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October 4, 2010 8:52am by David Farrar

General Debate 04 October 2010

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General Debate

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Chthoniid

@bereal

The point is if you want to confront a threat, you need to understand the reasons and motives of those people that generate the threat.

Pretending that there is some unified Islamic conspiracy of 1.5bn people, brainwashed by religion into wanting to cut your throat, is a Christian apocalyptic fantasy. Dead Iraqi babies after the 1st Gulf War have done more to create antagonism to the West than what some 8th C Arab guy wrote.

You want to confront Islamic militancy, fine. But hysterical over-reaction, fear-mongering and wild accusations isn’t contributing to a solution. It plays into the Muslim perception that the West has not ever relaxed its crusading zeal to dominate the Islamic world.
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October 4, 2010 8:38pm
bereal

Pete George.
You have been found out.
Actually there is no one home at your place.
Even Chthoniid probably is genuine.
You are just a joke.
It took 7000 odd posts but now you are revealed.
You will never be taken seriously again.
You must be gutted.
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October 4, 2010 8:39pm
Pete George

Gutted that you won’t answer simple questions? Hard to know if you are taking the piss or are actually serious. There’s a lot more interesting things to do here than worry about your silly little mission. If you choose to actually discuss and debate sometime let me know, otherwise just keep repeating your futility if you like. How long can you keep that up for?

I revealed myself after about 700 posts. How long will it take you?
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October 4, 2010 8:43pm
bereal

Chthoniid.
Try re read lofty at 10.00
Why cant you even begin to grasp the real point.
Why do you try and discuss red herrings.
Rise above the pete george type of crap.
I believe you are probably sincere.
Adress Emanuel Tannay.
If you cant. Which you havent.
I cant help you.
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October 4, 2010 8:50pm
krazykiwi

Ok. Are you acting on your own here?

Groan. I thought you’d grown up Pete. Obvious not.

@bereal – Pete did the “who are you acting for” routine on me late last year. It’s a poor form of slur. Just ignore if you can.
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October 4, 2010 8:56pm
Fletch

fot, when I was a kid, my folks used to have a couple of grapefruit trees and every year they’d freeze what juice they couldn’t eat right away. Then in the summer, we’d just put a frozen lump in a tall tupperware container, add water and sugar and enjoy 🙂
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October 4, 2010 8:57pm
reid

“Why cant you even begin to grasp the real point.”

Farken hell why can’t YOU guys grasp the real point. I repeat, what are the inevitable consequences of your advocacy and is this a good thing or a bad thing?

It’s a simple question. So far, not one of you Islamaphobes has answered it. What’s the matter, is it too complicated?

And BTW, it’s elementary threat management that to deal with a threat, you have to understand three things: its true nature, from whence it comes, and what drives it. It’s not rocket science, you know. So Clint actually was grasping the real point: i.e. reality, whereas apparently you weren’t, again.
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October 4, 2010 8:58pm
bereal

Why cant you guys stay on message.
i know its because you havent got a message.
Your best effort is to missquote the opposing argument and try to rebutt that.
You have been found out.
To missquote Dads Army,
“They d’ont like it up them, do they Sergant Mannering ?”
Like shooting fish in a barrel.
Taking candy off a baby.
You blokes are pathetic.
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October 4, 2010 9:02pm
Pete George

krazy, I was responding to her accusing me of similar – why don’t you diss her too? Or are you a selective slur sleuth?

In case you missed them:
“Your pupeteers cannot be happy with that effort pete.”
“Your pupeteers are getting angry mate.”

I asked you once, about a year ago, and accepted what you said. Should I hissy fit over two for two years? Or get over it. I have already.
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October 4, 2010 9:04pm
reid

“Your best effort is to missquote the opposing argument and try to rebutt that.”

So who did that, bereal?
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October 4, 2010 9:07pm
dad4justice

“Should I hissy fit over two for two years?”
Clearly you have insanity issues petey gal. Poor thing can you knit?
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October 4, 2010 9:08pm
Fletch

thanks joanna et al. I think it can be difficult to get across to some that you’re/we’re not for persecuting anyone. I don’t mind what religion people follow particularly, as long as it doesn’t infringe on the freedoms we all enjoy. I don’t have it in for Muslims or anything, but I think the importing of Sharia Law into countries – with it’s aim of converting everyone to Islam, by force if necessary, is dangerous. People should be aware of exactly what it is they are inviting in. Leftists got a shock when the Shah in Iran was overthrown and discovered their views were not compatible with Islam.
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October 4, 2010 9:10pm
Redbaiter

What’s your fucking problem Reid? We invade them, kill their men and convert the woman and children to Christianity. Forget this hearts and minds bullshit. Its a dead end advocated by mincing losers.
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October 4, 2010 9:10pm
Pete George

Occasionally Redbaiter let’s slip his true colours. If he had his way he’d be the last one standing.
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October 4, 2010 9:12pm
Jack5

New topic for a mo..

