General Debate 5 September 2010

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Yvette

True science is never speculative; it employs hypotheses as suggesting points for inquiry, but it never adopts the hypotheses as though they were demonstrated propositions.
– Cleveland Abbe
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September 5, 2010 8:02am
Pauleastbay

An oldy, but oh so true……………

The Haircut

One day a florist went to a barber for a haircut.

After the cut, he asked about his bill, and the barber replied, ‘I can’t accept money from you , I’m doing community service this week.’ The florist was pleased and left the shop.

When the barber went to open his shop the next morning, there was a ‘thank you’ card and a dozen roses waiting for him at his door.

Later, a policeman comes in for a haircut, and when he tries to pay his bill, the barber again replied, ‘I can’t accept money from you , I’m doing community service this week.’ The policeman was happy and left the shop.

The next morning when the barber went to open up, there was a ‘thank you’ card and a dozen doughnuts waiting for him at his door.

Then a Member of Parliament came in for a haircut, and when he went to pay his bill, the barber again replied, ‘I can’t accept money from you. I’m doing community service this week.’ The MP was very happy and left the shop.

The next morning, when the barber went to open up, there were a dozen MPs lined up waiting for a free haircut.

And that, my friends, illustrates the fundamental difference between the citizens of our country and the politicians who run it.

BOTH POLITICIANS AND NAPPIES NEED TO BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON
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September 5, 2010 8:18am
MyNameIsJack

The lies and deceit of the Republicans exposed –

)I got a phone call last night from someone who claimed to be doing a “poll” but it transparently wasn’t a poll at all, it was a ridiculous stealth advertisement.

An excellent expose of the latest dirty tactic being used by those who are still pissed off that they were unable to rig the ballot boxes for McCain in the same way that they rigged for Little Bush.

http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2010/this-is-not-polling/

And then, to round off your Sunday, an excellent destruction of the myth of Saint Sarah Palinbore.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2010/10/sarah-palin-201010

This spring and summer I traveled to Alaska and followed Palin’s road show through four midwestern states, speaking with whomever I could induce to talk under whatever conditions of anonymity they imposed—political strategists, longtime Palin friends and political associates, hotel staff, shopkeepers and hairstylists, and high-school friends of the Palin children. There’s a long and detailed version of what they had to say, but there’s also a short and simple one: anywhere you peel back the skin of Sarah Palin’s life, a sad and moldering strangeness lies beneath.
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September 5, 2010 8:29am
Guy Fawkes

Good job that the Labour Party here have never used phone polling in such an devious manner. Cough ….cough!
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September 5, 2010 8:56am
roger rabbit

Its a worry Money Bill Williams runs on for Chch at the rugby, and God shows his displeasure He could have been cursed by a former employer,who he has walked out on ??????????????????????????????????????
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September 5, 2010 9:06am
Inventory2

Somehow, blogging seems pretty low on the list of life’s priorities today …
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September 5, 2010 9:08am
Fletch

MyNameIsJack, like Guy inferred, sounds like what Labour were doing last election with their “phone polling”.
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September 5, 2010 9:19am
Put it away

IDontKnowJack – so those evil republicans managed to get the democrats who controlled Broward, Miami-Dade, and Palm Beach counties to chose a rigged vote paper ? You are a moron. Counties choose their own voting method in the presidential elections, and these Democrat county officials didn’t choose well.
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September 5, 2010 9:25am
jaba

what rhymes with truck?
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September 5, 2010 9:29am
Pete George

“what rhymes with truck?”

Luck – “Luck was with us in Christchurch today”.
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September 5, 2010 9:37am
tom hunter

Poor old tribalistic MyNameIsJackOff should have dumped the VanityFair piece on Palin into this blog before it started getting shredded by leftwingers who themselves don’t like Palin but also don’t like wafer-thin hackery.

It would seem a number of left-wing feminists are especially pissed off, but I think the appropriate question is this one:

If, like Vanity Fair, you’re in the business of churning out occasional hit pieces on Palin to take her down and/or convince your readers that she’s every bit the demon they believe she is, wouldn’t you want to make extra, extra sure that the details are perfectly accurate? You know her supporters will allege media bias; the only counterargument is to present an airtight factual case.

