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September 3, 2010 8:10am by David Farrar

General Debate 3 September 2010

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General Debate

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Don the Kiwi

Veni, vidi, vici.
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September 3, 2010 8:15am
Nomestradamus

Boo!

Edit: second on mobile Kiwiblog (with all the disadvantages in involved) is still very commendable 🙂
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September 3, 2010 8:16am
Don the Kiwi

Beetcha.
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September 3, 2010 8:17am
kaya

or alternatively as was written on the wall of our old school toilet, Vidi, veni, vd. (It was the late 60’s after all……)
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September 3, 2010 8:18am
WebWrat

“Lenin called on Communists to seize the telegraph offices, telephone stations and post offices in order to control the means of communication. The American left has seized the means of cultural communication, hijacking the media, the educational system and entertainment, and turning them into vehicles for their brand of political indoctrination. And they’ve managed to badly devalue all three. The American educational system is a shell of what it used to be, the media is imploding and the entertainment industry keeps hitting new lows. Just as in the USSR and Venezuela and everywhere else, what the radical left controls, it also destroys.”

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2010/08/media-loses-readers-and-viewers-to-its.html
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September 3, 2010 8:25am
Redbaiter

Good post WebWrat. Spot on. Applies especially in NZ, where the political debate is chronically narrow as a result.
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September 3, 2010 8:28am
WebWrat

‘Islamization’ of Paris a Warning to the West

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2010/August/Islamization-of-Paris-a-Warning-to-the-West/
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September 3, 2010 8:29am
Redbaiter

Actually Webwrat, that article is so brilliant I saved it to my database and will make that blog a regular read. The cartoon too of Barack the gymnast making a complete mess of his exercise but still scoring top points from the mainstream media judges is brilliant. The brainless bimbo with the “call me sign” skewers all those blatantly partisan female political “critics” so well. Thanks again for a great link.
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September 3, 2010 8:46am
WebWrat

Daniel Greenfield’s essays are brilliant, Red, and need to be compulsory reading for all those that haven’t had their frontal lobe fiddled with by the anti Western monster.
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September 3, 2010 9:03am
Jinky

If a blogger demands an e-mail address from you before allowing comments but states it won’t be published is this a contract? So then when it is published would that be breaching the

[DPF: I doubt it is a contract, but it may run foul of the Privacy Act]contract?
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September 3, 2010 9:24am
MikeNZ

Webrat
Yeah thanks for the blog I saved it after one of your other postings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpztti4DBEM&feature=watch_response
http://www.newenglishreview.org/The_Iconoclast/

If you go down to 1st Sept you get to the written story that goes with the youtube clip.

No doubt the liberals say this isn’t an isolated issue, one has to ask the questions,
Why are Muslims fleeing Muslim countries and coming to the West?
Why then do we accept them when they have no intention of assimilating or honouring the freedom of Western democracy?

The Swedes are now reaping what they have sowed. Shame.
I wouldn’t wish Islamisation on any community.

Make Sharia law and the Burqua illegal in a democracy as they are inimical to freedom..
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September 3, 2010 9:37am
Fletch

Grrr, the mobile kiwiblog is loading today on my desktop – that is until I logged in.
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September 3, 2010 9:58am
Rick Rowling

WebWrat – I don’t think they’ve got Fox News yet 😉
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September 3, 2010 10:11am
Jack5

New topic for a mo…

National Minister Maurice Williamson is laying down the PR smoke before he allows the Natural Dairy to buy the Crafar farms. Williamson plays the race card, as a report from Fairfax newspapers shows. Pity Bill English didn’t kick him out instead of making him a backbencher.

Williamson, who is Land Information Minister, says opposition to the Crafar deal was racist, and smears British-born NZers by blaming them for the prejudice. Sorry, Williamson, my ancestors have been here since early settlers arrived a century and a half ago, and one of them longer than that. I’m sure most other Natural Dairy bid opponents are similar.

If there is racism in attitudes to foreign investment in NZ, IMHO it relates to who gives money to the National and Labour parties. Take the Canadians’ bid for a minority stake in Auckland Airport, with an offer to stay well in the administration and oversight background. Klark rejected this while allowing the community-controlled lines company in Auckland to sell the Wellington power lines network to China. Was that racism, too, Maurice Williamson?

Those who doubt Chinese money is flowing into our political parties should read the NZ Herald story link below. The fact that Jack Chen, the self-described man behind the Crafar bid, has been linked with a new Asian political party in Auckland is obviously a ploy that can be disregarded.

Williamson reveals a touch of racism himself in his attack on British-born NZers in yesterday’s speech. It’s a little reminiscent of the disgusting “bash a Pom” radio hate campaign in 1970s NZ. Okay to be racist against the British is it, Maurice Williamson?

The Minister overlooks an important distinction in foreign investmente. Some brings new industry and new expertise and some doesn’t. Natural Dairy doesn’t. Most of the Dutch and other recent dairy farmers bring expertise and quickly become hands-on dairy farmers. Natural Dairy just wants to buy prime NZ production land. This when NZers cannot buy land in China.

You also have to question the background of Natural Dairy. A key figures is Chen Fashu, reportedly one of China’s 20 richest people. He’s a gold mining tycoon (and therefore obviously either well up in the Communist Party or with strong links to its hierarchy). He is being accused of reneging on a promise to give US$2 billion to set up a Chinese equivalent of America’s Bill and Melinda Gates charity foundation.

Another key figure in the Natural Dairy bid,is Tang Jun, an associate of Chen, and reportedly Chian’s highest paid chief executive (he runs Chen’s family business. He has admitted he lied by claiming to have a Ph.D. from what is one of the world’s top technology universities, Caltech. He in fact bought a Ph.D. from a diploma mill.

Are we not allowed to question a bid from such people to buy our land?

