General Debate 2 September 2010

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Swiftman the infidel

First.
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September 2, 2010 6:43am
Guy Fawkes

Seconded.
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September 2, 2010 6:45am
Inventory2

Carried unanimously.

DPF is up uncharacteristically early 🙂
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September 2, 2010 6:46am
Guy Fawkes

The SCF saga will roll on for a good while.

Bottom line is that a mad, but not bad old duffer just couldn’t let go of control.

Result: A huge Corporate and Compliance clusterfuck.

Disappointing is that on checking with some of my network is that this has been pretty common knowledge for 3 years or so.

Why was nothing done? Is South Canterbury such a special case? I will be fascinated to see how well the administrator/receivers reel in the loan book. My guess is that a lot will go MIA. The supporters and mates of Hubbard will cheerfully eschew their debt obligations. Because they can’t repay and should never have been granted other peoples cash in the very first instance.

Having had all depositors, bond and debenture holders,and the like been paid out on all our accounts. Then they will have no shame or guilt. Especially as Santa Claus won’t be at the Grotto any more.
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September 2, 2010 6:51am
Viking2

Oh dear we all were late. Nah DPF needed an early mimi.
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September 2, 2010 7:40am
Viking2

Spectacular way to finish your business.
He unfortunately employed a bunch of wide boys that screwed him and everyone else.
He lost control.
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September 2, 2010 7:42am
Lee C

‘Laptops are boring’ …Discuss
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September 2, 2010 8:11am
Fot

Where there is smoke……

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/digital-living/4086200/Wikileaks-rape-case-reopened
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September 2, 2010 8:12am
gazzmaniac

Viking2 @7:40 that is a disturbing thought first thing in the morning.
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September 2, 2010 8:14am
Chuck Bird

I have been wondering why there has not been a public outcry about chemist, Grant Gillard.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10670270

If someone had died while a police officer was fighting for his or her life it is highly unlikely the police officer would be charged.
There have been a number of cases where this has happened and I cannot recall a police officer ever being charged by the police in such a case. In the Stephen Wallace case the family initiated a private prosecution. I would expect the Officer A would have had his legal expenses paid.
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September 2, 2010 8:21am
MikeNZ

whats a mimi?
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September 2, 2010 8:21am
Banana Llama

A Wank?
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September 2, 2010 8:25am
MikeNZ

Nah, surely David has someone to do that for him, after all he’s a director?
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September 2, 2010 8:29am
joe90

Here’s my WTF! for the day.

(sfw)
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September 2, 2010 8:31am
starboard

why does it not surprise me…only in NZ…that fuckin scumbag who killed those two people in their car in Christchurch has been granted bail….
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September 2, 2010 8:42am
Inventory2

Interesting piece in the Dom-Post this morning about Michael Cullen’s 48-hour-from-go-to-whoa Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/09/scf-legacy-thanks-michael.html

Just a few more 000’s to add to Cullen’s legacy account …
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September 2, 2010 8:55am
Adolf Fiinkensein

The outpourings of ill informed ranting about the Retail Deposit Scheme are tiresome and juvenile.

Would you all have preferred a run on banks and finance companies in 2008?

Come on now. Tell me how else, in all the circumstances of the time, YOU would have managed the nation’s affairs.

Then tell me what advantage you see in throwing out SCF in April 2010 rather than allowing ONE LAST CHANCE for the current executive to recapitalize. Do you seriously think there is any significant difference in the net damage to NZ (which from accounts in this morning’s Herald are likely to be NIL) between a receivership then or now?

Until you can bring some calm reason to the debate you’d be better to stay home.
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September 2, 2010 9:06am
expat

OMG, it looks like the Labour Party have forgotten they aren’t in charge of the SIS anymore. Danyl at the DimPost outs the Labour Party who have been putting the squeeze on Civil Servants by complaining to their employers if said employees make mildly critical comments about ‘The Party’ on the DimPost blog.

Shades of 1984 indeed.

http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/blogcoms-unbellyfeel-labpar/
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September 2, 2010 9:07am
eszett

# Inventory2 (4,984) Says:
September 2nd, 2010 at 8:55 am

Interesting piece in the Dom-Post this morning about Michael Cullen’s 48-hour-from-go-to-whoa Retail Deposit Guarantee Scheme

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/09/scf-legacy-thanks-michael.html

Just a few more 000′s to add to Cullen’s legacy account …

First of all, IN2, I believe the Guarantee scheme had support from both parties at the time.
As Adolf pointed out, it was a pretty reasonable thing to do at that time.

