition of socialist all-are-equal approach to the teaching profession. The article was also a good example of the punishments meted out by the collective to individuals who step out of line and think differently – your world even as you Orwell yourself into thinking that you’re the opposite thing.

As it happens you will be glad to know that I indeed do not support “National Standards”, I think they are counterproductive at worst and useless at best. I see them as simply another doomed effort to accept the system (your system) and reform it from the top down. I’ll see if I can find a right-wing article supporting that notion that you can glom on to.

However, although I do not support the means I do support the objective – the weeding out of crap schools and crap teachers – which is where you and I part company. I just happen to think that will only be possible when schools are allowed to lose students and face roles dwindling to zero, forcing corrective actions to be taken by the school and the teachers themselves. Such a solution will never be possible with the leftist thinking you and your ilk impose on education.
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October 11, 2010 3:52pm
bhudson

Luc,

“He did what I would love to do – spend time amongst Afghan villagers…”

We’re not stopping you Luc. If you had the genuine desire you would go. The fact you haven’t tells us a great deal.

“I actually purchased the book a couple of weeks ago but haven’t sat down to read it through yet…”

So you did your solidarity bit enough to claim support, but are not actually interested enough to read it. Smells like a bit of a fraud Luc. ‘I paid my $40. My work here is done’ – Luc Hansen
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October 11, 2010 3:59pm
MikeNZ

yeah but whats nice Tom, is that she’s female, brown, good looking and used to be a marxist.
Fantastic.
All the options they’d usually use against some one now negated.

delicious.
I enjoyed her brief speach, love to hear a longer one.
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October 11, 2010 4:08pm
tom hunter

yeah but whats nice Tom, is that she’s female, brown, good looking and used to be a marxist.
Fantastic.

Heh. I enjoy those aspects too, but I regret to inform you that, far from Luc’s head exploding from cognitive dissonance, he and the rest of the left will simply do what they’ve always done – expel them from the collective. It’s either that or start questioning their ideas – and you know that’s not going to happen.

In the old days expulsion meant a trip on an icy train to the Gulag, probably with a pistol shot to the back of the head when they could no longer work.

Nowadays it means something rather like shunning. Given that she spoke to a Tory conference it will probably be claimed that she’s not authentically female, not authentically brown and was probably never a real Marxist. They’ll probably even re-define what it means to be “good looking” – Luc certainly has with himself!
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October 11, 2010 4:20pm
wat dabney

This is not fascism

No indeed. If the state owned all the land that would be Communism. And if it doesn’t, then usurping the owners’ rights to control and dispose of their property as they see fit would be Fascism. Neither of these is a desirable or legitimate form of government. And remember, if you’re saying that the state can control ownership of farmland you are also saying we can have a show of hands and sell your house out from under you.

I repeat the example of acceptance of a runholder wanting to sell his leasehold and/or freehold land to a dangerous foreign power for use as a training ground

How would the nationality of the owners of such an establishment make any difference? Foreigners are subject to the same domestic laws as the rest of us.

In regard to Ayn Rand, believe what you like about her.

It’s a matter of understanding her ideas and accurately representing them to others. You don’t get the choose what you believe about them. You clearly don’t have the first clue, yet you are happy to tell us that you consider them “quaint, passe, irrelevant.” When did liberty become any of those things? Did I miss a meeting? And given the economic disaster of politically managed fiat currencies, together with the impending nightmare of exploding state-sector debt around the world, ideas like sound money are more relevant than ever.
Rand was essentially Austrian and, rather than being “quaint, passe and irrelevant,” there has been a resurgence of interest in Austrian economics.

“a perfectly free market would be fine, but we’re never going to get it with most boomer economies, China, Germany, Singapore etc, manipulating their currencies while in “free market” countries currencies generally reflect current governments’ attempts to control inflation and economic growth via interest rates.”

It should go without saying it is a benefit that imports from China are made artifically cheaper by such manipulation.
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October 11, 2010 4:32pm
MikeNZ

yeah how it’s funny how things are forced on usby the left.
They have other people in common with them.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/9717

Asmaa goes on to explain that, in Gaza, Christian Arabs are required to wear hijab as well as Muslim Arabs

Something is terribly wrong with this picture—especially since obediently wearing the Islamic Veil does not protect Muslim women from being raped and beaten within their own families, harassed on the streets, sold into sexual slavery.