As it is, they’ve managed to turn this into Exhibit A in her argument for just how lame the “lamestream media” is. Amazing.

Perhaps Gross could get a job in NZ, he could improve the earthquake reporting.
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September 5, 2010 9:56am
Pete George

Great panel exchange on Q&A, Arsenau stops Harvey in his arrogant “I’m a writer, Bollard isn’t” tracks, and Arsenau and Brash put the heat on Holmes so he changes track rapidly.

Brash is very supportive of the deposit guarantee scheme (“it was essential”) and rubbishes media coverage of the SCF bailout as totally misrepresenting reality – and that’s exactly what Holmes did when he opened the show. They didn’t quite shut Holmes up but put him in his place, and he knew it.
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September 5, 2010 10:18am
Luc Hansen

Off for a Father’s Day outing, but some thoughts first:

1. I wish Sarah Palin and Nikki Haley would form a ticket for the Presidency. Not for their policies but for us boys to enjoy the eye candy! Yummy.

2. Labor government in Australia to be confirmed today?

3. Mediawatch on RNZ revisited the “The Nation” programme of three weeks ago and the rather strange approach taken by the interviewers. In particular, the made up quotes attributed to George Galloway, who can look after himself, and the nonsense that somehow we can go to Egypt, a third world nation dependent on US aid just to survive, and who does Israel’s bidding in relation to the siege, to provision 250 trucks. I would like to make these points:

a) Mr Fowler did not address the charge of the convoy being a political vehicle (excuse the pun). I would have tackled that head on and declared that of course there is a political aspect – it’s like a long protest march, raising awareness as well as donations.

b) The trucks will be left in Gaza as part of the aid.

c) The Viva Palestina movement is the sum of many parts and thus raises much more for the people of Gaza than would otherwise be the case.

d) If the political leanings of the participants is relevant, then so are those of the producer and interviewers and should have been declared. For example, is Richard Harman still a loony, fundamentalist, far right Christian? And has Plunkett, like Blair, spent a lifetime hiding his own fundamentalism?

Cheers boys!

Look me up at Dogs Bollix, 5.30 to 7.30 this evening and discuss these things face to face. Do you dare? I’ll be the old guy with a toddler hanging off me!
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September 5, 2010 10:22am
Put it away

So jack, to sum up the three claims in your post

– one hypocritical one about phone polling
– one “big lie” claim blaming Republicans for the idiocy of local Democrats
– and one piece of nonsense “anonymous sources” smear tactics that’s even rejected by some lefties ( how fucking dishonest must it be for that to happen) ?

Jeez jack, wanna tell us some more about “lies and deceit” ?
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September 5, 2010 10:29am
DRHILL

I see Bob Harvey wining the mayoral race in Christchurch now because of the earthquake.
Why?
The focus is on his handling of the rebuilding and support in the area.
Take that with the fact the Jim Anderston has not been on TV screens in the last 24 hours.
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September 5, 2010 10:34am
Redbaiter

“Poor old tribalistic MyNameIsJackOff should have dumped the VanityFair piece on Palin into this blog before it started getting shredded by leftwingers who themselves don’t like Palin but also don’t like wafer-thin hackery.”

Jackoff and his like propagandists are always three days to a week late with their breathless announcements. Like their ideology is a century and a half out of date.
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September 5, 2010 10:34am
Viking2

So Luc’s of for a picnic down by the Avon. Wonder if he will find any Palestinians down there today?
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September 5, 2010 10:36am
tom hunter

PIA

It was just his usual trolling. He figures that, given the readership size of Kiwiblog, it’s worthwhile putting out drive-by hits early in a thread, on the assumption that people won’t bother reading further down (it is GD after all).

Still, I figured there are some claims that are so outrageous that one has to bite in response to prevent the sliming spreading further.
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September 5, 2010 10:41am
Pete George

Like their ideology is a century and a half out of date.

Like you’ve often talked about going back to the ‘good old days”? 1860? 1740? Education as it was in 1904? All dates you have mentioned you hanker for.
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September 5, 2010 10:43am
wat dabney

Good summary of where we are with the IPCC

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/7981979/A-cunning-bid-to-shore-up-the-ruins-of-the-IPCC.html
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September 5, 2010 10:54am
Redbaiter

“Still, I figured there are some claims that are so outrageous that one has to bite in response to prevent the sliming spreading further.”