Furthermore, it seems that the Government extended the guarantee this April

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10670221

More specifically, the Key Government needs to explain why it was so quick to give South Canterbury Finance its original guarantee or, most pertinently, an extension in April. At that time, it had not seen audited accounts.

So if anything you should blame English and Key for SCF than Cullen.
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September 2, 2010 9:16am
TripeWryter

The Dominion Post in its online edition today reveals that the Interislander has a new ferry – The Awatere.
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September 2, 2010 9:27am
PaulD

Viking2 “He unfortunately employed a bunch of wide boys that screwed him and everyone else.
He lost control.”

On Nat Radio around 7.15 Hubbard (through his doctor) told Plunket that he tried numerous times to get the person he thought was making bad loans removed but was ignored by the then management team. This was before Sandy Maier was appointed. Is this history being rewritten?
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September 2, 2010 9:29am
Inventory2

@ Eszett – If you read my blog-post, you’ll see that I have suggested that the scheme may not have been well administered by the current government. But the relevant bit from the Dom-Post piece is this:

However, it appears to be the irreversible consequence of the last government’s desperate scramble to match the retail deposit guarantee announced by its Australian counterpart in October 2008. Two days before the scheme’s unveiling it was just a possibility. The Treasury and the Reserve Bank advised finance minister Michael Cullen of the form such a scheme could take, but told him there was no need for immediate action. Forty-eight hours later the scheme was a fait accompli, announced by Helen Clark at the launch of Labour’s 2008 election campaign. Inevitably “i”s were left undotted and “t”s uncrossed.

You’re quite right; it did enjoy bi-partisan support. But for a policy of this magnitude in financial terms, I would have thought that a gestation period of only 48 hours was grossly inadequate. Policy made “on the hoof” is generally not good policy, and that was the point I have made in my post.
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September 2, 2010 9:31am
eszett

You’re quite right; it did enjoy bi-partisan support. But for a policy of this magnitude in finacial terms, I would have thought that a gestation period of only 48 hours was grossly inadequate. Policy made “on the hoof” is generally not good policy, and that was the point I have made in my post.

I did read your post, IN2. And I agree, policy made “on the hoof” is generally not good policy. But there was a sense of urgency at that time. (It’s funny how politicians get blamed for being to slow and then for being too fast.)

However why just blame Cullen, when National not only supported it. Who had the possibility to amend it for the last year or so?
Or take some institutions out?
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September 2, 2010 9:51am
Fot

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4086847/Child-support-system-overhaul

How about the government spent a bit of time chasing the low life who do not pay child support, hell, we might even get enough back to pay for the Hubbard bail out.
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September 2, 2010 10:30am
stephen

Ken Mehlman, the campaign manager for Bush/Cheney in 2004 and former RNC Chairman has come out of the closet. In the words of The Onion:

“It was worth orchestrating the 2004 gay marriage debate if it got him out of overcomitting to his boyfriend.”

Classic.
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September 2, 2010 10:59am
JiveKitty

Hey ACT, take note: http://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.com/2010/09/liberaltarianism.html
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September 2, 2010 11:27am
JiveKitty

@Adolf, et al.: Some scheme may have been reasonable to put in place at the time, yes, but this scheme was not.

See Crampton for a good analogy as to why not: http://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.com/2010/09/morning-fun.html
Also this: http://offsettingbehaviour.blogspot.com/2010/08/propping-up-finance-companies.html
Nolan as well: http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2010/08/31/thoughts-on-south-canterbury-finance-saga/
http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2010/09/01/sigh-more-like-scf/
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September 2, 2010 11:48am
grumpyoldhori

Damn it was funny at the time, some of us on the left saying fuck it let the cards fall as they may.
And some so called free market types from the right arguing that the free market needed to be saved by the use of corporate welfare.
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September 2, 2010 12:19pm
kaya

Is that the ultimate oxymoron, the free market needs a bailout?! Fuck it would be funny if it wasn’t so tragically expensive!

How about asking the questions about why a deposit guarantee scheme was needed in the first place?

