General Debate 22 September 2010

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Nookin

Hello? Any one home?
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September 22, 2010 8:18am
Rodders

Will Chris Carter make a journey to Wellington to retain his $10 a day?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4152779/Chris-Carters-sick-leave-runs-out-today

Nah, he knows when he is onto a good thing.
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September 22, 2010 8:20am
MikeNZ

Did you see the footbridge that “collapsed under it’s own weight” connecting the village to the venue in Delhi on breakfast this morning?
What else is a man trap waiting to break?
I wouldn’t want to be the Insurer holding the policy for the Kiwi team to the commonwealth games that’s for sure.
Still that’s what Dave Curry is paid the big bucks for, to make the call to pull the plug or not.
Love to know the cost if we have too.
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September 22, 2010 8:21am
Lipo

Why is John Key so afraid of Roger Douglas?

Also thought John Key’s comments regarding whether New Zealand should go to the Commonwealth games lacked leadership

Comments were along the lines of – we will just follow what everyone else is doing
Why sit on the fence and just follow what everyone else does.
A good leader shows direction

How about making a statement like
a) Do not think it is wise to attend and NZ should not go, but it is up to individuals and the Games organisers to make their own decisions
or
b) All experts advise the attending the games is all go- etc, etc
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September 22, 2010 8:24am
Pete George

Independent electorates

Something picked up from Monday that had a resoundingly mediocre response, maybe this isn’t the best place for it but trying some more.

Interested in discussing the development of a framework for a people based party, where:
– independent electorate candidates are selected by the electorate, their primary aim is to represent the electorate, with an online blog/polling system to communicate with and guide/direct the candidate.
– the List is a multi member electorate topped with nationwide specialists (not electorate failures) from which the leader is chosen
– anyone, left or right, up or down, front or back, can participate

Aim to use the strengths of MMP to strengthen MMP, complementary to the main parties, establishing reliable support MPs. We don’t need an upper house, we need to activate and enable a lower house, the people. A bottom up democracy.

Initial goal: establish a framework to stand electorate candidates in 2011. The vacuum is there, waiting.

Longer term goal is 10, to encourage and establish a better political system that is run more by the people and responsive to and inclusive of the people beyond a 3 yearly vote.

Better informed, better represented.

Interested contact: peoplenz at gmail
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September 22, 2010 8:24am
MikeNZ

Hey how about this for a tour?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZNt8u8lFZY
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September 22, 2010 8:29am
Adolf Fiinkensein

Yesterday saw a remarkable and lengthy exchange on points of order relating to Q3 from from some little known short arse to the PM on ministerial judgment.

Opposition members were gleefully and prematurely congratulating themselves on a ‘win’ when Peter Dunne cleverly and successfully sowed enough seeds of doubt to persuade Mr Speaker to reserve his decision and give a considered ruling today.

Of note was an admonition to opposition members by Mr Speaker to ‘not push their luck’ as he was putting far more pressure on the PM than had any other speaker in recent times. A pretty clear reference to the partisan peg legged harridan who once occupied the chair.

You have to give credit to Lockwood though. While putting the PM under pressure to answer a potentially embarrassing question, he pretty much told John Key how to answer it and at the same time avoid any embarrassment.

A truly excellent Speaker.

I’ll be interested to hear the considered ruling today.
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September 22, 2010 8:30am
Nookin

As I type this, I realise that I might be asking an asinine question but it seems to me that all the controversy relating to members of Parliament have involved breaking “must not do” rules. Are there any rules that specify what they “must do” in terms of performance? Can an MP like Chris Carter sit in Parliament for the rest of the term reading Women’s Weekly and not actually achieve anything? Is there any sort of requirement to attend a minimum number of sessions, spend a minimum amount of time in the electorate or anything like that? Is the whole system based on the spurious supposition that somebody who wants to serve in Parliament has motivated by the desire to achieve something and that is the end of any performance standard? Maybe there is some force in the argument that we need a written constitution to which there is a degree of accountability
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September 22, 2010 8:30am
Pete George

Need an employment contract (with the people) Nookin, with a defined expectation of performance levels?
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September 22, 2010 8:33am
Rodders

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10674970

Re Roger Douglas, I attended a meeting two years ago where Roger Douglas was still talking about the parting of ways he had with David Lange twenty years before. Sir Roger is the same age as Jim Anderton and frankly, it is time they both accepted that they no longer represent this country’s political future.
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September 22, 2010 8:34am
peterwn

Lipo – John Key is not afraid of Roger Douglas. John’s concern is that some potential National voters would see a vote for National as a vote for Roger Douglas. People just do not want another round of Rogernomics.
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September 22, 2010 8:52am
joe90

Hey how about this for a tour?

You’d love that wouldn’t ya mad Micky, who knows, you might get lucky and get to see some of those evil Islamists shot. Hateful prick.

http://www.iajv.org/
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September 22, 2010 8:53am
MikeNZ

Maybe this is another reason Swedes and others are finally standing up to unrestricted immigration into their countries?
I’d love to know what the future costs are to their economies are expected to be?
Do we have this problem here albeit a much smaller number?

