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September 25, 2010 10:27am by David Farrar

General Debate 25 September 2010

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Inventory2

First? First!

DPF must have had a big night 🙂
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September 25, 2010 10:28am
MyNameIsJack

Poser…:-)
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September 25, 2010 10:32am
Yvette

Here it goes, what several who comment in this blog have been waiting for,
the thin edge of the wedge –

Muslims want an apology for jokes
Islamic community leaders have written to Prime Minister John Key demanding Building Minister Maurice Williamson apologise for jokes he made about Muslims.
The Federation of Islamic Associations New Zealand sent the letter more than a week ago but has yet to receive a response. At the time Mr Key played down the jokes, saying Mr Williamson was known for his humour.

and
The federation had written to Mr Key on the advice of the Human Rights Commission

of course!
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September 25, 2010 10:34am
Inventory2

Are the Islamic community leaders going to apologise to the families of all those who have been blown hither and yon by terrorist bombers supposedly doing Allah’s work?

Thought not …
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September 25, 2010 10:36am
reid

Are the Christian community leaders going to apologise to the families of all those who have been blown hither and yon by Christian soldiers supposedly doing YHWH’s work?

Thought not…
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September 25, 2010 10:41am
Steve

The Human Rights Commision can stick it where the Global Warming Sun don’t shine. Oh dear, some PC jerk is using the HRC to push the wheelbarrow for Islam.
Sad day when these humourless fuckwits tell people what jokes can or can’t be said.
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September 25, 2010 10:43am
Viking2

They are the joke.
Tell them to piss off. Its our country and we tell jokes about Irishmen, pakeha, kiwi’s Maori, in fact anything we like.
Its called freedom of speech and no biggoted screwed in the head Muslim should be telling us what we can say. Don’t like that, well leave for some other place just as quick as he can.

But guess what.
Smiley will appease the bastards. Watch and see. Won’t have the guts to tell them to leave for another country.
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September 25, 2010 10:43am
bereal

Hey reid 10.41
that is a particulary pathetic post mate.
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September 25, 2010 10:53am
Yvette

“Oh dear, some PC jerk is using the HRC to push the wheelbarrow for Islam.

Perhaps, but the Human Rights Commission is one of the PC jerks, and in it already donkey-deep right up to his ass.
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September 25, 2010 11:02am
Banana Llama

Heres my apology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBP1m5CTh5Y&feature=related
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September 25, 2010 11:10am
reid

“Hey reid 10.41
that is a particulary pathetic post mate.”

Hey bereal, it’s true though, isn’t it.
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September 25, 2010 11:14am
Pauleastbay

Note to Government.

1. Abolish the Human Rights Commission.

Have a look at their website , it is puke inducing.

What if Christchurch people demanded an apology for all my donkey shagging, prostitute drowning, being generally sad bastards comments, I’d be tied up for weeks

We have turned into a humourless bunch of sad sacks. and Reid @ 10.41, worse than pathetic
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September 25, 2010 11:15am
Inventory2

Doubtless the advice to the “Islamic community leaders” was provided by the sickliest white liberal of all, Joris de Bres
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September 25, 2010 11:22am
F E Smith

“Are the Christian community leaders going to apologise to the families of all those who have been blown hither and yon by Christian soldiers supposedly doing YHWH’s work?”

Examples, please.
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September 25, 2010 11:28am
kowtow

One way or another they will get the apology.
This will then reinforce their sense of entitlement ,power and separateness.
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September 25, 2010 11:30am
wat dabney

All you need to know about state “Human Rights Commissions.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzVJTHIvqw8

Ezra Levant. Diamond geezer.
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September 25, 2010 11:37am
JiveKitty

I’m sure they’d be fine with it if it was jokes about Christians, atheists or any other group of people they don’t claim to represent, so what are they really complaining about? That somebody had the temerity to poke fun at them specifically. Given that, what are they really trying to do? I suggest they’re trying to shut down freedom of expression around Islam and Muslims.

“Islamic community leaders have written to Prime Minister John Key demanding Building Minister Maurice Williamson apologise for jokes he made about Muslims.”

Note the word “demanded” in there. That’s not making a request. They’re presupposing they have some right to demand this and that it will happen. They don’t. As well as this, they could have just let their displeasure or hurt be known and seen if they got some kind of apology, but as it is they’re seeking a forced apology (one likely to be insincere). What purpose does this serve other than to demean the person apologising?
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September 25, 2010 11:37am
Chuck Bird

This is just one reason why ACT will continue after the election.

Public Meetings on Foreshore and Seabed

John Boscawen is holding a series of Public Meetings during the next recess to raise public awareness of the new foreshore and seabed law.

The meeting details are:

Monday 27 September , 7:00 pm, Royal Akarana Yacht Club, 8 Tamaki Drive, Okahu Bay. (also with Hon Rodney Hide)

Tuesday 28 September , 2 pm, Howick Little Theatre, 1 Sir Lloyd Drive, Lloyd Elsmore Park, Pakuranga and 7.30 pm, Howick Recreation Centre, 563 Pakuranga Road, Pakuranga

Thursday 30 September, 7.30 pm, Angus Inn Hotel, 507 Railway Road, Hastings

Monday 4 October, 8 pm, Glenfield Community Centre, Cnr Glenfield Road and Bentley Avenue, Glenfield, North Shore City

And further meetings, venues to be advised:
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September 25, 2010 11:44am
Viking2

http://falfn.com/CrusaderRabbit/?p=1906

‘Peace Through Rape’
Posted on September 25, 2010 by KG

‘…..Two activists have exposed a disturbing phenomenon that they say is an open secret within the “peace camp”: female “peace” activists are routinely harassed and raped by the Arabs of Judea and Samaria with whom they have come to identify. They say the phenomenon has gotten worse lately and that many foreign women end up as wives of local Arabs against their will, but cannot escape their new homes.
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September 25, 2010 11:49am
Luc Hansen

F E Smith

Both George W Bush and Tony Blair admitted that in the end, God told them to invade Iraq, so they did. And remember that Bush used the term “Crusade”. It was not a Freudian slip.
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September 25, 2010 11:52am
MyNameIsJack

Of course VK2, everything at crusader rabbit is fact checked and 100% true, isn’t it?