The Kiwiblog-exiled Philu isn’t in West Australia by any chance is he? Anyone know?

Somebody has been tasered a dozen times by the West Australian cops.

There are few people in the world who can piss authorities off enough to make them torture them in this way.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/man-tasered-13-times-by-wa-police-was-subject-to-excessive-force-says-report/story-e6frg6nf-1225933953993
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October 4, 2010 9:14pm
reid

“you’re/we’re not for persecuting anyone”

The issue is Fletch, your motivation doesn’t come into it. It’s their perception of whether or not they’re being persecuted. That’s the only thing that matters.

It doesn’t matter if to us their perception is unjustifiable, the only relevant fact is, whether they have it or not.

And therefore the question is, which actions right now are most helpful in order to move us away from them having that perception.
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October 4, 2010 9:16pm
Lucia Maria

Tauhei Notts,

Offer to juice them yourself. Or is that too much work for you?

As I said to Fot, from a purist juicing point of view, it’s 24 hours. But if you’re using the juice just for your vodka, you’re probably pickled enough that it doesn’t matter how old the juice is that you drink.
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October 4, 2010 9:17pm
krazykiwi

I asked you once, about a year ago, and accepted what you said.

[Emphasis mine]

Well I call bullshit on that Pete, as evidenced here, here and here.

You were in smear overdrive then, and lie about it now. Not very classy Pete. How about accepting that people comment on issues that are important to them, rather than try to smear them with comments like “Are you acting on your own here?”
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October 4, 2010 9:21pm
Luc Hansen

What’s your fucking problem Reid? We invade them, kill their men, rape their the woman and children and forcibly convert them to Christianity. Forget this hearts and minds bullshit. Its a dead end advocated by mincing losers.

Just helping RB with his accuracy.
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October 4, 2010 9:25pm
Chthoniid

@bereal

You have a message that is of a doubtful provenance, promulgated by a psychiatrist, who seems to be unable to recognise the factors that influence the Arab world. It’s not compelling. One of the big reasons al-Qaeda got defeated in S Iraq was because their attempts to foist Wahhibist zealotry on the local tribes, resulted in retaliation by the (largely moderate Hanafi) locals. They weren’t going to have their traditions and families screwed up by the fanatics. That immediately contradicts the Tanay position.

The invasions and interventions by the West in the ME aren’t red herrings. The outrage in the Arab world at the continued Western sanctions against Iraq after the 1st Gulf War- with the marked rise in child death rates- was palpable. If you think that this outrage is disconnected to the rise of Islamic terrorism, then please, show me the evidence.
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October 4, 2010 9:25pm
Fletch

I see that both the UK and America have issued warnings to people travelling to Europe to be vigilant because of the threat of terror attacks, and Sweden announced it has raised its threat alert to the highest level ever because of an increased threat of terror attacks….

If I remember the tv news tonight, even NZers have been warned to be vigilant. Meanwhile, the German PM has welcomed Islam with open arms.

“First and foremost, we need adopt a clear stance: an understanding that for Germany, belonging is not restricted to a passport, a family history, or a religion,” he told an audience in the northern city of Bremen.

“Christianity doubtless belongs in Germany. Judaism belongs doubtless in Germany. That is our Judeo-Christian history. But by now, Islam also belongs in Germany,” he added.

What is wrong with the guy? He obviously has no clue.
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October 4, 2010 9:30pm
bereal

Reid.
Why call people names?
call them Islamaphobes, a typical ploy when you have no cogent argument.
Call the opposition a name.
I never called you a name.
I would never ever call you a pathetic moron.
I wouldnt call you that, even if you had revealed yourself as one.
Cant counter the argument ?
Call them names.
Pathetic.
you should be ashamed of yourself mate.
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October 4, 2010 9:32pm
Fletch

I see that Germany has welcomed Islam with open arms, despite the UK and US warning those visiting Europe to be vigilant because of terror attacks.

“First and foremost, we need adopt a clear stance: an understanding that for Germany, belonging is not restricted to a passport, a family history, or a religion,” he told an audience in the northern city of Bremen.