You have to laugh at this morning’s Stuff story when it goes on to say Natural Dairy spokesman Bill Ralston agreed with most of Mr Williamson’s comments. Well he would agree with his client, wouldn’t he?

Good reading:

China link to National:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10667439

Link: Scandals hit Crafar bidders:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10665100

Link: Crafar player and new political party:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10669157
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September 3, 2010 10:32am
MikeNZ

jack5
Those who doubt Chinese money is flowing into our political parties should read the NZ Herald story link below. The fact that Jack Chen, the self-described man behind the Crafar bid, has been linked with a new Asian political party in Auckland is obviously a ploy that can be disregarded

We should be wary of this, as most Asian societies are more flexible in their corruption than ours, so buying off pollies is standard practice for some of them.

The Minister overlooks an important distinction in foreign investmente. Some brings new industry and new expertise and some doesn’t. Natural Dairy doesn’t. Most of the Dutch and other recent dairy farmers bring expertise and quickly become hands-on dairy farmers. Natural Dairy just wants to buy prime NZ production land.

This is to get access to the technology and systems, to transfer back to China?

This when NZers cannot buy land in China
Is this true?
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September 3, 2010 11:02am
Jack5

Further to my 10.32 post on Williamson and the Natural Dairy bid…

Could the Fairfax news mention of Ralston be a doff of the hat to Ralston for tipping the paper off about Williamson’s otherwise fairly irrelevant speech in Palmerston North.

If so, nice one Ralston. Earning fee from a client and at the same time being thanked for your PR by the target newspaper.

Re Mike NZ query: Yes, foreigners cannot buy land in China. They can lease it.
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September 3, 2010 11:03am
Viking2

There was also mention that the Chinese company has had the stoppers put on it in Hong Kong.
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September 3, 2010 11:22am
Viking2

Vindication for the critics of the Govt/SCF payout.

Uncle Bill is finally admitting its all not cosher.

Did SCF observe terms of scheme?

Friday, 3, Sep, 2010 9:51AM

An admission from the Government further checks required into how South Canterbury Finance observed terms of the retail deposit guarantee scheme.

Questions have been asked as to whether the Government was obliged to set aside $1.7 billion to pay out South Canterbury Finance investors.

Finance Minister Bill English says on the face of it the company did abide by the terms of the guarantee scheme. However he says it will need to be checked out.

http://www.telstraclear.co.nz/news/news-story.cfm?content_id=795337
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September 3, 2010 11:23am
Viking2

And then there is this.

$50 mill enough in the kitty

Friday, 3, Sep, 2010 7:17AM

The Government’s confident its retail deposit guarantee scheme won’t come under any more major pressure from finance company failures.

Around $900 million had been set aside to cover calls on the retail deposit guarantee scheme.

Prior to this week $250 million had already been allocated and it’s expected another $600 million will be needed to deal with the fallout from the collapse of South Canterbury Finance.

Finance Minister Bill English is satisfied there’s cover with the $50 million that’s left.

He says any of the finance companies that were going to collapse now have

http://www.telstraclear.co.nz/news/news-story.cfm?content_id=795328
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September 3, 2010 11:25am
Viking2

Even worse there is this.

Raising age of criminal responsibility

Friday, 3, Sep, 2010 5:57AM

The Human Rights Commission is fighting for children and young people to be kept out of the criminal justice system.

In a report to a UN review committee it suggests New Zealand should increase the age of criminal responsibility to 18.

Chief commissioner Rosslyn Noonan says increasing the age isn’t saying no action should be taken.

She says what we know is that if a young person makes an early appearance in a criminal court they end up in and out of the system for years.

The Human Rights Commission says the minimum age of criminal prosecution has eroded to 14 for most offences, 12 for certain serious offences, and 10 for murder and manslaughter.

Ms Noonan says if you can deal with people’s behaviour, mentor and monitor them and get them to contribute to restitution outside of the criminal system, you get better results.

She says what victims want is the offender to face the consequences and get restitution.

http://www.telstraclear.co.nz/news/news-story.cfm?content_id=795310
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September 3, 2010 11:26am
Repton

She says what we know is that if a young person makes an early appearance in a criminal court they end up in and out of the system for years.

In other words, sending young people to jail increases the chance of them becoming career criminals. It’s better to try to turn them into taxpayers. Do you think this is a bad thing to do?
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September 3, 2010 11:32am
Jinky

DPF can you please explain why it’s not a contract? It appears to me that the blogger makes an offer “you may place comments” but this is conditional on the commenter providing an e-mail address. If you accept this offer you do so with an expectation that the blogger will abide by their statement not to publish your address. I think a contract is implied when an offer is made with conditions on both parties.
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September 3, 2010 11:35am
Jack5

Re my 10.32 post:

Just noticed this report on Crafar bidders moderating their plans.

They’re not after the bones of SCF are they?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/4090152/Crafar-farms-would-be-buyer-rethinks-plans
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September 3, 2010 12:00pm
Kris K

WebWrat 8:29 am,

‘Islamization’ of Paris a Warning to the West

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2010/August/Islamization-of-Paris-a-Warning-to-the-West/

Indeed, Webrat.
And like many of us have been saying, it is only a matter of time before this becomes a reality here in NZ if we continue to allow uncontrolled Muslim immigration.

From your link:

PARIS – Friday in Paris. A hidden camera shows streets blocked by huge crowds of Muslim worshippers and enforced by a private security force. […]

His camera shows that Muslims “are blocking the streets with barriers. They are praying on the ground. And the inhabitants of this district cannot leave their homes, nor go into their homes during those prayers.”

“The Muslims taking over those streets do not have any authorization. They do not go to the police headquarters, so it’s completely illegal,” he says.

The Muslims in the street have been granted unofficial rights that no Christian group is likely to get under France’s Laicite’, or secularism law. […]

Some say Muslims must pray in the street because they need a larger mosque. But Lepante has observed cars coming from other parts of Paris, and he believes it is a weekly display of growing Muslim power.