About the only people dumber than the CR malarkey boyz are the tebaggerpartiers… oh, hang on, same tar, same brush.
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September 25, 2010 11:54am
tristanb

An atheist passes a priest and shouts “Jesus is a lie!”. He then passes a Jew and shouts “God is a lie!”. He then passes a Muslim Cleric and shouts, “Good day Sir!”.
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September 25, 2010 11:57am
F E Smith

Except that Tony Blair is not the only one of his cabinet to decide that the UK would go to war. So you cannot pin the UK’s decision in that respect on one man in a cabinet of mostly non-religious or atheist people.

Bush is an interesting one, as in going to war he might have had one motivation, but he had the support of a majority of the US citizenry, and, more importantly, a majority of the US Congress.

Even more importantly, reid’s comment was about “Christian soldiers supposedly doing YHWH’s work”, which your examples fail to show, unless you want to be pedantic about Bush being Commander in Chief.

So, again, examples please of “all those who have been blown hither and yon by Christian soldiers supposedly doing YHWH’s work”
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September 25, 2010 11:58am
F E Smith

Of course the atheist would say that, tristanb, because the muslim cleric is the only one likely to actually commit violence upon the atheist as a result of what the atheist said.
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September 25, 2010 12:00pm
MyNameIsJack

Jesusinthewitnessbox, FE, don’t you read hsitory?

Current day examples can be found in parts of India and Africa. Buggering of boys by catholic priests could also be seen as being “blown hither and you. In the very recent past, Ireland and the UK. Not to forget the Spanish in South America, and the vast number of European wars fought because of and over religion. Right from its foundation, Christianity has had blood on its hands.

And the risk of copping abuse of being anti-semitic, the jewish settlers causing much of the current ME strife believe they are doing YHWS’s work.
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September 25, 2010 12:04pm
reid

“Examples, please.”

All the wars waged throughout history by people from nations which trace their heritage back to Judeo-Christian roots. How come there’s no apologies not only to Muslims but also to Africans and Asians, for all of that?

What good for the goose, surely.

Otherwise, we’re nothing more than a bunch of hypocrites, aren’t we.
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September 25, 2010 12:06pm
MyNameIsJack

tristanb (155) Says:

September 25th, 2010 at 11:57 am
An atheist passes a priest and shouts “Jesus is a lie!”. He then passes a Jew and shouts “God is a lie!”. He then passes a Muslim Cleric and shouts, “Good day Sir!”.

Tristan, that may be so for AN Atheist, but not for us all.

I wear this tshirt quite proudly.

http://www.cafepress.com/jmoshop.110593258

Would you?
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September 25, 2010 12:06pm
MyNameIsJack

F E Smith (699) Says:

September 25th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
Of course the atheist would say that, tristanb, because the muslim cleric is the only one likely to actually commit violence upon the atheist as a result of what the atheist said.

FE, I understood you were a lawyer. Not a very good one if this is what you think passes for evidence.

I have been threatened with violence a number of times by christians, including one regular, deranged, poster here. Not once have I been threatened by a muslim.
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September 25, 2010 12:09pm
F E Smith

You are taking the mickey, MNIJ. I read a lot of history, but your examples are not military in nature, nor are they actual examples but, instead, are vague points that do not answer the question.

However, you say “In the very recent past, Ireland and the UK” when you know full well, or should know if you had ever spent time in Northern Ireland, that the sectarian violence in the North and the associated violence in the UK is almost exclusively political. The differences between Catholic and Protestant Northern Irishmen have their roots in their respective parts of the Christian religion, but are far more political than religious. Indeed, you can trace much of the current problem to the unionism stirred up by Lord Randolph Churchill, then carried on by Lord Craigavon (as he became). Religion was a convenient identifier, not a cause.

Your point about the ‘buggering of boys’ is stupid. Paedophilia is nothing to do with the question of motivation for military action.

Now, with regards to the Spanish in South America and the European Wars, can you please be more specific, especially giving the years of the conflict?

EDIT: and the question of Israeli actions doesn’t count because the point reid was making awas about Christianity.
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September 25, 2010 12:11pm
F E Smith

“All the wars waged throughout history by people from nations which trace their heritage back to Judeo-Christian roots.’

Oh please, get real. Give us some real examples.
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September 25, 2010 12:13pm
Luc Hansen

Arabs of Judea and Samaria

One hardly needs to follow the links to find the propagandist and Islamophobic source of this crap – the above quote says it all. It’s the West Bank, and it’s in Palestinian territory (officially, the Occupied Palestinian Territories).

F E

Who are you calling a pedant? Tony Blair and George Bush accept responsibility for the decisions to go to war, and don’t hide between the fig leaves of collective responsibility. They are the ones who said how their religion guided them.

You want Christian soldiers? What religion do you think the overwhelming majority of American soldiers are? Muslim?

Anyway, the correct perspective to view this particular issue from is that of the invaded – and polls and reports indicate that most Muslims see the wars as an attack on Islam by the Christian West. What you think in your legalistic brain is of little consequence to them.
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September 25, 2010 12:14pm
F E Smith

“FE, I understood you were a lawyer. Not a very good one if this is what you think passes for evidence.”

Oh, I am a good lawyer, MNIJ. What you don’t seem to understand is the difference between opinion and evidence.

Fortunately, I do.
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September 25, 2010 12:15pm
Pauleastbay

Below posted by MNIJ on another thread here at KiwiBlog earlier today:

………..The attacks were not an act of war, they were the act of criminals. The appropriate response was not one of war, but of criminal investigation and prosecution………………………………..

Well if thats the case MNIJ, the muslims should be apologising to us all, as most of the countries of the world were represented in the death toll on September 11 2001.

The muslim community should be pissing in all our pockets, not having broken arses like yourself and others with your undergraduate sad arguments attempting to justify atrocity .

MNIJ, you are happy to collectively label all Catholic priests boy buggerers but as soon as anyone collectivtises (sic) muslims you throw a rod
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September 25, 2010 12:22pm
F E Smith

“What religion do you think the overwhelming majority of American soldiers are? Muslim?”

No, you are making the same mistake that many Muslims make. Just because a person comes from a country that has a supposedly Christian past does not make them a Christian. Muslims don’t understand this because their religion is also a political system and they assume that Christianity is the same. That is like blaming the Japanese takeover of Korea on the Shinto religion, when it was nothing to do with that. Muslims believe, as you seem to, that there is such a thing as the ‘Christian West’, when in fact almost all of those countries are proudly secular, not Christian. Indeed, I have read some sermons by Muslim clerics that use the words ‘the Christian Secular West’, not realising that such a description is contradictory.