Good point Tom. The only place in NZ one really reads anything to counter the left’s terrified smear campaign against Palin is in the blogosphere. The NZ media are all just numb nutted followers of the NY Times, the Washington Post and other such poisonous Progressive outlets.
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September 5, 2010 10:57am
tom hunter

Iowahawk is on the money again with this humorous little take: Barack – Can We Talk?

Do you remember when we met at that big party in Denver back in 08? I mean when I saw you across that crowded convention floor, it was like, Oh My God. I don’t think I ever saw anything like you before. I was on the rebound from a bad relationship and you were so tall and articulate and, well hot. And then I couldn’t believe that of all the democracies in the room you picked me out!
…
…and I like to think I’ve really helped you grow and discover yourself. Like last year when I lent you $800 billion to pay for your demo tape and new rims for the Cadillac.

No, no. I’m not asking for the money back now, Paul Krugman told me you’re good for it. And please don’t think I don’t appreciate all the constructive criticism. It’s important for me to know when I’m not meeting your needs and when I’m holding you back.

Look, I know I’m not the prettiest democracy in the hemisphere, and I really can’t blame you when your eyes wander to Spain or Venezuela. It’s just been kind of hard to pay attention to my appearance since losing my job.
…

Read the whole thing.
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September 5, 2010 11:01am
Redbaiter

Given the differences I have with many Libertarian types on how best to achieve the degree of liberty that we yearn for in this corrupt and decrepit totalitarian socialist backwater, some of my Libertarian critics might like to read my latest post on the issue at Crusader Rabbit.
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September 5, 2010 11:08am
Pete George

That’s a good read RB, while I could quibble over a few points I generally agree with the gist of it. I’m interested in one thing in particular – are you suggesting a joining together of libertarians only with a higher common purpose, or all who want to support finding ways of achieving smaller government and more personal responsibility?
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September 5, 2010 11:30am
Redbaiter

I am trying to widen the perspective on liberty in NZ (one I say is too narrow due to the influence of the Libertarianz) and encourage a unity of purpose in confronting the primary threat to freedom- global socialism and those who promote it.

The Objectivist dominated Libertarianz are only a minor force but have been distributing unhelpful propaganda for a long period of time.
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September 5, 2010 11:37am
Pete George

Are your aims inclusive of anyone with a common purpose? Or is it a “them versus us” approach?

It’s not difficult to cobble together a small band of like minded idealists. It’s far more difficult to win the hearts and minds of the people. Successful revolution needs the people to buy into it.

I was disturbed by Beck this morning – he seems to be moving more towards trying to promote a religious revival, that seems more important to him now than liberty. Hints of mesianism.
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September 5, 2010 11:40am
Redbaiter

Is hell freezing over?? I too think Beck needs to lay off the religion. He’s at risk of rebranding himself as a television evangelist, and that would be a great shame. That’s Mormons I guess.

(Generally really nice people (I lived in Rexburgh [Idaho] for some time which is almost completely populated by Mormons [couldn’t even buy tea or coffee at the local supermarket] but strange beliefs really. Bear the scar too of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, a terrible event for them to have on their historical slate)
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September 5, 2010 11:50am
joe90

If we had a force like the American Tea Parties in NZ, the left would be on the run like they are in the US

On the run from halfwits like this, I fucking doubt it.
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September 5, 2010 12:05pm
tom hunter

I too think Beck needs to lay off the religion.

Since I don’t watch him and see only the occasional clips on YouTube I can’t comment on how he may be changing. However, I think the following article is important, along the lines of RB’s piece: I Think I See What Glenn Beck is Doing. It’s from the ChicagoBoyz website of all places. Apologies in advance for the quotes, but I think they’re key points to be made in case people don’t want to read the article:

He is aiming far beyond what most people consider to be the goalposts.
Using Boyd’s continuum for war: Material, Intellectual, Moral.
Analogously for political change: Elections, Institutions, Culture.