“They are coming there to show that they can take over some French streets to show that they can conquer a part of the French territory,” he said. […]

Let’s not forget that ‘Islam’ means submission – the very aim of Islam is to conquer and bring the infidel into submission. That the native French are being pushed out is the MO of Islam once it becomes a dominant force within a foreign culture/nation.

But the Muslim birthrate is significantly higher than for the native French. Some Muslim men practice polygamy, with each extra wife having children and collecting a welfare check. […]

I wonder how many Muslims here in NZ have families consisting of multiple wives (upto four is permissible) with the additional wives being on the DPB and in state housing (or similar) and the state picking up the bill?

“It doesn’t matter how many there are,” he aded. “The problem is the people who follow Islam; they’re somehow in a political party, which has a political agenda, which means basically implementing Sharia and building an Islamic state.” […]

“We were expecting Islam to adapt to France and it is France adapting to Islam,” Robin said. […]

Once again, let’s not forget this is the aim of Islam; the creation of a global Islamic state under Sharia law.

A Warning to the West

The French parliament is expected to debate the burqa law in September. Jean-Francois Cope, president of the Union for a Popular Movement political party, has a warning for the West and for America.

“We cannot accept the development of such practice because it’s not compatible with the life in a modern society, you see,” he said. “And this question is not only a French question. You will all have to face this challenge.”

Never a truer word was spoken …
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September 3, 2010 12:16pm
Kris K

On RadioNZ, Nine to Noon with Kathryn Ryan thismorning:

Debate over proposed mosque at 9-11 Ground Zero
Talat Hamdani is a Muslim mother of 9-11 victim. (duration: 15′18″)

http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/ntn/ntn-20100903-0935-Debate_over_proposed_mosque_at_9-11_Ground_Zero-048.mp3

If you want a one eyed view on how an atypical Muslim sees the proposed Ground Zero Mosque this is the interview.
Most Muslims either think we’re stupid, they are stupid themselves, or a combination of the two.
The earlier link by Webwrat (8:29 am ‘Islamization’ of Paris a Warning to the West) puts this into perspective.
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September 3, 2010 12:32pm
Viking2

25 diary farms at bargain basement prices.-ex SCF
18 from Crafars little effort and Mr Hart has 16 for sale.
Market could be saturated for a wee while.
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September 3, 2010 12:35pm
Kris K

Also on RadioNZ, Nine to Noon with Kathryn Ryan thismorning:

Taranaki Youth Court Judge on effects of cannabis
Judge Rob Murfitt has contributed to a documentary ‘Hiding Behind The Green Screen’. The film will premier at Govett-Brewster Art Gallery Theatre in New Plymouth tomorrow – September 4. The DVD will initially be available free to courts, mental health services, police, schools and CYF within Taranaki. (duration: 16′54″)

http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/ntn/ntn-20100903-0908-Taranaki_Youth_Court_Judge_on_effects_of_cannabis-048.mp3

Quite an interesting interview – Judge Rob Murfitt linked the heavy use of Cannabis by youth as being a large contributer to mental health issues of youth, and youth crime in general, resulting from his perspective as a youth court judge.
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September 3, 2010 12:40pm
eszett

I have to laugh at the Christians talking about the dangers of Islamist. It’s like watching Coke fighting Pepsi.
“No, don’t drink Pepsi, it’s bad for you. Drink Coke”

Truth is, both are extremely bad for your health.
Consume rarely and with caution, best to avoid either completely.
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September 3, 2010 12:41pm
Kris K

Also on RadioNZ, Saturday Morning with Kim Hill:

Celia Lashlie: mothers and agencies
Researcher and social justice advocate Celia Lashlie has managed Christchurch Women’s Prison. Her new book, The Power of Mothers: Releasing Our Children, looks at offenders, mothers and state agencies. (duration: 47′16″)

http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/sat/sat-20100828-0905-Celia_Lashlie_mothers_and_agencies-048.mp3
[Note: 16.6 meg]

I have a lot of time for Celia Lashlie – well worth a listen.
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September 3, 2010 12:45pm
Pete George

KK: “if we continue to allow uncontrolled Muslim immigration.”

We don’t have uncontrolled immigration in NZ, Muslim or otherwise.
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September 3, 2010 12:57pm
Redbaiter

“If you want a one eyed view on how an atypical Muslim sees the proposed Ground Zero Mosque this is the interview.”

An atypical Muslim??
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September 3, 2010 1:02pm
WebWrat

The Smiths were unable to conceive children and decided to use a surrogate father to start their family. On the day the proxy father was to arrive, Mr. Smith kissed his wife goodbye and said, ‘Well, I’m off now. The man should be here soon.’

Half an hour later, just by chance, a door-to-door baby photographer happened to ring the doorbell, hoping to make a sale. ‘Good morning, Ma’am’, he said, ‘I’ve come to…’

‘Oh, no need to explain,’ Mrs. Smith cut in, embarrassed, ‘I’ve been expecting you.’

‘Have you really?’ said the photographer. ‘Well, that’s good. Did you know babies are my specialty?’

‘Well that’s what my husband and I had hoped. Please come in and have a seat !

After a moment she asked, blushing, ‘Well, where do we start?’

‘Leave everything to me. I usually try two in the bathtub, one on the couch, and perhaps a couple on the bed. And sometimes the living room floor is fun. You can really spread out there.’

‘Bathtub, living room floor? No wonder it didn’t work out for Harry and me!’

‘Well, Ma’am, none of us can guarantee a good one every time. But if we try several different positions and I shoot from six or seven angles, I’m sure you’ll be pleased with the results.’

‘My, that’s a lot!’, gasped Mrs. Smith.