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-problem-of-inbreeding-in-islam/?singlepage=true

It is estimated that one third of all handicapped people in Copenhagen have a foreign background. Sixty four percent of school children in Denmark with Arabic parents are illiterate after 10 years in the Danish school system. The same study concludes that in reading ability, mathematics, and science, the pattern is the same: “The bilingual (largely Muslim) immigrants’ skills are exceedingly poor compared to their Danish classmates.”

These problems within Islam bring many detriments to Western countries. Expenses related to mentally and physically handicapped Muslim immigrants, for instance, severely drain the budgets and resources of our societies. Look at Denmark, for example: one third of the budget for the country’s schools is spent on children with special needs. Muslim children are grossly overrepresented among these children. More than half of all children in schools for children with mental and physical handicaps in Copenhagen are foreigners — of whom Muslims are by far the largest group. One study concludes that “foreigners inbreeding costs our municipalities millions” because of the many handicapped children and adults.

What must our role be as a humanitarian society to this rising crisis? We know that the greatest concern among pregnant women and their husbands is for their child to be healthy. It is not difficult to imagine the sorrow and stress among interrelated couples who are forced to marry and pressured to have children. Is it not our duty to fight for the rights of these human beings subjected to such barbaric and inhuman predicaments?
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September 22, 2010 8:57am
Nookin

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4153945/Missiles-thrown-in-200km-teen-pursuit
In light of the growing movement against police chases I offer the following alternatives that could have been adopted by the police in this case:
1. Go home and watch telly. After all, they were only speeding and littering and as these are revenue gathering offences only, why bother?
2. A group hug of the police officers concerned commiserating on the fact that the teenagers must have had a disturbed upbringing and were put off by the death of their pet hamster.
3. D9 parked around a blind corner.
4. Chase them, stop them, take away their vehicles permanently, trespass them from any alcohol outlets if alcohol was involved, make them walk back the entire route picking up everything that they threw out the window, ban them from driving for a minimum of five years and recover the entire costs of the police chase by increasing their tax rate by a sufficient margin, do not suppress the names – better still put their photograph in the paper pointing out that they are homicidal drivers.
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September 22, 2010 9:12am
joe90

Nice people those democrats, rape genes, self inflicted swastika wounds and a history of the party with a translation here.
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September 22, 2010 9:16am
starboard

Sir Barry Curtis put $100,000 of spending on his council credit card in his final term as Manukau City Mayor.

Expenses for the former mayor, who is standing for a seat on the Auckland Council, included $31,938 on entertainment and hospitality, $44,004 on travel and accommodation and $10,683 on the mayoral vehicle.

He also spent $13,230 on other expenses, such as death and other newspaper notices, flowers, suit hire and dry cleaning

…” oink oink oink ” …
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September 22, 2010 9:52am
Viking2

Its easy to be nice with other peoples money. Ask any politician.
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September 22, 2010 10:21am
Viking2

So it seems that its now official. The National Party no longer want to catch up with Australia. But then they never did.
They just want the trough at the centre rather than the left end and don’t have long enough legs to reach the right end.
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September 22, 2010 10:23am
MikeNZ

Nice Viking
Thank God they don’t have links to these people or else we’d be being shamed into giving away more of our money too.
http://biggovernment.com/amarcus/2010/06/15/the-progressive-jihad-against-israel/
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September 22, 2010 10:36am
Inventory2

@ starboard – so Bernard Orsman faithfully runs David Lewis’ defence for Len Brown – “he wasn’t as bad as the last mayor”; that’s bullshit. Brown STILL hasn’t told Manukau ratepayers who they paid for to dine with him at Volare last year, which is in direct contravention of the Manukau Council’s policy. Why isn’t Orsman complaining about that? Could it be that he is a Brown toady?
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September 22, 2010 10:59am
MikeNZ

where’s these weapons, money and drugs reported yesterday here on Kiwiblog that were found in Manaukau?
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September 22, 2010 11:01am
wreck1080

@rodders :

Roger Douglas saved New Zealand from bankruptcy. That is a fact. No one would argue. Roger Douglas’s policies are just as relevant today.

Ask yourself, why has no government reversed his changes?

If National/Labour have such great policies, then, why does NZ continue to slide down the economic ladder? It really does not look good for NZ. No government has been able to stop the economic decline of the last 50 years.

Surely, the old guard have had their turn. We need fresh policies – give Roger a turn. He rescued us once, give him another turn.

NZ is heading in a bad direction. Wages in Australia will soon be DOUBLE!! There are mass doctor shortages because we cannot afford to keep them. Our teachers are striking because we cannot afford to pay them global averages. Same applies to Radiographers.