So, when you call particular soldiers Christian, what you are really meaning is that that solider comes from a country that has a past where Christianity was the major religion. Of course, I suspect that most Christians would say that you were wrong in doing so, because their religion is one that is individually adopted, rather than one that a person has because of the country they live in. Unlike a large majority of residents of Islamic countries.

And Bush and Blair were leaders, yes, but collective responsibility has to take effect. Moreover, are you seriously suggesting that the decisions to go to war were solely religious and in no way political?
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September 25, 2010 12:24pm
F E Smith

Oh, and Luc, the US has Muslim soldiers. Those soldiers have fought in Iraq and have also supported the war by their actions when stationed in the US. Were they also doing their bit in the name of the Christian God?
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September 25, 2010 12:26pm
reid

“Give us some real examples.”

Those are real examples, FE. The point is, this is what Muslims “feel” in exactly the same way that those who demand the entire Muslim race apologise, also “feel.”

Both positions are quite idiotic from a rational perspective and luckily a minority of people refuse to adopt either polarity for it is in the neutral ground between the two that the truth about this lies.

Fact is, neither side needs to apologise, except for those who directly participate in it. This approximates in my guess about 20 million of the 1,000 million+ population of total Muslims. All of those, from people who kill to people who facilitate, organise and donate, all of them, need to apologise and immediately cease and desist. But the 980+ million of them who DON’T PARTICIPATE IN ANY WAY need to apologise about as much as all Christians need to apologise for things like the Crusades. We don’t and they don’t.

Some however curiously, obdurately and obtusely fail to see this very elementary fact of geopolitical life as we know it, instead persisting in their mental peculiar fantasy that EVERY SINGLE MUSLIM IS A TERRORIST which is so fucked in the head one hardly knows where to begin, except to recommend they check themselves in somewhere before they hurt themselves.

“What you don’t seem to understand is the difference between opinion and evidence.”

Hopefully FE you will agree that my analysis is a good example of the difference between opinion and evidence.

Case closed, I believe.
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September 25, 2010 12:29pm
F E Smith

Luc: I am struggling to find exactly when Tony Blair said the words that “God told him to invade Iraq” or of the same meaning. Can you help me on that point, please?

EDIT: I can find where he says he prayed first, but can’t find an actual command from a higher power mentioned.
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September 25, 2010 12:31pm
Kris K

Engineering Standards are dropping in NZ – Government and IPENZ complicit in this cover-up

Don’t know if you chaps heard the interview earlier in the week (Weds 22-09-10) on Nine to Noon, Radio NZ, about the collapse of Stadium Southland. It highlighted the drop-off in engineering standards in NZ in recent years, and structural engineer John Scarry highlighted the link between reducing engineering standards and reducing standards in general within society. And that both the government and IPENZ are complicit in what is essentially a cover-up of this fact.

Stadium engineering
Joining us are John Scarry a structural engineer, who wrote a 2002 report on faulty design and construction and Dr Andrew Cleland, Chief Executive of the Institution of Professional Engineers NZ. (duration: 12′18″)

http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/ntn/ntn-20100922-0926-Stadium_engineering-048.mp3

Also a very interesting interview on Saturday with Kim Hill, Radio NZ between Kim Hill and John Scarry (back on 26-07-08) on this same general topic:

John Scarry
Auckland structural engineer, who is concerned about design and construction practices and their effects on building safety. (duration: 29′11″)

http://podcast.radionz.co.nz/sat/sat-20080726-0830-John_Scarry-048.mp3

Both interviews are well worth a listen and highlight that the rot is setting in in yet another area of our society.
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September 25, 2010 12:31pm
Inventory2

Time for a change of subject; wouldn’t it be nice if NZ judges started chucking a few sentences like this one around!!

http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2010/09/now-thats-what-we-call-sentencing.html
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September 25, 2010 12:34pm
F E Smith

No they are not, reid. Your comment was, and I quote “Are the Christian community leaders going to apologise to the families of all those who have been blown hither and yon by Christian soldiers supposedly doing YHWH’s work?”

That was nothing to do with how Muslims feel. I asked you for examples and you have yet to provide anything other than vagaries. So, please, give me examples where people have been blown hither and yon by Christian soldiers etc etc.

Let me help- I will happily accept the Crusades meet the criteria. But I want more please. Be specific, now.

EDIT: And you suggest that 20 million muslims are engaged in this terrorism:? how many christians?
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September 25, 2010 12:34pm
F E Smith

I2: No, it wouldn’t. We can’t afford it, for a start.
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September 25, 2010 12:35pm
Luc Hansen

So predictably pedant, F E.

I said: the overwhelming majority. And like I said as well, look at from the other point of view. It’s not what we think we are doing it for; it’s what they think.

And American Muslims do it for their country. To the best of my knowledge only one Muslim is claiming CO status, and he is not supported by his peers. They are loyal Americans.

Please don’t invent mistakes for me. You are just distorting facts and arguments to suit your worldview, which is Eurocentric.

are you seriously suggesting that the decisions to go to war were solely religious and in no way political.

I’m just informing you of what Bush and Blair have said. They also promoted political imperatives. I guess we have to make up our own minds on that one.
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September 25, 2010 12:35pm
Luc Hansen

Time for some fresh air now – it’s getting pretty rancid in here!
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September 25, 2010 12:36pm
Inventory2

@ FE Smith – you’re probably right; but the sight of the face of first guy to get handed a sentence like that would be a great deterrent, don’t you think?
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September 25, 2010 12:37pm
kowtow

The “islamopologists” and anti western leftists constantly focus on European or American imperialism.India is proud of its trains and democracy.

Islam began in Arabia and spread throughout the world,and it wasn’t spread by friendly door knocking evanglical types.Until the middle ages Egypt was majority Christian and Copt till an influx of Arabs changed that society.

How many Buddhists are left in Afghanistan,you know the people who carved the blown up statues?
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September 25, 2010 12:39pm
F E Smith

The air is always rancid when you are around, Luc.

However, “And American Muslims do it for their country…they are loyal Americans” is part of the point that reid and you ignore in your comments.