‘Ma’am, in my line of work a man has to take his time. I’d love to be In and Out in five minutes, but I’m sure you’d be disappointed with that.’

‘Don’t I know it,’ said Mrs. Smith quietly.

The photographer opened his briefcase and pulled out a portfolio of his baby pictures. ‘This was done on the top of a bus,’ he said.

‘Oh, my God!’ Mrs. Smith exclaimed, grasping at her throat.

‘And these twins turned out exceptionally well – when you consider their mother was so difficult to work with.’

‘She was difficult?’ asked Mrs. Smith.

‘Yes, I’m afraid so. I finally had to take her to the park to get the job done right. People were crowding around four and five deep to get a good look.’

‘Four and five deep?’ said Mrs. Smith, her eyes wide with amazement.

‘Yes’, the photographer replied. ‘And for more than three hours, too. The mother was constantly squealing and yelling – I could hardly concentrate, and when darkness approached I had to rush my shots. Finally, when the squirrels began nibbling on my equipment, I just had to pack it all in.’

Mrs. Smith leaned forward. ‘Do you mean they actually chewed on your, uh…equipment?’

‘It’s true, Ma’am, yes.. Well, if you’re ready, I’ll set-up my tripod and we can get to work right away.’

‘Tripod?’

‘Oh yes, Ma’am. I need to use a tripod to rest my Canon on. It’s much too big to be held in the hand very long.’
Mrs. Smith fainted
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September 3, 2010 1:08pm
Kris K

Pete George 12:57 pm,

We don’t have uncontrolled immigration in NZ, Muslim or otherwise.

Depends on how you define “uncontrolled”, Pete.
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September 3, 2010 1:08pm
Pete George

Kris, what level of control do you want? If you were in charge of immigration control would you let any non-Christians in? Would you let Catholics in?
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September 3, 2010 1:12pm
Kris K

Redbaiter 1:02 pm,

“If you want a one eyed view on how an atypical Muslim sees the proposed Ground Zero Mosque this is the interview.”

An atypical Muslim??

Quite right, Red – one too many ‘A’s. 😳
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September 3, 2010 1:14pm
minto57

Is Maurice Williamson the Minister of Chinese Assets. because he is not speaking for New Zealand
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September 3, 2010 1:15pm
Kris K

Pete George 1:12 pm,

Kris, what level of control do you want? If you were in charge of immigration control would you let any non-Christians in? Would you let Catholics in?

Let me put it this way, Pete, I WOULDN’T let in anyone who wanted to; subvert the sovereignty of this nation, set up alternative legal systems, who hate the West and everything it stands for including democracy and freedom of speech, who practice female genital mutlilation, practice polygamy, who practice ‘honour killings’, etc.

Of course the historic practices and the current belief of the Vatican check a few of the above boxes in this regard, too.

I’ll get back to you when the Millennial Reign begins …
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September 3, 2010 1:25pm
Kris K

WebWrat 1:08 pm,

Very good, Webby – nothing like a Canon for getting the job done 😉
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September 3, 2010 1:34pm
minto57

As usual those trying to destroy the arguments of the sane, resort to pat phrases of racism , exonphobia, bigot anything that will belittle the person opposing.Mr wiliamson needs to remenber that culture and race are not the same.
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September 3, 2010 1:40pm
wikiriwhis business

@kris

You’re very naieve using the word ‘sovereignty’

No pollies used it for over ten yrs.
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September 3, 2010 1:45pm
joana

I agree re Williamson . The Aussies know why resources must be kept out of Chinese hands but all Williamson can do is slag off his fellow NZers.
The Stop the Islamization of America organization is planning a huge rally in New York for Sept 11th.
For anyone with Freeview , Geert Wilders , the Dutch anti-islamist politican will be on the Aussie Programme Dateline on TVNZ 7 this Sat night; the same programme is repeated at 9am on Sunday morning.
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September 3, 2010 2:00pm
Kris K

wikiriwhis business 1:45 pm,

You’re very naieve using the word ‘sovereignty’

No pollies used it for over ten yrs.

Naive AND old fashioned, WB – some people even think I’m beyond my sell by date …
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September 3, 2010 2:09pm
Luc Hansen

Oh migod, I can’t resist picking up on this:

Depends on how you define “uncontrolled”, Pete.

The answer to anything, eh, Kris? Especially, don’t worry about actual, accepted definitions, just make up your own!

Islamist threat to New Zealand non-existent?

Ah, that depends on how you define New Zealand, right, Kris?

Then there is this:

I WOULDN’T let in anyone who wanted to; subvert the sovereignty of this nation, set up alternative legal systems, who hate the West and everything it stands for including democracy and freedom of speech, who practice female genital mutlilation, practice polygamy, who practice ‘honour killings’, etc.

I wonder how Kris would go about finding out whether our immigrants subscribe to his little house of horrors? Torture houses at customs?

And I wonder if Kris understands that people come here to FLEE from the sort of practices he details?

And of course, all our immigrants hate us, that’s why they come here!

Finally, Kris, why do you discriminate against males. Surely MALE genital mutilation should be on your list as well?

So we have removed Muslims, Christians and Jews from our wish list, right? Who does that leave?

Oh, I know, Asians!