The prices of NZ produced food are such they are becoming unaffordable to large numbers of NZ residents. eg, when was the last time you looked at NZ Eye fillet, and decided $45/kg was too much. Or , NZ snapper, or premium lamb. Foreigners can afford it, not us.
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September 22, 2010 11:09am
Rodders

@wreck1080:

re Sir Roger, I don’t believe that a souffle can rise twice.
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September 22, 2010 11:15am
Tauhei Notts

Today is our 22nd wet day this month.
in the words of Creedence Clearwater Revival;
“Who’ll stop the rain”
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September 22, 2010 11:17am
joe90

where’s these weapons, money and drugs reported yesterday here on Kiwiblog that were found in Manaukau?

A keeper Micky, can ya guess which folder it’s going in?.
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September 22, 2010 11:31am
MikeNZ

No, But then I always take Kiwiblog posters as rational honest and thought provoking people, don’t you?
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September 22, 2010 11:33am
joe90

Parody Mike, parody and who bought it.
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September 22, 2010 11:37am
MikeNZ

me me me! 🙂
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September 22, 2010 11:38am
joe90

Actually Mike, at first glance I thought it was connected with this report but the Len Brown reference soon gave it away.

btw, Antony Loewenstein has a bit to say about the middle east and if you’ve got the time this interview is worth a listen.
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September 22, 2010 11:53am
Jack5

Don Elder, of state-owned Solid Energy, has weighed in behind Brownlee in the pipe dreams of sea-floor methane hydrates having the potential to make NZ as rich as Saudi Arabia. Here’s the nub of what he told the Petroleum Conference, according to the Stuff site:

If all New Zealand’s coal and methane hydrate resources were capable of being exploited, they could be worth a total of between $5 trillion and $20t, he suggested.

How can you extrapolate from crystals on the sea floor to their market worth decades ahead? The big industrial countries have their own deposits. One report suggests 1 per cent of the methane hydrate deposits in the United States would more than double that countrye’s natural gas reserves. What would NZ do with the gas? Liquefy it at low temperatures and ship it to consumer countries with either their own deposits or others nearby? How would this be economic?

How to extract the methane from the sea floor hydrates has yet to be solved. The hydrates are stable under the pressure level at the ocean floor and the low temperature. Raise these crystals and they turn into gas.

At this stage hydrates are economic moon dust.
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September 22, 2010 11:54am
joe90

Not to be confused with the real economic moon dust Jack5.
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September 22, 2010 12:01pm
Kris K

MikeNZ 8:21 am,

Did you see the footbridge that “collapsed under it’s own weight” connecting the village to the venue in Delhi on breakfast this morning?

If the possible terrorist activity doesn’t pose sufficient threat to our, and other, commonwealth athletes who travel to India for the games, then surely the non-existent or substandard building and engineering codes are more than adequate concern in their own right.

And that’s assuming the games complex is even ready on time.

I really do wonder why people bother travelling to places which have not only sub standard building regulations, but also pose a significant threat due to Islamic terrorist activity; and especially that directed against Westerners. I mean talk about a target on your back – these games are just asking for it. What self respecting Jihadist will be able to pass up this opportunity?
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September 22, 2010 12:16pm
tom hunter

One of the basic aspects of the political game is spin control, one of the most basic rules of spin control is to avoid talking about things that are a negative for your candidate or party, and the best way to do that is to constantly raise other topics and keep the focus on them.

So in the US the Democrats are desperate to talk about something, anything, other than Obamacare, Cap and Trade, the Stimulus – in fact virtually everything they’ve done in the last couple of years is to be avoided because it’s politically toxic.

What they apparently want to talk about are “issues” like gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, anything that can used as a weapon in the so-called culture wars. It works better if you can somehow raise these issues constantly, while at the same time pushing the idea that it’s actually your opponents who are fixated on them.

I think this works from a broader ideological angle to. I could not help but chuckle about this as I watched several of the usual left-wing Kiwiblog trolls hammer away on Christine O’Donnell yesterday. No discussion of her venal and dingbattish opponent at all and little or no discussion of all the other Senate races where the GOP (including several so-called Tea-Partiers) is either on target to win or showing very strongly in traditional Democrat strongholds.

Herewith the following:

It would seem that all this is not just the rejection of the Democrat Party’s control, but of left-wing policies as well. There’s no evidence that people are simply voting GOP in the same way they might vote National here – that National will run things more competently. They’re voting directly against the policies listed above.

I doubt that these messages will translate, unlike so many others that have, from the US to here, but perhaps it’s just a matter of time as the institutions so lovingly crafted here simply run out of money.
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September 22, 2010 12:29pm
joana

MikeNZ,
Inbreeding is a problem in the UK and in Aussie..Sydney’s Auburn hospital..this was the scene of a muslim riot awhile back
In NZ ,the Sunday programme covered child brides , young girls being taken out of school to ”marry” old imported men..this whole thing was swept under the carpet. You can’t tell me that these children are doing a good job of looking after their children..but then muslim immigration greatly increases the need for social workers everywhere.
I think it would be very difficult to get figures on damaged children in NZ given how totally PC organizations like IHC are.
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September 22, 2010 12:31pm
Kris K

MikeNZ 8:57 am,

Maybe this is another reason Swedes and others are finally standing up to unrestricted immigration into their countries?
I’d love to know what the future costs are to their economies are expected to be?
Do we have this problem here albeit a much smaller number?