It is ironic that so many western “progressive” activists are willing to sign petitions to “free Gaza.” But free Gaza from whom? From Hamas, from rigid Islamist misogyny, or from the Israelis who long ago, left Gaza and who are not now imposing such restrictions on women.
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October 11, 2010 4:39pm
Jack5

Wat Dabney posted at 4.32:

…Rand was essentially Austrian

She was Jewish, Russian born and raised. She spoke Russian. She spoke English with a Russian accent.

The pogroms of Jews under the Czars and the Russian October 1917 revolution (when she and her family were in St Petersburg) were huge formative influences on Rand. When the Soviet Union popped, her philosophy became irrelevant IMHO.

Wat also says in his post:

…It should go without saying it is a benefit that imports from China are made artifically cheaper by such manipulation.

Under Ricardo’s theory and its developments yes. But this overlooks sociological effects of decline in countries where industries are undercut. Big unemployment, erosion of the middle class, decay of industrial cities.
Funny how countries which have manipulated currencies and trade advantages have risen to the top (or just under the USA, but for how long it remains ahead is now questionable). Think of China, Japan, Germany, and among smaller nations, Malaysia and Singapore.
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October 11, 2010 4:41pm
Chthoniid

@Jack5

The countries you cite have also had for the most part, a long tradition of high domestic savings rates, a tendency to balanced budgets and low inflation. All factors that likely meant their attempts to manage their currency has worked largely by not letting it diverge to far from a market evaluation.

Many countries have tried to manage their currencies with disastrous results. Indonesia’s managed float came to a horrific end in 1997. Neither the UK, nor Italy showed they could manage their currency at levels outside their fundamental macroeconomic performance in 1991. And the UK and Italy were some of the largest economies on the planet. Trying to maintain a currency at odds with your economic fundementals is simply the fastest way we know, of transferring wealth from taxpayers to currency speculators.

China is not without it’s own financial problems. Banking failures have been staved off by the expedient of re-injecting them with Govt cash, in much the same way as the West. Similarly Japan’s decline in the 1990s, was a product of a banking collapse.
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October 11, 2010 5:07pm
Jack5

Chthoniid (5.07).

Yep savings are a big factor, either forced as in a totalitarian society like CHina, without a welfare system, or after scares of war and terrible inflation, as in Germany.

But there are examples of succcessful currency management. Bretton Woods wasn’t a disaster for most of it’s existence, and in the Asian financial crash of the 1990s, Malaysia managed its currency successfully, despite all the gloomy forecasts from Western finance commentators about the inevitable fate of the ringgit.
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October 11, 2010 5:14pm
joana

Chth..Saving is compulsory in Singapore and has been for along time….also compulsory in Malaysia. jack the ringgit was pegged to the us dollar..
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October 11, 2010 5:21pm
joana

On another topic , a facebook page has emerged..Keep Bob Parker Honest…
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October 11, 2010 5:23pm
tom hunter

Funny how countries which have manipulated currencies and trade advantages have risen to the top (or just under the USA, but for how long it remains ahead is now questionable). Think of China, Japan, Germany, and among smaller nations, Malaysia and Singapore.

You’re talking about mercantilism, not capitalism, and I’m surprised that you would draw conclusions based on the list you supplied, After all Japan and Germany were all that most people talked about in the 1980’s as shining examples for the US (and us) to emulate. Now, not so much. Japan As Number One is about #400,000 on the Amazon best seller list. We’ve yet to say whether Singapore and Malaysia get any further and the big question is whether China can transition in the way Japan could not – from an export-driven, trade-focused, currency-manipulating economy to one with more domestic focus and hence more balance.

You are probably correct that smaller nations such as NZ are in greater danger of having the crap kicked out of industries they’ve built up, but trying to resolve that via things like tariffs and other forms of protectionism will simply lead you down the path we followed in the mid-20th century, establishing industries that cannot survive and eventually fold anyway.

And other distortions can stuff things up. Right now the farming industry is rapidly heading for a situation where the only people who will be able to buy NZ farms will be the big boys who can swing the capital, and if that means Chinese capitalists then we’ve only ourselves to blame for allowing the asset prices to get so out of whack with the revenue streams.

When the Soviet Union popped, her philosophy became irrelevant IMHO.