I guess we all better learn Mandarin real quick!
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September 3, 2010 2:11pm
wikiriwhis business

@luc

JK already told us to learn Chinese.
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September 3, 2010 2:13pm
Luc Hansen

@wiki

Sorry, I don’t pay a lot of attention to JK.
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September 3, 2010 2:35pm
Redbaiter

Glenn Beck on Progressive Universities where the ignorant and stupid and unwary are indoctrinated with a one sided political perspective on the Middle East conflict- (and other Progressive ideology)

“There was a time not too long ago in this country that we used to walk through walls of fire to make sure we weren’t funding Hamas or Hezbollah. I have news for you: there are a lot of universities that are just as dangerous with indoctrination of our children as these terror groups are in Iran or North Korea.”

http://www.mediaite.com/online/glenn-beck-universities-are-just-as-dangerous-with-indoctrination-as-hezbollah-hamas/
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September 3, 2010 2:36pm
MikeNZ

Kris
Good points though the progressives won’t agree with you as no one could possibly come here to subvert our democracy, simply as they have the right to as it’s a democracy 🙂

I’d say Sharia law is an offense to the human rights of all democracies so it makes sense to ban it completely and stop those who want to live under it and promote it from settling here, including refugees.
The Burqa is an affront to an open transparent society so same there too.

Similarly why should we support a any international organisation or coalition that entrenches Sharia and helps set up Islamic constitutions that discriminate against the non-Muslim populace as in Iraq and Afghanistan or anywhere.
Similarly nor should we give aid to any state or organisation that aids said state in discriminating against it’s citizens.

Further it makes sense to me, if we are really serious about democracy and freedom, that we should lobby international organisations that claim to value freedom and peace, that they deny membership, voting and speaking rights to such organisations and states until such time as they curtail, rescind or abrogate Sharia law and similar in their territories.
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September 3, 2010 2:43pm
MikeNZ

Where we stand does make a difference and we will pay in someway even if we think we won’t, I stand with countries that have openess and freedom of association, speech and religion, with free and impartial judiciary where ideas and innovation is given free reign.

http://www.meforum.org/2737/obama-un-veto
The 6 million Jews of Israel, who have only one vote in the UN, face a billion and half Moslems, who have 50 votes. It is the American veto in the UN Security Council that provides a potential line of defense for them

Other matters could also reach the UN Security Council in the next 12 to 24 months. Obama’s decision to reject compromises over settlements that had been crafted by previous administrations and to confront Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on the issue in May 2009 and March 2010 may have planted ideas in Arab minds. They may think that a wedge can be driven between the United States and Israel by putting the settlements and Jerusalem issues in a Security Council resolution that Obama might be loath to veto.

Nor does this exhaust the list. Hamas and Hezbollah could launch terrorist acts against Israel from behind civilian shields, and when, inevitably, the Israeli response causes civilian casualties on the Arab side, their allies can go to the Security Council to condemn Israel for “excessive” or “disproportionate” use of force.

It is reasonable to predict that Barack Obama will soon face the veto issue again at the Security Council. If Obama intends to be the first president since 1970 not to cast a veto in Israel’s defense, the consequences for the Middle East are going to be grave. If the United States will no longer stand in the way, why would Palestinians and Arabs feel they might have to make sacrifices in honest and direct negotiations with Israel when they have an automatic majority at the Security Council that can give them what they want for free?
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September 3, 2010 2:49pm
Redbaiter

Key Obama ally- numerous visits to the white House, works for a global taxation system.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/key-obama-ally-works-with-socialists-for-global-tax/

Incidentally, same extreme left union propagandist who has recently tried hard to smear Sarah Palin.
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September 3, 2010 2:49pm
MikeNZ

http://www.meforum.org/2676/the-israel-test

Asked why Israel moved from a socialist economy to free markets about 10-15 years ago, Mr. Gilder asserted that it was due to the 1000% inflation that Israel suffered, as well as the arrival of a million immigrants from the former Soviet Union who understood that socialism was not working.

Priceless, “who understood socialism wasn’t working”.
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September 3, 2010 2:55pm
MikeNZ

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/09/hillarys_choice.html

Just loved this piece showing the moral bullshit of the progressives, good read of the maldives constitution (note Islamic)

Thus, Obama has put his stamp of approval on a United Nations group whose many members acknowledge no other law but shariah law and who have in their constitutions clearly stated restraints on liberty and freedom so essential in American laws and values. And Hillary Clinton, once the darling of so many American feminists, accedes to this.

To understand shariah law, the site http://www.arabiguitar.blogspot.com gives an overview of what occurs under these Islamic regulations. Nonie Darwish has also clearly delineated the differences between shariah law and the American Constitution. Furthermore, reports indicate that torture is a common occurrence in the Maldives. Moreover, the “exploitation of foreign workers rivals fishing as the second most profitable sector of the Maldivian economy after tourism[.]”

Ironically, this is precisely what Governor Brewer is concerned about; this is why she has continually pleaded with the federal government to enforce immigration laws so as to avoid the trafficking of human beings. A salient feature of Arizona law S.B. 1070 addresses this very situation. Thus, “it is unlawful for a person to intentionally engage in the smuggling of human beings for profit or commercial purpose.”

Do read the whole thing especially you lurkers.
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September 3, 2010 3:02pm
krazykiwi

Anyone who doubts a global socialist agenda should watch the the vid behind red’s 2:49. Alarming stuff.
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September 3, 2010 3:07pm
Kris K

MikeNZ 2:43 pm,

Similarly why should we support a any international organisation or coalition that entrenches Sharia and helps set up Islamic constitutions that discriminate against the non-Muslim populace as in Iraq and Afghanistan or anywhere.
Similarly nor should we give aid to any state or organisation that aids said state in discriminating against it’s citizens.

Further it makes sense to me, if we are really serious about democracy and freedom, that we should lobby international organisations that claim to value freedom and peace, that they deny membership, voting and speaking rights to such organisations and states until such time as they curtail, rescind or abrogate Sharia law and similar in their territories.

So I guess the UN would have to be at the top of THAT list, Mike.
Sadly, I can’t see that happenning anytime soon – the place is run by Socialists, One Worlders, Greens, and Muslims – it’s a closed club.

And a Book I regularly souce intimates that the UN will likely become a corrupt One World Government sometime fairly soon. Luckily I have my inter-stellar ticket already booked ahead of time, and won’t get to see it come fully on line 😉
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September 3, 2010 3:10pm
MikeNZ

Kris
All they lack a source of independant income from countries donations (global tax??) and a standing army/peace force.