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-problem-of-inbreeding-in-islam/?singlepage=true

Good article, Mike.
The likely health costs to host nations due to inbreeding within Muslim groups is something that I’m sure many haven’t even considered. If we’re going to accept immigrants/refugees who come from cultures which practice inbreeding, then, perhaps we need to remind them of the laws of our land(s). I’m pretty sure the closest blood relation you can marry in the West is generally first cousins – although even this is frowned upon, and is illegal in some Western countries I believe.

If immigrants/refugees are in this situation then perhaps the marriages should be dissolved (as they’re illegal here). But I don’t know what you do if a Muslim male only has one ‘official’ wife, but has other non official wives who are also producing children. Remember, Mulsim men can have up to four wives under Sharia.
As we continue to allow essentially uncontrolled Islamic immigration, I can see this Muslim inbreeding becoming a problem here, too, just as it is/has in Sweden.
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September 22, 2010 12:35pm
joe90

Lucky GWBs offer to accept 100,000 Palestinian Refugees wasn’t taken up then KK.
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September 22, 2010 12:41pm
Pete George

Tom: There’s no evidence that people are simply voting GOP

There’s some evidence that suggests the GOP is viewed less favourably than the Dems, and there are suggestions that people are mostly anti-government in general, so they will more likely vote any way that will weaken government. The economy is a major factor too, when it’s down the incumbent usually goes down. And of course Obama hasn’t helped his cause.
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September 22, 2010 12:43pm
Redbaiter

“I doubt that these messages will translate, unlike so many others that have, from the US to here, but perhaps it’s just a matter of time as the institutions so lovingly crafted here simply run out of money.”

..and when that happens, we can write it off to the left voting battery hens and their incredible gullibility in being so easily led by the association of Marxist propagandists that is the mainstream media.
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September 22, 2010 12:51pm
Kris K

Hate Crimes, Thought Crimes – call it what you will.
It’s alraedy well established in the UK, and other European countries, and one wonders exacly how long it will be before something similar raises its head here in New Zealand? I fear it’s not far off, perhaps it’s already here …

The following article highlights whats happening in the UK in this regard, where to hold even certain views is increasingly being regarded as a crime.

I think, therefore I’m guilty

Everyone can agree that today’s Britain — which we’re always being told has become so much more liberal — is the very model of a forward-looking, tolerant society in which freedom of expression is paramount. Correct?

If only. In fact, the intellectual trend in Britain is a remorseless slide towards a dark age of intolerance, reverting to a reason-suppressing, heresy-hunting culture in which certain opinions are being turned into thought crimes.

Astoundingly, people are being arrested by the police — even if the case against them eventually falls — because of what they have said. They are not inciting violence or any criminal activity. They are merely expressing a point of view. Yet for that they may find the police feeling their collars.

It is difficult to say when, exactly, the priorities of the British police shifted from the prevention of criminal offences towards criminalising people for causing offence. The police have become the thin blue line against the Wrong Opinion. Instead of protecting society against oppression, British police officers have become the agents of oppression.

Freedom of religious expression, for example, is a bedrock principle of an open society. Yet if Christians express their religious opposition to homosexuality, they are treated like criminals.

Dale McAlpine, a Christian preacher in Cumbria, was carted off by the police, locked in a cell for seven hours and charged with using abusive or insulting words or behaviour after telling a passer-by that he believed homosexuality was a crime against God. […]

Such Christians are far from alone in finding that certain opinions are now forbidden. Across public life — in academic, legal, governmental, scientific and media circles and beyond — an atmosphere is being engendered which is inimical to independent thought.

And this is often amplified to incendiary levels through the electronic lynch-mob of the internet. Writers who bust the boundaries of permitted thinking may become the target of frenzied denunciation by a global army of haters whipping up a campaign for the dissident to be boycotted, banned or sacked. […]

Offending such groups has become a hanging offence — and that includes protesting against this very phenomenon.
It took Robin Page, chairman of the Countryside Restoration Trust, some five years to clear his name after he was arrested for remarking at a 2002 rally against the government’s anti-hunting laws: ‘If you are a black vegetarian Muslim asylum-seeking one-legged lesbian lorry driver, I want the same rights as you.’

To enforce the dogma of thought crime, language has been hijacked and turned inside out. Dissent has been relabelled as either hatred or insanity. Those who disagree with current orthodoxies are therefore deemed to be either bad or mad.