Adolf said:

“Would you all have preferred a run on banks and finance companies in 2008?”

So why would that be a problem? Oh that’s right, because the money doesn’t actually exist and the banks operate a fractional reserve system where only a small percentage of funds on the balance sheets are real. Embezzlement actually.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/frb.html

The monetary system has traits so similar to religion the two are indistinguishable. Both are based on faith and not subject to reality.

The bailouts will continue because allowing a run on the banks/finance sector would expose the sector for what it is, the greatest scam in the history of the planet. Those who control the money supply will never let that happen while they can prevent it, but the options are running out and the collapse will come eventually.
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September 2, 2010 12:39pm
RRM

“Would you all have preferred a run on banks and finance companies in 2008?”

So why would that be a problem? Oh that’s right, because the money doesn’t actually exist and the banks operate a fractional reserve system were only a small percentage of funds on the balance sheets are real.

That Great Depression of the 1930s… how did all that come to a head do you think?

Pretty sure the runs on banks were real then.
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September 2, 2010 12:53pm
Pauleastbay

From page 487 GCHQ-The Uncensored story of Britain’s most secret Intelligence Agency – Richard J Aldrich Harper Press 2010

“..a team from GCHQ were assisting with the investigation into blackouts of the national power grid that had struck Auckland in New Zealand. They proved to be the result of electronic attacks on the country’s electricity distribution network, launched over the internet……The culprits were a group of hackers called the ” Anti Christ Doom Squad…………Once they gained access to the computers controlling New Zealand’s power supply, they focused on the distribution systems, picking a point where all five main power lines converged before coming into Auckland. By changing the temperature with in the sensitive cables they quickly put them out of action. Remarkably the whole attack was run from a laptop in a drug cafe in the back streets of Amsterdam.”

That hackers were responsible for the black out is news to me, was there any mention at the time or was it just blamed publicly on a faulty switch?

I would be interested if anyone else has heard about this scenario.
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September 2, 2010 12:56pm
Fot

How a Green mind works…

http://www.savetheplanetprotest.com/

This is what they have planned for us.
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September 2, 2010 1:08pm
OTGO

So using Lee’s writings he just saved 30 third world children by being shot today. Good result all round.
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September 2, 2010 1:20pm
krazykiwi

Mmmm Fot, I’m no friend of Greens – actually I think most of them are slightly unhinged and distributed across a wacko normal distribution curve. The guy shot dead at Discovery Channel was almost certainly at the uber-wacko end of that curve. Glad no one else was hurt.
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September 2, 2010 1:28pm
kaya

RRM – Have another read of what I said, you have missed the point.

I’m saying that the system is inherently flawed BECAUSE of fractional reserve practices, if we had a full reserve or gold standard system then a run on the banks would not be a problem because the funds would actually exist and not be just a faith based accounting entry.

“Let’s see how the fractional reserve process works, in the absence of a central bank. I set up a Rothbard Bank, and invest $1,000 of cash (whether gold or government paper does not matter here). Then I “lend out” $10,000 to someone, either for consumer spending or to invest in his business. How can I “lend out” far more than I have? Ahh, that’s the magic of the “fraction” in the fractional reserve. I simply open up a checking account of $10,000 which I am happy to lend to Mr. Jones. Why does Jones borrow from me? Well, for one thing, I can charge a lower rate of interest than savers would. I don’t have to save up the money myself, but simply can counterfeit it out of thin air. (In the nineteenth century, I would have been able to issue bank notes, but the Federal Reserve now monopolizes note issues.) Since demand deposits at the Rothbard Bank function as equivalent to cash, the nation’s money supply has just, by magic, increased by $10,000. The inflationary, counterfeiting process is under way.” by Murray N Rothbard

The full piece is here:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/frb.html

The paragraph near the bottom talking about Deposit Insurance is particularly interesting, especially as the whole article was written in 1995.

The problem lies in the fact that banks are allowed to create “money” out of thin air.
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September 2, 2010 1:42pm
roger rabbit

I WILL BE BACK DAVID, see you soon
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September 2, 2010 3:27pm
nickb

More freedom-hating rants from the National Party

Is killing a few Nazi’s going to be banned soon? Fucking hell, when does it stop.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/games/4088060/NZ-ministers-misguided-attack-on-game

“This game undermines the values of our nation, and the dedicated service of our men and women in uniform.