Whatever the religious view of American soldiers, and I doubt that the overwhelming majority are actually Christian, they are all doing it because they are loyal Americans. The war in Iraq is not religious, it is political. Indeed, Blair takes the view that he was acting as a liberator of Muslims from an oppressive tyrant. It is just that the Muslim world does not see it that way, preferring to live under a tyrant so long as he is Muslim rather than have freedom brought to them by a non-Muslim.
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September 25, 2010 12:42pm
F E Smith

I2: No argument from me there!
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September 25, 2010 12:43pm
Viking2

MyNameIsJack (1,566) Says:
Not once have I been threatened by a muslim.

Have you tried to criticize them like you do everyone else. In their own land preferably. Go give it a try. Be quite revealing for you.
Almost certain to rid Kiwiblog of one believer. You can email us from their prison after you’ve had 50 lashes etc.
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September 25, 2010 12:45pm
tristanb

Of course the atheist would say that, tristanb, because the muslim cleric is the only one likely to actually commit violence upon the atheist as a result of what the atheist said.

Yes, thank you for explaining it to us. It was actually a joke, sort of in response to the HRC complaints about Maurice Williamson. I apologise if that wasn’t evident enough in my post, and that you seem to have thought I was curious about some real life occurrence I witnessed.

I wear this tshirt quite proudly. Would you?

Nah, cause I’m not a hater. Changes need to be made in government policy, not by attacking individuals who are already in the country. You don’t want to end up like these cocks http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4165251/Dickheads-a-disgrace-to-Christchurch

I support your right to wear the t-shirt, but it ain’t gonna do much good, and depending on what your career ambitions are when you’re older, you might want to get rid of any Facebook pics or anything with you wearing it.
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September 25, 2010 12:47pm
F E Smith

No, tristanb, I realised it was a joke. But I was making a point to others on this thread with my response.
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September 25, 2010 12:51pm
bereal

When people engage with the likes of reid and MNIJ they are able to divert and red herring away from the point with ease.
Yvette made the point at 10.34.
These two have managed to change the issue.
The arguments they present are as relevant as if they had said, “yeah but your car has bald tyres.”
You gotta learn to ignore these guys and they will go away.
Wise up.
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September 25, 2010 12:51pm
Pete George

An old joke went something like:

What do you call a Mongrel Mob member with a machine gun?
Sir!

There is far more chance of me being physically harmed by a Christian or an atheist than there is by a Muslim.

But I wouldn’t abuse anyone while walking past them. I do dig at some groups of people sometimes, including on here, but that’s usually part of an exchange and they have right of reply (or I was exercising my right of response). I’ve never knowingly debated with a Muslim so don’t know how it could go.
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September 25, 2010 12:52pm
Kris K

MyNameIsLegion (for we are many) 12:04 pm,

And the risk of copping abuse of being anti-semitic, the jewish settlers causing much of the current ME strife believe they are doing YHWS’s work.

Actually, Legion, I think you’ll find that most Israelis are in fact atheists/agnostics, and have very little to do with the God who originally led them to the Promised Land. Much in the same way, as FES highlighted, that the US (and the rest of the West) is a secular state with only a historical link to Christianity. And even those soldiers who may be Christians/Jewish may not believe they are necessarily doing God’s work when they represent their country, etc.
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September 25, 2010 12:54pm
reid

No they are not, reid. Your comment was, and I quote “Are the Christian community leaders going to apologise to the families of all those who have been blown hither and yon by Christian soldiers supposedly doing YHWH’s work?”

Yes and it was a mirror of someone else’s comment and that’s why it was worded thusly. The point of that comment was that Muslims no more need apologise than Christians do.

Those who do such acts today need to both apologise and stop doing them, but not everyone does them, so what do those who don’t do them, have to apologise for?

I’m sorry that I keep refusing to offer you anything more than vague examples of my comment, and had it been my own original statement and not a parody of another’s, I would do so. But since that wasn’t my basic point, I don’t feel bound to. Sorry about that.
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September 25, 2010 12:55pm
F E Smith

bereal, with your 18 posts on this site you may not have much understanding of how this works. I take a strong view that if we let the lefties dominate the topics then it may well appear that either we agree with them or, alternatively, that we do not have the ability or the evidence to disagree with them. That is a wrong position to take. We must meet those who are wrong head on, otherwise we will lose. Because no matter what, these guys won’t go away. And they take silence as a victory.

So, bereal, wise up yourself.
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September 25, 2010 12:56pm
flipper

Kris K ………
Dont disagree with what you say…but can you seriously tell me that a majority of NZrs listen to RNZ’s esoteric crap ?

Without useless academics (who would not know S from C) and left wing pollies, RNZ would not be able to fill their time.

Check out http://www.biased-bbc.blogspot.com/
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September 25, 2010 12:59pm
F E Smith

Pete: Go to Saudi and tell them that Allah is a lie. Then see what happens.

reid: but your overall point was wrong. Kris K got it in one in his most recent comment at 12.54pm. Your problem is that you will struggle to find any wars being waged in the name of YHWH today, unlike those which are openly being waged in the name of Allah. All of your examples, and those of MNIJ, are 400 years old and counting. The Islamic ones are very, very fresh.
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September 25, 2010 1:00pm
MyNameIsJack

Lest my silence be thought a voctory for the ratbag raving right wing war mongers, I am off to take pix of Chch damage and then to sit with a bunch of great mates and watch the AFL grand final – see you at Westminster Park, 4:30, don’t forget to bring your invite.
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September 25, 2010 1:02pm
Pete George

We must meet those who are wrong head on

You mean those who you think are wrong? Or right=right, left=wrong?

There is high likelihood that those with more centrish and leftish views believe they have some claim to being correct, or at least argue that they are more correct, as those that call themselves righties.

It is also the caase that those that might express some leftish sort of ideas also have some righter beliefs as well. It is not a simple good v evil battle (or crusade).

FES, I don’t have any inclination to go to Saudi let alone say something provocative there. I also don’t have any inclination to stand outside a Mongrel Mob house giving them the fingers.
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September 25, 2010 1:04pm
MyNameIsJack

No KK got it WRONG in his 12:54. Neither he nor you seem to be able to comprehend a simple sentence “the jewish settlers causing much of the current ME strife believe they are doing YHWS’s work.” which somehow KK conflates in to the entire population of Israel, not all of whom are even Jewish.