These modern heretics are demonised as Europhobes, homophobes, xenophobes or Islamophobes. They can therefore safely be purged from all positions of influence and their ideas trashed without any discussion. […]

In similar vein, the rational anxieties of millions about mass immigration or militant Islam destroying the culture of the country are held merely to demonstrate that ordinary people are racist bigots or Islamophobes.

The great gift bequeathed to us by the 18th-century Enlightenment is the freedom to disagree. This is now in eclipse. The intelligentsia — the supposed custodians of reason and intellectual freedom — has turned itself into an inquisition, complete with an index of prohibited ideas.

Nowhere is this more starkly displayed than in the hounding of scientists and others who question man-made global warming theory.

Such sceptics are vilified, smeared, denied funding and even — according to the renowned meteorologist and IPCC reviewer Professor Richard Lindzen — intimidated into telling lies to shore up the theory.

Assertions wholly inimical to science, such as ‘the argument is over’ or that global warming is the belief of a scientific ‘consensus’ — the claim once used by the medieval church to stifle Galileo — are deployed to ensure the argument is over before it can begin. […]

‘Politically correct’ views all derive from anti-Western, secular ideologies such as anti-capitalism, anti-imperialism, utilitarianism, feminism, multiculturalism and environmentalism. These all share the aim of overturning the established order in the West. […]

This obsession with power is, of course, a Marxist position; indeed, ‘political correctness’ is a form of cultural Marxism. But how has good old empirical, pragmatic, anti-ideological Britain succumbed to such extremism? [continues]

Well worth reading the whole article.
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September 22, 2010 1:04pm
nickb

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4155424/Guilty-plea-in-elderly-woman-assault-case

bring back old sparky…
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September 22, 2010 1:27pm
joana

We already have hate crimes legislation courtesy of that English poof in the labour Govt. I cannot recall his name but he left here to go overseas somewhere to another U.N. job. People get extra jail time if a lawyer can convince a judge that race was somehow connected to the crime..Think the sentence a guy got for killing a young Korean man on the West Coast.
I think free speech is already very muffled.
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September 22, 2010 1:32pm
joana

Political correctness was the brain child of a Spanish socialist..Gramski. It was exported to the US to one particular Uni..Columba I think and then sent around the world.
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September 22, 2010 1:34pm
tom hunter

….we can write it off to the left voting battery hens and their incredible gullibility in being so easily led by the association of Marxist propagandists that is the mainstream media.

On the former point the key to remember is that people have to want to be gullible. Getting something for “free” (healthcare, education, pension, etc) and which is no better or worse than what anybody else gets, is a powerful hold to have over a person. Anything that threatens it will be rejected. So I don’t expect the GOP to tackle the nightmare of Social Security or Medicare even if they have overwhelming majorities in the Senate, Congress and the Presidency. Those things will have to break in front of people’s eyes before anything is done I fear.

On the latter point you can (if you can bear it) listen to the following two pieces of audio, both being “reports” from the US Correspondent who talks to Kathryn Ryan every Tuesday.
Jack Hitt – 14 Sep

Luiza Savage-21 Sep

Yes. This is the product of the supposedly high-quality National Radio, hosted by a journalist supposedly superior to your average Talk-Show host.

The coverage of both of the main topics of these two pieces – in Hitt’s case the upcoming January tax increases and the sad attempts by Obama to demonise John Bohner (who?), in Savage’s case the O’Donnell election and it’s implications – have been reported in far superior fashion by the blogosphere.

Why bother listening to this when one can simply jump straight on to Talking Points Memo. But of course that is the point – one will not get the talking points of Hot Air from Radio NZ. That would not be fair and balanced.
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September 22, 2010 1:37pm
Rex Widerstrom

MikeE:

I hadn’t realised it had gotten anywhere near that bad in the UK. We need to be very vigilant, then, to stop that spreading as far in NZ. There’s a vast difference between someone saying “kill all homosexuals” and another saying “homosexuality is a crime against God”. I don’t believe either statement, but I’d defend absolutely the right of the second person to say it. I think most reasonable people would share a similar view.

It’s not necessarily the liegislation that’s at fault. It’s often designed to prevent the first sort of speech but is misused by the authorities to prevent the second sort.

The answer, I think, lies (as it does with so many things) with proper measures of accountability.
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September 22, 2010 2:10pm
RightNow

“Just over a year ago, Delhi’s Chief Minister, the unfortunately named Sheila Dikshit, appealed to the rest of India to help “civilise Delhiites” in time for the games.”

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/commonwealth-games/4155549/Indian-media-outraged-over-Games
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September 22, 2010 2:21pm
Redbaiter

“I hadn’t realised it had gotten anywhere near that bad in the UK.”