“Christianity doubtless belongs in Germany. Judaism belongs doubtless in Germany. That is our Judeo-Christian history. But by now, Islam also belongs in Germany,” he added.

I do not think he knows what he is doing. On Friday, Sweden announced it has raised its threat alert to the highest level ever because of an increased threat of terror attacks….
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October 4, 2010 9:33pm
Fletch

I see that Germany has welcomed Islam with open arms, despite the UK and US warning those visiting Europe to be vigilant because of terror attacks.

“First and foremost, we need adopt a clear stance: an understanding that for Germany, belonging is not restricted to a passport, a family history, or a religion,” he told an audience in the northern city of Bremen.

“Christianity doubtless belongs in Germany. Judaism belongs doubtless in Germany. That is our Judeo-Christian history. But by now, Islam also belongs in Germany,” he added.
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October 4, 2010 9:34pm
reid

“Call them names.”

I said a lot of other things too, bereal, and they are Islamaphobes. They and possibly you as well are scared of something that IMO isn’t there.

But let’s just say it is. Well, so what?

Let’s therefore, deal with it, effectively. Duh. What other sensible thing is there, to do?

So how effective do you think it is to make the entire population paranoid?

There I go again, don’t I.
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October 4, 2010 9:35pm
Fletch

Hmm, my posts are being blocked as ‘spam’

LINK
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October 4, 2010 9:38pm
Redbaiter

“Just helping RB with his accuracy.”

Its beyond the bounds of human decency to mess with what others have written in any discussion forum. You do it because that is what you are, as well as being an ignorant uncivilised low IQ thug.
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October 4, 2010 9:45pm
Luc Hansen

Come on RB, have a laugh for once. I blockquoted it for clarity.

More importantly, I see you haven’t taken me to task for the content.

I guess I got it right, huh?
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October 4, 2010 9:48pm
bereal

Hey reid 9.35
?
That might of made sense in your mind.
Others may have inferred that you are pissed.
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October 4, 2010 9:49pm
Luc Hansen

Islamophobe is not a name, it’s a description.

This blog fosters Islamophobism: but if a Rick Sanchez appeared here I suggest he wouldn’t last long!
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October 4, 2010 9:50pm
Redbaiter

“Come on RB, have a laugh for once.”

Its not funny. Its the act of an unprincipled coward. In fact you’re never funny or interesting or anything. You’re just a repulsive neo-fascist.
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October 4, 2010 9:55pm
Lucia Maria

Redbaiter,

Your plan of forced conversion to Christianity will not work.

Force, violence, or fraud may not be employed to bring about the conversion of an unbeliever. Such means would be sinful. The natural law, the law of Christ, the nature of faith, the teaching and practice of the Church forbid such means.

~ Catholic Encyclopedia.
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October 4, 2010 9:56pm
reid

“Others may have inferred that you are pissed.”

Really? Wish I was. Don’t you?
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October 4, 2010 9:57pm
Luc Hansen

bereal

reid 9.35 makes perfect sense to me.

You guys here remind me of a neighbour years ago who instilled a sense of fear of dogs in her children because one had nipped her once. I had a few dog bites, but I never blame the dog. I look at what motivated the dog.

One of the funniest sights I saw was at a nudist beach in my younger days and one of our crowd, a plump ex-prop, ran down the hot, black sands towards the water. My doberman found the wobbling buttocks too tempting and ran after him to deliver an excited nip. The ex-prop was very understanding.
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October 4, 2010 9:58pm
Redbaiter

OK Lucia, so we leave that part up to your missionaries. At least they (the missionaries) won’t have to face the threat of murder anymore.
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October 4, 2010 9:58pm
bereal

Hey Luc
?
R U Pissed as well ?
What an embarrasing post.
Typical.
i feel sorry for you.
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October 4, 2010 10:00pm
Luc Hansen

Jeez, Lucia Maria, the Catholics didn’t stick to that one very well, did they?

Especially the fraud bit!
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October 4, 2010 10:00pm
Luc Hansen

bereal

your own posts are pretty much insensible shit, anyway, so I suggest you look in a mirror and direct your sympathy into it.
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October 4, 2010 10:02pm
bereal

Good night all.
Good luck to your families.
Even you Luc.
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October 4, 2010 10:08pm
dad4justice

I wish the ground would stop shaking as the house is only just hanging in. Another good one.
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October 4, 2010 10:25pm
Lucia Maria

D4J, I’ll pray for you tonight.
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October 4, 2010 11:09pm
Luc Hansen

Oi!