Every thing we have ever signed and ratified supercedes our laws and in fact we should (logically) change our laws to meet what we signed up for.
Bet no one here knows what we’ve signed up for the last 10 years 🙂
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September 3, 2010 3:18pm
MikeNZ

http://www.americanthinker.com/printpage/?url=http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/08/covering_up_for_george_soros.html

good article on one who wants a stronger UN and helps finance Obama.
As they say the piper calls the tune.
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September 3, 2010 3:20pm
Guy Fawkes

NZ needs far more Muslims, otherwise we will be out of step with the rest of the Western World.

They are particularly useful at hi-jacking Link Planes from Nelson and stabbing pilots.

And they are also really good for…………………………….

Does anyone think that those utter Bastards would be as welcoming and as tolerant of us in Islamabad?

Do you think they would do somersaults to allow us food that is NOT Halal.

Franky it is FIFO.

The Aussies have got exactly the right idea. Don’t like it, and want to change it. Then fuck off back home and take your shot with you.

Otherwise welcome and assimilate. And enjoy!
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September 3, 2010 6:28pm
Pete George

There are a higher % and a far higher number of Christians in Pakistan than there are Muslims in NZ.
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September 3, 2010 6:33pm
Kris K

There are a higher % and a far higher number of moonrocks on Earth than there are earthrocks on the moon.

… as we’re making stupid and irrelevant statements.
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September 3, 2010 6:43pm
krazykiwi

About 200 arrested in violence against Christians in Pakistan

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) — About 200 people have been arrested in a flare-up of anti-Christian violence in Gojra that left seven dead, a government minister said Monday.

Rana Sana Ullah, Punjab’s provincial law minister, told CNN that the paramilitary Rangers force was helping police and maintaining law and order.

Seven people were killed and 20 injured Saturday when Muslim demonstrators set fire to houses in a Christian enclave and fighting broke out, authorities said. Police said the Muslims were protesting an alleged desecration of pages in the Quran, the Muslim sacred text, at a Christian wedding.

I think life is safer for Muslims living in NZ, than it is for Christians living Pakistan Pete.
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September 3, 2010 6:49pm
Hurf Durf

Part umpteenth in “The MFM can crawl into the gutter and die” series of adventures.
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September 3, 2010 7:02pm
Pete George

I think it’s safer for everyone living in NZ than everyone living in Pakistan.
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September 3, 2010 7:07pm
krazykiwi

@Pete – that’s a weak dodge, even from you. You tried limply to suggest that because there are lots of Christians in Pakistan, they are obviously happy and welcome. That, of course, is absolute nonsense.

Bhatti told CNN that four women, two men and a child, all Christians, were either shot to death or killed when their houses were burned. About 50 houses were burned down, and more than 100 were looted by the protesters, Bhatti said.

These people were murdered because they were Christians. No other reason. Come back to me when Muslims are being murdered like this in NZ.
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September 3, 2010 7:14pm
Luc Hansen

Talking about socialism and Israel:

The land-owning situation in Israel today is as follows: 80.4 percent is owned by the government, 13.1 percent is privately owned by the JNF, and 6.5 percent is evenly divided between private Arab and Jewish owners.

(ME Forum)

The JNF land is only ever leased, not sold.

But I would be interested in being informed on this: under Israeli law, who owns the land the colonialist settlers have been stealing since 1967?

Does anyone know?
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September 3, 2010 7:15pm
Redbaiter

“that’s a weak dodge, even from you.”

Yep, PG- the master of weak dodges.
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September 3, 2010 7:19pm
kaya

Disgusting rip off by Ticketek over the U2 tickets.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=10670884

People in NZ need to learn to stop complaining and act, if something pisses you off then stop playing by the rules. Don’t buy the tickets. Just withdraw. When enough people do it the message gets through. If you aren’t prepared to do that then suck it up and stop bitching.
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September 3, 2010 7:25pm
Luc Hansen

And regarding Glenn Beck, a fact check of his spoutings finds truth strangely absent.
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September 3, 2010 7:25pm
Pete George

Redfizzle, you have just very weakly dodged out of a debate you pushed for but never started addressing the topic.
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September 3, 2010 7:27pm
Redbaiter

Haw haw.. what a loon.. of course, who would anyone who wanted and objective assessment contact other than Politifact?? Wake up to yourself moron- Just do a Google on “Politifact bias” and see what you get.
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September 3, 2010 7:33pm
Redbaiter

“you have just very weakly dodged out of a debate”

Piss off commie. Anyone who fails to find anything to disagree with in the foundation statement of Marxism is a proven communist. Not that in your case there was ever even a smidgen of real doubt.
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September 3, 2010 7:35pm
krazykiwi

@Luc – just fact checking your fact checks … Politifact crows:

We define Pants on Fire as a statement that is ridiculously false. Beck earned one for his claim that John Holdren, director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, “has proposed forcing abortions and putting sterilants in the drinking water to control population.”

.. and yet in 1977 he co-authored a textbook which includes these views. To wit:

Indeed, it has been concluded that compulsory population-control laws, even including laws requiring compulsory abortion, could be sustained under the existing Constitution if the population crisis became sufficiently severe to endanger the society.

One way to carry out this disapproval might be to insist that all illegitimate babies be put up for adoption—especially those born to minors, who generally are not capable of caring properly for a child alone. If a single mother really wished to keep her baby, she might be obliged to go through adoption proceedings and demonstrate her ability to support and care for it. Adoption proceedings probably should remain more difficult for single people than for married couples, in recognition of the relative difficulty of raising children alone. It would even be possible to require pregnant single women to marry or have abortions, perhaps as an alternative to placement for adoption, depending on the society.