Funnily enough I’ve never read any of Rand’s stuff. But from what I do know of it her descriptions of a state that slowly, then with increasing rapidity, reaches out to take over everything with bureaucracy, rules and regulations, that empowers politicians and bureaucrats above individuals, and produces an unholy clusterfuck of a society as a result – is one that sounds awfully prescient of our current situation. The fact that her books have been such big sellers in the US in the last couple of years cannot be put down to sudden surge in the numbers of Rand worshipers.
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October 11, 2010 5:28pm
Chthoniid

Yes, I know savings are compulsory in Singapore J, I’ve worked there. There are varied reasons why countries have high savings rates.

@Jack5 Bretton woods lasted only because it existed in a very stable trading climate and a world largely without large private capital flows. As soon as the US ramped up spending in the wake of the Vietnam War in the late 60s, the system unravellled quickly.

My point is that no country has actually managed to sustain a managed currency (now via dirty floats or pegs) outside of parameters driven by its macroeconomic fundamentals. Countries with high savings rates tend to run trade surpluses, countries with low savings rates run trade deficits. And that was just as true in the 1960s under Brettion Woods, as it was today.

In fact, the solution under Bretton Woods with our managed exchange rates was to throw the economy into recession to deal with trade deficits. That contributed to the melt-down of the NZ economy in the 70s.
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October 11, 2010 5:34pm
Jack5

Re Tom Hunter at 5.28 and Chthoniid at 5.34…

Well I guess NZ will have no say in whether the world retreats into protectionism. We’re just a cork on the economic ocean.

Non-economic factors will be important, such as the rise of the Right in Europe, or rather the fear of the rise of the Right in Europe.
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October 11, 2010 5:39pm
wat dabney

Jack5,

When talking about economics, when someone is said to be Austrian it doesn’t mean they come from Austria. It means they subscribe to the so-called Austrian school, like Hayek and von Mises.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School

Hence “Rand was essentially Austrian.”

As for currency manipulation, you seem to be concentrating solely on perceived negatives (and inventing most of those.)
Big unemployment? Not at all. Some short-term dislocation in certain industries for sure. No one is saying that everyone benefits equally. The point is that the benefits of imports (especially cheap imports) vastly outweigh the negatives; it’s just that the enormous benefits are widespread and dispersed whereas a factory closure makes for headlines.
Technology has made more people redundant that trade ever will. Would you ban tractors and computers? Hopefully not, because you understand that the long term benefits eclipse short term disruptions. The effects of trade are essentially no different to the effects of technology; they allow us to increase our consumption.

Erosion of the middle class? I’m not aware of any such effect. How would that even work? And besides, why would you favour the middle class over the relatively poor. Remember, the poor benefit much more from cheap imports than the middle class because they consume relatively more goods than services.

“Funny how countries which have manipulated currencies and trade advantages have risen to the top (or just under the USA, but for how long it remains ahead is now questionable). Think of China, Japan, Germany, and among smaller nations, Malaysia and Singapore.”

That seems to be all in your head. Germany, for instance, was famous post-war for its strong Deutschmark policy, yet you lump it together with China which suppresses its currency. Just what are you thinking? Do you even know?
And in what sense have those Asian countries “risen to the top”? Certainly they have seen very significant economic growth over the last two or three decades, which has been much written about. But there was no magic happening, nothing that needed explaining; those countries were simply going through an inevitable industrialisation process so their economies looked more like those of the West, with a greater percentage of the people in non-agricultural jobs. But the average income in China is still a small percentage of the average American wage. Just how does that qualify as having “risen to the top”?

Your argument doesn’t seem to consist of anything except ill-informed prejudices.

If China is producing goods for us more cheaply than would otherwise be the case, due to currency manipulation, then we are the winners and Chinese taxpayers and consumers are the losers.

“Non-economic factors will be important, such as the rise of the Right in Europe, or rather the fear of the rise of the Right in Europe.”

People like you, you mean, who oppose foreign ownership? And by the way, Fascism is a form of collectivism and therefore a left-wing ideology, not a right-wing one.
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October 11, 2010 6:14pm
wat dabney

http://seekingalpha.com/article/220895-china-might-rank-second-by-gdp-but-ranks-99-for-per-capita-gdp

“Adjusting for GDP (Purchasing Power Parity) on a per-capita basis, China (at $6,567) has a long way to go before it achieves “superpower” status, considering that it ranks #102 according to the CIA, #99 according to the IMF, and #92 according to the World Bank. In fact, on a per-capita basis in 2009, China ranked behind Namibia, Jamaica, Belize, Thailand, El Salvador, and Albania. And the last time the U.S. had per-capita GDP of $6,567 was back in 1932.”