What about me!
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October 4, 2010 11:16pm
krazykiwi

From The Telegraph:

Wilders, 47, is charged with five counts of giving religious offence to Muslims

Wow, the Dutch have a law against giving religious offence to Muslims?!?

Are Hindu’s, Christians and Buddhist’s similarly protected by legislative cotton wool under Dutch law?
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October 4, 2010 11:40pm
Pete George

They don’t appear to be specifically anti-Islam laws.

Prosecutors have brought five charges of inciting hatred and discrimination, and the trial will scrutinise statements he made between 2006 and 2008.

Don’t know if we have similar laws. We don’t have the same open problem here, but if things blew up I wonder if they would check back through blogs for evidence. That is a real issue with posting to a virtually permanent public record. “Anonymous” in the privacy of one’s own home may give a false impression of protection.

Wilder seems to be another in the “free expression for me but not for them” camp:

“The freedom of expression of at least 1.5 million people is standing trial together with me,” he wrote.

“I’ve had enough of the Koran in the Netherlands: Forbid that fascist book.”

He seems to want the Netherlands to be as bad as the worst of the Islamic countries.
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October 5, 2010 6:48am
krazykiwi

He seems to want the Netherlands to be as bad as the worst of the Islamic countries.

If you think that Wilders’ wanting for forbid the Koran is “as bad as the worst of the Islamic countries” then I invite you to stand on a street corner in Khartoum, Mogadishu or Kabul and read from a Bible.

Different topic… any retraction from you as a result of my 9:21 comment?
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October 5, 2010 8:32am
Pete George

Ok. I asked a couple of times last year, the second time responding to you misrepresenting what I’d been saying. I’ve gotten over that – why haven’t you?

In this thread I was responding to bereal’s multiple bullshit, you chose to only comment on the response. I can live with that too, if he wants to post like a punctuated philu it’s his choice.
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October 5, 2010 8:48am
krazykiwi

It was three times, and I misrepresented nothing.

I had let the matter go despite not receiving anything approaching an apology from you.

However seeing you re-kindle the same smear on others and then lie about your past use of this tactic was enough to have me call you on it.

My job is done.
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October 5, 2010 8:55am
joana

Too much for me to comment on at this point..Reid.sorry don’t quite understand you…You seem to be asking me what will be the consequences of my advocacy…not sure but if I want to see the consequences of not advocating , I can just look at Britain. Aussies are incredulous about how naive most NZers are about islam..It is all on a scale..They have mosques popping up everywhere , they experienced the horrors of Bali , they have a lot more islamic schools, they have had Bilal Skaf and his ilk…Anyone who hasn’t watched the Beyond the Darklands style doco about him and his family and fellow gang rapists should do so…especially if you have daughters or sisters.
The pattern of islamization is the same everywhere…Awhile back I was shocked by the handful writing on this site , who seemed to think these things were happening everywhere but would never happen in NZ…The goal as for other groups is global domination..As I have said before it is not global domination except NZ , it is global domination including the Chathams…
We can learn from what has happened in other countries.
Raising awareness is not starting a witch hunt..it is warning people of the danger that awaits us..I do not say too much to my elderly friends because they will worry..on the other hand when I was getting a lot of letters published in a local paper, my biggest fans seemed to be the elderly..Some took my letters to their pastors..others sent them to relations overseas..they have memories of wars..war and conflict is not a theoretical thing to them the way it is to some younger people posting here.
It is good to identify which papers publish islam awareness type letters..and which journalists thru out the country are on to these things and good to get politically active as it is likely that there will be an early election.
There will always be people who do not recognize danger.. Those who did not recognize the danger presented by the Nazis are not here to tell the tale. A lot of expats got trapped in various parts of SEA when the Japanese invaded..many of them died ..others endured horrendous times in Japanese camps..some missed boats out by half and hour..Why didn’t they leave sooner? They didn’t recognize the danger..they got their timing wrong ..or perhaps they swallowed the official line at the time that “”Singapore will never fall.”
In this situation we can all choose which category we want to fall into…For me personally , I cannot do nothing…I cannot live with myself if I do nothing…
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October 5, 2010 9:32am
Pete George

Raising awareness is not starting a witch hunt..it is warning people of the danger that awaits us..

Why concentrate on just this one? There are many potential dangers that “await” us, none of which may happen to any degree.