Fuck, you guys are drop kicks.
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September 25, 2010 1:06pm
F E Smith

“You mean those who you think are wrong? Or right=right, left=wrong?”

Both.
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September 25, 2010 1:06pm
Inventory2

Reid said

Yes and it was a mirror of someone else’s comment and that’s why it was worded thusly. The point of that comment was that Muslims no more need apologise than Christians do.

Indeed Reid; it was a mirror of my post, which I stand by. Sure, Christians are not lily-white, but I’m not aware of many who listen to the rantings of an extremist cleric, then rush off, strap explosives to their bodies, and blow themselves any anyone in the vicinity to kingdom come whilst shouting “Allah akbar!”.
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September 25, 2010 1:07pm
Pete George

FES: Do you exhaust all your nuances in court work?
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September 25, 2010 1:08pm
F E Smith

“FES: Do you exhaust all your nuances in court work?”

Eh?

EDIT:”It is also the caase that those that might express some leftish sort of ideas also have some righter beliefs as well. It is not a simple good v evil battle (or crusade).

FES, I don’t have any inclination to go to Saudi let alone say something provocative there. I also don’t have any inclination to stand outside a Mongrel Mob house giving them the fingers.”

That has to be an edit, Pete. I am certain it wasn’t there when I replied.

Further edit: and, like MNIJ except in every possible way, I am also out of here. Have a good day, all.
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September 25, 2010 1:10pm
Kris K

reid 12:29 pm,

Fact is, neither side needs to apologise, except for those who directly participate in it. This approximates in my guess about 20 million of the 1,000 million+ population of total Muslims.

Assuming your figures are correct, Reid; that only 2% of Muslims are raving fundamentalist terrorists, how far should we allow that percentage to climb before we require Islam as a whole to take responsibility for those so called extremists? those ‘extremists’ who are only doing EXACTLY WHAT THE KORAN INSTRUCTS THEM to? 5%? 10%? 50%? 99%?

Please don’t forget that Islamic terrorists are doing nothing more than obeying their scriptures (Koran, Hadith, etc). And unless Muslims renounce said scriptures, and the actions of their prophet, they will never genuinely renounce the actions of those we like to label as “Radical Muslims”. The Koran makes no such distinction between “Radical” and “Moderate” Muslims. And even your so called Moderate Muslim will never deny that the aim of Islam is to bring the entire globe into submission to Islam under Sharia Law. Next time you meet one ask him.
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September 25, 2010 1:10pm
Pete George

Kris, how many Catholic priests and people like Eddie Long need to be caught before you take responsibility for Christian sex abuse?
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September 25, 2010 1:15pm
reid

“reid: but your overall point was wrong…All of your examples, and those of MNIJ, are 400 years old and counting. The Islamic ones are very, very fresh.”

No, it wasn’t wrong, because whether it’s happening today wasn’t my point. The point was not whether anyone at all needs to apologise today, the point was that not every single Muslim needs to apologise.

Totally different arenas.

“The Koran makes no such distinction between “Radical” and “Moderate” Muslims.”

crikey Kris we’ve been through this how many times? According to you, therefore, every single Muslim obeys every single word in the Koran to the point where they are right here right now prepared to leave their families, their jobs, their homes, their lives, to take up arms for Allah.

As I’ve said before, that belief is entailed by your argument, you don’t have a choice, and it’s palpably wrong, based on the world as I know it. Period.
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September 25, 2010 1:15pm
bereal

F E Smith, you still don’t get it mate.
You will never win arguing with them. However cogent your points are they get their kicks from winding you up.
If you ever do appear to be prevailing they will say , “Yeah but I’m off to watch the league.”
Did you have a Flat Earth Soc when you were at high school ?
Could you win an argument with them ?
I don’t mean any offence to you when I say, “Wise up.”
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September 25, 2010 1:15pm
Viking2

Just to show that we can tell jokes about anyone here’s something to make you smile.

Paddy, was walking along the street during his once-in-a-lifetime visit
to New York when he rounds a corner and there’s a high rise building on
fire.
Paddy, ever the kind-hearted and resourceful Irishman, runs up to the
building to see if he can help, and notices people trapped five stories
up.

Paddy yells to the people: ‘I’m Patrick Sean Michael Fitzpatrick, the
Irish Rugby Union fullback! If you jump, I’ll catch you, I’ve only had 6
pints to drink all today!”

One lady, in desperation, jumps and sure enough Paddy catches her. Then a
man sees that Paddy catches the woman and he jumps. Sure enough, Paddy
catches him also.

Then a black man jumps out and crashes to the sidewalk. Paddy didn’t
even attempt to catch him.

Paddy looks up and yells:

“Don’t be throwin’ out the burnt ones!”
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September 25, 2010 1:16pm
Pete George

bereal, why do you come here if not to try and argue points with people with different views? Imploring people not to debate seems to be defeating the purpose of the blog, and I’d say futile. Maybe you would find a mutual backslapping blog like Crusader Rabbit more to you liking, or you could start up a RightiesOnlyClub website.
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September 25, 2010 1:26pm
Kris K

flipper 12:59 pm,

Kris K ………
Dont disagree with what you say…but can you seriously tell me that a majority of NZrs listen to RNZ’s esoteric crap ?

Without useless academics (who would not know S from C) and left wing pollies, RNZ would not be able to fill their time.

And I accept your evaluation of RNZ on the whole – but there are the odd gems.
And engineer John Scarry is one of the good guys who identifies the hypocrisy of both government and, in this case, IPENZ.
Have you listened to the two interviews I linked to? Well worth it.
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September 25, 2010 1:30pm
Kris K

Pete G[e]orge 1:04 pm,

You mean those who you think are wrong? Or right=right, left=wrong?

There is high likelihood that those with more centrish and leftish views believe they have some claim to being correct, or at least argue that they are more correct, as those that call themselves righties.

And now a word from our ‘balanced’ and pragmatic Mr George.
Those splinters in your arse must require several injections of antibiotics per day by now, Pete.
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September 25, 2010 1:35pm
Pete George

Trying to divert away from the question Kris? When will you accept responsibility for Christian sex abuse?
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September 25, 2010 1:39pm
reid

“Christians are not lily-white, but I’m not aware of many who listen to the rantings of an extremist cleric, then rush off, strap explosives to their bodies, and blow themselves any anyone in the vicinity to kingdom come whilst shouting “Allah akbar!”.”