That is the tip of the iceberg Rex. There are so many things you “don’t realise”. Two guys were just arrested there for watching a video (in a pub) of a Koran being burnt.
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September 22, 2010 2:22pm
MyNameIsJack

Rex Widerstrom (3,394) Says:

September 22nd, 2010 at 2:10 pm
MikeE:

I hadn’t realised it had gotten anywhere near that bad in the UK. We need to be very vigilant, then, to stop that spreading as far in NZ. There’s a vast difference between someone saying “kill all homosexuals” and another saying “homosexuality is a crime against God”. I don’t believe either statement, but I’d defend absolutely the right of the second person to say it. I think most reasonable people would share a similar view.

Then why not also defend absolutely the right of the first person?

The real problem is that “kill all homosexuals” is the direct result of “homosexuality is a crime against God” and until we can educate the god out of the masses, to have people value each other for their humanity, not their gods, there will always be those who don’t just want to say “kill all homosexuals”.
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September 22, 2010 2:29pm
Nookin

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/4155456/Boy-racer-to-serve-prison-sentence

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!
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September 22, 2010 2:29pm
Kris K

MyNameIsLegion (for we are many) 2:29 pm,

The real problem is that “kill all homosexuals” is the direct result of “homosexuality is a crime against God” and until we can educate the god out of the masses, to have people value each other for their humanity, not their gods, there will always be those who don’t just want to say “kill all homosexuals”.

An interesting leap in ‘logic’ there, Legion.
No doubt you would also ‘leap’ to the conclusion that anyone who thought homosexuality was wrong FOR ANY OTHER REASON would ALSO naturally want to kill all homosexuals.

Much as you would, no doubt, accuse anyone who thought that theft was wrong was actually implying that all thieves should be put to death. What a strange world you live in …

The only good anarchist is a dead anarchist, eh Legion?
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September 22, 2010 2:49pm
graham

@MyNameIsJack:

‘The real problem is that “kill all homosexuals” is the direct result of “homosexuality is a crime against God”‘

Ummm, no it isn’t. There are people who will say “kill all homosexuals” who have no belief in God, they just hate homosexuals; and I would think the majority of people who might say “homosexuality is a crime against God” will definitely NOT say that hence you should kill all homosexuals.

I think when Rex said “most reasonable people would share a similar view” (that it should be okay to say “homosexuality is a crime against God” but not okay to say “kill all homosexuals”), he pretty much got your number. Obviously, you’re not reasonable.
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September 22, 2010 2:51pm
MT_Tinman

Rex Widerstrom (3,394) Says:
September 22nd, 2010 at 2:10 pm
There’s a vast difference between someone saying “kill all homosexuals” and another saying “homosexuality is a crime against God”. I don’t believe either statement,

How can you not believe the second statement?

People who have created their god can ascribe whatever attributes they like to him making the statement automatically true.

I also do not understand this new-fangled sanctity of life thing which has crept in over the last fifty years or so and which I am guessing is the reason for your abhorrence of the first statement (unless of course you mean we should only kill useless homosexuals such as those not female, attractive and on free porn sites 😉 ).
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September 22, 2010 3:16pm
mawm

Change of subject!

Key and Hide gave hapless Goff a caning today during question time. It was a pleasure to watch labour’s past catch up with them ….. and hopefully will stop their tiresome attempts to blame Key for Garrett’s youthful ‘cloak and daggers’ escapade.

I particularly liked the offer by Key to ACT to let them have some of their supplementaries to enable them to cover all the examples of unministerial behaviour by the last government’s Ministers.
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September 22, 2010 3:20pm
MikeNZ

Kris K
very very good point.

I don’t agree that Homosexuality is normal both from the mean (stats) but also by design.
It is a behaviour (and was thought so until 1970s and the homo activists turned the APA) so would I support Kill all homosexuals?
NO (Never), of course not!

Neither would I support Kill all (put your own label here)
However, when it comes to predatory paedophiles I have a little angst.
Because they are predatory and won’t give up nor accept that they are evil towards children.
I do think they should be locked up until they die, for the protection of our kids.

I’m not sure that I am in the minority here, what do you think?
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September 22, 2010 3:31pm
Rex Widerstrom

MyNameIsJack asks:

Then why not also defend absolutely the right of the first person?

For the same reaons that, despite the fact you’re a topic-derailing nuisance akin to a child who, ignored when the adults are talking, tries flinging its own faeces around to attract attention, I’d also support action being taken against someone who suggested uncovering your identity and killing you. OTOH someone who said “MNIJ’s comments are a crime against logic” would have my full support.

Meanwhile MT_Tinman points out:

People who have created their god can ascribe whatever attributes they like to him making the statement automatically true.

Ah now that is logical. Point taken… but don’t you have to believe the entity exists before you accept it is, in fact, offended? For instance if I were to say “being a socialist is a crime against Cthulhu”, wouldn’t your acceptance of the truth of that statement be predicated upon your acceptance of the existence of said pulpy, tentacled, scaly, winged creature?