One of the things reid is getting at – if you stir up “awareness” you may also stir up much more trouble (consequences) than there may otherwise have been. You know, like if you leave a bees nest alone the bees will do their thing but could potentially come and sting you, but if you keep poking a stick in their nest then you raise the risks.

krazy, if I could be bothered I could go back and show your blatant misrepresentations, but you wouldn’t apologise and I can’t see the point anyway.
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October 5, 2010 9:39am
MikeNZ

Joana
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.

I do not consider it a witch hunt at all.
The risk is there to our democratic way of life and it is insiduous unless we draw a line in the sand.
We are well down the orbit right now so we do have time and space to draw the lines in the sand.
Perhaps if we do it properly and on the right lines, it will help others as we aren’t fighting on our streets or in our courts.

Sharia law is the issue as is Political Islam in all the realms it exists in.
I wish I weren’t a Christian sometimes as then the wankers here who just fixate on that wouldn’t be able to and might engage.
my cross I bear it.
We have a lovely country and I know from the people I have met who have been Dhimmis in their own country’s that we must fight this and before we have too.
It took Wilberforce 40 yrs to get rid of slavery and it was a hard hard road for him.
We owe it to all those in the slavery of Sharia to be free just as we owed it to those under apartheid.

That’s why I consider those who refuse to see the reality of Sharia Law as enemies of democracy as why is it acceptable for Sharia in overseas country’s and in the UN which we are part of?
I suspect for some because they are lazy or cowards or even worse they’re non-white foreigners.
Sharia Law is unacceptable full stop.
Anywhere.
Just as we came to the aid of the Black South Africans so we should to the Dhimmis until Sharia has fallen and is not acceptable.
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October 5, 2010 11:07am
Kris K

joana 9:32 am,

Good on you, Joana – you are most definitely not on your own. There are many on this blog (and elsewhere) who are aware of exactly the kind of threat Islam presents to the entire West – INCLUDING NZ (Reid and others).

We will continue to refuse to be silenced by our critics; we will continue to put the truth out there. And perhaps some of us may end up in court and/or in jail for our convictions – so be it. The world needs more ‘Geert Wilders’ – those unafraid to speak out despite the consequences.

“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
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October 5, 2010 11:56am
krazykiwi

It took Wilberforce 40 yrs to get rid of slavery and it was a hard hard road for him.

I’m terribly proud of the fact that one of my ancestors was part of Wilberforce’s supporters in Hull (their shared birth town), and after which this person moved to Sierra Leone to help stall/close the slave trade. He moved to NZ in 1842 and was, as I understand, one of the first Europeans to comprehensively learn and translate Maori language.
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October 5, 2010 12:14pm
joana

MikeNZ and Kris K ..Thank you so much for your support…It is very much appreciated. Many times in the seven years I have been back here I have felt alone..sometimes I have felt as if I am talking a completely different language but I have persevered. Our time has come.
There is likely to be an early election because of the Rugby world cup..so now is the time to get really active politically…getting writing letters etc…it is likely to be dirty..aren’t they all.
I am hoping to formalize my network and get linked up with Geert Wilders’s Alliance but have other political things to get on with also.
Pete..I am sorry I haven’t got time to keep engaging with you…I feel like a PHD student trying to communicate with a 6/7 yr old who is struggling with learning to read I don’t mean this to be as arrogant as it sounds. I just need to speak plainly to you . You said you are not really interested in islam ..You don’t seem to want to inform yourself..Other people on this site are interested…and almost all of them are far more informed than you are..So you end up wasting peoples time.
In the time I have spent writing here in recent times, I haven’t had time to read my book on early islamic conquests. I don’t want to waste time.
MikeNZ and Kris K….this is something which needs revisiting…Remember the Sunday programme on child brides , child pregnancy in Ak and I think Hamilton…nothing seemed to come of this…These people are breaking multiple NZ laws…A Nat politican , a man ?? said later on TV…he didn’t think it was much of a problem or words to that effect..This is outrageous..
Do you know who this was?
.
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October 5, 2010 6:24pm
Kris K

joana 6:24 pm,

MikeNZ and Kris K….this is something which needs revisiting…Remember the Sunday programme on child brides , child pregnancy in Ak and I think Hamilton…nothing seemed to come of this…These people are breaking multiple NZ laws…A Nat politican , a man ?? said later on TV…he didn’t think it was much of a problem or words to that effect..This is outrageous..
Do you know who this was?

Sorry, Joana, I’m not sure who the individual concerned was.
But try throwing it out on each day’s new Gen Debate for a few days – someone will recall, I’m sure.
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October 5, 2010 9:26pm
joana

Thanks Kris.
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October 6, 2010 7:52am

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