What puts our liberty more at risk? A video game or nanny state fuckwit lightweight braindead socialist politicians?
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September 2, 2010 5:33pm
JiveKitty

@Fot: “How a Green mind works…

http://www.savetheplanetprotest.com/

This is what they have planned for us.”

No, that’s how some mentally ill minds work.
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September 2, 2010 5:36pm
Rodders

Denison MP, Andrew Wilkie has just announced he will be backing Julia Gillard. That puts the “Gang of Three” independents back in the box seat.
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September 2, 2010 6:06pm
nickb

Damn it was funny at the time, some of us on the left saying fuck it let the cards fall as they may.
And some so called free market types from the right arguing that the free market needed to be saved by the use of corporate welfare.

Do you think if you repeat your bullshit and false assertions enough it makes them true?

Anyone who supports corporate welfare and bailouts is hardly a “free market” type.
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September 2, 2010 6:28pm
MikeNZ

Good point Nickb
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September 2, 2010 6:33pm
kaya

nickb – your point is noted re supporters of corporate welfare but still we have to wonder who was the moron who decided that SCF was too big to fail? If it had been Cullen or Cunliffe the howls of outrage from this blog would have been deafening.

The irony is that a large number of those who support this nonsense (including our blog host) would see themselves firmly of the blue camp. They are seriously arguing that this bailout is somehow different to what the socialists do. What a crock.
It is becoming more evident by the week that it is irrelevant which party holds power. Taxpayers’ money is theirs to do with as they will. (or their mates will).

The silence has been incredible.

BTW you make an excellent point about Mcully et al accusing Medal of Honour of somehow being bad or disrespectful. Politics for the sake of it at its finest.
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September 2, 2010 6:40pm
dad4justice

You can put down your job as a drug dealer on your IRD form but you get a swarm of lunkhead keystone cops if you grow tobacco.
What a disgusting country of wankers. Fuck kiwi’s are thick duhs.
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September 2, 2010 6:45pm
MikeNZ

Kaya
It is becoming more evident by the week that it is irrelevant which party holds power. Taxpayers’ money is theirs to do with as they will. (or their mates will).

sadly you may be correct.
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September 2, 2010 6:46pm
dad4justice

Anybody who says they’re proud to be a New Zealander needs urgent mental health treatment. GST rise next month. Fuck ever voting again in my life time.
How could this country get so bad?
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September 2, 2010 6:48pm
Pete George

I’m proud to be a kiwi, and not being depressed not in need of any medication.

But it might be better here without some of the pessimism pushing pillocks.
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September 2, 2010 7:13pm
dad4justice

A pillock is better than a pathetic spineless troll eh Petey Gal.
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September 2, 2010 7:14pm
MyNameIsJack

dad4justice is a proud kiwi. He says so on his own blog.

dad4justice needs urgent mental health treatment.

Still, I think we all knew that already. 🙂
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September 2, 2010 7:17pm
dad4justice

^^ Hi Paul with the split personality disorder. Who are we tonight fugely with the jack or Robert Magpiefoot with a gay wabbit?

[DPF: Stop it – now]
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September 2, 2010 7:19pm
nickb

Too true kaya.

I am fucked if my blue collar hardworking family are paying $400 a head to reimburse millionaire debenture holders.

Australia, here I come.
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September 2, 2010 7:38pm
nickb

Can all current National MP’s front up to a press interview and categorically say that none of them personally, or associated trusts, have investments in SCF?
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September 2, 2010 8:19pm
MyNameIsJack

[DPF: Stop it – now]

Yes mum
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September 2, 2010 8:34pm
Banana Llama

Someone should reskin the Taleban to look like Wayne Mapp and mod in law books to throw around.
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September 2, 2010 9:00pm
Viking2

POT- Kettle – BLACK

ACT MP Using Race Card, Says Turia

Contributor:
Voxy News Engine Voxy News Engine
Thursday, 2 September, 2010 – 17:24

Wellington, Sept 2 NZPA – Maori Party co-leader Tariana Turia has accused ACT MP David Garrett of using racial division to win votes after he criticised aspects of National’s changes to the Foreshore and Seabed Act.