Yes it’s rather depressing for everyone, isn’t it.

I’m afraid I’m not one who believes this problem is insoluble. Some of you seem to imagine it is, for you never offer solutions, just point to how terrible and insoluble it all is.

To me this is a rather stupid position, since we have no choice. Unless those of you of this ilk, are recommending we slaughter, eliminate, liquidate, whatever you want to call it, every single Muslim in the whole wide world. I’m not sure if that’s what you’re recommending, but that seems to me the logical outcome of your perspective as outlined by your continual offerings.

So given that we have no choice, the sensible thing to do is to drop the emotion and understand the nature of the issue. Montgomery had a picture of Rommel on his wall in the desert, Lord Denning used to prepare the prosecution’s case before he prepared his defence, it’s universal wisdom, that in order to dissipate any threat whatsoever, you need to understand where it’s really coming from, why it’s there, and what drives it.

So given this, in my view, the simple cold hard fact is for some reason, Muslims today are really angry. Explaining in various ways how unreasonable all of this is, is simply pointless. Dropping the moral outrage, for that is all it is, and grappling with the question of why this is, across the various countries, in Asia as well as in the ME, across Africa, is a positive exercise.

And when you look at it like that, only then are you equipped to logically and truthfully examine just precisely why it is that Muslims are angry.

Kris points continually to the fact that Islam resembles Communism in its drive to take over the world, but so what if it says that? Does anyone really think now, with historical insight, that Communism’s actions was REALLY driven by that particular Marxist tenet? Really? I mean, c’mon. Duh. So why should this be any different. BTW, newsflash. Just because political leaders claim to be doing something in the name of something or someone, it doesn’t make it true, dummy.

The fact is, every single anti-Muslim argument people put forward, misses the fundamental point.
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September 25, 2010 1:47pm
Chthoniid

I don’t understand why some here assume that atheists are somehow more tolerant of Islam than they are of the other Abrahamic religions.

Boobquake this year was initiated by an atheist University graduate in response to Iranian theological lunacy.

And rather than being on Kiwiblog yesterday afternoon, I spent a couple of hours catching up with a Yemeni woman I hadn’t seen for a couple of weeks. Largely because I’d assisted her escape the threat of an honour killing & she’s been changing her identity in an entire new location.
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September 25, 2010 1:53pm
Chthoniid

@reid

good argument.

Let me add that there is a very good reason why counter-terrorist agencies etc distinguish radical Muslim groups from the majority of other Muslims. Islam is not a culturally or religiously homogeneous group. Treating them as such goes no way to confronting the real threat of militant Islam.
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September 25, 2010 1:57pm
Kris K

Pete G[e]orge 1:39 pm,

Trying to divert away from the question Kris? When will you accept responsibility for Christian sex abuse?

When have I ever run from or excused sexual abuse within Christendom, Pete?
I’m the first to condemn the likes of Capill, and I continue to hold the cult of Roman Catholicism responsible for the actions of her priests, cardinals, and popes in this regard. And I have done so numerous times here on Kiwiblog. So don’t bring your false allegations against me, Mr George.
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September 25, 2010 1:59pm
kowtow

Reid says Muslims are angry and we must see that from his point of view.
He advances that as some sort of wisdom with anecdotes of Rommel.Montgomery had more than a photo,he had the German plans via Ultra or whatever the code breaker was FFS.
Anyway Reid enjoins us to see the Muslim world thru his eyes. Well ,duh, most people here are able to make up their own minds about their “anger”thank you very much.
A lot of Christians are angry too but of course that doesn’t count.
A lot of aetheists are angry, Buddhists Confucians Taoists Sikhs Hindus animists pagans etc But lets all see the world from the Muslim perspective.
Some cartoonists and book publishers are angry too. blah blah blah
Maybe it should bae a crime to make people angry.
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September 25, 2010 2:00pm
nickb

The HRC is one of the most useless fucking bodies in the NZ quango-sphere, and that is saying something.

Instead of piping up over issues which involve real breaches of human rights, such as unsafe convictions, delays in our justice system, institutionalised racism (such as seats based on race), and the dramatic assaults on out civil liberties under the Clark government (EFA) and possible ones arising under the Key government (search & surveillance Bill) they are instead an insipid grouping of the most limp wristed softcocks imaginable.

I mean, seriously. An organisation set up to protect our “human rights”, look at the headings on its website:

Human Rights Environment
EEO
The Treaty
Disabled People

It would be funny if our tax money wasnt funding it.
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September 25, 2010 2:03pm
Jack5

Reid posted at 12.96:

…What good for the goose, surely…

It ill behoves a lefty Muslim supporter like Reid to talk about sexual equality (the goose and gander metaphor). Or perhaps Reid is taking a twist on it: what is good for the gander is what the poor goose gets, as long as it’s an enslaved female mate.

Girls forced out of education, raped women punished for allegedly being reponsible, women accused of adultery stoned to death, women forced to cover their faces, girls hounded out of education as in Taleban Afghanistan, female circumcision, girls forced to marry adults selected by the parents and quite often cousins…. The list goes on of how Islam oppresses the half of humanity that is female.

Is this what Reid means when he talks of what is good for the goose?

Another Leftist, Lucy Hansen, weighs in backing Reid. As typical, Lucy makes ad hominem attacks on F.E. Smith:

12.14:

…what you think in your legalistic brain is of little consequence to them…

12.35:

…So predictably pedant, F E.

Then My Name is Jack babbles:

..Not once have I been threatened by a muslim…

MNIJ, you have experienced that rare admirable streak in Islam, being kind to, or at very least ignoring, the intellectually retarded.

The non-leftist followers of the thread can take comfort from the fact that Muslim countries such as Iran and Saudi-Arabia have been notoriously intolerant of Leftists. Reid and “My Name Is Jack” and Lucy Hansen in turn can take comfort from the fact that if Muslims take over NZ, the current practice is for the sentenced to be sedated before they are dragged out to kneel before the sword. Red and dead!

These leftist ranters sadly diverted this thread from Yvette’s excellent criticism of the far-left human rights commission. Why hasn’t National the gumption to clean out this Marxist nest?
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September 25, 2010 2:07pm
reid

Exactly, Chthoniid.

Your name is hard to abbreviate, did you know that?