Yes, really “risen to the top”
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October 11, 2010 6:18pm
jaba

you really have to do Trevs caption contest on Redaburt .. it was so easy and I was in such a hurry that I put on the wrong post .. oh well
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October 11, 2010 7:30pm
MikeNZ

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htterr/articles/20101006.aspx

The cost of Muslim intolerance.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htarm/articles/20100415.aspx
Cheating Chinese.
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October 11, 2010 8:02pm
Hurf Durf

I wonder what Johnny Gibson did for 10/10/10. Kill any kids, maybe? I imagine his grandkid supplied him with names.
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October 11, 2010 8:10pm
reid

“…a follower of an economic school whose ideology has been left in tatters by the current world collapse?”

But it hasn’t, for the ideology isn’t the issue, it’s the less than perfect administration of it in the last several decades. The GFC started when Greenspan dropped the rates to zero during the dot-bomb [predictable] disaster. This prevented those losses from working their way through the system and guess what, those became added to the real-estate bubble. Which may have been OK, but for extremely poor oversight verging on the criminally negligent if not downright evil, by many many authorities.

None of the checks and balances in this sophisticated world in the most sophisticated cities on earth, kicked in. None of them. Pretty soon greed and politics – keep the good times rolling – took over and then it was too late. The rest is history.

So personally I don’t agree with this view below:

So even though we had no free market operating with the banking system combined with perverse monetary policy regimes & deposit regulations in conflict with economic theory, the real problem in all of this, was the free market? And the solution is to move further away from the free market and apply more of the regulations that got us into the mess in the first instance?

In my view the root cause was lack of appropriate regulation. By “appropriate, I mean non-stifling, transparent, efficient, easy to comply with, simple. None of it was there.
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October 11, 2010 8:49pm
Jack5

Re Wat Dabney at 6.14…

Mad Ayn Rand’s philosophy was broader than economics, so if you meant to refer to Von Mises and co perhaps you might have spelled this out. “Rand was essentially Austrian,” remains a rather loose description of her philosophy when the description doesn’t appear in an economics paper.

Germany, for instance, was famous post-war for its strong Deutschmark policy

I think you’ll find that the beginning of Germany’s Wirtschaftswunder preceded the Deutschemark (introduced in 1948) reaching its international strength. Economics Minister Ludwig Erhard believed in neoliberalism (as your Austrians did), but the big surge in Germany’s economy in the early and mid 1950s came from two things apart from his economic strategy. Wages remained internationally low thanks to the influx of more than 15 millions German refugees and migrants from neighbouring countries. This coincided with a surge in world demand for industrial goods because of the Korean War 1950-53.

By the late 1950s, when Germany was once again a powerhouse it was also once again welfare state.

Regardless of the post-war recovery, Germany seems to be doing well on a different path now.For example, Der Spiegel in July reported Germany’s recovery from the world financial crisis as a “Keynesian success story”.

Technology has made more people redundant than trade ever will.

Agreed.

The effects of trade are essentially no different to the effects of technology; they allow us to increase our consumption.

Not sure about that; perhaps usually and over all; but trade benefits some more than others. Not sure that technology rewards differ to the same extent.

WD, you question the economic success of China, Malaysia, Singapore. I’m not sure what you mean here. Do you think these have gone backwards or stagnated? Obviously you were never visited them before and now.

As for:

Just what are you thinking? Do you even know? AND Your argument doesn’t seem to consist of anything except ill-informed prejudices.

And your linking me to the rising Right, fascist or not, in Europe, fuck your ad hominem comments for the irrelevancies they are. Perhaps if I lived in the Ayn Rand glasshouse with its reverence for supermen I might resemble the fogheaded fascists, who also loved a cult of superheroes. I don’t inhabit that now draughty, old, broken-paned structure.

However, as for the nature of fascism, you must be commenting on someone else’s post, I don’t recall raising it before now.
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October 11, 2010 8:55pm
Jack5

Further re Wat Dabney’s 6.14.

When I agreed with Wat’s assertion that technology has made more people redundant than trade ever will, I should have qualifed this with “in the short term”.