Beck sees correctly that the Conservative movement had only limited success because it was good at level 1, for a while, weak on level 2, and barely touched level 3. Talk Radio and the Tea Party are level 3 phenomena, popular outbreaks, which are blowing back into politics.
…
Beck is building solidarity and cultural confidence in America, its Constitution, its military heritage, its freedom. This is a vision that is despised by the people who have long held the commanding heights of the culture. But is obviously alive and kicking.

Beck is creating positive themes of unity and patriotism and freedom and independence which are above mere political or policy choices, but not irrelevant to them. Political and policy choices rest on a foundation of philosophy, culture, self-image, ideals, religion. Change the foundation, and the rest will flow from that. Defeat the enemy on that plane, and any merely tactical defeat will always be reversible.
…
But showing that the people who believe in God and practice their religion are fellow-citizens who share political and economic values with majorities of Americans is a critical step. The idea that these people are an American Taliban is laughable, but showing that fact to the world — and to potential political allies who are not religious — is critical.
…
Beck is attacking the enemy at the foundations of their power, their claim to race as a permanent trump card, their claim to the Civil Rights movement as a permanent model to constantly be transforming a perpetually unjust society.

He is nuking out the foundations of the opposition’s moral preeminence,
…
And as a Roman Catholic, I will extend my hand to Richard40 and all other non-religious fellow citizens who share the same civic, political, economic and Constitutional principles I do. For the small number of doctrinaire libertarians who cannot stand dealing with someone who goes to church, I can only say, wake up, look hard at what is happening, and see who your real opponents are.

We can have a civil discussion about the issues we disagree about when this current menace has been beaten back. We are in this thing together.
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September 5, 2010 12:08pm
Redbaiter

Yep, you’re right Joe of 90 links to bullshit. Nothing to worry about at all. That’s of course why you’re so desperately driven to discredit them. Roll on November- then we’ll see who the halfwits are Joe.
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September 5, 2010 12:08pm
Redbaiter

Why don’t you watch Beck Tom?

The article you reference is quite correct, and I support and understand what Beck is doing, but his shows since his rally seem to be straying into evangelist territory. Beck needs to be mindful of *all* of the reasons people came to his rally, and careful of where he puts his priorities.
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September 5, 2010 12:13pm
tom hunter

I don’t watch Beck because I dumped SKY three years go, having judged that the money could be better spent on downloading the programs I want to see.

Having said that I don’t appreciate when his positions are mis-represented and I made a reference to that the other day, where I contrasted Jack Hitt’s claims about Beck (on Nine to Noon of course) with what Beck actually said on the subject of gays.

Of course Kathryn’s audience probably lapped it up and those I know (predominately woman) will be shaking their heads in November asking me how America could have gone so crazy as to “follow” the likes of Beck.
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September 5, 2010 12:25pm
Pete George

For the small number of doctrinaire libertarians who cannot stand dealing with someone who goes to church, I can only say, wake up, look hard at what is happening, and see who your real opponents are.

Churchiness (or not) is but one of the problems, here and in the US. It is highlighted by “who your real opponents are”. Religious, racial, political priorities get in the way of what surely should be the real priority if you want to achieve positive lasting change – there should be no opponents, just people with different ideas. Politics isn’t like a bar room brawl where there are winners and losers (or losers and losers) – and lots of wasted beer. Shouldn’t we learn to drink together, even if we may sometimes prefer different brews?
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September 5, 2010 12:29pm
Redbaiter

“I don’t watch Beck because I dumped SKY three years go, having judged that the money could be better spent on downloading the programs I want to see.”

Well, few could argue with the rationality of that, and I frequently wish I could do the same. I only watch Beck occasionally today, much less frequently than when he first came on the scene, for I feel the ball is finally rolling now, and like a snowball down a hill, it will gather its own momentum and crush malcontents and propagandists like Joe90 and the rest like the insects they are.

I watched Beck’s shows after his rally to get some real feedback on the event, and noticed a distinct emphasis on religion that had not been present to the same extent before.

You’re sadly correct on perceptions regarding Beck in NZ. (same with Palin) The comment from the NZ media (and RNZ in particular) is all so one sided it demonstrates just how insanely fucked up that entity is. Incredible that an organisation claiming to be professional can be so unbelievably partisan.
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September 5, 2010 12:38pm
krazykiwi

UK Taxpayers spend millions paying for trade union activities

Millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money is being used by public bodies to pay the salaries of trade union officials, an investigation by The Sunday Telegraph has found.