Mr Garrett has been in Northland speaking about foreshore and seabed issues and said ACT opposed Labour’s 2004 legislation because there was no right for Maori to take property claims to court.

But he said recent changes agreed to by National and the Maori Party would take it too far in the opposite direction.

The agreement means the foreshore and seabed will always remain a public domain and existing freehold titles will continue, but Maori will retain a right to seek customary title either through direct negotiations with the Crown or through court processes — although the threshold will be high.

Mr Garrett, the party’s Maori affairs spokesman, told a public meeting that that could lead to the public losing free access to some beaches. He claimed he had heard of cases where pakeha had already been told to clear off beaches in Northland.

Mrs Turia said Mr Garrett was playing the race card in a bid to create division and win votes.

“I’m tired of the ACT Party playing games at the expense of unity or the responsibility to address issues of justice,” she said today.

“These tactics play on the fears and prejudices that are held by the few.”

Mrs Turia said Mr Garrett would search for a Maori who might deny access, “but I’m surprised that he doesn’t take the same line of attack in hunting out those non-Maori who do not allow access to their private beaches”.

She said unity was needed rather than division.

Mr Garrett rejected Mrs Turia’s claims about playing the race card and said he was pointing out downfalls in the legislation, which will soon be introduced to Parliament.

“What ACT does not agree with is National’s move to repeal Labour’s Foreshore and Seabed Act and replace it with a new law that proposes that the Government, in the form of the attorney-general, can decide whether iwi should be allowed customary title or not,” he said.

“This is of grave concern as it is not a fair and transparent process, and can be manipulated by successive governments to further their own political advantage.”

Mr Garrett said ACT would be supportive if cases went through the court process and customary title was granted for an area of land, but not the creation of legislation “which will allow secret back-room deals to be done away from public scrutiny”.

http://www.voxy.co.nz/politics/act-mp-using-race-card-says-turia/5/61320
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September 2, 2010 9:03pm
Southern Raider

Just seen on Close Up about the proposed development of New Chums beach.

What an absolute joke. For once I have to agree with Phil Goff. If the Govt can find $1.6 billion to bail out some idiot investors they should be able to easily find another $20 million to save the best beach in NZ and one of the best in the whole world.

What the hell is the Thames Council on? Everyone gets up in arms about a stupid marina in Whangamata which is already heavily developed yet the Council is planning to approve wrecking this beach.

For those who haven’t been there your missing out. I thought it was a load of crap that we could have one of the best beaches in the world with 2 hours of Auckland, but it is fantastic.
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September 2, 2010 9:12pm
Luc Hansen

Interesting discussion today on aspects of the so-called free market.

Of course, there is no such thing as a free market. At the very least, a central bank regulating the nominal interest rate is a necessity.

So a free market may be defined thus: a free market is a market that is as regulation-free as it can sensibly be. This definition removes a whole layer of pointless argument and focuses one’s thinking on the core principle of just what is the appropriate level of regulation.

So are bailouts an economic or a political necessity, or just unnecessary?

Without doubt, the political necessity is always obvious, as short-term democratic governments always have a vested interest in minimising disruption to their voters, even though some politicians, for example, Roger Douglas, try to override this axiom. Well, perhaps that why Douglas is now reduced to a figure on impotence, inviting scorn, even.

On this basis, the SCF bailout, with most loans being centred on South Island businesses, was politically necessary for this National government.

But was it economically necessary? With the excellent level of information provided by Sandy Maier, one would have to say that a normal receivership could have operated quite successfully. One billion dollars of good loans that would have found a home, and only 600 million dollars, at the most, “missing” does not seem an insurmountable hurdle for our economy to handle, especially at a time when NZ is rated as a strong economy.

Overall, this failure of business management, at least so far, has been handled with aplomb by the government, even though it could be regarded as acting mainly with its own self-interest as its paramount concern.

Well, there’s nothing wrong, in a democracy, with a government that prefers to survive rather than crash and burn as Lange/Douglas caused their Labour government to do.

So well done John and Bill in terms of looking after yourselves, with our money.

But Bill’s used to that, isn’t he?
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September 2, 2010 9:19pm
Luc Hansen

Where’s John Ansell?

I would be interested in his take on the monstering of the Aussies by the Silver Ferns tonight.

I guess they won because they don’t keep score in kids games, John?
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September 2, 2010 9:23pm

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