It’s a fascinating, if horrifying read. The book was co-authored by Paul Ehrlich and Anne Ehrlich, those [now] aging proponents of eugenic population control.

So Holdren has proposed these things, ergo the ‘fact check’ is just bullshit. Still, he sounds like your sort of bloke Luc.
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September 3, 2010 7:40pm
Pete George

Haha RB, you put in a childish supposed trap because you can’t debate (it’s hard to debate without any substance).

You fit more of your Communist criteria than I do. Sounds like you’ve read Karl Marx too, you closet commie you. Adds up, you try to make the right look ridiculous (successfully) by pretending to be oblivious to your stupidity. I wasn’t sure for a while, but you have produced all the evidence.
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September 3, 2010 7:50pm
Redbaiter

Yawn.. its the North/ South Korean armistice negotiations all over again.

———————————————

Admiral Joy relates that during the Korean War armistice negotiations, he learned some special bargaining techniques from the North Koreans and Chinese. In his book, How Communists Negotiate, he labels and gives some examples of these techniques.

Most of the labels he ascribes are descriptive of the tactic that the other side’s negotiators used: e.g., Stage Setting, Loaded Agenda, Roadblocks, Veto, Red Herrings, Inches into Miles, Welshers, and Wearying Tactics. These were the bargaining tools that the North Koreans and the Chinese employed to frustrate the Americans, who, they knew, typically like to take on a job and finish it as soon as possible. This American penchant for “getting on with it” is widely known. It can lead our negotiators into traps unless they are aware of those pitfalls and analyze critically each move or proposal of our opponents. Unlike most Communist negotiators, we in the West (particularly we Americans) tend to view negotiations as a conciliatory process. Witness our American heritage of “horse trading” in the marketplace and our modern history of “good-faith collective bargaining” between employers and workers.

In contrast, history tells us, the Communist aim in negotiations is to carry on the “struggle” to achieve the triumph of Marxism-Leninism, not specifically to solve the issue at hand. The Communists proceed in negotiations so as to achieve at the bargaining table what they may have failed to achieve on the battlefield or by other means.

http://www.airpower.au.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1985/may-jun/hansen.html
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September 3, 2010 7:59pm
Luc Hansen

Tenuous stuff, KK.

But don’t stop there.

Next proof of Beck’s infallibility?

(excuse my chortles)
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September 3, 2010 8:33pm
Luc Hansen

Maybe readers should check out the complete details http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/29/glenn-beck/glenn-beck-claims-science-czar-john-holdren-propos/ of that particular fact check instead of accepting KK’s selective quotation intended to deceive.
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September 3, 2010 8:37pm
Luc Hansen

pants on fire, KK.
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September 3, 2010 8:37pm
dad4justice

Talking ’bout the fire put another log on Lucy.
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September 3, 2010 8:40pm
Luc Hansen

oops…I almost forgot:

meet me in the flesh Sunday night at the Dogs Bollix Bar, Newton, the venue for a fundraising event for Kiaoragaza, New Zealand’s contribution to the next Viva Palestina flotilla.

See you there.

Don’t forget your wallet.
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September 3, 2010 9:21pm
dad4justice

Unlike you Lucy I don’t support terrorists.
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September 3, 2010 9:23pm
Hurf Durf

They’re not terrorists d4j! They’re the resistance! Good ol’ Puke, keeping us up to date as to exactly what the prog set think.
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September 3, 2010 9:26pm
Luc Hansen

Dad, from what I read from and on you on here, you would be a perfect fit.

Hurf just needs to grow up.
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September 3, 2010 9:29pm
thedavincimode

Redpizzle – I thought Marx’s foundation statement had something to do with sitting on our bottoms with no gvernment and an abundance of everything. It was just that unfortunate intermediate phase that proved a bit inconvenient in practice, and generated a spot of consumer resistance (not to mention the odd corpse here and there).
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September 3, 2010 9:33pm
Hurf Durf

I’m not the one going to a fundraiser for fuckwits who want to play pirates, Puke.
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September 3, 2010 9:38pm
dad4justice

Hey Lucy is the fundraiser helping to buy more rockets so they can be fired into Israel?
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September 3, 2010 9:40pm
reid

Does it ever occur to those who condemn the Palestinians in the words done above, that they most times do so more strongly than logic would otherwise suggest is reasonable?

And if so, what does that mean with respect to the value of the argument vis-a-vis the emotional-logical value axis?

Of course, one will respond vehemently that one’s position is entirely logical and not at all emotional, not in any way.

Of course.
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September 3, 2010 9:43pm
dad4justice

Hey Lucy is the fundraiser buying up Hamahardware?
Big is good said the bomber.
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September 3, 2010 9:45pm
reid

Look do we want to throw insults or talk intelligently about the issues.

For example:

Is Israel trying to conquer and divide in the peace talks.

We all know that Abbas doesn’t represent all of Palestine.

Has Israel ever tried this before? Well, has it? Fatah, eg?

Is this just another long-play delay tactic? This time, to deflect Obama who’s desperate for some fucking win, somewhere. (Not that the largest beneficiaries of US Foreign Aid intend obliging him – no siree)

Why did Hamas kill a pregnant woman?

Are Hamas mad? Are they insane? Why did they do it? (BTW, if you’re dumb enough to think they really are mad and insane then you’re a fucking moron and try the Play skul blog)

etc.
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September 3, 2010 9:49pm
Luc Hansen

Say Hurf, just who are the terrorists?

Since the slaughter cynically called “Operation Cast Lead” ended 100 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli soldiers or settlers. Of that 100, even using Israel’s extreme definition of who constitutes combatants, 32 are securely identified as non-combatants.

That’s at least 32 murdered Palestinians.

I don’t condone the murder of four settlers by Hamas, but where’s the outcry over that 32 innocent Palestinians?