Technology is what has spawned huge new areas of employment from making cars and aircraft to computer programming. The old example they used to give in economics 101 was the buggy whip makers being put out of business by cars. Jobs axed initially but ultimately vastly more created.
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October 11, 2010 9:05pm
reid

Speaking of things economic, I assume people have been following the currency wars.

This is quite good background.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/8054066/Currency-wars-are-necessary-if-all-else-fails.html
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October 11, 2010 9:34pm
Hurf Durf

I hate Brian Rudman so much.
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October 11, 2010 9:51pm
wat dabney

Jack5,

The point about Rand remains: you completely misunderstood or misrepresented her ideas and then claimed that she has therefore been discredited by recent events. The truth is quite the reverse; the necessity of sound money, for example, has never been more obvious. The world would not be in the current mess if it hadn’t switched to politically controlled fiat currencies and a socialist banking system which put the taxpayer on the hook.

“When I agreed with Wat’s assertion that technology has made more people redundant than trade ever will, I should have qualifed this with “in the short term”.

And the same applies for unemployment brought about by free trade. That’s the point. Trade effects the mix of employment, not the overall level.

“you question the economic success of China, Malaysia, Singapore. I’m not sure what you mean here. Do you think these have gone backwards or stagnated? Obviously you were never visited them before and now.”

I don’t question their economic success. I’m just saying that they simply industrialised and supplied the necessary market environment. There’s no need to invent conspiracy theories about currency manipulation to explain their rapid economic development. It was inevitable.
But there is more to the story. China’s currency manipulations have resulted in a large number of businesses which are only profitable as long as the subsidy remains. So China either has to keep selling its currency cheap or risk huge political instability as these collapse. There is no free lunch. It will be nasty when it happens, and it will impact Australia (and therefore NZ) very significantly as demand for ore and coal plummets. Suddenly their currency manipulation looks like the liability it always was.

reid,

I don’t buy the story that the collapse was mainly the result of regulatory deficiencies.

That implies that banks etc would all simply go spectacularly bankrupt if the government wasn’t there to regulate them to prevent it.
Many of these banks are many decades old, and some are very old indeed. They didn’t go bankrupt before when regulations were extremely light compared to today, so the explanation really falls to the floor. So what changed?
You have to look at the lethal combination of many years of very cheap Greenspan money combined with the moral hazard that financial institutions realised they could lend untold billions to each other at no risk to themselves because the taxpayer would bail them out.
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October 11, 2010 10:50pm
tom hunter

For example, Der Spiegel in July reported Germany’s recovery from the world financial crisis as a “Keynesian success story”.

Hmmm. I’d be a bit careful about quoting Der Spiegel. They’re a fairly left-wing paper even in European terms so of course they’re going to bray about the wonders of Keynesianism.

However, the fact is that a couple of months ago Obambi endulged in one of his usual tin-eared pieces of diplomacy to tell the Europeans in general that they needed to have bigger stimulus splurges to get everything moving. America had done its part, now they had to jump in as well. None other than Angela Merkel basically told him (in diplo speak) to shove it: the German government was not going to piss any more money up against the wall, in fact they were going to cut spending as that would give confidence to the private sector.

That does not sound like Keynesianism to me, but then unlike Der Spiegel I don’t speak German, so perhaps they heard the exact opposite.
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October 11, 2010 11:18pm
reid

“That implies that banks etc would all simply go spectacularly bankrupt if the government wasn’t there to regulate them to prevent it. Many of these banks are many decades old, and some are very old indeed. They didn’t go bankrupt before when regulations were extremely light compared to today, so the explanation really falls to the floor. So what changed?”

Weapons of financial mass destruction, as Buffet put it, wat. That’s what changed.

And newsflash, there were no regulators dealing with that, even though they had better eyes than most of us plus it was what they did, during the day plus it was their charge and duty to do the responsible thing. None of which happened.

“You have to look at the lethal combination of many years of very cheap Greenspan money combined with the moral hazard that financial institutions realised they could lend untold billions to each other at no risk to themselves because the taxpayer would bail them out.”

You have to look again at what I said above for I said nothing about the bailout. I have said things about it however and they were along the lines of your sentiment and BTW, I agree with the cheap Greenspan money combined etc. What do you think I said above? That just further proves my point. Thanks for agreeing with me.
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October 11, 2010 11:20pm

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