The only way to deal with this in my view is to reach out over radical Islam’s heads directly to their passive supporters and win them over to our side. You can’t force them over this is a hearts and minds, it has to be, there is no other way.

Only when we do that on a concerted ongoing basis across every continent will we see a difference.

The current approach is toward threat identification and containment and that has to shift gear and change into dissipation. Of course it’s a mammoth task and unfortunately requires something like a Marshall Plan scale and who’s going to fund that?

“Is this what Reid means when he talks of what is good for the goose?”

So what’s your point Jack? I apologise for being thick but I just couldn’t see one.

“Well ,duh, most people here are able to make up their own minds about their “anger”thank you very much.”

Are they? Are they really, kowtow?

I see.
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September 25, 2010 2:09pm
Jack5

The point Reid, is that you used a metaphor about gender equality to defend Islam, a faith which is notorious for its oppression of the female sex.
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September 25, 2010 2:13pm
Kris K

reid 1:47 pm,

Kris points continually to the fact that Islam resembles Communism in its drive to take over the world, but so what if it says that? Does anyone really think now, with historical insight, that Communism’s actions was REALLY driven by that particular Marxist tenet? Really? I mean, c’mon. Duh. So why should this be any different. BTW, newsflash. Just because political leaders claim to be doing something in the name of something or someone, it doesn’t make it true, dummy.

The fact is, every single anti-Muslim argument people put forward, misses the fundamental point.

I just know you’re not that naive, Reid.
Islam is half way through taking over the globe. Much of Africa, Asia, what was the USSR, etc., have already succumbed to Islam. And of course Europe and the UK are well on the way. They don’t call them “Eurabia” and “Londonistan” for nothing.

And what doesn’t succumb through Islamic immigration will succumb through Islamic terrorism; as did most of Africa, and what was once the Christian Middle East.

If anyone is missing the “fundamental point”, Reid, it is you and your ilk.
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September 25, 2010 2:14pm
Jack5

Chthoniid – how do you reconcile your tolerance for Islam with its rejection of the theory of evolution?
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September 25, 2010 2:15pm
reid

“If anyone is missing the “fundamental point”, Reid, it is you and your ilk.”

Like I said Kris, your perspective is merely pointing out the bleeding obvious without offering any solution. It’s simply saying, this is [in my view] the reality – look at it.

My response is, so what? So what if you’re right? So what? What happens from there, Kris? What else are you saying?

I mean one things for fucking certain, isn’t it. The situation is deteriorating. That’s right, isn’t it. So what’s your analysis as to why?
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September 25, 2010 2:21pm
reid

“The point Reid, is that you used a metaphor about gender equality to defend Islam, a faith which is notorious for its oppression of the female sex.”

Crikey, did I, Jack?

I didn’t mean to.

My apologies.

Where was that, BTW?
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September 25, 2010 2:26pm
kowtow

Reid now calls for a Marshall Plan so the Muslim world stops being angry with us!

And he claims to be the clever one with the answers.!

Marshall,let’s see,American general serving under Truman,whose administration rebuilt war ravaged Europe and stemmed the tide of Soviet expansionism. Wow ,those capitalist Yanks aren’t that bad after all.
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September 25, 2010 2:27pm
reid

So what’s your plan, kowtow.

Continue with our current operations and hope it doesn’t result in a war?

That’s a good plan, although possibly a little counter-productive, in the longer term, for everyone involved.
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September 25, 2010 2:31pm
Kris K

reid 2:21 pm,

Like I said Kris, your perspective is merely pointing out the bleeding obvious without offering any solution. It’s simply saying, this is [in my view] the reality – look at it.

My response is, so what? So what if you’re right? So what? What happens from there, Kris? What else are you saying?

Well I’m glad you at least recognise the “bleeding obvious”, Reid – I was beginning to have my doubts.
Those people who maintain a “So what?” attitude will, no doubt, be more than happy to give up their freedoms, learn Arabic, memorise the Koran, and submit to Sharia.

Here’s a phrase you should get used to chanting, Reid – “Allahu Akbar” – or does it already roll off the tongue with ease?
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September 25, 2010 2:31pm
kowtow

Talking of womens rights and a non homogenous Islam,have a read of this .The practise is so widespread there is a homogeneity to it. The author mentions Christians involved with no substantiation.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-the-crimewave-that-shames-the-world-2072201.html

Could I invite readers to go over to the jihad watch website. Footage of a stoning by the Taliban. Truly horrific.
These actions are religiously sanctioned.
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September 25, 2010 2:35pm
JiveKitty

“I don’t understand why some here assume that atheists are somehow more tolerant of Islam than they are of the other Abrahamic religions.

Boobquake this year was initiated by an atheist University graduate in response to Iranian theological lunacy.

And rather than being on Kiwiblog yesterday afternoon, I spent a couple of hours catching up with a Yemeni woman I hadn’t seen for a couple of weeks. Largely because I’d assisted her escape the threat of an honour killing & she’s been changing her identity in an entire new location.”

Thank you, Chthoniid, for pointing this out. I think in part this perception may come about because of the matter of proximity. I and many other atheists/agnostics are no more tolerant of Islam than Christianity, yet because of the country we live in – where Christianity is the dominant religion – issues around Christianity possibly come up more often than issues around Islam, both because of proximity and potential impact on the community we exist within. Furthermore, where we may criticise Islam, it is probably less likely to be noticed by those who hold the perception of atheists as more tolerant of Islam than Christianity, given that many of those who have this perception seem more likely to be Christians and thus are more likely to notice when the group they belong to is brought up for criticism.

Myers is fiercely critical of Islam, for example, and to my knowledge this is much the same for other prominent atheist critics. I would guess, however, that a Christian a person is much more likely to hear about Myers or Dawkins criticising Christianity than Islam. This doesn’t mean that such criticism doesn’t occur.
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September 25, 2010 2:38pm
Jack5

Reid in response to your 2.26 question to me…

Reid, you posted at 12.06, this:

..What good for the goose, surely.

If that wasn’t a truncated reference to the metaphor, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander, WTF is it?
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September 25, 2010 2:42pm
reid

“Reid now calls for a Marshall Plan so the Muslim world stops being angry with us!”

Seriously though kowtow, some people do actually believe that the Muslim world must sort this out themselves. This fails utterly to recognise the inarguable reality that the west’s actions exacerbate the dynamic.