You make great play about terrorism. Aside from the fact that Israel is the world’s second greatest practitioner of state terrorism, Hamas in Palestine has about 60,000 members out of a population of about 5 million.

Get real.
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September 3, 2010 10:00pm
JiveKitty

KK: The quote you cite is not a proposal. Is there more to it that actually proposes x (where x is what Glenn Beck said was proposed) should occur at a certain point, or is it just what it is – a statement that x could potentially occur and that it occurring would be constitutional? I don’t have a stake in this debate you’re having with Luc. Just read your comment.
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September 3, 2010 10:09pm
Hurf Durf

32? So you don’t mind if I cast a cynical eye the next time you or some other member of your ilk whine about “Zionist genocide.”
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September 3, 2010 10:09pm
reid

“some other member of your ilk”

It’s our own little Israel right here right now.

I feel all cuddly.

And warm.
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September 3, 2010 10:13pm
grumpyoldhori

Reid, forget it, there will be no agreement between Israel and and the Palestinians, think the Palestinians will agree to the amount of so called settlements on the West bank, they will not.
And trying to get those so called settlers off the West bank will lead to civil war in Israel.
Besides can the IDF be trusted to carry out orders to move the settlers, I have my doubts as a lot of it comes from the West bank settlements.

Nope, Israel will go down the apartheid route even if it leaves them facing sanctions from Europe.
The USA of course will never put sanctions on Israel.
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September 3, 2010 10:22pm
Luc Hansen

Grumpy, I only disagree with this:

The USA of course will never put sanctions on Israel.

The USA once had Mandela listed as a terrorist.

Interests change, especially the national interest of the USA.
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September 3, 2010 10:27pm
Hurf Durf

Oh, hello, DenseOldFuckwit. When you eventually piss off to Turkey, tell loads of Armenian jokes to the locals, I hear they love that kind of shit.
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September 3, 2010 10:28pm
krazykiwi

@Jive Kitty 10:09, some quotes from the 1977 book ‘Ecoscience’, co-authored by Holdren.

Page 837:

Indeed, it has been concluded that compulsory population-control laws, even including laws requiring compulsory abortion, could be sustained under the existing Constitution if the population crisis became sufficiently severe to endanger the society.

Page 787-8:

Adding a sterilant to drinking water or staple foods is a suggestion that seems to horrify people more than most proposals for involuntary fertility control. Indeed, this would pose some very difficult political, legal, and social questions, to say nothing of the technical problems. No such sterilant exists today, nor does one appear to be under development. To be acceptable, such a substance would have to meet some rather stiff requirements: it must be uniformly effective, despite widely varying doses received by individuals, and despite varying degrees of fertility and sensitivity among individuals; it must be free of dangerous or unpleasant side effects; and it must have no effect on members of the opposite sex, children, old people, pets, or livestock.

Of course you can split hairs about a hypothetical proposal and an actual recommendation. I’m inclined to go with the latter in that basis the Ecoscience seems to offer evidence of an impending global catastrophe and then supplies possible solutions.

I can find no evidence of chapters being attributed to individual authors, so readers can make their own minds up about the veracity of the statement that he never made claims of this nature.
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September 3, 2010 10:54pm
MikeNZ

http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

More for you to chew on.
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September 3, 2010 10:59pm
krazykiwi

“Battle, animosity, and hatred—directed from the Muslim to the infidel—is the foundation of our religion”
— Osama bin Laden
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September 3, 2010 11:16pm
Luc Hansen

A personal interview, KK?
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September 3, 2010 11:18pm
reid

“Nope, Israel will go down the apartheid route”

grumpy the govt of Israel has already taken the people of Israel down that route via the wall. That will, in time, become first infamous, then hated, then torn down. Not by a hoard of Muslims I suspect, but if it is, then G-d help us.

Israel’s problem, IMO is that they have been sucked into a vortex of reaction: they don’t set the agenda, they react: e.g. to the latest us-initiated peace initiative, another bombing, etc. The public spin they put out is different, but if the U.S. hadn’t driven this, it wouldn’t be happening.

If you pretend to be the regional superpower [for relevant security reasons], you can’t afford to be perceived like that inside a govt [i.e. as reactive to anyone] and that’s why Israel can’t tolerate Iran, for Iran answers to no-one, in her region.

Meanwhile domestically, both Palestinians and Israelis have been taught and have seen for themselves since childhood the other side is bad indeed evil and doesn’t, can’t and won’t listen to reason. This is on both sides.

I could understand this if one lived within it and one had witnessed shelling, rockets, destruction, bloodshed and heavily armed soldiers from the enemy, whichever side I happened to have been born into.

What I don’t understand, is why people thousands of miles divorced get so exercised about it. I just don’t get it.
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September 3, 2010 11:19pm
Luc Hansen

reid

it’s called empathy.

Look it up.
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September 3, 2010 11:21pm
krazykiwi

When a group of prominent Muslims wrote an open letter to the American people soon after the strikes of 9/11, saying that Islam seeks to peacefully coexist, bin Laden wrote to castigate them:

As to the relationship between Muslims and infidels, this is summarized by the Most High’s Word: “We [Muslims] renounce you [non-Muslims]. Enmity and hate shall forever reign between us—till you believe in God alone” [Qur’an 60:4]. So there is an enmity, evidenced by fierce hostility from the heart. And this fierce hostility—that is, battle—ceases only if the infidel submits to the authority of Islam, or if his blood is forbidden from being shed [i.e., a dhimmi, or protected minority], or if Muslims are at that point in time weak and incapable. But if the hate at any time extinguishes from the heart, this is great apostasy! … Such then is the basis and foundation of the relationship between the infidel and the Muslim. Battle, animosity, and hatred—directed from the Muslim to the infidel—is the foundation of our religion. And we consider this a justice and kindness to them.
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September 3, 2010 11:24pm

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