Local authorities across the country are allowing hundreds of their employees to devote all or part of their working week to union, rather than council, duties – while their salaries are paid from public funds.

A survey of 77 English councils by this newspaper found that they spent around £11 million last year on the salaries of individuals who were employed by the councils, but in fact spent their time on trade union duties.

Some of the dedicated union workers were on salaries in excess of £50,000 a year. The system, known as “facility time”, also operates in Whitehall departments, the NHS, the BBC and other areas of the public sector – meaning that the true extent to which taxpayers subsidise trade unions is actually far higher.

More evidence of socialist rot throughout the public service in the UK. I’m not betting that it’s any different here.
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September 5, 2010 2:20pm
reid

This could be trouble – for Nick.

A former senior ACC manager says the corporation’s cuts to sexual abuse counselling are “all about costs”, contrary to ACC Minister Nick Smith’s claims they were about ensuring best practice for clients.

Frankly, I hope it is trouble for him. I really don’t like it when politicians of any ilk lie and obfuscate and generally treat us as if we’re fucking morons and we’re not clever enough to work out what it’s really all about and this is a prime example of that.

Sadly though the earthquake will let this slip under the reef-fish radar and that’s a real shame.
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September 5, 2010 5:15pm
krazykiwi

JAKARTA, Indonesia – JAKARTA, Indonesia (AP) — Thousands of Indonesian Muslims rallied outside the U.S. Embassy in Jakarta on Saturday to denounce an American church’s plan to mark the anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks by burning copies of the Koran.

The Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Florida, said it will burn the Islamic holy book Wednesday, the ninth anniversary of the terror attacks. Local officials have denied a permit for the bonfire on the church’s grounds, but the center — which made headlines last year by distributing T-shirts that said “Islam is of the Devil” — insists it will go ahead with the plan.

About 3,000 members of a hard-line Islamic group marched to the U.S. Embassy in downtown Jakarta waving banners and posters condemning the plan. The group organized similar rallies in five other cities across Indonesia, the world’ largest Muslim nation.

Religious leaders in Indonesia have condemned the plan and called on the U.S. government to use its influence to get the fire canceled.

I bet the Dove World Outreach Center folks also complain that a Mosque near ground-zero is grossly insensitive. Perhaps they could look in the mirror, and then have a Bible study on Mathew 5:39 (‘turn the other cheek’) rather than a Koran book barbeque.
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September 5, 2010 5:59pm
reid

“…an American church’s plan to mark the anniversary of the 9/11 terrorist attacks by burning copies of the Koran.”

This is possibly because that church evidently doesn’t understand the significance of this man’s works:

Among the thousands of books burned on Berlin’s Opernplatz in 1933, following the Nazi raid on the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft, were works by Heinrich Heine. To commemorate the terrible event, one of the most famous lines of Heine’s 1821 play Almansor was engraved in the ground at the site: “Das war ein Vorspiel nur, dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen.” (“Where they burn books, they will ultimately also burn people.”)
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September 5, 2010 6:16pm
krazykiwi

@reid – Yes, quite possibly. Additionally it could be they’re complete idiots.
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September 5, 2010 6:24pm
Pauleastbay

Does Simon ( I hate Lesbians ) Dallow standing in front of a pile of bricks add any gravitas to the situation in Christchurch?

FFS
and why was Tshai Tiffin standing out in the rain at Fox Glacier reporting on a tragedy that occurred yesterday, even a blonde could have figured out that she could have said the same thing standing inside the firestation.

I can see why they can’t be trusted with a credit catd
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September 5, 2010 6:40pm
Viking2

AYYY. Dallow never moved from last night. Doubt he even got his shoes dirty and last night his yabber was really over the top.
Is this the best the’ve got?
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September 5, 2010 7:04pm
reid

The focus for rebuilding should be on the nature of the ground and the foundations, rather than the building materials, he [a senior scientist] said.

Note to this Monday’s Cabinet: make sure this happens, because if you don’t, then almost certainly, it won’t, and wouldn’t that be a great big shame.