Surely accuracy demands we say “homsexuality is a crime against the belief system constructed by God botherers” – a statement with which I could not help but agree 😀
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September 22, 2010 3:32pm
MikeNZ

joe90 (173) Says:
September 22nd, 2010 at 11:53 am

Thanks for the link Joe90
perhaps you’ve read this http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/upload/wysiwyg/article%20pdfs/Shariah%20-%20The%20Threat%20to%20America%20%28Team%20B%20Report%29%2009142010.pdf

It’s only 177 Pages but makes compelling reading as threaded in this is the Playbook of Dawa as it is known to Islamists.

This was a great link yesterday from someone http://alphadesigner.com/project-mapping-stereotypes.html.
Love to see one from the Middle East from the different countries perspectives.
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September 22, 2010 3:36pm
Rex Widerstrom

Redbaiter says:

Two guys were just arrested there for watching a video (in a pub) of a Koran being burnt.

Civil liberties lawyers must be having a field day over there! I’m busy constructing a case around laws banning smoking from just about everywhere (despite being a lifelong non-smoker and abhorring the practice) but it’s hard defending something so obviously bad for the person whose right it is to harm themselves (while not harming others).

Those two guys were, however, clearly doing nothing wrong. There’s a vast difference between sitting looking at something that’s being shown to you (or which you’ve obtained for free) and encouraging the further production of such material (not that I’m advocating a ban on Koran-burning, but I mean that in a case such as watching news footage of an IED or going on the internet to view those horrific beheading videos).

Do you have some links / references, Red? I’d be interested in seeing how that case pans out… might even try and find the addresses made by the prosecution and defence barristers.
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September 22, 2010 3:45pm
tom hunter

OTOH someone who said “MNIJ’s comments are a crime against logic” would have my full support.

Oooo…. To paraphrase the Baby Eating Bishop of Bath and Wells – “commentating with a smile and a stab”.
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September 22, 2010 4:14pm
RightNow

I would have thought, after all Labour’s shouting about keeping profits in NZ, that they’d lead by example. But no, their Open Labour wiki is hosted in Houston, Texas.
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September 22, 2010 4:26pm
Kris K

MikeNZ 3:31 pm,

However, when it comes to predatory paedophiles I have a little angst.
Because they are predatory and won’t give up nor accept that they are evil towards children.
I do think they should be locked up until they die, for the protection of our kids.

I’m not sure that I am in the minority here, what do you think?

Yep, predatory paedophiles are definitely at the bottom of the food chain as far as sexual deviants go.
Locking them up for life would seem to be the only option given society’s abhorence of the death penalty. Of course if we did that the Roman Catholic church hierachy may diminish by several orders of magnitudes …
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September 22, 2010 4:43pm
RightNow

Mass whale stranding http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10675377
“Seventy-four whales are stranded across two kilometres on the remote beach north of Kaitaia.

So far nine have been successfully refloated. ”

They’re trying to evolve, I wish those do-gooders would stop pushing them back in the water
(paraphrased from someone else, somewhere else, some time ago)
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September 22, 2010 4:55pm
Kris K

RightNow 4:55 pm,

Mass whale stranding …

They’re trying to evolve, I wish those do-gooders would stop pushing them back in the water

They’re obviously creationists, and this is their way of protesting against evolutionary development …
Do those they fail to refloat grow legs and subsequently move inland to take up a more pastoral lifestyle? – I bet the local farmers are up in arms about the additional competition to their grazing stock.
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September 22, 2010 5:19pm
mattyroo

I just heard that stupid fuckin walrus Sainsbury on the radio, advertising his tonight’s show. He states that those apathetic about climate change may well find themselves over their head. I assume he is alluding to rising sea levels…

Here’s hoping the walrus and the rest of the frauds pushing the climate change scam are the first to wake-up poisoned by increasing CO2 levels.
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September 22, 2010 5:24pm
Pete George

When I heard about an explosion in Tauranga yesterday I wondered if the revolution had started.

Explosion in Tauranga city

Police has blamed a smoker in the toilet for an explosion in a central city shopping block that blew out the door and sent pieces of wood and glass flying 10 metres.

Police initially thought a homemade bomb attack was behind the blast but later revealed they believed it was an accident caused by a staff member smoking in the toilets at the back of the shops, which house a number of businesses.

Instead it just left a sly smoker Redfaced.
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September 22, 2010 6:26pm
MyNameIsJack

Don’t you mean it left a Sly Poster redbaited?
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September 22, 2010 6:33pm
dad4justice

“Sly Poster redbaited”

This foaming dribble from a dreadful fugley cake and rotten borker stew. Paul get a life you 100 demerit type creep.
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September 22, 2010 6:42pm
MyNameIsJack

Aren’t you supposed to be under a bridge?
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September 22, 2010 6:57pm
dad4justice

paul P -are you big bruv as well? No wonder I struggle with Farrar’s demerit system! You creeps can’t keep the same name on the net eh paul ####!
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September 22, 2010 7:02pm
MyNameIsJack

d4j, ever notice the initials of Kiwi Blog? significant? Work out KB, and you work out my identity.