To seriously imagine that Muslims have nothing whatsoever to be aggrieved about is to fail Humanity 101 and World History 101 both with Z-minus-triple-dunce grades. I mean, it’s axiomatic, isn’t it, that you can’t think straight if all you ever think about is how evil, mad and dangerous these people are.

I think actually in terms of putting oneself inside an average Muslim’s head it helps to understand what it is to be religious. A lot of people who don’t know that, appear to make the mistake of thinking anything the least bit religious is at the end of the day, always about fanaticism. Those of us who have had genuine faith experience know it’s nothing of the sort, we know it, personally, as an experience and not as an intellectual concept. And all of that really helps if you wanted to imagine oneself in say Cairo or Istanbul.

Radical Islam is fanatical. But Islam has many stripes and that’s only one. Only the truly massively thick idiot conflates Radical Islam with general Islam.
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September 25, 2010 2:45pm
Kris K

reid 2:31 pm,

So what’s your plan …

Continue with our current operations and hope it doesn’t result in a war?

In case you hadn’t noticed, Reid, we’re already at war with Islam.
And Islam’s two pronged attack comes in the form of mass immigration into the West, and Islamic terrorism against the West. The appeasers amongst us are nothing more than facilitators and enablers of the Islamic takeover. Islam sees the West’s appeasement as a sign of our weakness; that we’re ripe for the plucking.

A couple of quotes, following, back this up:

“When people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature they will like the strong horse.”
Osama bin Laden
Kandahar, November 2001

“If we know anything, it is that weakness is provacative.”
Donald Rumsfeld
Washington, October 1998

[The dates of these quotes are interesting – especially Rumsfeld’s]
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September 25, 2010 2:45pm
reid

“If that wasn’t a truncated reference to the metaphor, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander, WTF is it?”

Yes but Jack where’s the connection between that metaphor and your concluding that my use of it means that I was using:

“gender equality to defend Islam, a faith which is notorious for its oppression of the female sex.”

??
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September 25, 2010 2:47pm
Jack5

Re JiveKitty’s 2.38 on atheists criticising Muslims as much as they do Christians…

Strange that the attacks on those who question the Theory of Evolution overwhelmingly focus on fundamentalist Christians and generally ignore Muslims, though isn’t it. Especially now that the Muslims are proselytising in NZ prisons and in NZ generally. You can see on Saturday nights on the NZ state-subsidised local TV station Muslim propaganda films. These include attacks on the Theory of Evolution.
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September 25, 2010 2:47pm
Jack5

Reid:

Re your 2.47 post:

You used a metaphor that highlights equality between males and females in your defence of Islam. That’s the bloody irony.
You made the connection yourself.
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September 25, 2010 2:49pm
HarryGlicken

This is one for mnij, mnij SCROLL DOWN ,somethingMNIJ dosnt do,A LIFE CHOISE
Subject: King Arthur and the Witch

Young King Arthur was ambushed and imprisoned by the monarch of a neighbouring kingdom. The monarch could have killed him but was moved by Arthur’s youth and ideals. So, the monarch offered him his freedom, as long as he could answer a very difficult question. Arthur would have a year to figure out the answer and, if after a year, he still had no answer, he would be put to death.

The question?…What do women really want? Such a question would perplex even the most knowledgeable man, and to young Arthur, it seemed an impossible query. But, since it was better than death, he accepted the monarch’s proposition to have an answer by year’s end.

He returned to his kingdom and began to poll everyone: the princess, the priests, the wise men and even the court jester. He spoke with everyone, but no one could give him a satisfactory answer.

Many people advised him to consult the old witch, for only she would have the answer.

But the price would be high; as the witch was famous throughout the kingdom for the exorbitant prices she charged.

The last day of the year arrived and Arthur had no choice but to talk to the witch. She agreed to answer the question, but he would have to agree to her price first.

The old witch wanted to marry Sir Lancelot, the most noble of the Knights of the Round Table and Arthur’s closest friend!

Young Arthur was horrified. She was hunchbacked and hideous, had only one tooth, smelled like sewage, made obscene noises, etc. He had never encountered such a repugnant creature in all his life.

He refused to force his friend to marry her and endure such a terrible burden; but Lancelot, learning of the proposal, spoke with Arthur

He said nothing was too big of a sacrifice compared to Arthur’s life and the preservation of the Round Table.

Hence, a wedding was proclaimed and the witch answered Arthur’s question thus:

What a woman really wants, she answered….is to be in charge of her own life.

Everyone in the kingdom instantly knew that the witch had uttered a great truth and that Arthur’s life would be spared.

And so it was, the neighboring monarch granted Arthur his freedom and Lancelot and the witch had a wonderful wedding.

The honeymoon hour approached and Lancelot, steeling himself for a horrific experience, entered the bedroom. But, what a sight awaited him. The most beautiful woman he had ever seen lay before him on the bed. The astounded Lancelot asked what had happened

The beauty replied that since he had been so kind to her when she appeared as a witch, she would henceforth, be her horrible deformed self only half the time and the beautiful maiden the other half.

Which would he prefer? Beautiful during the day….or night?

Lancelot pondered the predicament. During the day, a beautiful woman to show off to his friends, but at night, in the privacy of his castle, an old witch? Or, would he prefer having a hideous witch during the day, but by night, a beautiful woman for him to enjoy wondrous intimate moments?

What would YOU do?

What Lancelot chose is below.
BUT….make YOUR choice before you scroll down below.
OKAY?

Noble Lancelot said that he would allow HER to make the choice herself.

Upon hearing this, she announced that she would be beautiful all the time because he had respected her enough to let her be in charge of her own life.

Now….what is the moral to this story?

Scroll down

The moral is…..
If you don’t let a woman have her own way….
Things are going to get ugly….
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September 25, 2010 2:52pm
Kris K

HarryGlicken 2:52 pm,

The moral is…..
If you don’t let a woman have her own way….
Things are going to get ugly….

While the above may be true for women (I actually think most women don’t even know what they want), perhaps the opposite is in fact true for Islam:

The moral is…..
If you DO let Islam have its own way….
Things ARE going to get ugly….
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September 25, 2010 3:02pm
bereal

Great story Harry.
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September 25, 2010 3:02pm

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Public Address
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Dan Moskovitz

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