P.S. Note to Herald sub-editor who did this story: I thought the reverse-pyramid model meant you put the most important stuff at the beginning, not the end, of the story. Duh.
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September 5, 2010 7:05pm
reid

“Is this the best the’ve got?”

No, personally I’d put Paul Henry in as the anchorman. He’d be much more fun.
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September 5, 2010 7:10pm
Viking2

Read that as well and thought it was interesting. In the BOP we have to remove the black ash layer as it liquefies in an earthquake. That means that not a single house can be built without either removing that layer or if its on piles ,digging down into the lower layers. Now some of the black soil can be a meter or more deep. Not dissimilar and yet different rules it seems.
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September 5, 2010 7:12pm
Hurf Durf

Good to see that Billy Bonkers’ deranged obsession hasn’t faded. He’s going to end up like that Jason Lee character (fingers crossed).

More evidence of socialist rot throughout the public service in the UK. I’m not betting that it’s any different here.

KK – is it any wonder why the Liarbore Party, Gweens, Cuntcils and the left wing media in the UK is so desperately frothing at the mouth about the coalition e.g. the Andy Coulson nontroversy?
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September 5, 2010 7:18pm
krazykiwi

@Hurf – Yup. Frothing is the standard operating procedure for narcissistic control freaks who happily group together on the left.
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September 5, 2010 7:33pm
Viking2

Top Iran cleric rejects Holocaust as ‘superstition

* From: NewsCore
* September 05, 2010 12:14AM

A SENIOR Iranian cleric, Grand Ayatollah Nasser Makarem Shirazi, has dismissed the Holocaust as a new “superstition” for the West in a blistering attack.

“The Holocaust is nothing but superstition, but Zionists say that people of the world should be forced to accept this,” he was quoted as saying by the state news agency IRNA.

“Americans and Westerners are affected by newly appeared superstitions such as the Holocaust.”

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/top-iran-cleric-rejects-holocaust-as-superstition/story-e6frfku0-1225914297246#ixzz0ydeDUb6E
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September 5, 2010 7:38pm
reid

“A SENIOR Iranian cleric, Grand Ayatollah Nasser Makarem Shirazi, has dismissed the Holocaust as a new “superstition” for the West in a blistering attack.”

Isn’t it odd that just when it would be most counter-productive one side or the other comes out with something clearly designed to inflame and entrench the fixed beliefs?

For example, Israel with Gaza December and the Gaza Convoy and Iran just now and Hamas with those murders.

When I say counter-productive, I mean to the side that commits the action. Iran just shot itself in the foot.

Why?
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September 5, 2010 7:52pm
krazykiwi

Teachers point finger at criminal students

Under-fire teachers are turning the focus back on students after the Sunday Star-Times last week revealed dozens of teachers are still working in the classroom despite having serious criminal convictions.

The Star-Times revealed last week that 57 teachers have criminal convictions, with most remaining in the classroom, including one male teacher convicted of indecently assaulting a teenage girl, and others for violent assaults and fraud of more than $10,000.

The information came to light after an Official Information Act request to the Teachers Council, the profession’s watchdog body that can ban teachers from schools or impose restrictions. Education Minister Anne Tolley said she is looking into improvements.

Teachers, however, claim there are many more students than teachers who are criminals. Some teachers spoke to the Star-Times on the understanding they would not be named for fear of repercussions from parents and students.

A couple of problems here:

Firstly, there are approximately 30 times the number of students than there are teachers in NZ so any measure (eg eye colour, favorite jam flavor) will weigh towards students.

Secondly, and most importantly, what kind of pathetic comparative mentality makes it reasonable to justify one type of unacceptable situation by claiming the same things exists elsewhere? If teachers want to be revered in society then they need to tell their leaders and unions to stop behaving like complete idiots.
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September 5, 2010 8:40pm

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Offsetting Behaviour
Top 14 Predictions for Round 10
Stats Chat
Tory Whanau may have to sell Wellington mayoralty to make ends meet
The Civilian
The Accidental Engagement
Imperator Fish
Legal Beagle: Election '23: The Special Votes
Public Address
Making this movie might have been a mistake
Liam Hehir
Why I am retiring from political blogging
Kiwi FireWalker
Angie Warren-Clark: Meet the Newbies
Dan Moskovitz

editor@kiwiblog.co.nz

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