Now, run away until you’ve got soemthing intelligent to add, probably your dying words… NAH, even they’d be bat shit boring.
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September 22, 2010 7:06pm
dad4justice

You make me sick you cowardly creep!
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September 22, 2010 7:08pm
RightNow

Kris K “Do those they fail to refloat grow legs and subsequently move inland to take up a more pastoral lifestyle?”

all I’m saying is … they walk among us. In a waddly sort of way.
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September 22, 2010 7:13pm
dad4justice

What happened to big bruv Paul?
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September 22, 2010 7:17pm
Viking2

Somehow it seems that this is our,(my,Your and everyone else’s), problem

Ms Tautari said some teenagers were borrowing money to buy cars.

“One had a window smashed but couldn’t afford to get it fixed. They are driving around with no registration or warrant because they can’t afford to get things fixed,” she said.

She said the 35-year-old grandmother was paying off three cars even though two had been repossessed because she could not meet the payments on them.

“When you look in her cupboards, she’s got nothing.”

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/personal-finance/news/article.cfm?c_id=12&objectid=10674958
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September 22, 2010 7:33pm
Pete George

Private debt is a huge problem, much more than government debt. People getting sucked into personal loans, credit cards etc, property, student loans.

Some people only know debt in their adult lives.
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September 22, 2010 7:41pm
krazykiwi

Pete – Personal debt is something I look after. Government debt is something the todays government leaves for my kids. It’s all bad. On that, I note that UK public debt is now a record £823bn and the UK government spends £5 for every £4 is raises is tax. Ouch!
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September 22, 2010 7:46pm
MyNameIsJack

And kiwis spend $115 for every $100 they earn. And it has to be so, and will need to be more so as taxes are reduced from income and piled on to consumption. The government needs us to keep spending to keep up its tax take.

It is well beyond time NZ had a capital gains tax.
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September 22, 2010 7:49pm
krazykiwi

The government needs us to keep spending to keep up its tax take.

Hey something I agree with MyNameIsPaul on. Easy credit and consumption taxes create an environment where the financially illiterate are encouraged to become hopelessly trapped. Instead we need a tax regime that encourages productivity and discourages consumption.
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September 22, 2010 8:01pm
Viking2

Have a read of this then. It will ring a few bells and make you wonder about what’s next.

Ask Not Whether Governments Will Default, but How

By Arnuad Mares

September 20, 2010

This is the first issue of Sovereign Subjects, a new Morgan Stanley publication focusing on sovereign risk in advanced economies. In this first installment, we take a broad perspective on government balance sheets and raise several themes to which we will return in more depth in subsequent issues. We encourage clients to provide us with feedback on this new publication.

Debt/GDP ratios are too backward-looking and considerably underestimate the fiscal challenge faced by dvanced economies’ governments. On the basis of current policies, most governments are deep in negative equity.

This means governments will impose a loss on some of their stakeholders, in our view. The question is not whether they will renege on their promises, but rather upon which of their promises they will renege, and what form this default will take.

http://www.investorsinsight.com/blogs/john_mauldins_outside_the_box/archive/2010/09/20/sovereign-subjects-ask-not-whether-governments-will-default-but-how.aspx
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September 22, 2010 8:13pm
Viking2

Strong support for Redbaiter.

Left-wingers’ sound and fury signify nothing

* Janet Albrechtsen
* From: The Australian
* September 22, 2010 12:00AM
* 87 comments

THE Australian is relentlessly under attack from miffed media progressives.

LIKE taking a drag on a post-coital cigarette, after each election in recent years the political Left has a habit of letting off some steam after the big event. They reach for their keyboards or grab a microphone to take a swipe at the media. Make that the media with which they vehemently disagree.

After the 2007 election, progressives within the media were calling for a “cleansing” of conservatives from News Limited newspapers under the ruse that such voices were no longer required in the new left-wing era under Labor and Kevin Rudd.

It made for an amusing misread of politics: Rudd campaigned as a conservative. And a hypocritical one: there was no similar call for a purging of left-wing voices when John Howard was elected in 1996. Not to mention disingenuous: the same group complaining about a stifling of dissent during the Howard years wanted to stifle dissent in 2007.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/left-wingers-sound-and-fury-signify-nothing/story-e6frg6zo-1225927531414
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September 22, 2010 9:58pm
Viking2

Rudd in Heaven
http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2010/09/21/1225927/522563-nicholson-exile-major.jpg
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September 22, 2010 10:00pm
Pete George

Strong support for Redbaiter.
Left-wingers’ sound and fury signify nothing

THE Australian is relentlessly under attack from miffed media progressives.

I don’t think Redbaiter needs any support for his relentlessly furious attacks on the media. Signifying nothing. If it weren’t so over the top it might sound like something.

Re Rudd, sending a problematic politician off to Foreign seems to be a standard tactic, reminds me of WP.
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September 23, 2010 6:21am

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